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    Default [Dreamscarred Press] Path of War: Expanded! (Discussion Thread VI)

    The Path of War continues onward!

    Within the pages of this tome, your options for martial characters more than double! Within Path of War Expanded you will find more maneuvers, stances, and feats for your existing martial disciples as well as a host of new options! There are new classes, archetypes, martial traditions, and even the new class template that provides a way to use a single archetype for different character classes.

    Within Path of War Expanded, you will find:

    • Three new base classes, from the ill-omened harbinger, to the psychic zealot, and finally the arcane mystic who all mix supernatural elements into their martial combat styles.
    • Nine new martial disciplines
    • A host of archetypes for the three classes from Path of War and the three new classes
    • Martial archetypes for core classes
    • Class templates, which provides archetypes that work across multiple classes
    • Martial style feats
    • More martial traditions


    And new and optional rules and clarifications to martial combat that will take your martial characters to a whole new level!
    Come and enjoy the spoils of battle with Path of War Expanded!

    Table of Contents for the project:

    - The Harbinger, a melee control class that uses superior mobility and crippling status effects to command the battlefield. These warriors understand grief and anger on a personal level and translate that understanding into deadly curses and reality-warping swordplay. Harbinger also has two archetypes available in beta. The Crimson Countess emphasizes the Claim mechanic to take her rage out on her victims, while the Ravenlord creates a shadowy servant that aids him in battle. A new archetype, the Bleak Emissary, is available for beta testing. The Omen Rider archetype, a mounted warrior archetype, is available for beta testing. Harbinger introduces two new disciplines: Cursed Razor and Shattered Mirror

    - The Zealot, a psionic guardian who leads his party into battle with the power of his passions and their own collective bond. These psionic initiators augment their maneuvers with power points and aid their party members with telepathy. Zealot introduces the Eternal Guardian and Sleeping Goddess disciplines. Zealot archetypes are found within this document.

    - The Mystic, a melee support class that uses unstable arcane energies to unleash beneficial magic on his allies and scourge his enemies with the power of the elements. Mystics are founts of energy that they vent through martial discipline and intuition rather than through spells. Mystic will introduce the Elemental Flux and Riven Hourglass disciplines. Mystic archetypes are found at the bottom of the document.

    But wait, there's more!

    - Dreamscarred Press is happy to announce Class Templates, archetypes that can be applied to more than one class. Class Templates represent ideas too broad for a single-class archetype, letting you create very different versions of the same somewhat broad idea. The three introduced in Path of War Expanded are the Bushi, Privateer, and Hussar, for all of your samurai, pirate, and mounted warrior needs. At the end of the document you'll find the Mithral Current discipline as well.

    Discipline List! (in no particular order)

    - The Eternal Guardian discipline

    -The Sleeping Goddess discipline

    - The Cursed Razor discipline

    - The Shattered Mirror discipline

    - The Mithral Current discipline

    - The Riven Hourglass discipline, available for open beta.

    - The Elemental Flux discipline is available for open beta.

    - Piercing Thunder is available for open beta.

    - Tempest Gale, a new ranged discipline, is now in beta!

    ---
    Prestige Classes!
    Animus Adept - Here! Have some glyphs!
    Phoenix Champion - Silver Crane fun with bows!
    The Landsknect - Einhander defender!

    Other Stuff!

    Path of War Expanded - Systems and Use Expanded - Favored class bonuses, new options for old classes, and more!


    Path of War: Expanded Archetypes Document


    All the Feats for Path of War: Expanded!

    Martial Tradition

    - On the agenda: Favored class and racial abilities, traits, more feats, prestige classes, monster stuff, and more!

    Dreamscarred Press - FAQ! Check out the answers here!

    ----

    Thread1, Thread2, Thread3, Thread4, Thread5, Thread6

    It's been an amazing ride so far, and the support from the community for this project has been overwhelming and very touching. We couldn't have gotten this far without you guys, and I hope the Path of War line can continue to be an addition to your tables. With that said, I declare this thread to be officially open!
    Last edited by ErrantX; 2015-08-24 at 10:43 AM.
    Chris Bennett
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    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: [Dreamscarred Press] Path of War: Expanded! (Discussion Thread VI)

    Quote Originally Posted by AGrinningCat View Post
    Pathwalker Feedback:
    New disciplines available - The Pathwalker gains Sleeping Goddess as a class discipline, regardless of what paths he chooses. He may also add the following to the list of disciplines he may choose his other two selections from: Mithral Current, Piercing Thunder, or Tempest Gale.
    Sleeping Goddess works; and makes sense.
    I'm kinda sad that Pathwalker doesn't have access to the explicitly supernatural Disciplines like Elemental Flux or Riven Hourglass -- It'd make all the sense in the world for them to have access to it. It's a weird theme that I'd like to see discontinued (Why is the Pathwalker so set on separating her martial from her psionics and not making them as one?)
    Maneuver Recovery Errata - When manifesting powers during your maneuver recovery, your maximum level for the power manifested cannot exceed ½ of the maximum power level that you can manifest (rounded down). Example: If the pathwalker can manifest a 5th level power, he could manifest a power during recovery with a level no greater than 2nd level. Powers with a duration greater than instant have their durations shortened as well, equaling 1 + your Wisdom modifier in rounds (unless the duration would be shorter manifested normally).
    For what purpose? Was this even an issue? This seems largely unnecessary and prevents you from manifesting anything until you've hit 4th level.
    Sleeping Goddess Path
    Bonus class skill: Autohypnosis
    Powers: astral construct, call weaponry
    Skills: Autohypnosis, Diplomacy, Sense Motive
    Trance: Beginning at 3rd level, while the pathwalker maintains psionic focus and while in a Sleeping Goddess Stance he gains a +1 bonus on attack rolls made with weapons created by the call weaponry power or the call the soul’s blade stance. This bonus increases by +1 for every four psychic warrior levels.
    Maneuver: Beginning at 3rd level, as a swift action, the pathwalker can expend his psionic focus to feint one opponent in his threatened area with a +2 bonus on the check. This bonus increases by +1 for every five class levels. The feint attempt does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
    Astral construct may be a bit strong here.
    Is the Maneuver supposed be a copy/paste of Mithral Current's? Cause if it is, it's a damn shame and I'd like to request a different one, considering there's so much design space for it (In both what's allowed, compared to previous Pathwalker paths, and what Sleeping Goddess can do).
    Posting for the new thread.

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    Default Re: [Dreamscarred Press] Path of War: Expanded! (Discussion Thread VI)

    Sidebar: The Elements and Solar Wind
    Currently the sidebar is full of awesome flavor, but doesn't actually use any of the energy type keywords to confirm/clarify exactly what type of energy the user may be trading for.

    I'd like to suggest noting the keywords next to each element path name, for example:

    ...the frozen fjords and frigid taigas comes the icy Glacial Frost variant (Cold). From the tropical forests of the world comes the corrosive Virulent Spray variant (Acid).


    When a character possesses the Solar Wind discipline you may decide which of the variants used by that character to change the standard elemental damage type associated with Solar Wind.
    This sentence doesn't read well to me; seems like it needs a 'to' in there or something.

    Possible rewarding:
    When a character possesses the Solar Wind discipline you may decide which variant (if any) is used by that character, changing the standard elemental damage type associated with Solar Wind to that of the variant chosen.
    Last edited by ATalsen; 2015-06-25 at 12:58 PM.

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    Default Re: [Dreamscarred Press] Path of War: Expanded! (Discussion Thread VI)

    Changes to some of the FCBs to hammer out weirdness that apparently creeped up in there. Fixed some of the stronger (read as: OP!!!) FCBs as well.

    Stalker Arts: Changed Fear Monger to give Dazzling Display and access to Black Seraph, and Graceful Killer to limit to ANY ONE weapon - regardless if it can be finessed normally or not.

    Added some info for Bannerman and also clarified Variable Wind feat.

    Fixed the warlord presences and the gambits from feedback suggested.

    @Nyaa - Variable Wind is needed for manifesters or anyone else who wants to change up at will, otherwise you can simply pick what version of Solar Wind you know. Mystics can use their Elemental Attunement to change it, or use Variable Wind.

    @AGrinningCat - Yes there was a problem. People were manifesting some crazy stuff with it freely and it needed locking down. You can manifest from 1st level powers initially for free on your recovery actions, and then as you advance it increases. I don't see how that's cruel - that's free manifesting, recovery of manaeuvers. It was pretty easily abusable since we don't have a silly provision to say you can't use your recovery method outside of combat. Pathwalker alone would have benefit for doing so though, pregaming like a crazy person.

    Also changed the Sleeping Goddess Path a bit.

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    Default Re: [Dreamscarred Press] Path of War: Expanded! (Discussion Thread VI)

    Maneuver: Beginning at 3rd level, as a swift action, the pathwalker can expend his psionic focus to create a field of defensive psychic force through his skin and body, increasing the pathwalker’s natural armor bonus by +2 . This bonus increases by +1 for every five class levels.
    Can we assume this is permanent?
    Also any note about the Pathwalker not getting the actual supernatural disciplines?
    Last edited by AGrinningCat; 2015-06-25 at 01:12 PM.

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    Default Re: [Dreamscarred Press] Path of War: Expanded! (Discussion Thread VI)

    Quote Originally Posted by ErrantX View Post
    Fixed the warlord presences and the gambits from feedback suggested.
    Flanker’s Gambit
    Risk: The warlord successfully attacks a flanked enemy engaged in combat with one of his allies.
    Reward: The warlord and his flanking ally are considered to be flanking the target until the end of their next turn, even if the they would not normally be in a position to flank the target.
    I think this was changed to try to avoid ranged attacks? But now its just kind of weird.

    So now a Warlord can only use the gambit if their target is flanked (either by themselves and an ally, or by 2 allies). In the event that its 2 allies flanking, the warlord can still use ranged attacks to fulfill the Gambit, but now has to interpret the Reward oddly: since we know that there are 3 parties (Ranged Warlord & 2 flankers), and the Reward section only specifies 2 (Warlord & Ally), do we now have to choose which ally gets the ‘free’ flanking?

    Or, if that "one ally" was actually meant as a restriction (one and ONLY one, which is a problem since you are your own ally), that means that an opponent flanked by 2 of your allies can't be targeted by this, which is not intuitive.


    If we wanted to avoid ranged, just say it requires a melee attack:

    Risk: The warlord successfully executes a melee attack against a flanked enemy.

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    Default Re: [Dreamscarred Press] Path of War: Expanded! (Discussion Thread VI)

    Typo, add "it":
    Archetypes - When selecting an archetype that causes you to trade disciplines and potentially your class skill set changes, treat it the same as with traditions unless otherwise stated (some archetypes will retain a specific skill if it helps the archetype fulfill its job whereas others would remove the skill if it’s no longer necessary to fill the role of the archetype).

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    Default Re: [Dreamscarred Press] Path of War: Expanded! (Discussion Thread VI)

    Concerning the Racial Favored Class Bonuses, what if every race had attached to it a specific discipline that it could apply a FCB to to? For example Lets say that Dwarf Had Iron Tortoise. If a Dwarf were to level into any of the Martial Initiator classes (which it names as its favored class) it could choose to get 1/6th Learn an Iron Tortoise Maneuver of which it meets the prerequisites, if it were to level into Stalker, Warder, Warlord, or Zealot (of which they named as a favored class) it could choose between the two favored class benefits.

    i.e. A Dwarf Warder (Favored Class Warder) could choose whenever it gains a level in the class to either gain the +1/4th AC with Aegis, or get +1/6th Iron Tortoise Maneuver Known to which it meets the prerequisites.

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    Default Re: [Dreamscarred Press] Path of War: Expanded! (Discussion Thread VI)

    Favored Discipline Bonus.

    Instead of taking a FCB, you may instead gain a FDB.
    Mithral Current: +1/2 damage on the first attack made out of a draw
    Black Seraph: +1/2 to intimidation checks when using Black Seraph maneuvers
    Sleeping Goddess: +1 to all craft checks to making comfortable bedding
    etc

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    Default Re: [Dreamscarred Press] Path of War: Expanded! (Discussion Thread VI)

    Ok, looking back through the Style feats with what we know now. Not going to star-rate them, just putting up thoughts. Time is short, so I may not finish before I have to hit Post, will do so later tonight if possible. if you see asterisks, it is one I think needs close attention for some reason or another.

    Black Seraph: For any Dread or Tyranny Daevic that can afford it (and many who really can't), getting this full chain is critical. Long story short, it enables Fear tactics on the multitude of foes normally immune eventually, and gives excellent bonuses for anyone who can keep them up.
    Style- Shore up your defenses, which makes the setup time worth it. Fear-users tend to be either tanks or very squishy (or, oddly, BOTH in the case of some Dreads).
    Malevolence- Useless for anyone who isn't deep into Black Seraph (but those will still take it as an acceptable feat tax for Eradication), but dramatic in the hands of a full-initiator specialized in the school.
    Eradication- pretty much the defining reason to take the Style is to get this. Anything that kills immunities is pure gold for a specialist, especially when the immunities are as common as Fear and Mind-Affecting

    Broken Blade: One of the weaker PoW Styles, this one tends to give niche benefits. Generally won't be worth the price of entry for people who aren't naturally initiators, and those who are will probably only nab the Style. Notably one one of the best offensive Disciplines, though.
    Style- Ignoring up to 10 DR/- is excellent, but any DR that is able to be penetrated at all is likely to be cut through regularly. Unarmed sometimes has issues here, though, so it is understood.
    Crush- Useless against monsters, and destroys valuable loot when it connects. Pass.
    Rhythm- Free combat maneuver attempts whenever you hit with a Broken Blade maneuver can be made to break, given the number of hits you can regularly generate. Some minor investment into Tripping to get to the 1/4 success rate will turn this into "anything with legs falls"

    Cursed Razor: Only useful to dedicated Cursed Razor practitioners, but highly powerful for them.
    Style- The Bleed damage is minor, but can turn the tide or force enemies to waste actions. Not bad
    *Plague*- Any Save or SR on this effect? Is it the full effects of the Curse, or just the Cursed status? Either way, it's a good take, since you need those curses to keep rolling whether they have any real effect or not.
    Massacre- Unsure if this stacks with haste, which is the line between this being really good or way too strong.

    *Elemental Flux*: the advent of Elements As One has made this chain much less attractive, and it conflicts with itself on a couple of points.
    Style- It is a truism that enemies use elements that they are resistant to. Making full use of this feat will usually require you to use strikes from other schools, or your opponents will cut much of the damage out. Add the fact that it really isn't much resistance, and this becomes an iffy take.
    Shift- going to 50-50 helps mitigate the Style drawback, but if you aren't concerned about energy resistance it's better to use Elements As One to just shift to something they're vulnerable to, instead of using your Swift regularly to do half.
    Explosion- Being able to use this means that Style's ER isn't doing you much of anything. Not bad otherwise, but not quite worth going 3 deep into a mediocre chain.

    Eternal Guardian: More curses, but this is not nearly as powerful as Cursed Razor Style and its followers. I can see someone who wants to do Razor/Guardian dipping Master of many Styles for double-style to get both chains going, though, and Guardian does enough CMB shenanigans to possibly make it work.
    Style- Not too much of a benefit, here, but useful against the chaff. Pity about the duration, though
    Oath- Better. It isn't difficult to get many enemies Cursed and also have good reach, so this can be anythign from a mass-tripping earthquake to an explosion of enemies Bull rush.
    Endurance- This one is good. Powerful benefit, but won't come up as often due to how many fights work. Most bosses have mooks, though, so it has a lot of potential.

    Golden Lion: Notable that they are effectively teamwork feats now, which greatly improves them in recent days. Between the large number of DSP classes able to take advantage of that (Seer Viziers, Dominance Daevics, etc) and a couple from paizo as well, they will get more use. Just make sure you have a good source of AoOs (either Reflexes or being a Warder).
    Style- Free attacks is free attacks. They don't need to be flanking WITH you, though they normally will be.
    Charge- depends on an enemy missing an ally, but that isn't all that rare of an occurance and the trigger is not only free attacks, but also good battlefield mobility.
    Command- The most attacks I've ever made in a round is about 20 on a natural-attack blender, but more typically will be 4-5. 25 temp HP isn't bad, I just wish it lasted more than one round. Even if it was just two, it would make a huge difference. Not really needed though.

    Ok, my time is up for now. I will resume with Iron Tortoise once I get the ability to.
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    Default Re: [Dreamscarred Press] Path of War: Expanded! (Discussion Thread VI)

    Thanks for the feedback Psybomb, we definitely need people looking at stuff that hasn't been looked at much yet like the style feats. Can't wait to see you finish those up!

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    Default Re: [Dreamscarred Press] Path of War: Expanded! (Discussion Thread VI)

    I honestly liked the Flankers Gambit as it was. Being able to Ranged Sneak Attack and freeing up feats to do it, with the caveat that if I failed I took a -2 penalty to d20 rolls. I consider that to be a good trade off. You could not initiate boosts with it, because Swift action, if you did boost the next turn you lost flanking on the 3rd turn.

    All in all a decent trade for some builds and actually made the Gambit worth looking at in my opinion.

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    Default Re: [Dreamscarred Press] Path of War: Expanded! (Discussion Thread VI)

    Quote Originally Posted by Elricaltovilla View Post
    Thanks for the feedback Psybomb, we definitely need people looking at stuff that hasn't been looked at much yet like the style feats. Can't wait to see you finish those up!
    I actually had a few questions awhile back in the old thread about Golden Lion style.
    I will see if I can repost it here when I get off work later tonight.

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    Default Re: [Dreamscarred Press] Path of War: Expanded! (Discussion Thread VI)

    Quote Originally Posted by Deadkitten View Post
    I actually had a few questions awhile back in the old thread about Golden Lion style.
    I will see if I can repost it here when I get off work later tonight.
    Oh yes please do!

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    Default Re: [Dreamscarred Press] Path of War: Expanded! (Discussion Thread VI)

    Scarlet Throne Style. Does this grant 1.5x to STR or no?

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    Default Re: [Dreamscarred Press] Path of War: Expanded! (Discussion Thread VI)

    Quote Originally Posted by AGrinningCat View Post
    Scarlet Throne Style. Does this grant 1.5x to STR or no?
    This has been answered many, many times. No it does not. Feats and abilities folks. Feats and abilities.

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    Default Re: [Dreamscarred Press] Path of War: Expanded! (Discussion Thread VI)

    Quote Originally Posted by Elricaltovilla View Post
    This has been answered many, many times. No it does not. Feats and abilities folks. Feats and abilities.
    I've seemed to miss it every time it's been asked then. Trying to decide if it's even worth taking.
    Last edited by AGrinningCat; 2015-06-25 at 02:38 PM.

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    Default Re: [Dreamscarred Press] Path of War: Expanded! (Discussion Thread VI)

    Quote Originally Posted by AGrinningCat View Post
    I've seemed to miss it every time it's been asked then. Trying to decide if it's even worth taking.
    It is. That 150% Power Attack damage is super useful, and ST Dignity/Riposte are pretty great.

    Also, a one-level Landsknecht dip gets you 1.5*Str to damage with a one-handed weapon.
    Last edited by Extra Anchovies; 2015-06-25 at 02:39 PM.
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    Default Re: [Dreamscarred Press] Path of War: Expanded! (Discussion Thread VI)

    I'm typically not a fan of feats that need other feats to function. As it stands, the feat literally does nothing when isolated. Hell, even going through the base 3 classes, there's nothing that requires 2hands to function. I know that Savage Stance from Black Seraph requires two hands, (Furious) Primal Wrath gives +damage damage out of the strike, Iron Hide stance wants a two-hander as well.

    It's sort of goofy that this feat works better with Primal Fury than Scarlet Throne.

    Hell, the feat by itself actually penalizes you if you're in it's style and trying to do something silly like using your offhand. Since scarlet throne can also utilize Two-handers, it functionally does nothing for people who would use Scarlet Throne with a two-hander, which is a shame considering Dignity and Riposte are excellent.
    Last edited by AGrinningCat; 2015-06-25 at 02:53 PM.

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    Default Re: [Dreamscarred Press] Path of War: Expanded! (Discussion Thread VI)

    Quote Originally Posted by Extra Anchovies View Post
    It is. That 150% Power Attack damage is super useful, and ST Dignity/Riposte are pretty great.

    Also, a one-level Landsknecht dip gets you 1.5*Str to damage with a one-handed weapon.
    Yep, Landsknecht 1 with Scarlet Throne Style runs around pretending his 1H is a 2H for all intents and purposes, except he can still use it while grappled and can wiggle his fingers or carry junk with his other hand without any problems. It's a bit of a feat investment (Quick Draw, Seize the Opportunity, Combat Reflexes, Scarlet Throne Style on top of whatever else you wanted to get) but it's damn solid.
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    Default Re: [Dreamscarred Press] Path of War: Expanded! (Discussion Thread VI)

    The deficiencies of elemental flux style have come up a few times over the threads. I know I commented on it way back when it first was revealed. Not sure what the solution is, but I wouldn't bother about taking them presently.

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    Default Re: [Dreamscarred Press] Path of War: Expanded! (Discussion Thread VI)

    Quote Originally Posted by stack View Post
    The deficiencies of elemental flux style have come up a few times over the threads. I know I commented on it way back when it first was revealed. Not sure what the solution is, but I wouldn't bother about taking them presently.
    I'm probably going to have to go back and rewrite them. They haven't been updated since the second of... five? rewrites of the discipline.

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    Default Re: [Dreamscarred Press] Path of War: Expanded! (Discussion Thread VI)

    Quote Originally Posted by Elricaltovilla View Post
    Every time someone mentions Unchained Rogue as an appropriate balance point I die a little inside. Unchained Rogue is better than regular rogue, but that doesn't mean it's actually something we want to match.

    Now, as far as Graceful Killer is concerned there's an issue people haven't actually addressed: by pairing both those feats together, you've made it an unattractive choice to take Weapon Finesse at 1st level. Which means that you'll end up with three typical scenarios for 1st level play:
    I actually did address it in my large feedback post that got buried. I am going to repost my feedback, since it probably was not seen. I think some of the stuff I gave feedback on has been updated though, so its not all going to be up to date.

    Though as far as Graceful Killer goes, I am happy that it now lets you select it at level 1. I don't see why it was reduced from 5 weapons to 1 weapon though. I think letting it be 3 weapons would be fine. That way they could get a good throwing weapon in.

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    In general, these favored class bonuses are great. Besides the ones I comment on, they are all balanced and have no problems. I in fact adore some of the choices, such as making Aasimar and Dromite Warders excellent defenders with their FCB.

    Duergar Stalker get 1/4th their level to their ki pool, but Humans get ½ their level.

    Gnome Stalkers get 1/3rd of a Stalker Art, but Half-elves get 1/5th.

    Half-Giants and Maenads have a ridiculously strong FCB with Zealots. They basically add another +5 to Zeal. I do not think this is okay. Especially when both were already amazing races to run with Zealot.


    I love the clarification on discipline exchanges. Thank you for clearing that up!

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    New Tactics is also fantastic. There is a ridiculous amount of gold located here. Giving out the free disciplines, and granting other alternatives to their archetypes was a great move. And thank you for providing errata to the Pathwalker. Minimal problems in this section. Just a few things:
    I am quite happy with Graceful Killer for the Stalker. Sadly, the Stalker cannot select Graceful Killer at 1st level, since it lacks 1 BAB and the art specifically says that they need to meet all prerequisites in order to take this. I doubt that this was intended? Also, any chance of there being a 2WF version of this, but that requires Graceful Killer and Stalker level 3 as a prerequisite?

    Chessman’s Gambit might sound cooler as Chessmaster’s Gambit. Not really a problem though.

    Typo in War Soul’s Scarlet Throne Nobility “While in a Scarlet Throne stance and using a mind blade with one hand and nothing in the other, the war soul gains a +1 dodge bonus to his AC and a +1 insight bonus to Sense Motive checks to resist feint attempts or lied to.

    The Variable Wind feat, together with Elemental Flux, leads to a situation where each discipline has an active energy type unique to itself. Though this problem technically already existed, as you multiclassing with psionics was always possible. Elemental Flux with Acid, and Solar Wind with Sonic. When using Sonic, do elemental flux maneuvers turn off? Likewise with Solar Wind maneuvers that would deal energy damage.
    Last edited by Kaidinah; 2015-06-25 at 03:35 PM.

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    Default Re: [Dreamscarred Press] Path of War: Expanded! (Discussion Thread VI)

    And the rework of the mystic on top of that :P

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    Default Re: [Dreamscarred Press] Path of War: Expanded! (Discussion Thread VI)

    Elrical, if you want to wait on rewriting, I'm currently putting together a document for feedback on the style feats.

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    Default Re: [Dreamscarred Press] Path of War: Expanded! (Discussion Thread VI)

    Both of these changes are moving in weird directions

    Fear Monger (Ex): The stalker gains Dazzling Display as a bonus feat; the stalker gains access to the Black Seraph discipline and adds Intimidate to his class skills..
    This Art isn't all that useful. Previously it was a cool art for Brutal Stalker since they love intimidate, but now it's a sub par option for base and Brutal. Brutal Stalker already has Black Seraph as a discipline. If a Base Stalker wanted Black Seraph he wouldn't waste a valuable art on it, what with the traditions and traits being around.

    Graceful Killer (Ex): The stalker gains the benefits of Weapon Finesse and Deadly agility feats with any one weapon they are proficient with, even if this weapon would not normally be subject to either of these feats. This art may be taken multiple times.
    I like that the level restriction is removed, but dislike that it's limited to one weapon. Can we either get it to 2 weapons or at least a weapon group? One of the cool things about the Stalker was that he gets different bonus dice on deadly strikes and you had cool viable builds using different weapons. Wanted to twf with a kukri to farm crits and a light pick/hand axe to reap big deadly strike dice? Sure, got for it.

    Also now this is just going to lead to builds like "Imma 2HF with this here finessed/deadly agility'd Nodachi and power attack my problems away!"

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    Default Re: [Dreamscarred Press] Path of War: Expanded! (Discussion Thread VI)

    *sigh* I'm really outvoted in regards to Graceful Killer. I guess I can just ban it in my games and grumble quietly when a fellow player picks it.

    Quote Originally Posted by tekevil View Post
    Also now this is just going to lead to builds like "Imma 2HF with this here finessed/deadly agility'd Nodachi and power attack my problems away!"
    That's not an issue. PA still requires 13 Strength, and Deadly Agility doesn't give 1.5*Dex with two-handed weapons, so you'd get less damage than without Graceful Killer.
    Last edited by Extra Anchovies; 2015-06-25 at 03:51 PM.
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    Default Re: [Dreamscarred Press] Path of War: Expanded! (Discussion Thread VI)

    Quote Originally Posted by Extra Anchovies View Post
    *sigh* I'm really outvoted in regards to Graceful Killer. I guess I can just ban it in my games and grumble quietly when a fellow player picks it.



    That's not an issue. PA still requires 13 Strength, and Deadly Agility doesn't give 1.5*Dex with two-handed weapons, so you'd get less damage than without Graceful Killer.
    Power attack for 3-1. Also 13 str is not a large investment.

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    Default Re: [Dreamscarred Press] Path of War: Expanded! (Discussion Thread VI)

    What's wrong with Graceful killer, Extra? I haven't been paying attention to the last thread due to school issues (But I'm on break now, yay!)

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    Default Re: [Dreamscarred Press] Path of War: Expanded! (Discussion Thread VI)

    Quote Originally Posted by AGrinningCat View Post
    What's wrong with Graceful killer, Extra? I haven't been paying attention to the last thread due to school issues (But I'm on break now, yay!)
    I just didn't like that it gave two feats for one art when an art has already had its value set at one feat (Combat Art and Extra Stalker Art). Someone else noted that you can't choose any two feats, and that the Steelfist Commando trades one generic bonus feat for two specific bonus feats, but the fact remains that A) Stalkers don't give anything up in exchange for having this art available (Steelfist Commando gives up its generic bonus feat, but Stalkers don't have to if they don't want to) and B) almost any build that wants weapon finesse or deadly agility will also want both. So to me it's two feats for the price of one. This would be good if the Stalker was starved for feats, but the Stalker's problems aren't in that it doesn't have enough feats but in that its other core class features don't hold up well next to those of the other DSP initiators.

    Quote Originally Posted by tekevil View Post
    Power attack for 3-1. Also 13 str is not a large investment.
    Eh. My point was that you'd be spending one of your arts to get potentially higher AC but slightly lower damage than if you'd gone with a standard Strength build (which gets 3-for-1 on power attack and 1.5*strength).

    I actually kind of like that. I suppose I can accept Graceful Killer in its new, one-weapon-type form. Two-handed Dex-based combat is a nice thing.
    Last edited by Extra Anchovies; 2015-06-25 at 04:05 PM.
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