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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Does this feat seem overpowered?

    I was just looking around for good stuff for an unarmored fighter and came upon this:

    Edit: http://www.orfinlir.de/index.php?id=Feats

    Should be in that list, in the first column.

    It seems very good. Too good, to be honest. It's like an amped up defense rule variant from Unearthed Arcana. Or a slightly better defense of Vow of Poverty(but without the drawbacks.) It does only act like an armor bonus though, as far as I can tell, as it only specifies that it is against flat-footed attacks and not touch attacks, though you could argue otherwise with how they word the bonus(to your base AC.) You do need to use 3 feats to get to master level as well...

    Would this be too much?
    Last edited by Deel; 2007-04-27 at 05:01 AM.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Thiel's Avatar

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    Default Re: Does this feat seem overpowered?

    The link doesn't work
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    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Dhavaer's Avatar

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    Default Re: Does this feat seem overpowered?

    It works for me, but there's no feat there, and it's all in German. Or it looks like German.
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  4. - Top - End - #4
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Does this feat seem overpowered?

    Sorry, didn't think direct linking would do that. Put a link to the feat list itself up. And it should be in english.
    Last edited by Deel; 2007-04-27 at 05:02 AM.

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    Rad's Avatar

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    Default Re: Does this feat seem overpowered?

    Full plate +5 has an armor bonus of 13 and reduces movement (and skills). the expert unarmed gives a +17 and has no disadvantage at all (freeing up some money too). and it stacks with everything (VoP, monk etc.). I didn't have a LOT of time to consider it, but it cam make an "unarmored" character very well defended.
    Would you like to fight a wizard with that?
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    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Dhavaer's Avatar

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    Default Re: Does this feat seem overpowered?

    Yeah, that's crazy good. That's +7 to AC at first level, if you're human and take a flaw. Definately overpowered. At the very least, it needs a very, very high BAB requirement.
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    Dhavaer, your ideas are like candy from the sky, sprinkled lightly with cinnamon.
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  7. - Top - End - #7
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

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    Default Re: Does this feat seem overpowered?

    I certainly hope that feat isn't from a book. O_o I can see how that could be abused. (Especially if someone was using a monk, gah!)

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    SamuraiGuy

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    Default Re: Does this feat seem overpowered?

    Yeah, silly.

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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Does this feat seem overpowered?

    As is, broken.

    Fixable by turning the bonus it provides into a specific, named type, so it won't stack with certain things.

    It would make sense for it to be a dodge bonus, since this is for an unarmored character, but that might ot nerf this enough, what with dodge bonuses stacking and all.

    If you made it provide an actually armor bonus, that would help, even if it doesn't make sense, flavor wise.

    Maybe make it a Block Bonus, and then have block bonuses count the same as armor bonuses (meaning they don't stack with each other, but technically if you have a block bonus, you aren't actually wearing armor).

    The idea here is that you learn to block as a reflex action, instead of relying on your armor to take whatever blows come your way.

    This means, of course, that if you have these feats, you can't really get any benefit from bracers of AC, or the like...

    Add in a BAB +4 for the second feat and a BAB +8 for the third, and I think it'd work quite nicely at that point.

    OTOH, I'd make it a monk bonus feat available instead of the usual monk bonus feats at each corresponding level...but a monk can ignore any bab requirement posted.

    So, the monk can take all three feats by level six (instead of level 8 for a straight fighter or ranger, or level 11 for a rogue), but he has to give up all of his other bonus feat options in order to become a defensively focused monk.

    Note: Straight wizards can't pick up the second feat until level eight and the third until level 16. reducing the wizards FTW! aspect of the feat immensely.

    Oh, and monks need all the help they can get, especially in mid-late game.
    Last edited by ravenkith; 2007-04-27 at 07:48 AM.
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    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Dhavaer's Avatar

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    Default Re: Does this feat seem overpowered?

    Quote Originally Posted by ravenkith View Post
    So, the monk can take all three feats by level six (instead of level 8 for a straight fighter or ranger, or level 11 for a rogue), but he has to give up all of his other bonus feat options in order to become a defensively focused monk.
    9 for a Ranger and 12 for a Rogue. They don't get feats at 8 or 11.
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  11. - Top - End - #11
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    ElfMonkGuy

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    Default Re: Does this feat seem overpowered?

    A couple problems:

    -The feats need BAB requirements. I'd say +1/+6/+11. As it is, paying 3 feats in order to get the equivalent of what, +4 (Mithral) Full Plate (edit: and a +5 Amulet of Natural Armor) at level 20, that's not all that bad by that level. The scaling could still use tweaking, though.
    -The feats specify they don't stack with armor bonuses from armor. This is sloppy rule-scripting that DO mean you can benefit from Bracers of Armor (because they provide an armor bonus that is not from armor).
    -The bonus should be one you lose when flat-footed. This one isn't.
    Last edited by Indon; 2007-04-27 at 07:55 AM.

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: Does this feat seem overpowered?

    As is, A Vow of Poverty + Vow of Peace Monk has the following AC at level 20:

    base 10
    +17 (unarmored defense proficiency, master)
    +4 (monk)
    +6 (Vow of Peace, various)
    +10 (ascetic AC bonus)
    +3 (ascetic deflection)
    +2 (ascetic natural armor)
    +10 (wisdom; starting 18, add ascetic bonuses and every 4/levels)
    +6 (dexterity; starting 16 secondary ascetic ability bonus)

    68 AC, and I'm pretty sure you can have more on top of that.

    If it were possible to have Unarmored Defense Proficiency (master) and both Vows at level 1, which I know it isn't, that would be about 34 AC.

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: Does this feat seem overpowered?

    Quote Originally Posted by brian c View Post
    As is, A Vow of Poverty + Vow of Peace Monk has the following AC at level 20:

    base 10
    +17 (unarmored defense proficiency, master)
    +4 (monk)
    +6 (Vow of Peace, various)
    +10 (ascetic AC bonus)
    +3 (ascetic deflection)
    +2 (ascetic natural armor)
    +10 (wisdom; starting 18, add ascetic bonuses and every 4/levels)
    +6 (dexterity; starting 16 secondary ascetic ability bonus)

    68 AC, and I'm pretty sure you can have more on top of that.

    If it were possible to have Unarmored Defense Proficiency (master) and both Vows at level 1, which I know it isn't, that would be about 34 AC.
    L1 character: 1 feat
    HumanStrongheart Halfling: 1 feat (and +1 Size to AC, and +2 Dex)
    2 Flaws (the max allowed): 2 feats

    So, Sacred Vow + Vow of Poverty + Unarmored Defense Proficiency (Beginner) + Unarmored Defense Proficiency (Intermediate) at level 1. Level 2 you can pick up Vow of Peace as your Exalted Bonus feat, level 3 grab Unarmored Defense Proficiency (Master) and be golden.
    Last edited by Fax Celestis; 2007-04-27 at 11:27 AM.

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    Default Re: Does this feat seem overpowered?

    Fighter Level Requirement... Like Weapon Specialization.. That way, only Fighters (and, to a lesser extent, some Martial Adepts, or some Swashbuckler/Fighter mixes) have the abilities. Maybe allow the first one with a BAB +1, like Weapon Focus. Fighters need the boost.
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    Default Re: Does this feat seem overpowered?

    Except i did away with fighter only feats, giving them an appropiate BAB prerequisite where neccassary then letting fighters take feats with a BAB prerequisite at 2 BAB early

    so it don't help my table much ^_^

    But yeah the feat should at least say the bonus is lost while footfooted.

    EDIT: Also i just noted the shielded agility feat there lets you take a shield without losing the benefit of that feat either
    Last edited by Latronis; 2007-04-27 at 12:22 PM.

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Does this feat seem overpowered?

    Quote Originally Posted by Latronis View Post
    But yeah the feat should at least say the bonus is lost while footfooted.
    It also should not stack with bracers of armor.

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Does this feat seem overpowered?

    Yeah but that could be a translation error, rather then what was actually intended.

    A lot of the feats read like they were run through a translator or a not quite fluent English speaker

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Does this feat seem overpowered?

    Would it be broken as just an armor bonus? It would still apply to flatfooted attacks, but not touch attacks, and it couldn't stack with Bracers of Armor.

    If I used it with the character I am considering using it with(martial artist variant swordsage), it would give me 27 AC at level 6, is that too much? With a mithril shirt I currently only have 21.

  19. - Top - End - #19
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: Does this feat seem overpowered?

    Quote Originally Posted by Latronis View Post
    Yeah but that could be a translation error, rather then what was actually intended.

    A lot of the feats read like they were run through a translator or a not quite fluent English speaker
    Well, the website is german, so probably just a quick translation.

    Overall really, the feat(s) seem a little strong but definitely not overpowered, since they're going to be more helpful to melee characters anyway.

  20. - Top - End - #20
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: Does this feat seem overpowered?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fax_Celestis View Post
    L1 character: 1 feat
    HumanStrongheart Halfling: 1 feat (and +1 Size to AC, and +2 Dex)
    2 Flaws (the max allowed): 2 feats

    So, Sacred Vow + Vow of Poverty + Unarmored Defense Proficiency (Beginner) + Unarmored Defense Proficiency (Intermediate) at level 1. Level 2 you can pick up Vow of Peace as your Exalted Bonus feat, level 3 grab Unarmored Defense Proficiency (Master) and be golden.
    Lovely, except for Vow of Peace you need to take Vow of Nonviolence first, so you can't get all that until your next bonus exalted feat at 4th level.

  21. - Top - End - #21
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Does this feat seem overpowered?

    Actually, if you took Vow of Poverty at level 1 you get a bonus exalted feat, then at level 2 and every even level thereafter. It doesn't show it in the chart, but the text says it. So you could get it by level 2 if you took vow of non-violence as a bonus at level 1.

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    Default Re: Does this feat seem overpowered?

    Which would be super awesome if you weren't suddenly incapable of combat due to your feat choice :P

    I think this feat would be balanced with a level requirement and class restriction. That class being monk. Monks could use the extra power as it is.
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    RedSorcererGirl

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    Default Re: Does this feat seem overpowered?

    Massively overpowered. And forget level 1, look at it as you level up:
    At level 20, your base armor class is 27.

    Base.

    That applies to touch armor, flatfooted, everything.

    And you can add to it...deflection, dodge, natural, shield, luck...and dexterity. Unlimited dexterity bonuses...
    Last edited by Talya; 2007-04-27 at 05:15 PM.

  24. - Top - End - #24
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Does this feat seem overpowered?

    Hey, if you are going vow, you are probably a monk already. You can still deal non-lethal damage, and at no attack penalty. I think the needing to take everything prisoner and allies gaining penalties for killing is a problem though, unless your group wants things that way.

    I dunno, I was planning on taking it for my unarmed variant swordsage, though he could still wear Mithril Shirts and gain wisdom to AC with no check penalty, the feat would add a lot more. I think I'd leave it to monks though, my feat slots are pretty tied up on getting into Master of Nine, after which I can get some devoted spirit manuevers to keep me alive.

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    Default Re: Does this feat seem overpowered?

    This is overpowered, definitely is - but if someone needs help with german-english translation, IŽd probably be able to help.

    P.S.: Yes, that site is indeed german
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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: Does this feat seem overpowered?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deel View Post
    Actually, if you took Vow of Poverty at level 1 you get a bonus exalted feat, then at level 2 and every even level thereafter. It doesn't show it in the chart, but the text says it. So you could get it by level 2 if you took vow of non-violence as a bonus at level 1.
    True, true; I've played VoP characters before but I wasn't really thinking about it, just noticing that Fax didn't mention taking Vow of Nonviolence. So yes, you could get all of those benefits by level 3, for AC = 10 + 8 (unarmored defense prof) + 6 (vow of peace) + 3 (poverty Exalted bonus) + wis + dex. With 18s in wis and dex (+2 dex from strongheart), that's 35 AC at 3rd level


    Quote Originally Posted by Deel View Post
    Hey, if you are going vow, you are probably a monk already. You can still deal non-lethal damage, and at no attack penalty. I think the needing to take everything prisoner and allies gaining penalties for killing is a problem though, unless your group wants things that way.

    I dunno, I was planning on taking it for my unarmed variant swordsage, though he could still wear Mithril Shirts and gain wisdom to AC with no check penalty, the feat would add a lot more. I think I'd leave it to monks though, my feat slots are pretty tied up on getting into Master of Nine, after which I can get some devoted spirit manuevers to keep me alive.
    This is off-topic, but I'll digress for a moment. The problem here, and with Vow of Peace in general, is that your allies aren't allowed to hurt anyone either (actually from Vow of Nonviolence). If you have a whole party all taking those two feats, well fine then. It would be different from most D&D experiences, but it could be really fun and you have a bunch of AC.

  27. - Top - End - #27
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Does this feat seem overpowered?

    36, 1 more from Strongheart Halfling size. Yeah, and it just scales with VoP/Unarmored Master from there. I'd say if it was used it definitely needs to be made into an armor bonus.

  28. - Top - End - #28
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    Default Re: Does this feat seem overpowered?

    It's nor really broken and the sense that it breakes the game. It's just more powerful than most other combat oriented feats which makes it difficult to use in an actual game. You will get unarmoured character all the way. But still it helps meleers and gives virtually nothing to batman. CoDzilla is a problem, though.
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Does this feat seem overpowered?

    Am I missing something, or is it the case that nowhere in this thread is the feat actually named?

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    Dhavaer's Avatar

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    Default Re: Does this feat seem overpowered?

    Quote Originally Posted by Isomenes View Post
    Am I missing something, or is it the case that nowhere in this thread is the feat actually named?
    The builds named it. Unarmed Defence Proficiency (Master). Or, you could just look at the link in the OP.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClericofPhwarrr View Post
    Dhavaer, your ideas are like candy from the sky, sprinkled lightly with cinnamon.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll View Post
    Wow. Badass without being flashy and showy, attractive while remaining classy. Bravo Dhavaer.
    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    ...Why do I imagine you licking your lips and rubbing your hands together?

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