spider climb vs trip

[Thac0 Redeye]

I am DMing a campaign with a player who has a tripping barbarian with a spike chain. Last week I was running a vampire who at one point was spider climbing on the ceiling of his crypt. the player wanted to trip him so he would fall to the ground. At the time I ruled that he was using all 4 limbs like spiderman, so tripping wouldn't work. Was this the right call?
Thanks

[loky1109]

At the time I ruled that he was using all 4 limbs like spiderman, so tripping wouldn't work. Was this the right call?

I don't see connection between number of used limbs and working of trip.
Do you think you can't trip, example, horse, because it is using all 4 limbs?

UPD: +4 stability bonus - yes; immunity to trip - no.

[InvisibleBison]

The vampire's ability is based on the spider climb spell, which says "The affected creature must have its hands free to climb in this manner." To me, this suggests that the spell works by allowing your hands and feet to adhere to walls and ceilings, which in turn would mean that pulling a limb or two away from the wall or ceiling by tripping could make you fall. Essentially, you need several points of contact to maintain a grip on a wall, and tripping can deny you those points of contact.

[KillianHawkeye]

Using four or more limbs to move doesn't make you immune to trip, but it may provide a defensive bonus.

The defender gets a +4 bonus on his check if he has more than two legs or is otherwise more stable than a normal humanoid.

[Balthanon]

Using four or more limbs to move doesn't make you immune to trip, but it may provide a defensive bonus.

I could also see the fact that you're presumably anchored somehow to the ceiling rather than just holding on making it more difficult. Either requiring a separate Str check to overcome or just providing another +4 on the trip check.

[Fouredged Sword]

I could also see the fact that you're presumably anchored somehow to the ceiling rather than just holding on making it more difficult. Either requiring a separate Str check to overcome or just providing another +4 on the trip check.

Or you could say that because the moment they lose their grip they fall they are at a disadvantage.

It could go ether way or be a wash. When you run into a situation as a DM where factors could go ether way I feel it's best to just let the rules work as written and let the dice speak. If the players roll high and the monster rolls low, the situation was unfavorable to the monster. If the monster rolls well and the players roll badly, factors are favorable to resisting the trip.

[Kurald Galain]

I would argue that spider climb makes you stick to the wall (or ceiling), meaning you're not so much immune to any and all trip attempts, but you are immune to being dislodged from the ceiling like this.

[DigoDragon]

The vampire's ability is based on the spider climb spell, which says "The affected creature must have its hands free to climb in this manner." To me, this suggests that the spell works by allowing your hands and feet to adhere to walls and ceilings, which in turn would mean that pulling a limb or two away from the wall or ceiling by tripping could make you fall. Essentially, you need several points of contact to maintain a grip on a wall, and tripping can deny you those points of contact.

I agree with this assessment. It is how I have ruled tripping opponents using Spider Climb.

[KillianHawkeye]

I would argue that spider climb makes you stick to the wall (or ceiling), meaning you're not so much immune to any and all trip attempts, but you are immune to being dislodged from the ceiling like this.

If you couldn't be dislodged, it would mean that the sticking force was unbeatable. That's an unfounded assumption. I can knock a real spider off the ceiling easily.

[Kurald Galain]

I can knock a real spider off the ceiling easily.

You are several orders of magnitude bigger than the spider, and the barbarian is roughly the same size as the vampire. That doesn't strike me as a good comparison.

[loky1109]

If something didn't write in spell description - spell doesn't do it.

[Zanos]

RAW he would go prone on the ceiling. Tripping doesn't knock climbing creatures down, but spider climb provides no immunity to tripping.

RAI, spider climb allows you to climb as well as a spider does. So sure, there's some level of adherence, but even upscaled to a person it's not unbeatable. I'd use the standard trip mechanics with the +4 bonus to the defender for being "unusually stable or having more than 2 legs", and then he'd fall because by definition trip means that you lose your footing, which you need to retain for spider climb to work.

[InvisibleBison]

RAW he would go prone on the ceiling.

Where is that written? Spider climb doesn't change how gravity works.

[icefractal]

You are several orders of magnitude bigger than the spider, and the barbarian is roughly the same size as the vampire. That doesn't strike me as a good comparison.

You can often make spiders fall by throwing a small piece of wadded up paper at them (no more than twice their mass), as I've done when removing a spider that's up too high to reach. Actually big spiders usually fall more easily, if anything.

And they have eight legs, so twice as stable as said vampire.

[loky1109]

RAW he would go prone on the ceiling. Tripping doesn't knock climbing creatures down, but spider climb provides no immunity to tripping.

I was waiting this point.

Prone creature can move only 5 ft with full round, doesn't have Dex to AC, and attackers have +4 on melee against it.
No, vampire isn't prone on the ceiling.

[Fouredged Sword]

Where is that written? Spider climb doesn't change how gravity works.

Gravity isn't RAW. Technically Trip doesn't knock people down. It applies the prone condition to them. There is no rule that says you can't go prone while climbing.

[Kurald Galain]

Gravity isn't RAW. Technically Trip doesn't knock people down. It applies the prone condition to them. There is no rule that says you can't go prone while climbing.

Yes, that. If something didn't write in special attack description - special attack doesn't do it.

It doesn't make sense to simultaneously claim you MUST follow RAW-and-only-RAW regarding the Spider Climb spell, and then MUST apply common-sense-that's-not-written-down regarding the Trip special attack. This is a corner case either way, requiring a DM judgment call.

[loky1109]

Prone: Lying on the ground.

You can't lie on celling.

[Fouredged Sword]

You can't lie on celling.

Right. It may actually cause the vampire to teleport to the ground.

[loky1109]

Right. It may actually cause the vampire to teleport to the ground.

Do you know how find closest water in a desert?
You should summon crocodile and order it to grab you.

[Kurald Galain]

You can't lie on celling.

It makes sense, then, to rule that creatures on the ceiling can't be tripped, just like how swimming or burrowing or levitating creatures cannot be tripped.

But see? DM judgment call. You can't lie on the ceiling, so does this mean that you end up lying somewhere else (i.e. the ground), or that you end up not lying but still on the ceiling? Judgment call either way, don't pretend it's not.

[loky1109]

It makes sense, then, to rule that creatures on the ceiling can't be tripped, just like how swimming or burrowing or levitating creatures cannot be tripped.

Why can't? I don't see any problems in tripping swimming creature.

But see? DM judgment call. You can't lie on the ceiling, so does this mean that you end up lying somewhere else (i.e. the ground), or that you end up not lying but still on the ceiling? Judgment call either way, don't pretend it's not.

When you tripped you now prone. Prone is laying on ground. What questions?

[bean illus]

Oh, come on! Ridiculous.

Spider CLIMB allows CLIMBING.
Climbing by definition (and RAW) acknowledges gravity, and falling. There is no debate here.

There might be a debate about whether more than 2 legs counts as stability when climbing, due to the "or" clause in the stability rule. But as spider climb needs 3 hands minimum, i would rule that no stability is implied.

[Thac0 Redeye]

Thanks everyone for their input. I think (for my game) I'm going to rule that he can be tripped and if so drops to floor due to gravity. But will get a +8 to his trip str/dex check. (4 for multiple limbs and 4 for "adhesive" from the spiderclimb spell) this will also allow falling damage and follow all those rules.

thanks

[InvisibleBison]

[QUOTE=Fouredged Sword;25354411]Gravity isn't RAW.

This is not correct.

[Xervous]

Thanks everyone for their input. I think (for my game) I'm going to rule that he can be tripped and if so drops to floor due to gravity. But will get a +8 to his trip str/dex check. (4 for multiple limbs and 4 for "adhesive" from the spiderclimb spell) this will also allow falling damage and follow all those rules.

thanks

The spiderclimb spell is not sufficient to stick with two limbs. If it were I’d see reason enough for allowing some bonus there. If you could stick with one limb a bigger bonus sure. +8 on a vampire in this context is effectively a “don’t bother rolling” which has me wondering on the real intent.

[Balthanon]

The spiderclimb spell is not sufficient to stick with two limbs. If it were I’d see reason enough for allowing some bonus there. If you could stick with one limb a bigger bonus sure. +8 on a vampire in this context is effectively a “don’t bother rolling” which has me wondering on the real intent.

I mean... this helps the players at least as much going forward given that they have access to spider climb as well (whether through magic items or spells.) So long as it's applied consistently it doesn't matter what the final ruling is really.

[Fouredged Sword]

[QUOTE=InvisibleBison;25354549]

Gravity isn't RAW.

This is not correct.

Point to you, gravity is RAW, but has no effect on trip mechanics. It controls fall damage, encumbrance, and some skill modifiers.

[bean illus]

[QUOTE=Fouredged Sword;25355018]

Point to you, gravity is RAW, but has no effect on trip mechanics. It controls fall damage, encumbrance, and some skill modifiers.

That's a little like saying that gravity has no effect on movement, or range in dnd. In reality the effect of gravity is assumed throughout dnd, but rarely mentioned. The reason for this is that everyone knows how gravity works.

If you walk off a cliff, do you get to keep walking? You didn't "fall". You didn't trip. But we all know why spider climb, feather fall, and fly are spells. Because gravity.

We assume all normal effects of gravity in the game.