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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    DwarfBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: Myrrh, Frankincense, and Steel: Kurald Galain's Guide to the Magus

    Add in spell perfection disintegrate and prep 2 maximized disintegrates. Get the spell critical arcana and theoretically full attack +2 extra attacks + 2 maximized disintegrates at least one of which is critting. Not much will survive that, save or no.

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    Default Re: Myrrh, Frankincense, and Steel: Kurald Galain's Guide to the Magus

    Quote Originally Posted by AnonymousPepper View Post
    Also, as I recall, spells delivered in such a way use the weapon's crit range and mult, right? Meaning a critfishing magus is deadly as all get-out? A failed save versus a crit Disintegrate will kill just about anything that doesn't have Proof against Transmutation (and that'll smart even with a passed save), and expanding the range on that beyond the previously-achievable (Improved Critical: Ray) 19-20 into the ridiculous ranges achievable otherwise seems like an incredibly power thing.
    Only the Range, the multiplier is always x2.
    Yes, damage-wise a magus benefits incredibly from a high threat range, it's by design.

    Magus has one of the better damage outputs of the game, and there's a reason Magical Lineage(Shocking Grasp) + Intensify Spell is the core of its efficient damage output.

    The true power of the magus is still Spell Combat, however, since it's essentially an action multiplier.

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: Myrrh, Frankincense, and Steel: Kurald Galain's Guide to the Magus

    Quote Originally Posted by TheOneHawk View Post
    Also, I think Spellcraft deserves to be blue in skills for one simple reason. Spell Perfection is insane.
    I'll make a note on that, but it only applies for level 15 and up.

    Quote Originally Posted by AnonymousPepper View Post
    Also, as I recall, spells delivered in such a way use the weapon's crit range and mult, right?
    Yes, this is one of the main perks of the Magus. I'll need to add an intro section about this and its other class features.

    Also, the rest of the arcana (level 9-15) are up.
    Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.

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    Default Re: Myrrh, Frankincense, and Steel: Kurald Galain's Guide to the Magus

    ... Wait, Spellcraft isn't the highest color possible? Why not? Its your caster skill! Determines identifying spells, magic items (really important), making items if you invest in those feats...

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    Default Re: Myrrh, Frankincense, and Steel: Kurald Galain's Guide to the Magus

    I think the reason that Eldritch Scion is suprisingly weaker than normal Magus is because they were super frightened at the idea of giving another class Charisma as a primary ability score, it already put Bards drastically high on the playable class just because you can do more out of combat just by talking the GMs ear off!
    The biggest fix for me would be to change the "mystic focus" from 2 rounds to +1/4 level or something, even a minor boost would help I think.

    (Sorry off topic, keep it up OP I love me some Magus!)

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: Myrrh, Frankincense, and Steel: Kurald Galain's Guide to the Magus

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaxenomorph View Post
    ... Wait, Spellcraft isn't the highest color possible? Why not? Its your caster skill! Determines identifying spells, magic items (really important), making items if you invest in those feats...
    I would like to hear some more views on this, but generally in our games here (with a wide range of GMs) it doesn't come up nearly as much as Knowledge Arcana / Religion / Planes. Only one member in the party needs to be able to ID items, it doesn't have to be you. And in a handbook like this, it's hard to give a meaningful rating to crafting, since it depends heavily on the GM whether or not it's going to be an option in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dysart View Post
    I think the reason that Eldritch Scion is suprisingly weaker than normal Magus is because they were super frightened at the idea of giving another class Charisma as a primary ability score,
    Probably. But I think they're not as bad as they sound, as long as you avoid arcana and items that require a swift action. At level 4, you should have 8 rounds of focus per day (12 with the extra pool feat) which should cover most of your combats for the day. At level 8, you can spell combat normally, and it ceases being an issue (at that point, you can just spend points on focus to e.g. enlarge yourself). Bear in mind that getting a bloodrager bloodline is a good thing here.
    Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.

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  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: Myrrh, Frankincense, and Steel: Kurald Galain's Guide to the Magus

    Also, archetypes are now up. I expect (and welcome) that there'll be some discussion on these!

    In brief, the best ones are Beastblade, Bladebound, Hexcrafter, and Kensai; whereas the worst are Greensting, Soul Forger, and Spellblade. A couple of them have level-dependent ratings; for example, the aforementioned Eldritch Scion gets quite a bit better at level 8, when it's allowed to spell combat without entering its focus.

    This was the biggest and hardest section of the guidebook, so enjoy!
    Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.

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    "You give up the iconic spellstrike feature in exchange for the ability to attack an extra time per round, which you could already do with spellstrike anyway."

    Well the idea is that if you're going Spellblade, you'd be dedicating yourself to a TWF style, and therefore you'd be getting more than one extra attack.

    While I agree that Spellblade is a small step down I think you're being harsh. What it is, is situational - if you optimize for a TWF style (e.g. GTWF + Piranha Strike) it can be pretty beneficial, i.e. letting you contribute to combat while conserving your spell slots and pool. You create the athame, buff up and go to town in a large combat without casting anything further unless you need to. The athame is a free ghost touch weapon that ignores DR as well.

    Spellblade Parry is worthy of note because it boosts your touch AC and CMD as well. My main issues with it are that it won't stack with other deflection bonuses (so if you get deflection elsewhere it's useless) and that it doesn't apply to ranged attacks/rays for no good reason.
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    Default Re: Myrrh, Frankincense, and Steel: Kurald Galain's Guide to the Magus

    Thought I'd add some info that might make you change your mind on how you rank Ki Arcana. Perhaps, maybe get it to Ki Arcana or Ki Arcana.

    It is situational but allows for a recharge mechanic with your Arcane Pool.

    1) Worship Irori
    2) Have a source of channel positive energy
    3) Take Ki Channel
    -- You know have a way to recharge the Ki Pool of others --
    4) Get a Ki Pool yourself
    5) Take Ki Arcana
    -- Have fun using Ki to fuel your Arcane Pool and recharging it when you get low. The more D6's you roll for channel, the more Ki you recharge.

    Possible tips for the VMC section that makes use of this? VMC Monk becomes useful for those Kensai Magus that dip for Channeling. Throwing VMC Magus onto a Warpriest Sacred Fist build is fun. First Magus Arcana is available at level 7, exactly when the Sacred first gets a Ki Pool. And you don't need to have a Ki Pool to take Ki Channel, allowing it as a 5th level feat, just after you get to channel energy with fervor
    Last edited by Eldonauran; 2015-06-30 at 05:38 PM.

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    Default Re: Myrrh, Frankincense, and Steel: Kurald Galain's Guide to the Magus

    I think the problem there is, how do you intend to get a channel source and a ki pool and be sufficiently a magus all in one?

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    Quote Originally Posted by masterjoda99 View Post
    I think the problem there is, how do you intend to get a channel source and a ki pool and be sufficiently a magus all in one?
    Depends on what your options are. I just wanted to offer a possible situation where Ki Arcana wouldn't be a horrible choice. You can spend 3 levels or use VMC options.

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    Default Re: Myrrh, Frankincense, and Steel: Kurald Galain's Guide to the Magus

    I like handbooks. They make me happy.

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    Default Re: Myrrh, Frankincense, and Steel: Kurald Galain's Guide to the Magus

    While Card Caster isn't fantastic, I would argue that it is superior to the Myrmidarch for thrown weapon users, because it allows for touch or ranged spells, not just ranged touch and rays. It also gives up fewer features, and retains the majority of its arcanas.

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    Default Re: Myrrh, Frankincense, and Steel: Kurald Galain's Guide to the Magus

    Plus, you're gambit.

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    Default Re: Myrrh, Frankincense, and Steel: Kurald Galain's Guide to the Magus

    Ah, now all the interesting combos come up. Good!

    (edit) Thanks for the feedback. Also, first set of feats is up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doctarro View Post
    While Card Caster isn't fantastic, I would argue that it is superior to the Myrmidarch for thrown weapon users, because it allows for touch or ranged spells, not just ranged touch and rays. It also gives up fewer features, and retains the majority of its arcanas.
    Good point.

    Upon further investigation, Myrmidarch is worse than I thought, because it can't attach a touch attack to an arrow; you can only attach a ranged spell to an arrow, which increases its range at the cost of accuracy (since it now targets regular AC instead of touch AC). That's not a great deal; if you want more range, either use Reach Spell or spells that have medium range to begin with. And oddly enough, Spell Combat requires a melee weapon, and Myrmidarch doesn't change that (nor does Card Caster and nor does Throwing Magus).

    On the other hand, the Card Caster can actually attach any touch attack to a thrown weapon to increase its range to at least 20'; even though the rest of the archetype is not so great, this ability is good and he doesn't give up a lot for it (and can still take Hexblade, Kensai, or Staff Magus if so inclined). The only issue here is that a javelin or chakram is still a better weapon than playing cards. Ok, I'll give this some more room for discussion and then adjust the ratings accordingly.


    Quote Originally Posted by Eldonauran View Post
    -- Have fun using Ki to fuel your Arcane Pool and recharging it when you get low. The more D6's you roll for channel, the more Ki you recharge.
    Could you explain how you would use this in practice?

    The way I see it, a warpriest can indeed benefit from recharging his ki with Irori's channeling, but he doesn't need a Magus arcana to do so. On the other hand, a Magus could dip one level into cleric and two into ninja to gain channel and ki, and can then recover about two pool points per day... or he could simply take three more levels in Magus (which gives +1 pool) and the Extra Pool feat for +2 more. So it seems to me that he doesn't really benefit from this trick.


    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    While I agree that Spellblade is a small step down I think you're being harsh. What it is, is situational - if you optimize for a TWF style (e.g. GTWF + Piranha Strike) it can be pretty beneficial,
    Could you explain further how this combo works?

    GTWF requires level 15. At that point, you could spend two feats/arcana on precise strike have an attack routine of +9/+9 (spellstrike)/+9 (haste)/+4/-1 for 1d6+15 (precise strike)+7 (dex)+5 (magic weapon), or 30.5 average damage. This could be boosted further by taking e.g. Bladebound or Kensai, and you can do it all day; you also have the option of using spellstrike for an actual damage spell.

    Or you could spend four feats on TWF/ITWF/GTWF/Piranha Strike and have an attack routine of +6/+6 (haste)/+6/+1/+1/-4/-4 for 1d6+18 on your primary (+7 dex, +5 magic, +6 piranha for 21.5 average), 1d4+7 on your secondary (+4 magic, only +3 from piranha, for an average 9.5). This doesn't strike me as a good deal; even in the best-case scenario (if all your attacks connect, which really isn't likely with the penalties from piranha), you're looking at 114.5 average damage vs 152.5 for the regular Magus.

    Spellblade Parry is worthy of note because it boosts your touch AC and CMD as well. My main issues with it are that it won't stack with other deflection bonuses (so if you get deflection elsewhere it's useless) and that it doesn't apply to ranged attacks/rays for no good reason.
    Two of the most common defensive measures, a Ring of Protection and the Protection From Evil spell line, both already give a deflection bonus.
    Last edited by Kurald Galain; 2015-07-01 at 08:10 AM.
    Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.

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    Default Re: Myrrh, Frankincense, and Steel: Kurald Galain's Guide to the Magus

    Which Precise Strike do you mean? The teamwork feat?

    And you can get way more attacks with a TWF magus than you've listed there. For instance, any natural weapons you have from your race or buffs can get thrown into the mix, whereas they can't with normal spell combat unless you take Natural Spell Combat, and that only applies to one natural weapon at a time. For example, a Spellblade Magus using Monstrous Physique 2 to become a Tikbalang will get a bite and two hooves, plus still get to use his weapons (including the athame) - all finessable, all with reach, all boosted by piranha strike (50% for the athame and the 3 naturals), plus pounce. Throw in Multiattack and all those additional swings are at a decent +4 (+3 with the size penalty.) And all that is from a single spell.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Which Precise Strike do you mean? The teamwork feat?

    And you can get way more attacks with a TWF magus than you've listed there. For instance, any natural weapons you have from your race or buffs can get thrown into the mix, whereas they can't with normal spell combat unless you take Natural Spell Combat, and that only applies to one natural weapon at a time. For example, a Spellblade Magus using Monstrous Physique 2 to become a Tikbalang will get a bite and two hooves, plus still get to use his weapons (including the athame) - all finessable, all with reach, all boosted by piranha strike (50% for the athame and the 3 naturals), plus pounce. Throw in Multiattack and all those additional swings are at a decent +4 (+3 with the size penalty.) And all that is from a single spell.
    I need to look into this. That sounds wicked cool, if very high level to pull off.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Which Precise Strike do you mean? The teamwork feat?

    And you can get way more attacks with a TWF magus than you've listed there. For instance, any natural weapons you have from your race or buffs can get thrown into the mix, whereas they can't with normal spell combat unless you take Natural Spell Combat, and that only applies to one natural weapon at a time. For example, a Spellblade Magus using Monstrous Physique 2 to become a Tikbalang will get a bite and two hooves, plus still get to use his weapons (including the athame) - all finessable, all with reach, all boosted by piranha strike (50% for the athame and the 3 naturals), plus pounce. Throw in Multiattack and all those additional swings are at a decent +4 (+3 with the size penalty.) And all that is from a single spell.
    I'm guessing he is talking about the swashbucker's deed, getting level to damage is awesome.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheOneHawk View Post
    I need to look into this. That sounds wicked cool, if very high level to pull off.
    You can do this one as early as 10 so it's not that high really. And you can use your natural weapons in a full-attack before that, "pouncing" with things like Force Hook Charge at 7.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dusk Eclipse View Post
    I'm guessing he is talking about the swashbucker's deed, getting level to damage is awesome.
    Ah, I see now. Indeed, that's a good combo. It does however require using up two arcana and the most DR/hardness-resistant damage type.

    The way I see it, Spellblade can be useful on a Magus that needs to be more of a utility caster for the group, say in a T3-or-lower-only game. They have fewer spell slots to spellstrike with because they have to prepare some measure of utility spells too, and they need arcana that boost their utility like Spell Blending and Familiar. So being able to get the most bang for their spell slot buck would be vital - buffing and full-attacking with "TWF" while still being able to cast spells as needed.

    I fully agree that the base magus is stronger, but Spellblade can be optimized decently if you know what you're doing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctarro View Post
    While Card Caster isn't fantastic, I would argue that it is superior to the Myrmidarch for thrown weapon users, because it allows for touch or ranged spells, not just ranged touch and rays. It also gives up fewer features, and retains the majority of its arcanas.
    Card Caster is....awkward.

    One of the things I found was that you can use an alchemist flask for the ranged spellstrike.Which is nifty.

    The awkward part of it is that I believe by RAW the spell transfers to the splash damage as well FOR FULL EFFECT and no reflex save for half.

    It also says "any touch or RANGED Spell" for its Harrowed spellstrike.
    Although, I just place that under poor editing.

    Finally, I believe that the player companion product threads actually have the freelance developers commenting on anything awkward about their archetypes. So they might be good for a little bit of context or insight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    Could you explain how you would use this in practice?

    The way I see it, a warpriest can indeed benefit from recharging his ki with Irori's channeling, but he doesn't need a Magus arcana to do so. On the other hand, a Magus could dip one level into cleric and two into ninja to gain channel and ki, and can then recover about two pool points per day... or he could simply take three more levels in Magus (which gives +1 pool) and the Extra Pool feat for +2 more. So it seems to me that he doesn't really benefit from this trick.
    Sure.

    Having both a Ki Pool and an Arcane Pool means you could effectively have twice the amount of points to work with. You can activate your Arcane Pool abilities with Ki and you can recharge Ki. Slap on an item that boosts your total healing, like Phylactery of Positive Channeling, and you can recharge multiple Ki per burst. If you have fellow Ki users in the party, they will love you.

    It is definitely a niche ability. An Eldritch Scion that dips Ninja could realistically have a Ki Pool of 4. A dip of cleric could give 6/day channel energy. Combined with the Phylactery, that is potentially 18 Ki you can recharge a day. If you are willing to spare 4 levels towards this, a 2 ninja / 2 witch (hex channeler) will net you channeling with the option of increasing the healing dice by taking extra hex feat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post

    Good point.

    Upon further investigation, Myrmidarch is worse than I thought, because it can't attach a touch attack to an arrow; you can only attach a ranged spell to an arrow, which increases its range at the cost of accuracy (since it now targets regular AC instead of touch AC). That's not a great deal; if you want more range, either use Reach Spell or spells that have medium range to begin with. And oddly enough, Spell Combat requires a melee weapon, and Myrmidarch doesn't change that (nor does Card Caster and nor does Throwing Magus).

    On the other hand, the Card Caster can actually attach any touch attack to a thrown weapon to increase its range to at least 20'; even though the rest of the archetype is not so great, this ability is good and he doesn't give up a lot for it (and can still take Hexblade, Kensai, or Staff Magus if so inclined). The only issue here is that a javelin or chakram is still a better weapon than playing cards. Ok, I'll give this some more room for discussion and then adjust the ratings accordingly.
    With the Spell Combat problem, I think that it can still work with something like a dagger, a melee weapon that has a ranged increment, that can still be thrown. Spell Combat only stipulates that the melee weapon is held and used for the attacks, and not that they have to be melee attacks. This also allows for the modified Spellstrike to work well with Spell Combat.

    For another option on ranged touch attack spells for the likes of the Card Caster and the Myrmidarch, I would look at Snowball, as shown in Forger's Updated Guide to the Magus. It has the same scaling as Shocking Grasp, but it has no SR, which is big.

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    Default Re: Myrrh, Frankincense, and Steel: Kurald Galain's Guide to the Magus

    If you go by JJ's ruling here, Frostbite becomes a great spell for a magus. I use Empowered Frostbite in half of my 3rd level slots to add (1d6+level)*1.5 to all my attacks for a whole combat.

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    Default Re: Myrrh, Frankincense, and Steel: Kurald Galain's Guide to the Magus

    Quote Originally Posted by Deadkitten View Post
    One of the things I found was that you can use an alchemist flask for the ranged spellstrike.Which is nifty.
    Nice trick. A net also works.

    It also says "any touch or RANGED Spell" for its Harrowed spellstrike.
    Although, I just place that under poor editing.
    Indeed, I don't really see the point of using harrowed spellstrike with a spell that's already ranged.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldonauran View Post
    It is definitely a niche ability. An Eldritch Scion that dips Ninja could realistically have a Ki Pool of 4. A dip of cleric could give 6/day channel energy.
    This is definitely a fun combo. However, I see it as more of a niche build (ki battery + a party with other ki users) than as something for a broad class guide. I'd say that in general, a Magus benefits more from four extra levels in Magus than from a combo that gives more arcana points than he really needs.

    Quote Originally Posted by thisisacat View Post
    If you go by JJ's ruling here, Frostbite becomes a great spell for a magus.
    Indeed. Even without that ruling, it's still a very nice pick. That goes on the list of spells.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doctarro View Post
    With the Spell Combat problem, I think that it can still work with something like a dagger, a melee weapon that has a ranged increment, that can still be thrown. Spell Combat only stipulates that the melee weapon is held and used for the attacks, and not that they have to be melee attacks.
    This feels like something that many GMs would ban. I'm not a fan of writing a handbook based on ambiguous rules.

    For another option on ranged touch attack spells for the likes of the Card Caster and the Myrmidarch, I would look at Snowball
    Yes, Snowball is a great spell, regardless of your archetype. That one also goes on the list.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    And you can get way more attacks with a TWF magus than you've listed there. For instance, any natural weapons you have from your race or buffs can get thrown into the mix, whereas they can't with normal spell combat unless you take Natural Spell Combat, and that only applies to one natural weapon at a time.
    Well, if one build can afford to spend three feats on TWF/ITWF/GTWF, then the other can afford to spend three feats on Natural Spell Combat; and if conserving spell slots is the goal, then a spellstrike build does that better than a build that spends spell slots on conjuring a dagger.

    I completely agree that a multiattacking natural weapon Magus is a great combo (that should go in the builds list later); but I'm don't see how Spellblade really adds to that. A bunch of natural attacks plus spellstrike still strikes me as more effective than a bunch of natural attacks plus a conjured dagger. For example, try stacking multiattacks with Frostbite, or with one of the Eldritch Scion's "do nasty stuff on a crit" bloodlines...
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    Default Re: Myrrh, Frankincense, and Steel: Kurald Galain's Guide to the Magus

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    This is definitely a fun combo. However, I see it as more of a niche build (ki battery + a party with other ki users) than as something for a broad class guide. I'd say that in general, a Magus benefits more from four extra levels in Magus than from a combo that gives more arcana points than he really needs.
    Yeah, it is quite possibly more Arcane Points than really needed. However, should you play a Magus that doesn't give up spell recall or spell knowledge ... It serves to drastically improve your spell recharge mechanic, meaning the Magus can "Nova" multiple times per day.

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    Default Re: Myrrh, Frankincense, and Steel: Kurald Galain's Guide to the Magus

    FYI half-elf trade skilled for ancestral arms, not elven immunities, so you can get both EWP and +2 to will.
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    Default Re: Myrrh, Frankincense, and Steel: Kurald Galain's Guide to the Magus

    Quote Originally Posted by 9mm View Post
    FYI half-elf trade skilled for ancestral arms, not elven immunities, so you can get both EWP and +2 to will.
    Both race traits swap out Adaptability, sadly.

    Ancestral Arms Some half-elves receive training in an unusual weapon. Half-elves with this racial trait receive Exotic Weapon Proficiency or Martial Weapon Proficiency with one weapon as a bonus feat at 1st level. This racial trait replaces the adaptability racial trait.
    Dual Minded The mixed ancestry of some half-elves makes them resistant to mental attacks. Half-elves with this racial trait gain a +2 bonus on all Will saving throws. This racial trait replaces the adaptability racial trait.
    Kensai get Exotic Weapons from class, so they can do both, in a sense.
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    Default Re: Myrrh, Frankincense, and Steel: Kurald Galain's Guide to the Magus

    Quote Originally Posted by Yanisa View Post
    Both race traits swap out Adaptability, sadly.




    Kensai get Exotic Weapons from class, so they can do both, in a sense.
    I keep forgetting Dual minded exists, mostly because elven imunities gives a +2 on the will saves you absolutely care about, the ones that make you murder your teammates.
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    Default Re: Myrrh, Frankincense, and Steel: Kurald Galain's Guide to the Magus

    All feats are up.

    In summary, the best magic feats are Dimensional Agility, Intensify Spell, and Spell Perfection; whereas the best weapon feats are Lunge or Lunging Spell Touch (and, for a dex magus, finesse + dervish, of course). Feedback and other suggestions welcome; for obvious reasons I'm not going to list every feat in the book, there's way too many of those.
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    Default Re: Myrrh, Frankincense, and Steel: Kurald Galain's Guide to the Magus

    As a general note, I've got a Magus in a group I play with on Thursdays who makes good use of the Shocking Grasp schtick - doesn't hurt that the GM's both houseruled away crit confirmations and made crits autohit, which makes critfishing OP as all get-out. But he's started to run into something shutting his damage down pretty hard - namely, spell resistance. Shocking Grasp is SR:Yes, which means that any creature that has level-appropriate SR, of which there's quite a few, stands a very fair chance of saying nope to his main damage output. What I'm saying is, I'd make it pretty clear that if somebody's going to rely on SG, they should be sure they've got a couple boosts handy to get through SR if they need to. Not sure what, aside from basic CL boosts, but it bears looking into.

    Also, electricity resistance/immunity is a thing. Lesser Rods of Elemental Spell are cheap - 3k - and highly useful for dealing with this from mid-levels up; at that price tag, it's well worth it to have a couple of each other type handy, or potentially even learn the feat, if you know specifically what type of baddie with resistance electricity you'll be running up against a lot. It may do a lot less damage than Intensified SG, but half of full damage is better than none of full-and-a-half.
    Last edited by AnonymousPepper; 2015-07-06 at 08:32 AM.

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