Warhammer & 40K RPGs Thread III: With Friends Like These, Who Needs Heresies?

[LeSwordfish]

I'm ambivalent on careers vs the DH2 system (just bear in mind experience is like half as valuable in DH2), but the penny-pinching always made me feel appropriately insignificant.

[Morty]

I'm normally very eager to ignore bean-counting, but the influence system in DH2E is not a good replacement for it. Rolling for acquiring what you need in a system as hopelessly swingy as the FFG ones leads to a situation where you need a lasgun but can't get it because everyone botched their roll.

[LeSwordfish]

I'm normally very eager to ignore bean-counting, but the influence system in DH2E is not a good replacement for it. Rolling for acquiring what you need in a system as hopelessly swingy as the FFG ones leads to a situation where you need a lasgun but can't get it because everyone botched their roll.

And the guy next to you nat-1s and picks up a Volcano Cannon.

[bluntpencil]

It's not too hard to use Influence as a wealth stat instead. You don't roll for it, but the tens digit decides how good your best gear is/how much you can get.

[Kyrell1978]

Thanks for all the input. I had forgotten about the wealth system. That's probably the deciding factor for my group. Money makes sense to us, the vagueness of "wealth" (or influence in this case) just doesn't ring true. Thanks again.

[The Glyphstone]

To clarify earlier, my issue with the wealth system was very much the literal 'coin-counting' - while thematically it did indeed make you feel insignificant, my in-play experiences led it to being more narratively disruptive. Since you had to buy everything, including bullets, and your 'allowance' was so insignificant, it didn't result in what I suspect is the intended "avoid fights at all costs" (the lethality does that just fine), but created a mentality where after a fight you stripped the corpses and environments of everything that wasn't nailed down or on fire, including the nails that weren't on fire, then hauled your 'loot' to a junk dealer just so you could afford to get into another fight if you need to. Though that might have been a consequence of people being used to D&D's murderhobo mentality, it still felt like it took away from the investigation side of the game that was more fun.

If you must keep the DH1 rules, though, really just rip out the Psychic Powers chapter entirely and superglue in the corresponding chapter from 2e - it's still plenty compatible, though you might need to tweak the XP costs-per-power. Thresholds and Overbleed are a bizarre aberration in terms of keeping the game's own internal rules logic consistent, where you switch from roll-under to a hamfisted dice pool mechanic. The Focus Power tests introduced in Rogue Trader and kept through every single edition of every game from that point on - RT, DW, BS, OW, DH2e - really is better.

[YossarianLives]

Rules question for the Dark Heresy/Only War/Other systems. I can't find any official ruling on this.

How do you handle hit location when a target has missing limbs? Like, what happens if you land a hit to the right arm but the target doesn't have a right arm any more. Does it miss, or just default to another hit location?

I have a truly dreadful idea for a tech-priest character with no limbs and the augmentation that allows limited hovering.

[Destro_Yersul]

Rules question for the Dark Heresy/Only War/Other systems. I can't find any official ruling on this.

How do you handle hit location when a target has missing limbs? Like, what happens if you land a hit to the right arm but the target doesn't have a right arm any more. Does it miss, or just default to another hit location?

I have a truly dreadful idea for a tech-priest character with no limbs and the augmentation that allows limited hovering.

I'd just default it to body. A lot of the stuff that doesn't roll to hit typically defaults there anyways.

[The Glyphstone]

I'd just default it to body. A lot of the stuff that doesn't roll to hit typically defaults there anyways.

That's how I'd do it too. Being a floating torso might reduce your Size enough to count as Scrawny and be harder to hit that way, but quadruple amputee status doesn't earn you a permanent 50% miss chance.

[Grim Portent]

For some reason I kind of want to try running a WHF game where all the PCs are Ogre Maneaters wandering the world doing mercenary work. But I am in no way familiar with the WHFRP rules so I'm wondering if anyone can recommend which edition to look into?

[Lord Torath]

The Deathwatch Errata says that when channeling energy through your force sword to increase damage in combat, you can channel at fettered, unfettered, or push, with the normal chance of rolls on the Psychic Phenomena table. Near as I can tell, your Psychic Rating has no effect whatsoever on the damage you do in that case though; it's just an opposed willpower test with your target, with each degree of success you get increasing the damage by 1d10. So is there any reason to use anything other than fettered (assuming you don't just really enjoy rolling on the Psychic Phenomena table)?

Did they clear this up in a later RPG?

[BioCharge]

The Deathwatch Errata says that when channeling energy through your force sword to increase damage in combat, you can channel at fettered, unfettered, or push, with the normal chance of rolls on the Psychic Phenomena table. Near as I can tell, your Psychic Rating has no effect whatsoever on the damage you do in that case though; it's just an opposed willpower test with your target, with each degree of success you get increasing the damage by 1d10. So is there any reason to use anything other than fettered (assuming you don't just really enjoy rolling on the Psychic Phenomena table)?

Did they clear this up in a later RPG?

Ah, finally something I can be helpful on. The main thing is that when making a Focus Power test (which includes using the Force Property being discussed) you add +5 × your Psy Rating to the test. So, for example, a starting Librarian (PR 3) would gain a +15 on the test while undettered or +30 when pushing. Thus, this grants more possible degrees of success, making it more likely to succeed as well as do more damage.

Edit: Spelling

[Lord Torath]

Ah, finally something I can be helpful on. The main thing is that when making a Focus Power test (which includes using the Force Property being discussed) you add +5 × your Psy Rating to the test. So, for example, a starting Librarian (PR 3) would gain a +15 on the test while unfettered or +30 when pushing. Thus, this grants more possible degrees of success, making it more likely to succeed as well as do more damage.

Ah. Somehow I missed that whole +5 times Psy Rating bit of the paragraph, despite going over that section about twenty times. That makes more sense, then. Makes it easier to get powers off, too! Thanks!

Is there an "aim" action for psychic powers? Spend a full or half action for a +20/+10 bonus to a Focus test done immediately after (This is what I was looking for the twenty or so times I was reading this section)?

[BioCharge]

Ah. Somehow I missed that whole +5 times Psy Rating bit of the paragraph, despite going over that section about twenty times. That makes more sense, then. Makes it easier to get powers off, too! Thanks!

Is there an "aim" action for psychic powers? Spend a full or half action for a +20/+10 bonus to a Focus test done immediately after (This is what I was looking for the twenty or so times I was reading this section)?

I'm not 100% certain, but I believe that with powers that specify that their Focus Power tests are mosifies by conditions that would affect ranged attacks, such as Smite or the Iron Hands' power Betrayal of Flesh could benefit from it. Though, as I said, I'm not certain on those, but I would allow it at my table.

[JellyPooga]

I'm normally very eager to ignore bean-counting, but the influence system in DH2E is not a good replacement for it. Rolling for acquiring what you need in a system as hopelessly swingy as the FFG ones leads to a situation where you need a lasgun but can't get it because everyone botched their roll.

And the guy next to you nat-1s and picks up a Volcano Cannon.

Between Availability, Location, Trading-In modifiers and Sacrificing Influence to auto-succeed, I've never had a problem with a party failing to Requisition ammo, then turning around and critting their way to a Volcano Cannon; a little GM sense ensures that the system works even if a player is daft/wonky enough to even try to abuse the system so and for common items (e.g. ammo), the test is easy enough that when a complete failure to acquire it does come up on that rare occasion, it creates a little drama. Not to mention Subtlety modifiers for Requisitioning anything with a -ve Availability (which apply just for making the test, regardless of success or failure). You can't just roll the bones and grab gear you want based on it; if you want that Storm Bolter, every time you even ask for it, you lose 4 Subtlety and that's assuming one's even available on whatever mud-farming backwater your Acolytes are on at the time.

It's not too hard to use Influence as a wealth stat instead. You don't roll for it, but the tens digit decides how good your best gear is/how much you can get.

I like this idea, but it removes some of the narrative power of chance. If the dice say "no ammo available", then that's something that might need to be explained or expounded upon; Did someone come in and buy it all up? Is there some kind of supply issue that could be resolved by the PC's? Circumstances like this come up infrequently enough that they can lead to impromptu side-quests or tangents to the main plot-line and it's also fun to play sub-optimally; it's easy to solve the plot and mow down the bad-guys when you've got everything you need, but when you're counting your last few bullets and wondering whether you'll need them for the boss, or whether you think your last lasgun power-pack will survive another "camp-fire recharge" before finally burning out...it increases the drama.

[bluntpencil]

Between Availability, Location, Trading-In modifiers and Sacrificing Influence to auto-succeed, I've never had a problem with a party failing to Requisition ammo, then turning around and critting their way to a Volcano Cannon; a little GM sense ensures that the system works even if a player is daft/wonky enough to even try to abuse the system so and for common items (e.g. ammo), the test is easy enough that when a complete failure to acquire it does come up on that rare occasion, it creates a little drama. Not to mention Subtlety modifiers for Requisitioning anything with a -ve Availability (which apply just for making the test, regardless of success or failure). You can't just roll the bones and grab gear you want based on it; if you want that Storm Bolter, every time you even ask for it, you lose 4 Subtlety and that's assuming one's even available on whatever mud-farming backwater your Acolytes are on at the time.



I like this idea, but it removes some of the narrative power of chance. If the dice say "no ammo available", then that's something that might need to be explained or expounded upon; Did someone come in and buy it all up? Is there some kind of supply issue that could be resolved by the PC's? Circumstances like this come up infrequently enough that they can lead to impromptu side-quests or tangents to the main plot-line and it's also fun to play sub-optimally; it's easy to solve the plot and mow down the bad-guys when you've got everything you need, but when you're counting your last few bullets and wondering whether you'll need them for the boss, or whether you think your last lasgun power-pack will survive another "camp-fire recharge" before finally burning out...it increases the drama.

Running out of ammo would still happen - you're not going to be able to restock in the wilderness, or whatever, just the same as using Thrones.

[Destro_Yersul]

After a mission or two of buying ammo, I tend to let the players just get ammo restocks free of charge anyways. If you need more during the mission you can go buy it, but the Inquisition will top you up before you head back out.

Also, I think subtlety is a silly mechanic.

[JellyPooga]

After a mission or two of buying ammo, I tend to let the players just get ammo restocks free of charge anyways. If you need more during the mission you can go buy it, but the Inquisition will top you up before you head back out.

Also, I think subtlety is a silly mechanic.

What's silly about subtlety? It's a convenient mechanic (if, perhaps, an unnecessary one) to encourage GM's and Players to focus on the style of game that DH portrays. DH isn't designed for mass battles or hack'n'slash dungeon delves; it's focus is supposed to be investigation and the PC's Subtlety is just a tool to encourage it. I won't say it's the best designed tool for the job, but at least the designers acknowledge it's importance, for example, when it comes to things like trying to requisition outlandish, illegal or unique items.

[Destro_Yersul]

It's a numerical score, for one, and completely superfluous, for two. The concept of subtlety is fine, but there really was no need to quantify it.

[The Glyphstone]

Has anyone ever found a way to quantify/estimate a 40kRPG equivalent to 'Challenge Rating', at least as far as calculating what difficulty a particular enemy might be? DH2e introduced the 'Threat Level', but aside from the sample NPCs there is no given way to estimate what TL a particular bad guy might be, and thus what level of PCs it's appropriate to use against.

[BioCharge]

Has anyone ever found a way to quantify/estimate a 40kRPG equivalent to 'Challenge Rating', at least as far as calculating what difficulty a particular enemy might be? DH2e introduced the 'Threat Level', but aside from the sample NPCs there is no given way to estimate what TL a particular bad guy might be, and thus what level of PCs it's appropriate to use against.

Eh, nothing hard-and-fast, but I found the Troop/Elite/Master distinctions to be good enough for my Deathwatch guys. I don't have experience with the other systems, but their threats are scaled to the assumed power level, or, at least, I assume they are.

However, I do check relative deadliness and tankiness relative to the characters. Generally, I check the median weapon for the characters (in my case, their Bolters) and see what they'd have to roll damage wise to hurt them. If it's more than 75% max damage with their normal equipment, I might either throw fewer of them (in the case of elites) or otherwise provide a way to deal with them (in the case of masters).

I also check relative chance to hit vs. the number of attacks the creature has vs. its average damage output. If it has many attacks, though they do little damage or have a relatively low chance to hit, such as the Rebels with heavy stubbers in Final Sanction, then I can feel comfortable sending a few at them. However, if it has a decent chance to hit with multiple attacks or deals a lot of damage, like the Carnifex we discussed earlier or a Traitor Marine with a Lascannon, I'll only throw one or two at them with lesser troops in between to act as fodder.

I also factor in environment, i.e. distance to combatant (mostly for melee enemies) and cover (for ranged). I try to allow deadly use of the environment to help even odds if I think the party might have trouble. For example, in Oblivion's Edge, during the spaceport final stand, I let my players use the fuel truck to, instead of blowing it up like the book, flood the potholes and coat the main street with the promethium and light it up when the horde came, slowing them down and burning most of the gaunts to death over the course of several rounds.

Given, I might be skewed due to the relative resilience of Space Marines over other characters, such as those from Dark Heresy, but I don't see why the same principles can't apply?

TL;DR I check how likely they are to kill the characters vs. how easily they are killed and find a decent balance.

[JellyPooga]

Has anyone ever found a way to quantify/estimate a 40kRPG equivalent to 'Challenge Rating', at least as far as calculating what difficulty a particular enemy might be? DH2e introduced the 'Threat Level', but aside from the sample NPCs there is no given way to estimate what TL a particular bad guy might be, and thus what level of PCs it's appropriate to use against.

While BioCharge makes a good post on how to evaluate the deadliness of enemies, by the numbers, I'll point out one important question; why?

- The first thing to know is that unlike games like D&D where everyone has a standard "level" of competence in combat, nothing says a DH character with a certain level of experience is going to have any given standard of combat prowess. A 10000xp DH character can range from a god of war to a guy that can barely aim a laspistol. This makes every encounter a judgement call by the GM; he can't just look at an NPCs "Threat Level" (or other convenient number) and plug it in expecting any kind of result.

- The second thing to know is gear. A well equipped party with good weapons, armour, grenades and equipment will fare very differently against the same NPC if stripped to the waist or otherwise using lower-standard gear. This, again, makes any kind of "Threat Level" number relatively irrelevant compared to judging the threat based on your PCs. E.g. a melee-focused group of PCs will find an encounter against a bunch of heavy stubber armed gangers very different compared to a more ranged focused group of PCs.

These two factors render the notion of Threat Level or Challenge Rating all but nonsense. DH expects the GM to use their judgement, to tailor the game (or not) to the Player Characters to alter the difficulty of encounters. It also expects the PCs to do the same; it's not a game about wandering through a dungeon killing kobolds. It's a game about making decisions; picking your fights and deciding the outcome. Do you fight at all? When do you flee if it goes pear-shaped? How do you defeat the unbeatable boss? Do you want blood on your hands, or do you want prisoners? An arbitrary number that tells you how tough an NPC is in a fight doesn't really help to answer any of these questions.

[The Glyphstone]

I wouldn't be asking the question if it wasn't relevant to my game, so telling me I don't need to know the answer isn't helping. Every single thing you posted is also relevant to a game like D&D with its 'baseline competence' - melee vs. ranged heavy, casters vs. mundanes, optimization/tier within the same level range, player preference for making decisions about fights or prisoners or fleeing. Trying to make this a Roleplaying vs. Rollplaying argument is derailing the core point.

Biocharge was indeed slightly more helpful, but what I was specifically looking for was something akin to VorpalTribble's old analysis breakdown of CR and what feeds into it. There is, in theory, math determining why a Desoleum Bounty Hunter is considered a Threat Level 8 Elite, and I wanted to know why. The "Arbitrary number" of Challenge Rating doesn't give me inviolate truths, but it will give me a starting point, and that's what I want. If it doesn't exist I''ll have to do it the hard way.

[JellyPooga]

I wouldn't be asking the question if it wasn't relevant to my game, so telling me I don't need to know the answer isn't helping. Every single thing you posted is also relevant to a game like D&D with its 'baseline competence' - melee vs. ranged heavy, casters vs. mundanes, optimization/tier within the same level range, player preference for making decisions about fights or prisoners or fleeing. Trying to make this a Roleplaying vs. Rollplaying argument is derailing the core point.

Biocharge was indeed slightly more helpful, but what I was specifically looking for was something akin to VorpalTribble's old analysis breakdown of CR and what feeds into it. There is, in theory, math determining why a Desoleum Bounty Hunter is considered a Threat Level 8 Elite, and I wanted to know why. The "Arbitrary number" of Challenge Rating doesn't give me inviolate truths, but it will give me a starting point, and that's what I want. If it doesn't exist I''ll have to do it the hard way.

I'm not saying it's a roleplay vs. rollplay thing, I'm saying that the rollplay makes a baseline number irrelevant because while in d&d there's certain assumptions you can make about a given level of character (e.g. HP, attack bonuses, etc.) , in DH there simply aren't. As I said, a DH character with 10000xp could have spent none of it on combat, or all of it, giving rise to false equivalence against a given encounter.

[Lord Torath]

What Talent does my Deathwatch marine need to have in order to wield a Breaching Augur?

It doesn't have the "Astartes" label, so it's not something he's already trained in. Would that be Exotic Weapon Training (any) available at Rank 3?

[BioCharge]

What Talent does my Deathwatch marine need to have in order to wield a Breaching Augur?

It doesn't have the "Astartes" label, so it's not something he's already trained in. Would that be Exotic Weapon Training (any) available at Rank 3?

By my reading, and I could easily be wrong, but I don't see anywhere that the Breaching Auger is an exotic weapon of any type. As Astartes are proficient in all non-exotic weapons (regardless of whether they are "Astartes" weapons or not), the character is proficient with it by default.

[The Glyphstone]

I'm not saying it's a roleplay vs. rollplay thing, I'm saying that the rollplay makes a baseline number irrelevant because while in d&d there's certain assumptions you can make about a given level of character (e.g. HP, attack bonuses, etc.) , in DH there simply aren't. As I said, a DH character with 10000xp could have spent none of it on combat, or all of it, giving rise to false equivalence against a given encounter.

Okay, maybe that was a little aggressive. My vain hopes were just that because the 'Threat Level' stat was a new thing to DH2e, when no previous game in FFG's line had ever tried to use it, that there might be some mathematical logic as to why a Desoleum Bounty Hunter is a Threat Level 8 Elite and a Crime Boss is a Threat Level 17 Master, based on stats or abilities or something. Knowing what the NPCs were 'balanced' against in terms of a theoretical white-room group of PCs would be a starting point for me to adjust based on a group's greater or lesser combat power. Sadly, it appears even the printed NPCs are wildly inconsistent within their Threat Rating, so FFG gonna FFG yet again.

[Lord Torath]

Deathwatch Core rules Talents table (p111) says the prerequisite for Master Enginseer is Tech-Use+10 (and other stuff), while the talent description (p123) says it is Tech-Use+20 (and the same other stuff). Which is correct?

The Living Errata document misses this discrepancy.

[JellyPooga]

Okay, maybe that was a little aggressive. My vain hopes were just that because the 'Threat Level' stat was a new thing to DH2e, when no previous game in FFG's line had ever tried to use it, that there might be some mathematical logic as to why a Desoleum Bounty Hunter is a Threat Level 8 Elite and a Crime Boss is a Threat Level 17 Master, based on stats or abilities or something. Knowing what the NPCs were 'balanced' against in terms of a theoretical white-room group of PCs would be a starting point for me to adjust based on a group's greater or lesser combat power. Sadly, it appears even the printed NPCs are wildly inconsistent within their Threat Rating, so FFG gonna FFG yet again.

Yeah. I had another look at the NPCs myself, in the itch of curiosity and I couldn't work anything out. I don't think there is a "balance point", in large part because of the reason I gave; FF seemed to have just assigned some arbitrary numbers and washed their hands of it.

[Lord Torath]

Deathwatch Core rules Talents table (p111) says the prerequisite for Master Enginseer is Tech-Use+10 (and other stuff), while the talent description (p123) says it is Tech-Use+20 (and the same other stuff). Which is correct?

The Living Errata document misses this discrepancy.

Some checking in the other games (Rogue Trader, Only War, Black Crusade) shows that it probably should be the Tech-Use +20. Just in case anyone cares.