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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    Default Re: Ozodrin (5E Conversion, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Magikeeper View Post
    Question: Does this ability make sense / is it needlessly complex?:

    Spoiler: ability
    Show
    2fp – Burrowing Spikes
    You can form spikes that embed themselves in any creatures or objects they damage, expanding/unfolding/etc to push themselves deeper into your foes. Creatures and objects with one or more spikes embedded in them take 3 points of slashing damage at the start of each of your turns. Creatures so afflicted also take 5 points of slashing damage whenever they use their movement.

    An afflicted opponent can use an action to remove all spikes embedded in themselves, dealing 1d10 slashing damage to themselves in the process.

    If you damage a creature or object with a spike that is still directly attached to your body (such as via the Goring Spike or Deadly Quills alteration), you may choose to have the spike instantly detach itself from you when it embeds itself into them. If not, you are effectively grappled by the target unless you are two or more size categories larger than them, in which case they are instead effectively grappled by you. In either case, unlike a normal grapple, you can end/automatically break free of all opponents grappling/grappled by you this way as bonus action that removes the spike(s) and deals 1d10 slashing damage to each opponent. Furthermore, your opponent cannot willingly release you/break free of the grapple without removing the embedded spike (as noted above), which automatically ends the grapple. Any other effect that ends the grapple removes the embedded spike and deals 1d10 slashing damage to your opponent.



    -----

    I think it's the second third fourth wordiest advanced alteration, and I've pondered just removing all the grapple stuff (just have it always detatch). At some point I want to make a proper PDF and spread the class around, so stuff like "this ability is too complicated for its own good" is a concern.
    It's definitely complex. It basically does two things - a DOT plus move-punishing, no matter what, and a grapple effect only if they're attached.

    I would say... make them always detach. Make another feature for the grapple effect - it is a neat one, it's just too much to put in one feature. Maybe "Barbed Spikes"? Or this one could be Barbed and the other could be, I dunno, Strong Roots or something. Not sure whether that would require this or be separate from it.

    I think the damage might be a bit high? Entirely separate from whether the numbers are appropriate for when you get it (you didn't specify a tier), just the different kinds of damage relative to each other. Losing an action is a high cost for tearing out already, without the damage; if you remove that damage and the per-turn damage, it becomes a much more interesting question of "lose an action, or take damage every move". Or maybe make it a small tick on every move and every action, and then make the tear-out damage scale with how long you left them in (up to a cap)? Not sure. Would need playtesting.
    Last edited by Qwertystop; 2017-09-05 at 07:51 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by jamieth View Post
    ...though Talla does her best to sound objective and impartial, it doesn't cover stuff like "ask a 9-year-old to tank for the party."
    My Homebrew

  2. - Top - End - #62
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    Default Re: Ozodrin (5E Conversion, PEACH)

    It'd still be tier III spike. Right now the holes it fills are-
    A) Tier III spike needs a "more damage" option. It's typical for classes to have a damage increase ~lv11 and none of the other spike alterations at tier III really fit the bill.
    B) It gives more combat applications for tether.

    --

    Removal tweaks: Given that they're probably just going to get more spikes stuck in them next round, and the relatively small amount of damage, it's generally only worth removing the spikes when trying to run away anyway.

    Having it be based on the number of rounds they've been afflicted could get bookeeping intensive, which is an issue for an ability that would be going off every round and possibly effecting large numbers of creatures (w/Shredding Volley & Piercing Rain). I'm trying to keep the constant burrowing effect simple to run.

    --

    On damage on actions: A long time ago I did play around with a version of burrowing spike that dealt damage whenever the foe took an action instead of DOT. Then I realized that most foes are going to take an action every turn anyway. It would make the effect stronger against foes with legendary actions, but I'm not sure that's a good thing.

    Hrm, "Rooting Spike" better fits how I imagine the effect looking.

    Maybe...

    Spoiler: Rooting Spikes and Latching Spikes
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    2fp – Rooting Spikes
    You can form spikes that embed themselves in any creatures or objects they damage, taking root/expanding/unfolding/etc to push themselves deeper into your foes. Creatures and objects with one or more spikes embedded in them take 3 points of slashing damage at the start of each of your turns. Creatures so afflicted also take 5 points of slashing damage whenever they use their movement.

    An afflicted opponent can use an action to remove all spikes embedded in themselves, dealing 1d8 slashing damage to themselves in the process.

    If the spike was directly attached to your body (Goring Spike, Deadly Quills) it detaches from you when embedding itself into a target. This ability can be used with the tether alteration, it stays connected to the 'rope'.

    1fp - Latching Spikes (Requires Rooting Spikes)
    You are capable of exerting finer control over your rooting spikes. If you damage a creature or object with a rooting spike that is still directly attached to your body (such as via the Goring Spike or Deadly Quills alteration), you may choose to have the spike remain attached to your body. If you do, you are effectively grappled by the target unless you are two or more size categories larger than them, in which case they are instead effectively grappled by you.

    Unlike a normal grapple, you can end/automatically break free of all opponents grappling/grappled by you in this way as bonus action that removes the spike(s) and deals 1d8 slashing damage to each opponent. Any other effect that ends the grapple, such as your opponent releasing you, removes the embedded spike and deals 1d8 slashing damage to your opponent.

    The rooting spike otherwise functions as normal (the opponent takes damage at the start of each of your turns, etc).


    Damage of removal was determined for Latching Spike rather than Rooting Spike - I'd like it to stay the same and it's much more important for the former.
    Last edited by Magikeeper; 2017-09-05 at 11:39 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #63
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    Default Re: Ozodrin (5E Conversion, PEACH)

    First, awesome work.
    Second, I was working on a class like this (had no idea the ozodrin was a thing) based on the totemist, except its more like base natural weapon features and separate movement features, and the ability to combo them for added effects, might still write up something.
    Third, really kept looking for a rolling ball of spikes-like ability.
    Fourth, I am probably englishing wrong, its not my native tongue and my phone is trying to spellcheck everything to spanish.

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    Default Re: Ozodrin (5E Conversion, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Pampukin View Post
    Third, really kept looking for a rolling ball of spikes-like ability.
    You could use the Razor Fin alteration, cover yourself in spikes, and fluff your destructive movement as being a rolling spike death ball. Other fin-trait abilities could then be used to shove opponents and such while 'rolling'.

    Each of the offensive traits went in a different direction combat-style wise, with Fin being the movement fighting trait.

    --------

    Say, something said to me earlier reminded me of my pondering on Strange Movement: It's always been an Ozodrin staple but.. it no longer has an obvious fluff relationship with the class. Only Primary(Orifice) Ozodrin are doing strange stomach stuff as early as level 7. I'm thinking of tweaking the ability. Not sure how though...
    Last edited by Magikeeper; 2017-09-07 at 03:38 PM.

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    Default Re: Ozodrin (5E Conversion, PEACH)

    I would agree that it feels less relevant now that Ozodrin has solidified as "freeform shapeshifter" with the specifically extradimensional-eldritch fluff falling by the wayside. Also, it's not explicitly Stomach-related anymore.

    One idea: Drop it. Instead, give every type of feature a teleportation ability as a Tier 2, with different limitations. I like the idea of making each one's limitations based conceptually on the feature.

    Eyes are for looking. You can teleport to anywhere you can see, and from which you can see your original location. Peepholes no (can't see back), reflections yes.
    Tentacles are for touching. Touch something, teleport to anywhere else from which you can touch that thing. Line of sight not required. Put a limit on object size, so "the ground" doesn't count unless it's a distinct boulder or something.
    Flesh is for feeling. Not sure what to do here. Teleport things-that-injure-you, instead of yourself? Alternately, flesh is for being, teleport to parts of yourself. Good for going back if you leave a trail of blood or something, bad for going farther forwards unless you can throw bits of yourself really far.
    Orifices are for eating. Eating is fundamentally destructive. If you eat the distance from here to there, it's gone (temporarily), so someone else can follow you. You can't go through nonempty space.
    Spikes are for combat. Teleportation must be followed by an attack, on a target in-line for your direction of travel. You don't get the attack for free - you still have to take the action. So this one is less useful for noncombat movement (someone must be there to take the hit).
    Puppets are for secrets. You can't be observed when you leave, and you can't be observed arriving. Observed locations count as inside solid objects - be shunted out, and take damage for the distance. Also, you swap with a puppet.
    Fins are for swimming, and more generally, for movement. Teleporting isn't moving, not really; you just stop being one place and start being another place; on the other hand, the fin is all about mobility. So... Many microjumps. Teleport distance limited to 10', but you can make as many teleports in one action as you like, as long as all intermediate locations are valid (not occupied by another object, not in midair unless you can fly, et cetera). Also, each 10' jump only counts as 5' for the limit, so you can go faster/farther than the other kinds as long as you have safe stepping-stones.

    All of these features would share one 5'-per-class-level-per-day limit, which would be stated in the Strange Movement feature.

    I'm not sure about some of these - the limits are of vastly different scope. On the other hand, all the features are already different in what they can do, that's the point, so maybe it's okay if some are better at teleporting than others.
    Quote Originally Posted by jamieth View Post
    ...though Talla does her best to sound objective and impartial, it doesn't cover stuff like "ask a 9-year-old to tank for the party."
    My Homebrew

  6. - Top - End - #66
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    Default Re: Ozodrin (5E Conversion, PEACH)

    Hrm, folding it into some tier abilities might work.. although maybe I should just drop it entirely. Most traits already have some sort of existence fading in/out thing at tier IV. Your orifice idea is particularly cool, but it might be too difficult to describe in a way that wouldn't imply all sorts of side effects.

    Still, I'd need to replace the ability either way:

    Trait Overflow - Starting at 9th level you may, as an action, choose a single advance alteration you have currently made (such as "Poisonous Spikes"). You regain all uses of the ability(s) granted by that alteration as though you had completed a short rest. The chosen alteration must be from your primary or secondary traits.

    Once you use this ability, you must finish a long rest before you can use it again.

    -----

    I made it primary OR secondary because Tentacle never gets an alteration with per-rest uses, and Fin doesn't get any until Tier IV. Anyway, it also helps stabilize the class in games that have unusually few short rests per long rest.

    Edit: I've realized the it's possible to use a trait archtype that cannot use this ability at level 9, and has very little use of it at 11. Removing all restrictions at least makes it useful to such archtypes at 11. Being able to use a tertiery low-tier ability a few more times per day is a fine use anyway.

    Since you get Tier II at level 6, getting the extra uses at level 7 seems to soon. So this would make Abnormal Perspective the level 7 ability.

    Frankly, I'm not that pleased with Abnormal Perspective either. None of the rest of the class is focused on being buddies with aberrations, and aberrations aren't known for having an easier time getting along with other horrors. It feels like a random filler ability because.. well, it IS a random filler ability. But it's tied to fluff there isn't any real reason for the rest of the class to follow.

    Maybe..

    Spoiler: Ideas for new 7th
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    Obedient Anatomy - Starting at 7th level, your internal organs and processes become mildly responsive to your will.
    You have advantage on saving throws made against poisons and diseases.

    Furthermore, you may use a bonus action to exercise conscious control over one or more of your automatic bodily functions (control your heartbeat, stop sweating, etc).

    ^It's sufficiently minor and serves as a better lead-up to the body altering later abilities.

    --------

    Flesh Over Mind - Starting at 7th level you may, as an action, suppress any of your memories and/or create false memories. You may choose for this to effect both of your forms, or just one of them (Worldly Guise or True Nature).

    Your memories return to their original state whenever you complete a short or long rest. Starting at 17th level, you may instead have the changes last until a some sort of trigger occurs ("10 hours pass", "I see the color red", "I fear for my life", etc).

    ^This is neat, but really focused for a certain kind of character. Also, at level 17 you could already do this (only better) every long rest and that's probably the better place for it.
    Last edited by Magikeeper; 2017-09-09 at 07:17 PM.

  7. - Top - End - #67
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    Default Re: Ozodrin (5E Conversion, PEACH)

    So, I replaced Strange Movement and Aberrant Perspective with Colluding Anatomy and Trait Overflow. Keeping the main ability fluff a bit more focused.

    I created a Tier II, more flavorful Strange Movement alteration for Fin (Which led to a fin overhaul).

    I also created a Tier II alteration for Puppet that basically lets you trade places with a puppet, which led to a couple other Puppet changes.

    Tentacle needed to have a low-tier alteration that can be used with overflow, so I ended up moving Magic Ripping Tendrils down and changing it to fit Tier II power level (might reduce uses to 1/r). Added Magic Disarraying Tentacles to Tier IV.

    I'd go more into it but then everyone's eyes would glaze over so... um.. thoughts on changes would be appreciated!

  8. - Top - End - #68
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    Default Re: Ozodrin (5E Conversion, PEACH)

    The phrasing on the X-times-per-rest limits seems awkward. I'm not sure off the top of my head of a better phrasing, since you seem to be conspicuously avoiding phrasings like "You may use this {N times} per short rest".
    Quote Originally Posted by jamieth View Post
    ...though Talla does her best to sound objective and impartial, it doesn't cover stuff like "ask a 9-year-old to tank for the party."
    My Homebrew

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    Default Re: Ozodrin (5E Conversion, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Qwertystop View Post
    The phrasing on the X-times-per-rest limits seems awkward. I'm not sure off the top of my head of a better phrasing, since you seem to be conspicuously avoiding phrasings like "You may use this {N times} per short rest".
    That's one thing I miss about 4e's syntax - being aloud to use "per short rest" as shorthand for "you regain all uses of this ability after a short or long rest."

    Which ability has this wording?
    I can't find it right now, but once i take a look I should have an alternative that might sound better to you, Qwerty.
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    Default Re: Ozodrin (5E Conversion, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by JBPuffin View Post
    That's one thing I miss about 4e's syntax - being aloud to use "per short rest" as shorthand for "you regain all uses of this ability after a short or long rest."

    Which ability has this wording?
    I can't find it right now, but once i take a look I should have an alternative that might sound better to you, Qwerty.
    At minimum, the two new Tier II alterations. Probably other things as well.

    What, doesn't the system have a standard phrasing for this? I know 3.x was perfectly fine with saying "per day".
    Quote Originally Posted by jamieth View Post
    ...though Talla does her best to sound objective and impartial, it doesn't cover stuff like "ask a 9-year-old to tank for the party."
    My Homebrew

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    Default Re: Ozodrin (5E Conversion, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Qwertystop View Post
    At minimum, the two new Tier II alterations. Probably other things as well.

    What, doesn't the system have a standard phrasing for this? I know 3.x was perfectly fine with saying "per day".
    It does, but it's that long chunk I just quoted (sometimes short rest isn't there, sometimes it's "the use", and so on). Easy enough to copy and paste, but it's quite long.

    For Essence Shift and similar...Lemme see here...

    "You may use this ability a number of times equal to 2 plus the number of times you make this alteration, and regain all uses of this ability after a short or long rest." Slightly more compact, at least?
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    Default Re: Ozodrin (5E Conversion, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Qwertystop View Post
    What, doesn't the system have a standard phrasing for this? I know 3.x was perfectly fine with saying "per day".
    I based the phrasing on the 5E fighter's Action Surge class feature, which is:

    Quote Originally Posted by Action Surge
    Once you use this feature, you must finish a short or Long Rest before you can use it again. Starting at 17th level, you can use it twice before a rest, but only once on the same turn.
    Another variation is:

    Quote Originally Posted by Wild Shape
    You can use this feature twice. You regain expended uses when you finish a short or Long Rest.
    Other abilities seem to use a similar wording. I agree that "X per rest" would be less verbose, but I would prefer to match the wording used by the official classes whenever possible.


    I suppose I could remove the "Using this ability is straining - " part, however? Have it more directly match the action surge wording.

    ------------------------

    Edit: Later is now:
    @JBPuffin: An advanced alteration can't be made multiple times unless is says so, so the wording has to include "You may..." in it. With that addition, I don't think it'd end up being much more compact.
    Last edited by Magikeeper; 2017-09-11 at 04:52 PM.

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    Default Re: Ozodrin (5E Conversion, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Magikeeper View Post
    I suppose I could remove the "Using this ability is straining - " part, however? Have it more directly match the action surge wording.
    I definitely suggest removing that tagline before describing the usage limits, as they're actually rather loose for something supposedly difficult. A better model would actually be the paladin's Divine Sense - "You can use this feature a number of times equal to 1 + your Charisma modifier. When you finish a long rest, you regain all expended uses." Add the "short or" before long rest and change the number to "2 + the number of times you make this alteration," and...you end up with what I got. Huh. I didn't even remember that's how Divine Sense worked until I pulled it up in the PHB...

    Edit: "You may make this alteration multiple times. You may use this ability a number of times equal to 2 + the number of times you make this alteration, and regain all uses of this ability after a short or long rest."
    Last edited by JBPuffin; 2017-09-11 at 05:01 PM.
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    Default Re: Ozodrin (5E Conversion, PEACH)

    I finally changed the per-rest alteration wording to remove the "straining" bit.

    Also, Burrowing Spike has been replaced with a new version of Rooting Spike. I decided the latching effect was too niche and wordy to be worth it, and the damage-upon-moving only worked for specific fluff and required more memorization than just damage-at-start. The damage-at-start was increased from 3 to 5, and the damage upon removal was decreased to 1d6. It also deals piercing instead of slashing each round, but still does slashing when removed.

    It also only effects creatures now. The object stuff created a bunch of niche complications and most objects you'd actually want to destroy have hardness >5 so the ability wouldn't have much of an effect.

    ----

    Deadly Quills have been made more generally useful (effects melee non-reach attacks as well as body part ones) and can be retracted/extended as a reaction/bonus action so you don't have to look like a porcupine 24/7 to use it. I'd really like playtest data on this one (and Rooting Spike, for that matter)...

    -----

    Frenzied Contraction has been replaced with Quivering Tether, which is just somewhat more versatile Frenzied Contraction. It's not much wordier than it was before we removed the latching stuff.


    -----------------

    As always, comments and playtest data are very welcome!
    Last edited by Magikeeper; 2018-01-22 at 02:56 PM.

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    Default Re: Ozodrin (5E Conversion, PEACH)

    I made an account just so I could post to this, I find the idea of this class really cool I will send play-test data if my DM will let me play it.

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    Default Re: Ozodrin (5E Conversion, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Darthteddybear View Post
    I made an account just so I could post to this, I find the idea of this class really cool I will send play-test data if my DM will let me play it.
    Hope that worked out for you!

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    Default Re: Ozodrin (5E Conversion, PEACH)

    I've been following this thread on and off for years now, and just now made an account to share my joy with you that I'm finally playing an Ozodrin. Currently level 3.
    We rolled for stats (which is important to mention because it left us with an average equivalent of like, 40 point buy), so my data might be a bit skewed.

    We've had a minimum of combat so far, and I am never going to take my points out of Ravenous Maws: They're very helpful for my self-assigned role as the party's tank.

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    Default Re: Ozodrin (5E Conversion, PEACH)

    I've been interested in this thread for a long time. Just wondering if you have any plans to format the class and post it on dmsguil d in the future. Even if it ends up costing something to purchase I'm all for it.

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    Default Re: Ozodrin (5E Conversion, PEACH)

    @thargent - Sounds great! Thank you for sharing, I always wonder if folk are actually playing this class outside of my own tests. How has the class fared so far?

    @sallyisgreat - I've considered doing so. Uploading it there would likely get the Ozodrin more widely played, which would be very nice given the truckload of work that's gone into this class. Why that hasn't been done already:

    1) I'd still like to get a little more playtesting feedback before creating what would effectively be a finalized document - the class has handled fine thus far but, to give an example, I have no data on Primary(Puppet) Ozodrin at all and very little data regarding Ozodrin at high levels. Theoretically there shouldn't be any issues - research into what other classes can do, DPS capabilities, etc was certainly done - but I'd like to have that confirmed. Obviously it'd be infeasible to test every single archtype combination, but having all 7 Primary possibilities tested at low, mid, and high levels would be nice.

    2) Formatting that will take a ton of time. I'd also like to get some actual art for the document, and the person I'd likely ask to do it is completely swamped for the foreseeable future.

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    Default Re: Ozodrin (5E Conversion, PEACH)

    With playtesting resuming, I've been pondering about Ozodrin-As-PDF, which led me thinking about the current wording of "Manifest Form" - it's basically a carry over of the old terms and I think it could be clearer.

    So the change would be:

    Spoiler: Old Wording
    Show
    Manifest Form
    In addition to your original form, henceforth referred to as your “Worldly Guise”, you have a second form – your True Nature. This second form is altered via your other class abilities, and is otherwise the same as your worldly guise. Whichever form you are currently in is considered to be your “true form” for spells and effects. You may freely switch from one form to another as an action and/or as a bonus action.


    To:

    Spoiler: New Wording
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    Manifest Form
    You have two forms. The first, your “Worldly Form” looks like your old self without alteration. The second, your “Inner Nature”, can be modified by your Trait Archetype and Form Points class abilities. You can change which of these forms you’re in as an action and/or bonus action, and remain in that form indefinitely.

    To an Ozodrin like yourself, this ability is as mundane as a human combing their hair. Spells and effects treat whichever of these forms you’re currently in as your “Original Form”. Upon death, an Ozodrin remains in whichever of these forms it was in.


    I'm thinking of changing Worldly Guise / True Nature -> Worldly Form / Inner Nature so it's less confusing how whichever one you're in counts as your Original / True Form.


    I also considered just altering it so you only have one form, but that would make wording the abilities a lot harder.

    That said, does anyone have an opinion on the Manifest Form wordings?

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    Default Re: Ozodrin (5E Conversion, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Magikeeper View Post
    With playtesting resuming, I've been pondering about Ozodrin-As-PDF, which led me thinking about the current wording of "Manifest Form" - it's basically a carry over of the old terms and I think it could be clearer.

    So the change would be:

    Spoiler: Old Wording
    Show
    Manifest Form
    In addition to your original form, henceforth referred to as your “Worldly Guise”, you have a second form – your True Nature. This second form is altered via your other class abilities, and is otherwise the same as your worldly guise. Whichever form you are currently in is considered to be your “true form” for spells and effects. You may freely switch from one form to another as an action and/or as a bonus action.


    To:

    Spoiler: New Wording
    Show
    Manifest Form
    You have two forms. The first, your “Worldly Form” looks like your old self without alteration. The second, your “Inner Nature”, can be modified by your Trait Archetype and Form Points class abilities. You can change which of these forms you’re in as an action and/or bonus action, and remain in that form indefinitely.

    To an Ozodrin like yourself, this ability is as mundane as a human combing their hair. Spells and effects treat whichever of these forms you’re currently in as your “Original Form”. Upon death, an Ozodrin remains in whichever of these forms it was in.


    I'm thinking of changing Worldly Guise / True Nature -> Worldly Form / Inner Nature so it's less confusing how whichever one you're in counts as your Original / True Form.


    I also considered just altering it so you only have one form, but that would make wording the abilities a lot harder.

    That said, does anyone have an opinion on the Manifest Form wordings?
    The new wording is better.
    Quote Originally Posted by jamieth View Post
    ...though Talla does her best to sound objective and impartial, it doesn't cover stuff like "ask a 9-year-old to tank for the party."
    My Homebrew

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    Default Re: Ozodrin (5E Conversion, PEACH)

    Well alright then, change made!

    I also greatly overhauled Aberrant Metamorphosis while I was at it.

    Spoiler: Old
    Show
    Aberrant Metamorphosis
    Starting at 10th level you are forevermore an aberration instead of your previous type (usually humanoid). This changes how some spells and effects interact with you. Furthermore, you gain the ability to modify your Worldly Guise after a long rest. This works like altering your True Nature except as follows:

    > You may add/remove non-trait alteration body parts, up to a maximum of however many you would have had without this ability (For example, you could remove your normal legs one day and regain them a different day or move them from one part of your body to another). You can also change the general shape of your torso, neck, and head.
    > You cannot remove any alterations made this way when entering your True Nature (For example, if you make an advanced alteration to your worldly guise that alteration is also present when you enter your true nature, just as though it were one of your non-alteration granted abilities/body parts). You can remove the alterations as normal the next time you change your worldly guise.
    > You can freely change the form but not capabilities of your internal organs. For example, you can choose to be filled with a semi-solid goo that performs all of the actions your internal organs used to perform but you would still need to eat/drink/etc as normal. This anatomy change may protect you from certain kinds of attacks at the DM's option.


    Spoiler: new
    Show
    Aberrant Metamorphosis
    Starting at 10th level you are forevermore an aberration instead of your previous type (usually humanoid). This changes how some spells and effects interact with you.

    Furthermore, you may use your Base Alterations and currently chosen Advance Alterations to modify your Worldly Form instead of / in addition to your Inner Nature. This does NOT let you choose any more Advance Alterations than your form points allow. Any Advance Alteration costs/effects based on how many times you've currently made them to your Inner Nature are instead based on how many times you've made them to either of your forms.

    Finally, you gain the ability modify your non-trait body parts (such as your normal legs). This ability works as follows:

    > Unlike other alterations, you can only modify non-trait body parts after completing a long rest.
    > Changes made this way effect both your Inner Nature AND your Worldly Form.
    > You can change the general shape and features of your Torso, Neck, and Head. For example, you could become a ball of flesh with limbs or some kind of dog-person.
    > You may add/remove/relocate non-trait alteration body parts, up to a maximum of however many you would have had without this ability. For example, you could remove your normal eyes one day and regain them a different day or move them from one part of your body to another.
    > You can freely change the form but not capabilities of your internal organs. For example, you can choose to be filled with a semi-solid goo that performs all of the actions your internal organs used to perform but you would still need to eat/drink/etc as normal. This anatomy change may protect you from certain kinds of attacks at the DM's option.


    I think the new version is much clearer. It also changes the ability mechanically - Altering non-trait body parts can still only be done after a long rest but your Worldly Form can be modified by your Base/Advance Alterations whenever you could modify your Inner Nature. This avoids the issue of potentially having Advance Alterations you can't remove after a short rest. The only reasons to limit using the alterations on your worldly form are fluff and at level 10 you become an aberration anyway.

    Thoughts?
    Last edited by Magikeeper; 2018-12-11 at 02:16 PM.

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    Default Re: Ozodrin (5E Conversion, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Magikeeper View Post
    Well alright then, change made!

    I also greatly overhauled Aberrant Metamorphosis while I was at it.

    Spoiler: Old
    Show
    Aberrant Metamorphosis
    Starting at 10th level you are forevermore an aberration instead of your previous type (usually humanoid). This changes how some spells and effects interact with you. Furthermore, you gain the ability to modify your Worldly Guise after a long rest. This works like altering your True Nature except as follows:

    > You may add/remove non-trait alteration body parts, up to a maximum of however many you would have had without this ability (For example, you could remove your normal legs one day and regain them a different day or move them from one part of your body to another). You can also change the general shape of your torso, neck, and head.
    > You cannot remove any alterations made this way when entering your True Nature (For example, if you make an advanced alteration to your worldly guise that alteration is also present when you enter your true nature, just as though it were one of your non-alteration granted abilities/body parts). You can remove the alterations as normal the next time you change your worldly guise.
    > You can freely change the form but not capabilities of your internal organs. For example, you can choose to be filled with a semi-solid goo that performs all of the actions your internal organs used to perform but you would still need to eat/drink/etc as normal. This anatomy change may protect you from certain kinds of attacks at the DM's option.


    Spoiler: new
    Show
    Aberrant Metamorphosis
    Starting at 10th level you are forevermore an aberration instead of your previous type (usually humanoid). This changes how some spells and effects interact with you.

    Furthermore, you may use your Base Alterations and currently chosen Advance Alterations to modify your Worldly Form instead of / in addition to your Inner Nature. This does NOT let you choose any more Advance Alterations than your form points allow. Any Advance Alteration costs/effects based on how many times you've currently made them to your Inner Nature are instead based on how many times you've made them to either of your forms.

    Finally, you gain the ability modify your non-trait body parts (such as your normal legs). This ability works as follows:

    > Unlike other alterations, you can only modify non-trait body parts after completing a long rest.
    > Changes made this way effect both your Inner Nature AND your Worldly Form.
    > You can change the general shape and features of your Torso, Neck, and Head. For example, you could become a ball of flesh with limbs or some kind of dog-person.
    > You may add/remove/relocate non-trait alteration body parts, up to a maximum of however many you would have had without this ability. For example, you could remove your normal eyes one day and regain them a different day or move them from one part of your body to another.
    > You can freely change the form but not capabilities of your internal organs. For example, you can choose to be filled with a semi-solid goo that performs all of the actions your internal organs used to perform but you would still need to eat/drink/etc as normal. This anatomy change may protect you from certain kinds of attacks at the DM's option.


    I think the new version is much clearer. It also changes the ability mechanically - Altering non-trait body parts can still only be done after a long rest but your Worldly Form can be modified by your Base/Advance Alterations whenever you could modify your Inner Nature. This avoids the issue of potentially having Advance Alterations you can't remove after a short rest. The only reasons to limit using the alterations on your worldly form are fluff and at level 10 you become an aberration anyway.

    Thoughts?
    1: "Advance" should really be "Advanced".
    2: "how many times you've made them to either of your forms" should be either "how many times you've made them to both of your forms" if it sums, or "how many times you've made them to one of your forms (whichever has more)" if it doesn't sum. Or perhaps "how many times you've made them to your current form". Possibly there's a better phrasing, but the current one is unclear.
    3: It's more generally unclear – Say I'm level 10. Without this ability I have 11 form points, so I could take five 2fp alterations and a single 1fp alteration. With this ability, can I make five 2fp alterations and a 1fp alteration to my Inner Nature and a different set of five-and-one to my Worldly Form, or is the total limited (so I could, for example, put three-and-one on my Inner Nature and the rest on my Worldly Form)?
    4: "Changes made this way effect"... pretty sure that should be "affect".
    5: "Torso, Neck, and Head" shouldn't be capitalized.
    6: The first point and the last three points on the final ability can basically be combined and simplified a lot without significant mechanical change; it ends up as roughly "You can change your non-Trait body shape however you want when you complete a long rest. This does not give you new natural weapons, change your movement speed, or change or remove basic requirements of your body (such as the need to eat, drink, and breathe). It may provide protection from certain specific-anatomy-based attacks, at the DM's option." (and then tack on examples like "you can be a goo-filled skin-bag, a ball of arms, or a dog-monster").

    Also, if you're planning the PDF release as any sort of finalization (which it will be; the PDF will almost certainly circulate if people take interest), you should probably try to get someone to do a serious editing pass. And more structured playtesting, perhaps.
    Quote Originally Posted by jamieth View Post
    ...though Talla does her best to sound objective and impartial, it doesn't cover stuff like "ask a 9-year-old to tank for the party."
    My Homebrew

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    Default Re: Ozodrin (5E Conversion, PEACH)

    It'll likely be a good long while before any sort of PDF release, but yes it'll need to be carefully gone through and de-typo-fied.

    Anyhow, based on the questions the re-wording was much more confusing than I thought. I'd explain intent, but I'd rather see if I can reword it so the intent is clear. >.>

    On Affect and Effect: *Consults Google* You... you might actually have used "affect" correctly. Good lord, you really are an otherworldly horror. "The Letters of a Pale Sun", perhaps? Or maybe "The Tapping Sound's End". Something like that, don't eat me.

    Anyway, that'd be:

    -----------
    Furthermore, you may use your Base Alterations to modify your Worldly Form. In addition, whenever you modify your Inner Nature with an Advanced Alteration you may choose to have that advanced alteration affect both your Worldly Form and your Inner Nature.
    -----------

    The re-wording did tweak the mechanics a bit, in that it is no longer possible to have an advanced alteration just affecting one's Worldly Form.

    As for shortening the list somehow, I'll think about it. I feel that's an area where someone completely new to the class will be more confused than someone more familiar with the Ozodrin. Also, being able to specifically re-add what you remove becomes important if a PC has body parts they can't mimic with their Ozodrin class abilities (Like wings if not focusing on Fin, or anything with unique mechanics attached to it) or body parts that would cost form points to mimic instead of being free (like noses). I'd rather be a little longer and very clear than shorter and potentially confusing for this one.

    Spoiler: Whole new new wording
    Show
    Aberrant Metamorphosis
    Starting at 10th level you are forevermore an aberration instead of your previous type (usually humanoid). This changes how some spells and effects interact with you.

    Furthermore, you may use your Base Alterations to modify your Worldly Form. In addition, whenever you modify your Inner Nature with an Advanced Alteration you may choose to have that advanced alteration affect both your Worldly Form and your Inner Nature.

    Finally, you gain the ability modify your non-trait body parts (such as your normal legs). This ability works as follows:

    > Unlike other alterations, you can only modify non-trait body parts after completing a long rest.
    > Changes made this way affect both your Inner Nature AND your Worldly Form.
    > You can change the general shape and features of your torso, neck, and head. For example, you could become a ball of flesh with limbs or some kind of dog-person.
    > You may add/remove/relocate non-trait alteration body parts, up to a maximum of however many you would have had without this ability. For example, you could remove your normal eyes one day and regain them a different day or move them from one part of your body to another.
    > You can freely change the form but not capabilities of your internal organs. For example, you can choose to be filled with a semi-solid goo that performs all of the actions your internal organs used to perform but you would still need to eat/drink/etc as normal. This anatomy change may protect you from certain kinds of attacks at the DM's option.
    Last edited by Magikeeper; 2018-12-12 at 01:15 PM.

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    Default Re: Ozodrin (5E Conversion, PEACH)

    I really enjoy the mechanics of this class, but have been wondering about what kind of lore one would use for a character with this class. I enjoy the bit where it talks about being severed from the world, but it is very open ended. Anyone that has played this class and can share their background, I would be interested to hear it.

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    Default Re: Ozodrin (5E Conversion, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by sallyisgreat View Post
    I really enjoy the mechanics of this class, but have been wondering about what kind of lore one would use for a character with this class. I enjoy the bit where it talks about being severed from the world, but it is very open ended. Anyone that has played this class and can share their background, I would be interested to hear it.
    I've tried a few times but never in a game that went very far (and with a different version of the class, in 3.P). The first one thought he was normal – that is, that everyone could and did shift freely, teleport short distances, etc. (but it was "more polite" to e.g. make a point of going through B when going from A to C). His backstory didn't check out against actual history; every PC in that game was half-siblings initially meeting up for their mutual father's funeral; the father never actually met my character's mother (but they had a lot of near-misses and he slipped in from a maybe). He didn't know that last bit. Game was a PbP on here, died when DM left, came back when replacement DM turned up, died again when the replacement left.

    The next one had always been an Ozodrin and was strongly discouraged from using them early on by a nonparental caregiver, without any good explanation. Came up with his own explanation, which was that everyone was acting and nobody gave him the script, but he should try not to disrupt things too badly. Never talked about this, rarely broke role. That game made it about half a session before I left – I'm not good at in-person.
    Quote Originally Posted by jamieth View Post
    ...though Talla does her best to sound objective and impartial, it doesn't cover stuff like "ask a 9-year-old to tank for the party."
    My Homebrew

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    Default Re: Ozodrin (5E Conversion, PEACH)

    I had a potential character backstory. My character is an aasimar and this granted him his powers as an ozodrin. This is inspired by stories of the strange and alien nephilim, another take on half-angels. His father, the angel Thorzial, had him in order to act as a mortal example to inspire a newborn god, statted as a hundun in The Tome of Foes, in order to teach it to become a diety of good. The character would be reluctant, and have arguments with a tiny Angel on his shoulder that only he can see.
    Last edited by sallyisgreat; 2020-03-05 at 12:27 AM.

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    Default Re: Ozodrin (5E Conversion, PEACH)

    The one I played the longest did make a big deal out of being an Ozodrin / had a more elaborate origin (more on that below, see the spoiler box), but most other PCs, NPCS, PCs I've been in the same group as / DM'd for didn't make that their focus.

    The simple "somewhere in my family tree lies either a horrifying otherworldly horror and/or someone that had quite the adventure" has been the usual backstory. Not all sorcerers make why they're a sorcerer the main focus of their backstory - that's just what they are. Many Ozodrin PCs I've had/seen likewise didn't make a big deal of their origin. Granted, they virtually always creeped out the other party members just by existing (even if they were otherwise friendly individuals).

    It's like how I had this one wizard that had a long backstory explaining why he was an illusionist specifically while most other illusionist PCs I played just chose the school because they liked it.

    I also did the "was the victim of a mad science experiment" route once but that campaign was too short to really work with the concept~


    -------------

    One I played the longest:

    Spoiler: character blather
    Show
    The Ozodrin I played the longest (~4-5 years, first the original 3.5 version and then the 3.5 update) had encountered a unique opportunity in the far realms during a multiplanar war as a minor soldier, effectively getting broken down and having to pull themselves together in what felt like an eternity to become that level 1 Ozodrin. There was more to it than that, but that was the gist of that part of their backstory.

    For them, becoming what they later called an Ozodrin was more a sacrifice they had consciously made to become something unique enough to really make a difference.They were pretty much the embodiment of Chaotic Good, or at least the party/DM felt so (I generally left alignment blank on my chars and just played their personality). "Cthulu Jesus" was a term thrown around OOC a few times during the later campaigning years :P.

    Some of the campaign stuff was pretty interesting (well I think it all was but I digress), as I rarely see folk talk about arguments on the Chaos/Law axis of the 3.5 alignments while basically all of the heated inter-party stuff in that game was between the Ozodrin and the Paladin arguing about how to best help others. It was a terrible day when someone finally gave the Paladin a Freedom-Of-Movement granting item. >.>

    ----

    The Ozodrin I played the second longest (5E, Primary(Spike), Secondary (Eye, Flesh)), had a fleshed-out backstory but that was a campaign where even being a regular spellcaster was a very mysterious inherited trait tied to a secret of the setting so being an Ozodrin specifically wasn't a big(er) deal than anything else.

    ----

    Also for some reason my Ozodrin PCs pretty much always end up as the party diplomat despite being about as suave as a post and a little quirky. Yes, even in the game with the Far-Realms incursion where being an aberration was a serious problem*. Why, why is the horrifying tentacle monster always the party face!?
    *Nothing says "best choice for diplomat" like having to first convince the other side to not kill you on sight every time.
    Last edited by Magikeeper; 2018-12-13 at 10:50 PM.

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    Default Re: Ozodrin (5E Conversion, PEACH)

    I know I've asked before, but after the site went down for awhile it I thought the question relevant again. Since this is currently the only place to get this class I was wondering if you were still considering posting a version on dmsguild, or if not, maybe sharing a google document with a copy of the most recent version. The class seems in a mostly finished, or at least playable, state currently, so it would be nice to have a version of it available without using these forums. Thanks again for spending so much effort in making what is probably my favorite piece of homebrew out there.

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    Default Re: Ozodrin (5E Conversion, PEACH)

    Looking through this in preparation for an upcoming game (my first in years). Noticed something – the quick-build section at the top says:
    First, your highest ability score should either be Strength (Orifice, Flesh, Tentacle, Fin) or Dexterity (Tentacle, Fin, Spike) or Charisma (Eye, Puppet) depending on your primary trait and how you intend on attacking in combat.
    but while Tentacle has finesse, and Spike has a ranged-weapon option for Dexterity, Fin doesn't have finesse. Until you get wings, because wings are finesse weapons when regular fins aren't. This seems like a mistake?
    Quote Originally Posted by jamieth View Post
    ...though Talla does her best to sound objective and impartial, it doesn't cover stuff like "ask a 9-year-old to tank for the party."
    My Homebrew

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