Warhammer & 40K RPGs Thread III: With Friends Like These, Who Needs Heresies?

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I thought as much. Thanks for the clarification!

What disciplines would be the best ones to pick if I wanted to play an Astropath Transcendent who functions kind of like a discount Space Marine Librarian? A person that conducts themselves like a paladin of the God-Emperor, and wants to smite heretics and protect the innocent. Both Theosophamy and Soul Ward look attractive in that regard, to the point where I'm worried they'd be redundant if I picked both: Theosophamy kind of gives you a "Detect Evil" in the form of detecting Warp disturbances, while Soul Ward bolsters and protects allies like a paladin's auras...but then Voidfrost looks really fun, allowing me to kind of play something like Frost in Warframe, using my powers to freeze enemies...and on the other OTHER hand, Telekinesis' powers kind of let you be a 40k version of a Jedi Knight...quite a dilemma for an indecisive player like myself, you know?

[The Glyphstone]

I can't think of any disciplines that will mimic a Librarian - their signature attack spell is shooting bio-lighting from their eyeballs with Smite, and in general they are far more versatile than any Astropath can manage.

Soul Ward is a 'buff your party' tree, if you want to play support. Theosophamy is for fighting demons, mutants, and psykers. Voidfrost is an offensive/debuff discipline. Telepathy, Telekinesis, and Divination are self-explanatory. If you want a war-Astropath, I'd combo Divination for self-buffs, Telekinesis for Armor and Precision telekinesis, and whatever you want for the third one. Theosophamy has Warp Weapon if you want to wade through a bunch of junky powers first.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

War-Astropath is a better way of putting it, yeah. I only offered Librarian as a comparison because they're psykers who aren't afraid of melee.

I'm kind of confused by the suggestion, though: you recommend Divination and Telekinesis first, and then a third one of my choice, but that would take up all three of my available Disciplines, since I have to start with Telepathy by default.

[The Glyphstone]

Riiiiiight. No third discipline.

[Destro_Yersul]

Those three let you get the Jedi Knight experience, anyways. For maximum Jedi, see if your GM will let you have a Sollex-Aegis Energy Blade. Getting WS as an Astropath is pretty hard, though.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Well, I did ask about this in the past, and was given a route to have at least a decent WS: have them be a Pit Fighter from a Death World and some other things. While it wouldn't beat an Arch-Militant's melee skill, it isn't necessarily supposed to, just be good enough that I can do more with a Force Sword than just wear it for decoration...

[The Glyphstone]

The main advantage of the Telekinesis tree is Precision Telekinesis, letting you wield a weapon and make attacks with Willpower instead of Weapon Skill, and substitute Psy Rating for Strength. But that's not open till Rank 3. Till then, you pick up either Mind Probe+Psychic Scream or Delude+Compel and hang out behind your allies.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

So I could hypothetically have a different background? Thats AWESOME!

I wouldn't qualify for WS-based talents, though, right?

[Destro_Yersul]

The main advantage of the Telekinesis tree is Precision Telekinesis, letting you wield a weapon and make attacks with Willpower instead of Weapon Skill, and substitute Psy Rating for Strength. But that's not open till Rank 3. Till then, you pick up either Mind Probe+Psychic Scream or Delude+Compel and hang out behind your allies.

It's always annoyed me a bit that Precision Telekinesis lets you do this. They could never figure out a way to implement that power that didn't break something, which is probably why it got cut in later game lines.

Personally, I'm inclined to disallow it anyways. Psykers don't need the help.

I wouldn't qualify for WS-based talents, though, right?

It only allows you to sub your WP for the purpose of tests. You'd need to qualify for talents normally.

It's also worth noting that using it with melee weapons is weird. By the errata, range is measured from you, not the weapon, so you still need to get into melee to actually use it. You also need to spend actions, and are affected by any bonuses or penalties as usual.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

On a slightly related note, how does Wrath & Glory hold up compared with the Fantasy Flight games, especially Rogue Trader and the 2nd Edition of Dark Heresy, which I have access to?

While I've been asking mostly about RT, since it has the most info about playable Astropaths, I don't know what'll provide the smoothest gameplay experience, since the last time I played a 40K RPG it quickly descended into a free-form RP.

Plus it's frustrating that abhumans are only really playable in Only War as far as I'm aware...

[druid91]

So. I don't know enough about WFRP to know....

But is it possible to play a Vampire/Necromancer in it?

[Anonymouswizard]

So. I don't know enough about WFRP to know....

But is it possible to play a Vampire/Necromancer in it?

I don't believe vampires are possible, Necromancers are and I believe Necromancy is one of the corebook lores (in addition to the 8 colour lores and demonology), but I can't remember off the top of my head how fleshed out it is.

[lightningcat]

On a slightly related note, how does Wrath & Glory hold up compared with the Fantasy Flight games, especially Rogue Trader and the 2nd Edition of Dark Heresy, which I have access to?

While I've been asking mostly about RT, since it has the most info about playable Astropaths, I don't know what'll provide the smoothest gameplay experience, since the last time I played a 40K RPG it quickly descended into a free-form RP.

Plus it's frustrating that abhumans are only really playable in Only War as far as I'm aware...

I have not gotten to play W&G due to moving several hours away from my gaming group. 😥 But, I have been told that because you can do almost anything, it is VERY IMPORTANT to figure out what the group wants to be before starting. That way you can adjust Teir Levels and starting resources to make everything fit together. A hodgepog group is going to go nowhere and do nothing very quickly. I did not see this mentioned in the book, of course. Each of the FF games had a basic concept built in, so building the group was less important, although I have become a fan of building a group template no matter what game system I am playing.

Also, Navigators are abhumans, and you can play them in Rogue Trader. But that is one of the downsides to trying to maintain a theme with the individual games, the abhumans don't fit in most of those themes. Dark Herasy is about blending in and investigating, abhumans stick out like sore thumbs in most places. Rogue Trader is about exploration and nobility, and most abhumans are two steps away from being outcast from society. Deathwatch is about being a transhuman murder machine, so even humans don't fit real well. Only War is about being down in the mud and muck of the front lines of eternal warfare, where anyone that is considered human is equal (usually in death). So abhumans fit here. Although I am not particularly happy with how they were done, they work within the system and default themes of the gameline. How they were done might allow squats or nightsiders, but not so much with longshanks, felanids, or the Afriel Strain, all of which are basically humans but with some tweaks.

[Aneurin]

So. I don't know enough about WFRP to know....

But is it possible to play a Vampire/Necromancer in it?

I'm not familiar with 1e, so couldn't tell you about that.

WFRP 2e has a sort of mini-Lord of Necromancy, so a Necromancer is possible - it also has rules in Night's Dark Masters that could, in theory, be used to create a vampire PC. This is not the intent and, honestly, I'd really, really recommend not doing it. Some of the abilities are a bit nuts, and you will have problems with the whole must-consume-human-blood thing, especially as a new vampire where you need a lot, and often. There's also no "converted during play" rule that I'm aware of.

WFRP 4e can do a very little Necromancy, but no rules that could be used for a PC vampire. That may change with future releases.


In any event, it's not a particularly good idea to do either in-universe, since it's basically akin to painting a giant target on your back and wearing a "kill me now" shirt. If anyone finds out you're a Necromancer or a Vampire you will have some very unpleasant people coming after you.

[Grim Portent]

You could probably use the necromancy and vampire rules to try and do a Black Crusade type of game. Being a group of vampires and necromancers going up against the Empire/Bretonnia/border princes/Kislev or what have you as part of the campaign premise. Would be very different from the intended uses of the system though. I don't know enough about WHFRP to know how much stuff would be wonky as a result.


You can also backport the ratling and ogryn from Only War into Black Crusade, but both only really fit into a human party. Though a more accurate ogryn (which is to say one that isn't barely tougher than a baseline human) would probably fit in fine with chaos marines.

[druid91]

I
In any event, it's not a particularly good idea to do either in-universe, since it's basically akin to painting a giant target on your back and wearing a "kill me now" shirt. If anyone finds out you're a Necromancer or a Vampire you will have some very unpleasant people coming after you.

I mean.... Isn't that just being alive in the FB universe? After all. Being a bunch of Rat Catchers and Dockworkers picking fights with cultists isn't the best idea either.

[Telok]

I mean.... Isn't that just being alive in the FB universe? After all. Being a bunch of Rat Catchers and Dockworkers picking fights with cultists isn't the best idea either.

Don't dis the rat catcher's dog man. Back in 2e I got to see one get 3/5 kills in a sewer fight with skaven. That dog's dice were on fire that night but they're not a wuss even on normal days.

[Max_Killjoy]

I mean.... Isn't that just being alive in the FB universe?

Warhammer, where the exercise of free will is not "will my life suck?" but "how will my life suck?"

[Grim Portent]

Dunno, if you live in the non-forested parts of the empire and have a lord who isn't a complete ******* then being a farmer probably isn't too bad, or at least no worse than being a farmer in the late medieval period. Biggest threats to the average person excluding bandits are mostly beastmen, greenskins and random trolls wandering into the area, being in the open fields and away from the mountains shoots pretty much all of those in the foot. Undead too come to think of it, and chaos.

The actual flat unforested areas of the old world are strangely benign* considering how many horrible things wait beyond the treeline or along the coast. Hell, the Moot exists and is pleasant enough if you can stand the halfling's tendency to swear worse than sailors, pick up random stuff and smacking your head on the doorframe of any building you want to enter.

*Within the Empire and Bretonnia anyway, obviously if you go somewhere centigors are more common or over the mountains into the lands hounded by wolf riders and such the flatlands are a lot more dangerous.

[Morty]

I mean.... Isn't that just being alive in the FB universe? After all. Being a bunch of Rat Catchers and Dockworkers picking fights with cultists isn't the best idea either.

It isn't. Ignore the memes and people turning the whole thing into a joke. The world of Warhammer Fantasy is dangerous and the PCs are people who look for trouble in it. This is entirely separate from making yourself Public Enemy Number One by being a necromancer or undead. Well, Public Enemy Number Two, maybe. Chaos cultists and sorcerers are probably higher up there.

[The Glyphstone]

Indeed. the Warhammer Fantasy world is a Dark Fantasy, but it gets overshadowed in the comedic grimdarkness by its sci-fi cousin. 40K truly is 'everything sucks for everyone forever', but one doesn't automatically bleed into the other.

[Grim Portent]

Indeed. the Warhammer Fantasy world is a Dark Fantasy, but it gets overshadowed in the comedic grimdarkness by its sci-fi cousin. 40K truly is 'everything sucks for everyone forever', but one doesn't automatically bleed into the other.

I'm not sure life in 40k is necessarily terrible even for menial labourers on most worlds. 40k factories draw a lot on victorian era factories and workhouses* for the conditions of people at work and for their home life, which is a bad life but not the worst possible thing. Plus all the saint's days and other mandatory celebrations probably give most of the populace a break to get drunk and eat more than usual.

*With more beatings.

[LeSwordfish]

40k factories draw a lot on victorian era factories and workhouses* for the conditions of people at work and for their home life, which is a bad life but not the worst possible thing.

I don't know, the average victorian poorhouse's conditions were sufficiently horrible to qualify for infinite dystopia. Not that there weren't people in human history that were treated worse but a) it certainly qualifies anyway and b) creating a fantasy analogue of the american south or belgian congo for your grimdark spacemen shooting funtimes would be staggeringly tasteless.

[Grim Portent]

Sure it's bad, but it's not exactly all misery all the time. Living as a basic menial worker is really bad, but once you get outside the factories, or into the better type of factory, things start looking up and even the menials get days off and have their little distractions like alcohol, various drugs, gambling and religious sermons.

There's enough people in 40k who live decent lives that I wouldn't say everyone suffers. The soldiers of most regiments, naval crews of most vessels, the lowest class of workers and the mutants and vagrants all live cruel, short lives, but there's lots of people who're living in better circumstances.

[Delta]

The problem with living in that world is one of scale. Not only do you work 7 days a week 12 hour shifts, but not even when they're over you really "leave the factory", because most likely, the whole world you live on is basically one giant factory, and not only will you and your children work their for all your life, so has your whole line going back literally milennia, probably working the very same machine all that time. And if anyone ever does manage to somehow get out, it's either as a conscript to die a brutal, meaningless death or if they are extremely lucky, they then can find out that due to some beaurocratic oversight, everything that machine has produced for the last 500 years or so gets dumped right after delivery because no one is actually using that part anymore, reducing everything they and their forefathers have done for dozens of generation to nothing but a running joke for some dock workers on another worlds.

This is just one more thing that makes the world of 40k so horrible, the combination of ridiculously enormous existential threats while at the same time the Imperium having grown so ridiculously large, static and beaurocratic that things even on a planetary scale can be completely meaningless to the big picture.

[Anonymouswizard]

To be fair, the Imperium is large enough that making blanket statements is pretty much impossible. While menial workers and other members of the lower class and under class almost certainly have a terrible lot there's probably as many places where a middle class lives relatively comfortably, and if you're part of the upper class then you might be anywhere from living off income from your lands to 'why is there a knife in my back' depending on how high up you are.

And there is almost certainly a middle class, consisting of clerks, minor technical workers (because not everything is worth getting a tech priest in for), and other jobs of a similar level. Most probably still work 60-80 hour weeks, but some will work less and they'll receive much better compensation than the people putting the fuel in bolter casings.

And if you're very lucky, you might live on an agricultural world with enough of a technology base to make farming easy. You just probably won't, and there's no certainty that the tech won't irreparably break down.

Yes living in the 40k universe likely isn't going to be fun, but if you're a clerk in a food distribution unit on a minor hive world it's entirely possible to be quite comfortable, if you don't mind the lack of sunlight.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Especially since the worst examples of each faction tend to be what we're given the most exposure to, since that generates the most conflict and theoretically the most story potential (I say theoretically because Darkness-Induced Audience Apathy is something Warhammer easily conjures, being the originator of the term "grimdark").

While I'm one of those weirdos who'd actually LIKE a story about a day in the comfortable, non-exciting life of a clerk in a food distribution unit on a minor hive world, I imagine my tastes are in the minority.

[Destro_Yersul]

While I could write that, it would likely be very boring. I'd need to figure out some sort of twist to keep it interesting.

[Anonymouswizard]

While I'm one of those weirdos who'd actually LIKE a story about a day in the comfortable, non-exciting life of a clerk in a food distribution unit on a minor hive world, I imagine my tastes are in the minority.

Honestly, as like story 6 in a book of sorry stories it would be great. Although you wouldn't want a full blown novel United you were going to focus on the relationships between clerks and the stands resulting from that.

[Grim Portent]

It could be a romance story, a clerk stuck in one of the more repetitive boring administrative roles, marred by aesthetically unpleasant augmetics for their job, finally gets a chance to go to a festival with the other workers because one of their colleagues offered to finish up some paperwork for them as a thank you for some favour. While there they bump into someone cute and have to relearn how to interact with non-clerks and try to juggle their heavy workload with their desire to spend more time with their new love interest and eke out their own little spot of brightness among the drudgery.

Something short, simple but sweet. It's quite a common story at the core.