Warhammer & 40K RPGs Thread III: With Friends Like These, Who Needs Heresies?

[comicshorse]

The Raven Guard, while depleted, had no such weakness and they were able to found successors at a "normal" rate. Although there is some disparity in how they did that, as after Istvaan V they were said to have only 3,000 Astartes left, but somehow managed to remain as a Chapter AND to have at least 3 confirmed Second Founding successors, with one unconfirmed, only 7 years later.

I thought that was due to them being gifted the secrets of creating new Marines quickly by the Emperor and actually using it successfully for a bit before the Alpha Legion spies messed up the process as in 'Deliverance Lost'

[Wraith]

I thought that was due to them being gifted the secrets of creating new Marines quickly by the Emperor and actually using it successfully for a bit before the Alpha Legion spies messed up the process as in 'Deliverance Lost'

I think that is supposed to be the official version, however its still quite poorly added up.

After the Istvaan V massacre, there were 3,000 Raven Guard. After the Alpha Legion successfully sabotaged the implantation process and the afflicted Astartes began to mutate, Corax still led them into battle a few times such as at the assault of the Perfect Fortress and the Battle of Yarant.
During these assaults, the Raven Guard at full strength still only numbered ~4,000 Astartes, a number which included the mutants (who were culled before the Second Founding) and not including casualties between then and the Siege of Terra.

So that's 4,000 Astartes; then minus the mutants, minus further casualties, then made into at least four Chapters of 1,000 Marines; the Raven Guard, the Black Guard, the Raptors, the Revilers and (allegedly) the Carcharadons Astra.

[noob]

I think that is supposed to be the official version, however its still quite poorly added up.

After the Istvaan V massacre, there were 3,000 Raven Guard. After the Alpha Legion successfully sabotaged the implantation process and the afflicted Astartes began to mutate, Corax still led them into battle a few times such as at the assault of the Perfect Fortress and the Battle of Yarant.
During these assaults, the Raven Guard at full strength still only numbered ~4,000 Astartes, a number which included the mutants (who were culled before the Second Founding) and not including casualties between then and the Siege of Terra.

So that's 4,000 Astartes; then minus the mutants, minus further casualties, then made into at least four Chapters of 1,000 Marines; the Raven Guard, the Black Guard, the Raptors, the Revilers and (allegedly) the Carcharadons Astra.

Maybe there is only 3 or four marines left in in the raven guard and then they just give big suits to regular people and nobody inspects too close and guess the truth.(the people closest to the front on all the photos and in all the interviews are the space marines and the people here so that people still thinks there is many raven guard are positioned well or "they are on duty" and so on)

[lightningcat]

For what it's worth, Inferno says there were about 75,000 Space Wolves at the Burning of Prospero and 20-25,000 who weren't able to join in.

The Ultramarines book says they had 200,000 at Calth alone.

Your cited referance beats my memory.

The Canix Helix is a mutation - it's unstable and due to ten thousand years of 'natural selection' it now only works on humans from Fenris, who are the descendants of colonists who underwent gene-therapy in order to better survive on a Death World.

Back in M31 it wasn't such a big deal - the mutation hadn't yet set in or developed. In M41 it makes a huge difference; it's why the Space Wolves can only recruit from one world, and why all of their successor Chapters (who CAN'T recruit from that world) have failed and become extinct.

The only successor chapter I am aware of was the Wolf Brothers, which was created in M31, although it didn't seem like part of the official 2nd Founding. Who would have thought that Leman Russ would ignore Guilliman's instruction? Although the Terran-born Space Wolves didn't have any extra problems, at least not any mentioned in anything I've read, and they wouldn't have any Fenis genetics. Of course they did have the attention of a competent geneticist watching them (big E). There was a second unnamed successor chapter mentioned in older sources created along with the Wolf Brothrs, but it is now non-canon.
I am not current on any primarus successor chapters for any of the Primarchs, so there could be dozens of Space Wolf and Salamander primarus successors and I would not know about them.


I am now realizing that I may be thinking about these questions significantly more then GW ever did. 😦

[Wraith]

Maybe there is only 3 or four marines left in in the raven guard and then they just give big suits to regular people and nobody inspects too close and guess the truth.(the people closest to the front on all the photos and in all the interviews are the space marines and the people here so that people still thinks there is many raven guard are positioned well or "they are on duty" and so on)

Turns out, the Raven Guard just has 4,000 members and all of them have 3 different suits of armour in their closet. Every day, they check the rota and find out which colours they should be wearing, to keep up the illusion that there are 4 distinct Chapters in operation.

...I mean, when I started typing that I thought it was a joke, but something like that is entirely within the Raven Guard's mentality of obfuscation, AND it's already been done by other Chapters like the Imperial Fists and the Dark Angels, so....

The only successor chapter I am aware of was the Wolf Brothers, which was created in M31, although it didn't seem like part of the official 2nd Founding. Who would have thought that Leman Russ would ignore Guilliman's instruction?

Weird, I always remembered the Wolf Brothers as coming a lot later. Oh well - that kind of suggests that we're both right? The Canis Helix can be maintained, but only by someone as skilled as the Emperor; once he's out of the picture, it all goes to hell and no one knows how to make it work.

I am not current on any primarus successor chapters for any of the Primarchs, so there could be dozens of Space Wolf and Salamander primarus successors and I would not know about them.

The Space Wolves themselves were heavily rebuilt from Primaris Marines and they have one successor (Primaris) Chapter, the Wolfspear. It's specifically noted that Primaris Wolves do NOT drink from the Cup of Morkai, where Astartes Marines would traditionally get their first taste of the Canis Helix.

As far as I can tell, the Salamanders still don't have any confirmed successors, Primaris or otherwise.

I am now realizing that I may be thinking about these questions significantly more then GW ever did.

Congratulations - you now understand the 40k fandom in its entirety.

[The Glyphstone]

Didn't the Wolf Brothers end up disbanding to rampant instability anyways?

[Malak'ai]

In regards to the Salamanders, it's speculated that the Black Dragons came from them given their height, but it's still unconfirmed.

[Morty]

I've started a short (or at least that's the plan) Wrath & Glory campaign where the PCs are investigators pursuing a side-plot out Dark Heresy 2 group had run into. It's going to involve a conspiracy and stolen PDF tanks. So far it's going well enough. Adjusting various archetypes for a bunch of cops on Scintilla was tricky, but we managed.

[Random Sanity]

Didn't the Wolf Brothers end up disbanding to rampant instability anyways?

IIRC it was less 'disband' and more 'implode', but yeah, basically.

[Lord Torath]

Has anyone come up with stats for Primaris Marines?

[Thragka]

they whisper the name, Nagash

Has anyone played around with WFRP 4th edition? I've heard that mechanically it breaks away from the 2E and 40K games' core engine but that the core rulebook is pretty good bang for your buck.

[Telok]

Fluffy question. Assume someone (a PC, naturally) shoots a melta in a ship that's in the warp, and produces a hole. What happens?

We presumed that at least some parts of the warp are similar enough to vacuum to suck about 20 mooks out the hole. But I'm sure there's something more interesting that could happen now that they've holed the officer's quarters.

[The Glyphstone]

That's a pretty damn powerful melta if it can breach starship armor in one shot. That aside...

If the ship was relying on a Warpsbane Hull to keep out demons, its Gellar Field is now compromised. There's a weak point that demons can use to enter the safety bubble, and the more that get in the bigger the breach will become.

[Telok]

Well technically the game is Dungeons the Dragoning 40k 7e, but all the peices for the warp and warp travel are essentially identical. And that does include warp demons and Geller fields.

If they'd shot an armored section or were on a warship then yeah, might not have holed it. But they shot a window. Ok, so the windows have the same armor rating as space marine armor, but they were rolling well all night. I know windows on spaceships are a bad idea in general and windows in spaceship living quarters are specifically a bad idea, but it's the right sort of silly for this game.

So not-tyrannid spore samples AND warp demons AND mad scientists. Got it. But is it appropriate to treat warp space as normal vacuum plus psycho hallucinations and demons?

[Destro_Yersul]

Less normal vacuum and more daemons reaching in and physically dragging people out. Probably still vacuum-y enough to cause a problem. If the gellar field is active, daemons won't be able to get in through the hole, though, and you'd probably be fine just using vacuum, with the caveat that ain't nobody taking a spacewalk to get those guys back.

also have you seen the windows on 40k starships? There's one on the cover of the Rogue Trader core book.

Spoiler

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[bluntpencil]

I always imagined that the Gellar Field is projected a bit beyond the ship, like a shield is, so it shouldn't let the Daemons in.

However, you will be letting the air out.

[lightningcat]

Starships basically have two hulls. The outer hull has windows, and the comfortable quarters, the guns, and all of the gothic details. The inner hull is a brick attacked to the engines and the ram, and keeps all the important stuff inside it, but the lack of crew quarters is a bit of pain. Good designs have the real bridge inside the inner hull, with a cruising bridge with the windows on the outer hull, but all too often people are not so smart.
Or at least that is my explaination on how they can be all but destroyed and rebuilt.

[hamishspence]

So that's 4,000 Astartes; then minus the mutants, minus further casualties, then made into at least four Chapters of 1,000 Marines; the Raven Guard, the Black Guard, the Raptors, the Revilers and (allegedly) the Carcharadons Astra.

I thought the Carcharadon Astra were implied to be, not so much a Second Founding Chapter, as

"Raven Guard who'd gone off on Nomad-Predation crusade before the Heresy, and returned after it" -

(with a strong implication that Arkhas Fal was the founder - he shares with much later Carcharodon character Tyberos, the title "Shade Lord")

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Arkhas_Fal

so they're not covered by the Istvaan Massacre - and they aren't part of the post-Istvaan Raven Guard grouping?

[BioCharge]

So, longtime lurker, first time I've posted in this thread and I just have a story to tell, if that's okay.

My group plays Deathwatch as our "off-game" when we don't otherwise have our full complement of players. As I had never run the system before and none of my players had played it, either, I decided to run the Final Sanction adventure as an intoductory. To save time and frustration just in case we didn't actually like playing the system, I generated my own premades, wanting to use the full roster of abilities specialties rather than the cut down ones given in the adventure.

The characters are as follows: Anselm, a Black Templar Assault Marine, Sarlock, an Iron Hands Librarian, Octavius, an Ultramarines Tactical Marine, and Colten, a Blood Angels Sanguinary Priest. I was running Colten as an NPC as the player who chose him was not present.

My players made their way through the adventure over the past few sessions, taking the odd hit or two, but being healed to full due to the Sanguinary Priest. Eventually, the Kill-Team locates the Rebel HA in the Pit of Filth, which I decided was a multistory run-down hotel. As they approsch, they find that the building is being guarded by a contigent of PDF troopers, claming that this is instead a PDF command post that was cut off by the rebels. Naturally, the party was suspicious and insisted to come inside and speak to the officers in charge. The trooper they were speaking to left to head inside the building and all hell broke loose. A fusilade of stubber fire erupted from the upper stories as well as the buildings behind them and the traitorous guardsmen opened fire with their lasguns.

The Killteam forced their way into the frontal courtyard, ripping into the troopers when Colten got slammed with a krak grenade from a guardsman with a grenade launcher while Octavious got struck in the back of the head by a sniper from across the street. Eventually, the party pushed their way in, destroying the guardsman horde as well as two smaller hordes of the chainsword rebel leaders described in the books. (I know they were individuals, but I made them a magnitude 10 horde for the sake of ease). As the entered the building, a Genestealer lept from the ceiling, ripping into Sarlock, leaving him at 2 wounds. Anselm charged the creature, wounding it before Sarlock finished it with a psychically charged strike from his sword. The rebel generals and the remaining rebel horde took up defensive positions at the top suite where they would make their last stand against the battle brothers.

After patching themselves up (and Sarlock spending a fate point to heal a bit), they take positions around the suite door, ready to finish the heretics off. Anselm rips the door off and sarlock tosses in a frag grenade, while the horde opens fore with an overwatch action, pinning Colten and Octavius behins cover. The two nonpinned battle brothers enter and charge the two rebel generals. Sarlock slashes into one with his Forcesword and triggers his killing intent to finish the wretch off. He rolls double 00 and a 10, a double. We roll of Psychic Phenomina, 86, a Perils of the Warp. We roll again. I look at the die. I look at the table. I look at my party. A 98. Ripping its way out of the Warp, a Demon Prince tears its way onto the other end of the roof where the battle was taking place.

At this point, I tell the players to take 10 as I familiarize myself with the talents and abilities of the creature and how it'll fight, my kill-team immediately begins deliberating tactics. After finalizing the fear effects on the rebels (the horde sobs uncontrollably tearing at itself, one general faints, and the other just stands there in shock), I roll the Prince's initiative, it goes last in the initiative between it and the kill-team, though only Colten and Octavius will get to go before it takes its first turn. The party has decided to try and push it off the roof, so it takes at least some falling damage before the party needs to slog it out.

I have Colten trigger a Bolter Assault (with permission from the parry, as he is an NPC, and I didn't want to spend resources without their consent) and the party lands several boltor shots into it, though only dealing a few points of damage. Colten fished his turn entering a frenzy and slashing into the massive daemon. Octavius switches to a multilaser I let them scavenger earlier, dealing some damage, but unfortunately not much, though he uses his Rally Cry to restore some cohesion they had lost. The Daemon takes his turn, charging Sarlock (ruining their plan as it is much too far from the edge now), getting a slash from Anselm and Colten, as well as a punch from Octavius for his troubles, dealing some damage and a point of fatigue. It tries to knock Sarlock over with his Brutal Charge ability, Sarlock remains standing, barely. It attacks one, Sarlock parries, barely. It attacks again, Sarlock triggers Iron Arm and parries again, barely. Anselm charges the Daemon, slashing it in the back dealing a solid amount of damage thanks to numerous degrees of success and a gracious Righteous Fury.

Sarlock swings and slashes into the Daemon and channels his psychic ability again. Another Perils of the Warp. Sarlock disappears into the Warp, not dead, but lost to the Warp for a time, but not before dealing a solid 35 points of damage to the fiend. Colten invokes the Fury of Sanguinius, and thanks to a good command check from Octavius, granting everyone bonuses to attacks and damage and charges, landing solid damage. The Octavius switches to his Chainsword and charges as well, dealing some solid damage as well. The Daemon swings at Anselm, who parries and Octavius, who also parries, though barely.

Anselm brings it to 0 wounds, while Colten leaps up, chopping off a horn and dealing 3 critical damage and 2 fatigue. Octavius attempts to step back, relying on the protection of the Emporer to prevent him from getting killed by the Daemon's axe. He attempts to parry it, when Anselm asked of he could help (Octavius has a very poor Weapon Skill), I allowed it to grant a +10 bonus as he spends his reaction. The parry succeeds by the slimmest margines. Octavius pulls the multilaser again, unloading at point blank range at the fiend (gaining 5 degrees of success), tearing into its blade arm, stunning it and rendering the arm usless, the next three shots doing nothing, but the last headshot triggers righteous fury, boiling its brain, and causing the headless body to run off the side of the bulding before dissolving back into the warp.

The party finishes off the pacified rebels, going through their documents and learning they're taking positions around the Sollar and Sons promethium works; clearly the Broodlord's lair. Next session, they finish the rebellion from its start.

And that is how my biggining Kill-Team killed a Daemon Prince on their first mission. All of us were so hyped at the victory and the tension during the fight was so real. Sorry for the long-windes post, but I felt it deserved to be detailed. The odds were against them to much, but they worked well together and came out without nary a scratch, though Sarlock did lose form Toughness and got some Insanity from his trip. Overall, a *very* good session.

[Wraith]

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Arkhas_Fal

so they're not covered by the Istvaan Massacre - and they aren't part of the post-Istvaan Raven Guard grouping?

The source you cite specifically states that the Nomad fleet was never recalled, even after the desperate period after the Drop Site Massacre.

You're absolutely right; all signs seem to suggest that Arkhas Fel might have been the first Carcharodon Chapter Master, provided that at some point we get a story about him coming home in defiance of his Primarch or when being encountered by someone like Guilliman who had the authority to order him to become a new Chapter.
Otherwise it might just be coincidence brought about by different writers using similar terms. Certainly, the Carcharodon novels themselves hint that they might be in some way descended from Night Lords stock, if not directly then a blend of them and Raven Guard.

And that is how my biggining Kill-Team killed a Daemon Prince on their first mission. All of us were so hyped at the victory and the tension during the fight was so real. Sorry for the long-winded post, but I felt it deserved to be detailed. The odds were against them to much, but they worked well together and came out without nary a scratch, though Sarlock did lose form Toughness and got some Insanity from his trip. Overall, a *very* good session.

Good times, I'm glad that you enjoyed it I like Deathwatch a lot, but it's hard to find a group that can keep in the mentality of Astartes characters without becoming a parody of themselves, but it sounds like you have a good balance in there.

[Lord Torath]

Deathwatch Question: What benefit does the Tactical Finesse (Rites of Battle) squad-mode ability give you? It says it lets you make a standard attack as a half action (single shot if ranged attack), followed by a half-move. But you can move your full movement as a half-action and make a standard attack as another half action normally. How is Tactical Finesse better than that? Or am I misreading something here?

[Clistenes]

I think that is supposed to be the official version, however its still quite poorly added up.

After the Istvaan V massacre, there were 3,000 Raven Guard. After the Alpha Legion successfully sabotaged the implantation process and the afflicted Astartes began to mutate, Corax still led them into battle a few times such as at the assault of the Perfect Fortress and the Battle of Yarant.
During these assaults, the Raven Guard at full strength still only numbered ~4,000 Astartes, a number which included the mutants (who were culled before the Second Founding) and not including casualties between then and the Siege of Terra.

So that's 4,000 Astartes; then minus the mutants, minus further casualties, then made into at least four Chapters of 1,000 Marines; the Raven Guard, the Black Guard, the Raptors, the Revilers and (allegedly) the Carcharadons Astra.

It has been almost 10,000 years since those events... time enough to rebuild...

[Haval]

Deathwatch Question: What benefit does the Tactical Finesse (Rites of Battle) squad-mode ability give you? It says it lets you make a standard attack as a half action (single shot if ranged attack), followed by a half-move. But you can move your full movement as a half-action and make a standard attack as another half action normally. How is Tactical Finesse better than that? Or am I misreading something here?

Errata makes it a half move as a free action. Which is a bit better.

[Lord Torath]

Errata makes it a half move as a free action. Which is a bit better.

Okay, so it effectively gives you three half-actions in one round: 1 shot, 1 move, 1 whatever you want. Maybe an aim.

[The Glyphstone]

Looking at it in the book, it also comes with the ability to disengage from melee without penalty during the move, so that is very useful for Tacticals, Devastators, and certain Techmarine builds. Ranged characters who aren't Blood Angels have no access to Acrobatics under normal conditions, so they can't Disengage as less than a Full-Round Action.

[Lord Torath]

The Deathwatch character sheets have six dots beneath each of their ability scores, while the other 40k RPGs have four dots. The pre-made characters in the Falling Star adventure have some of those dots filled in (they are Rank 2 characters). Were there plans initially to allow six characteristic increases for Space Marines? The tables in the core rulebook only allow four advances. Is there an expansion that allows further progression?

[The Glyphstone]

Not that I'm aware of.

[Lord Torath]

How close to a "fearsome" creature do you need to be to need to take a Fear test? The Deathwatch rulebook says "When a PC is confronted by such a frightening event or adversary, he must take a Fear test." (p277)

What counts as "confronted"? Melee combat with a Genestealer? Sighting down your Heavy Bolter at a Hive Tyrant 250 meters out? Witnessing a bio-titan crest a hill a klick away? Watching a Space Leviathan block out the sun?

Do any of the other RPGs specify how close you need to be?

[Aneurin]

Well, the levels of the Fear trait have suggestions for "as scary as" at least insofar as scary applies to situations - like someone suddenly dying horrifically and exploding into maggots.

Fear (1) is meant to be "mundane" fear. So that's basically every scary xenos going - but then the RPGs do things like give an Ork Warboss Fear (2) at times. So don't expect much consistency.


...When to use a Fear test is harder, though. My rule of thumb has - unhelpfully - been "when it's scary". Which means I try and determine why a creature has a Fear rating - because it's dangerous? Because it's scary to look at? So, sometimes the Fear test doesn't come until after the creature has horribly mauled something and revealed how dangerous it is, because while the creature itself looks harmless it's actually horrifically dangerous - like those little cute green things in Galaxy Quest. If it's scary because it looks frightening, then it generally requires a Fear test when it's capable of interacting with the PCs - or they can interact with it.

That said, a bio-titan will cause a Fear test as soon as the PCs become aware of it unless extreme circumstances intervene - like it's in the process of dying, or is in retreat. Those things are terrifying and for good reason.

[Lord Torath]

So, roughly "when you know it is in range to hurt you"?

In which case, a titan (bio- or otherwise) would probably not induce a fear test when it's 10 km away. At 1000 m, though, you're probably in range of some of its weapons.

Scary monsters (genestealers, ork warbosses) and demons probably force a fear test whenever you are inside their charge range.