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  1. - Top - End - #91
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    Default Re: Ozodrin (5E Conversion, PEACH)

    It is clearly a divine rule, a fact of the universe, that no matter how many months I check in on this thread someone is going to post as soon as I stop for a couple months. Every. Single. Time.

    Quote Originally Posted by sallyisgreat View Post
    I know I've asked before, but after the site went down for awhile it I thought the question relevant again. Since this is currently the only place to get this class I was wondering if you were still considering posting a version on dmsguild, or if not, maybe sharing a google document with a copy of the most recent version. The class seems in a mostly finished, or at least playable, state currently, so it would be nice to have a version of it available without using these forums. Thanks again for spending so much effort in making what is probably my favorite piece of homebrew out there.
    There are two/three things I still want to do, and they're mostly finished so I should sit down and DO THEM at some point. There is technically a 4th thing - and that would be to get art for a pdf version - but my artist associate is far too busy on other projects so that'd be at least another year.

    The other two/three things I want to do are:

    > Greatly revamp the puppet trait. Right now puppet is.. rough... and not all that great as a primary. It has some things going for it but aside from novelty I don't see people choosing it as a primary more than once if at that. It's not all that exciting at low levels. I have no playtest data for puppet primaries, because that's how unpopular it is. Also the Tier IV ability True Spawn, although very cool, causes setting issues (As it allows for a single ozodrin to eventually spawn an entire - albeit no that strong and infertile - race by itself. It'd take a long time, but high level Ozodrin don't die of old age soooo....). I feel that might stop the class from getting into games.
    ^This is actually almost done, I have a re-write of the entire trait ready to go, I suppose I could do the swap this weekend.

    > Do something with the tier IV fin alteration "Grand Charge" - It's also cool, but under very specific conditions that are unlikely to ever come up in a game it allow an ozodrin to slaughter thousands in one round. It's not really a big deal - you'd need the enemy to line up an entire army just right and if you pull that off you've practically earned the charge - but I fear the possibility of it also hindering game acceptance.

    > I have also been very seriously considering moving "unarmored defense" to level 2 as the current Ozodrin is a super-strong 1-level dip but a fairly reasonable 2-level dip. I'm not sure this is the change I want to make, but the sheer power of a 1-level dip concerns me even with the con/cha 13 restriction.

    IIRC I had some other tiny tweaks as well but most of those were clarifying how abilities worked and such.

    After that I should start posting it more places, I agree. The art just isn't going to be available anytime soon and I should just accept that.

    --------------------------

    @Qwertystop: You are correct, it is an error! Now I just need to remember if the error is the guide... or fins not having finesse... I'm pretty sure the error is fins not having finesse but I need to go back over that. I can do that this weekend as well.
    Last edited by Magikeeper; 2020-05-14 at 02:35 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #92
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    Default Re: Ozodrin (5E Conversion, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Magikeeper View Post
    It is clearly a divine rule, a fact of the universe, that no matter how many months I check in on this thread someone is going to post as soon as I stop for a couple months. Every. Single. Time.



    There are two/three things I still want to do, and they're mostly finished so I should sit down and DO THEM at some point. There is technically a 4th thing - and that would be to get art for a pdf version - but my artist associate is far too busy on other projects so that'd be at least another year.

    The other two/three things I want to do are:

    > Greatly revamp the puppet trait. Right now puppet is.. rough... and not all that great as a primary. It has some things going for it but aside from novelty I don't see people choosing it as a primary more than once if at that. It's not all that exciting at low levels. I have no playtest data for puppet primaries, because that's how unpopular it is. Also the Tier IV ability True Spawn, although very cool, causes setting issues (As it allows for a single ozodrin to eventually spawn an entire - albeit no that strong and infertile - race by itself. It'd take a long time, but high level Ozodrin don't die of old age soooo....). I feel that might stop the class from getting into games.
    ^This is actually almost done, I have a re-write of the entire trait ready to go, I suppose I could do the swap this weekend.

    > Do something with the tier IV fin alteration "Grand Charge" - It's also cool, but under very specific conditions that are unlikely to ever come up in a game it allow an ozodrin to slaughter thousands in one round. It's not really a big deal - you'd need the enemy to line up an entire army just right and if you pull that off you've practically earned the charge - but I fear the possibility of it also hindering game acceptance.

    > I have also been very seriously considering moving "unarmored defense" to level 2 as the current Ozodrin is a super-strong 1-level dip but a fairly reasonable 2-level dip. I'm not sure this is the change I want to make, but the sheer power of a 1-level dip concerns me even with the con/cha 13 restriction.

    IIRC I had some other tiny tweaks as well but most of those were clarifying how abilities worked and such.

    After that I should start posting it more places, I agree. The art just isn't going to be available anytime soon and I should just accept that.

    --------------------------

    @Qwertystop: You are correct, it is an error! Now I just need to remember if the error is the guide... or fins not having finesse... I'm pretty sure the error is fins not having finesse but I need to go back over that. I can do that this weekend as well.
    I think the main issue with Puppet is it's really weird both thematically and mechanically – it's the only thing that's not a readily envisionable ordinary body part, the best analogy I could find was "anglerfish, I guess" and that's not very close. And then, as far as what it actually does – they can move within 5' of you, and then you can have them attack within 5' of them. So... basically, a Puppet primary is the reach-weapon option? But it's never explicitly stated like that, and it's weirdly put together, in that your attack range with puppets without any range extension is not the same as it would be with reach weapons. And some of it seems to imply that puppets can't leave your 5' square without range extensions, but 5' away from you is plenty to be in an adjacent square. But then, since base features are free and Mass Assault can trigger all your puppets to attack at once... if it's one puppet in each square adjacent to you, you can probably get three puppets attacking one enemy for 3d8+(3*CHA) untyped damage at first level. If puppets share your space, because they're tiny and part of you... then it's unbounded, anything within 5' of you is within 5' of the swarm of hundreds of thousands of tiny dolls you're covered in (two puppets per six seconds since you first became an Ozodrin, minus any moments when you needed to use an action or bonus action to do something other than make puppets).

    You can't do much other than use them as weird reach weapons (plus a Charm effect) until tier 2, at which point it's still very expensive in FP to do much. You need Advanced and a range extension to have them be capable of doing much more than a ten-foot pole could, and Collapsing to even approach the additional safety provided by such a pole. Oh, but getting extra distance on them could let you do weird things with AOOs, by spreading them out so that your threatened area is large but has holes in it... but you need a lot of extra range to do that, and Advanced to broaden their actions enough to let you take reactions, and then if you don't also put Collapsing on all of them the enemy could just attack whichever is closest, and it would take a lot to have that going on more than one side of yourself. And you still only get one extra attack per turn out of it for all that investment.

    I get the general feeling that it mostly exists because previous versions of Ozodrin had it, but where Strange Movement fits well enough on fins, and all the stomach stuff streamlined pretty well into Orifice without losing too much (e.g. an Orifice/Flesh combo can still pretend to be architecture), Puppet is just weird and doesn't fit with the rest of the class so well. Lots more mechanical juggling, too, with the separate HP from Collapsing and the general positional management. It looks like it ought to be a summoner, but it really just isn't, until high levels.

    ---

    Grand Charge is differently weird. Unless I'm missing something there's not an easy way to actually turn that movement into an army-killer as you describe? Razor Fins isn't an attack so wouldn't auto-crit, for one thing. Multiassault gives you one attack at the end of it. Focus Surge gives you a second, which Multiassault turns into a third. Your bonus action is Razor Fins, so no using Martial Fins there for an extra attack at the end. That's three attacks, which auto-crit if they hit, plus Razor Fins, which seems like a pretty piddly amount of damage by the time you have T4 alterations. You'll provoke AOO from everyone you run past, too, unless you use one of those actions on Disengage instead of attacking. But it's not anything you couldn't do with earlier movement-boosters, just over a shorter distance. Sprinting Fins plus Specialized Physique plus Multiassault plus a Focus Surge gives you six times movement (base, plus double base from Sprinting Fins, plus Specialized lets you Multiassault and Focus Surge for another three dashes), still has the bonus for Razor Fins, doesn't have to be in a straight line, and you can get most of it (not the Focus Surge) constantly instead of once per day, and at a lower level.

    ---

    Meanwhile, things that are missing that could be potential replacements for some of this:
    • Fins let you dig fast early, but never graduate to landsharking. Four people with shovels still takes hours to dig a big enough hole for a grave, let alone a tunnel that needs to not collapse on itself.
    • Tentacles can't be made to give reach?
    • It would be quite nice, with how Fins allow attacks to be made while disengaging, to also get some kind of AOO booster – getting an AOO on people who move into your reach would be very good, if perhaps too powerful without something to moderate it.
    • These were from a separate branch of the class lineage than your own, but Hanuman's 3.PF Ozodrin had some neat creepy effects in skill tricks. Learning about things by tasting them with Palate and Food for Thought, Whispers to talk to people in line-of-sight silently, and Selective Invisibility to make people aware that you're present when they can't actually see you (note: does not make the hiding part easier). Very good for haunting-y stuff, but not just for that.


    ---

    Regarding the finesse-on-fins thing – it makes sense. You did put it on wings, and mobility goes with finesse thematically.

    ---

    Oh, regarding art – as I said, I'm playing this in an upcoming game, and at least seriously considering doing character art for it. Haven't had the time and energy lately, with everything going on, but I'm hopeful at getting around to it some time this month.
    Last edited by Qwertystop; 2020-05-14 at 06:07 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by jamieth View Post
    ...though Talla does her best to sound objective and impartial, it doesn't cover stuff like "ask a 9-year-old to tank for the party."
    My Homebrew

  3. - Top - End - #93
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    Default Re: Ozodrin (5E Conversion, PEACH)

    @Qwertystop: On Grand..err.. Supreme Charge - Razor Fins prevent AoOs from anything you damage. As for the damage, no you're not missing anything (except maybe using sizing flesh / long tentacle alteration to hit far more enemies and Sprinting Fins to up Razor Fin damage) - one of the very specific requirements to pull it off is that you must be fighting an army comprised of low-level enemies that can be killed by 3d6 damage. In 3.5 it'd be a non-issue, but in 5E there's been a clear design philosophy to prevent high-level PCs from killing arbitrary numbers of weak enemies with one mighty flex. Supreme Charge lets you razor fin hundreds of enemies in one round if the positioning is right.

    I don't imagine it ever coming up in an actual game unless the player actively tries to make it happen, but a level 16 PC basically having a 2/short rest 3d6 AOE line attack that's possibly over 1000 feet long might scare some 5E DMs.

    ----

    On the other non-puppet comments:
    > There is a tentacle alteration that increases range (Long Tentacles), Palette ability (Which was first a bonus feat for the OG Ozodrin IIRC) became the Refined Palette tier II Orifice alteration, Eye trait has Proclaiming Gaze.
    > 5E has definitely made a serious effort to stop PCs from being able to play burrow whack-a-mole and I think that's for the best as it is such a strong maneuver. That said, Digging Fins was kind of lackluster the one game I saw it used, it could probably be buffed to 8 people.

    ---------

    PUPPET

    @Qwertystop: Mass Assault is meant to be 1d8 no matter how many.. but honestly it's a badly written alteration and it was removed in the new version. I generally agree with everything you said - the current puppet does almost nothing until the upper tiers, and even then what it does is very expensive.

    I'm going to share my Puppet rewrite here:

    Spoiler: Puppet
    Show

    Base Alteration: You can freely form tiny puppets, marionettes, and the like made of flesh/fur/etc. These creations are connected to you by one or more thin cords (which can be flesh, hair, etc), and count as you for the purposes of spells and effects. You can move your puppets like any other body part. The cords can lengthen and retract as needed, with a maximum range of 5’. Puppets can benefit from any of your other alterations, although the puppets created by this base alteration cannot be used to attack or perform fine motions (although you can see through eyes you give them and the like). Puppets cannot move objects that weigh more than 1lb. Like any body part, damage dealt to puppets is dealt to you and spells and effects targeted at them are actually targeted at you. You cannot form puppets that are attached to other puppets, and all puppets you form must initially be within 5’ of yourself.


    Tier 1 Advance Alterations:

    1fp – Lethal Puppeteering
    You can use your dexterity modifier instead of strength for determining the damage of your unarmed strikes. Furthermore, you can, as an action, have one of your puppets make an unarmed strike (1 + strength or dexterity modifier bludgeoning damage) against any creature within 5’ of them.

    Whenever you or one of your puppets make a melee attack against a creature, you may use a bonus action to have a different puppet within 5’ of that creature make an unarmed strike against the same target. If both attacks hit, the target takes an additional 1d4 bludgeoning damage.

    2fp - Parasite Puppets
    You can, as an action, have one of your puppets attempt to attach themselves to a creature within 5' of them and within the maximum range of their cord. If unwilling, the creature must make a dexterity saving throw. On a success this effect does nothing. Otherwise, the puppet attaches itself to their body for 10 minutes (after which point it detaches). The effected creature cannot move beyond the maximum reach of your cords while so attached. A creature attached to your puppet(s), that is not charmed, may use an action to make a strength saving throw. On a success the creature detaches itself from the puppet. You can choose to end this effect ahead of time as an action or bonus action, detaching any number of puppets. If you move farther away from the creature than the maximum range of your cords the puppet automatically detatches.

    You can telepathically communicate with creatures attached to your puppets. This does not give you the ability to comprehend languages you do not know, but images/feelings/etc can also be communicated this way.

    1fp – Persuasive Parasites (Requires Parasite Puppet)
    You can, as a bonus action, choose a creature currently attached to your puppet(s). That creature must make a wisdom saving throw. On a failure, the creature is charmed by you while attached to the puppet. The charmed creature regards you as a friendly acquaintance. If you or one of your companions do anything harmful to the creature it ceases to be charmed (but is still attached to your puppet). When this effect ends, the target knows they were charmed.

    After using this ability, you must finish a short or long rest before using it again. You may make this alteration multiple times, each time increasing the number of times you may use this ability before resting by one.

    1fp – Puppet Self
    Your body becomes more resilient and puppet-like, increasing your current and maximum HP by 5. When this alteration is unmade you lose 5 hit points and your maximum HP is reduced by 5.

    Furthermore, as an action you may choose any period of time, such as “one minute” or “three weeks”, and enter a hibernation state for that period of time. While in this state you are unconscious and each week that passes counts as one hour for the purpose of starvation and dehydration. If you take damage while in this state this effect immediately ends.

    1fp – Lengthy Cords
    The maximum range of the cords connecting your puppets increases to 40’. Moving your puppets away from you uses your movement. For example, if you had 30' of movement you could move 15' with your puppets, then have one of your puppets move 15' away from you on their own.

    If your puppets are in a different square they can be attacked separately, although they are still actually a part of you for all purposes including armor class (although puppets do not benefit from any worn armor / shields you possess).

    1fp - Twitching Strings (Requires Lengthy Cords)
    You can, a bonus action, gain additional movement for one turn. This increase is equal to your speed. This additional movement can only be used by your puppets (I.E. you can use it to move your puppets around but not yourself).

    Tier II Advanced Alterations:

    2fp – Deadly Coordination (Requires Lethal Puppeteering)
    Once per turn, when a creature is successfully attacked by at least two of your puppets in the same turn, or by you and at least one of your puppets in the same turn, or by at least one of your puppets whose attack roll had advantage due to a Help action, you may have the attacked creature take an additional 2d4 bludgeoning damage.

    In addition, you can treat the Help action as a Puppet Trait alteration-granted ability for the purposes of Multi-Assault and Focus Surge. Furthermore, you can, as an action, have one of your puppets use the Help action. This functions as normal, except your puppets can also use the Help action to aid you or one of your other puppets in combat despite being a part of you. You still cannot use the Help action to give yourself advantage on an ability check.

    2fp – Advanced Puppet (Requires Lengthy Cords)
    You can form up to a single puppet at a time that is as large as you are or one size category smaller. This more powerful puppet can move any objects you could and can be used to perform any actions you could perform (such as attacking with a weapon). You must spend your own actions to have the puppet do this – it is still just a part of your body. Any use limitations are shared between yourself and all of your puppets (e.g. if an ability can only be used twice before resting, and both you and a puppet use that ability, neither you nor your puppets can use it again before resting). If you make the Swallow alteration (from the Orifice Trait), all creatures swallowed by your puppets end up in your stomach (you do not gain an arbitrary number of stomachs).

    You may make this alteration multiple times, each time increasing the number of advanced puppets you can have formed at the same time by one.

    2fp – Collapsing Puppets
    Whenever you use your base puppet alteration to change your Inner Nature you may choose to sacrifice up to 25hp, reducing your maximum HP by the same amount. Your puppets gain a separate HP total equal to twice the amount of HP sacrificed (50hp). If the puppets are dealt damage it is subtracted from their own HP instead of yours. If your puppet(s) would be reduced to 0 HP they are instead unformed. Whenever the puppet(s) are unformed (whether by damage or as a part of altering your Inner Nature) you regain HP equal to one half the amount of HP the puppet(s) had remaining (rounded down), and your maximum HP total is increased by one-half the unformed puppet(s) maximum HP.

    You may choose to further define the HP totals of individual puppets so long as the total sum is equal to the amount you sacrificed when creating them, puppets that would have 0hp are simply not effected by this alteration. Non-damaging effects targeting the puppets still effect you as normal.

    For example, you could choose to have all of your puppets share their 50hp. Damage dealt to any puppet would reduce this total, and at 0hp they would all unform. Alternately, you could give 25hp to one puppet and 25hp to another puppet. Damage dealt to other puppets would not effect the hp total of these chosen puppets, and damage dealt to any puppet not effected by this ability would be dealt to you as normal.

    You cannot use this ability if any of your puppets already have an HP total (e.g. you cannot use it twice to give puppets even more hp).

    1fp – Missing Strings
    Your puppets may have cords that technically don’t exist. Such strings may have no form at all, or they might look transparent/ghostly. The range of your puppets does not change – if a puppet would move out of range it is restrained as though it still had a cord connecting it to you.

    2fp - Essence Shift
    You may, as an action, transfer your essence to one of your puppets. The puppet transforms into you while your former body transforms into the puppet. Any gear worn by you and/or the puppet remains at its previous location (if it does not fit you/your puppet it falls to the ground). Any other puppets connected to you either reform within 5’ of your new location or unform (your choice).

    After using this ability twice, you must finish a short or long rest before using it again. You may make this alteration multiple times, each time increasing the number of times you can use this ability before needing to finish a short or long rest by one.

    Tier III Advanced Alterations:

    2fp – Empty Doll (Requires Advanced Puppet and Missing Strings)
    The special puppets created by your Advanced Puppet alteration are no longer connected to you and have no maximum range, although they still count as being a part of your body. These empty dolls still do not have their own actions, although they can use their own movement. Such puppets have a walking speed of 30’.

    1fp – Barrier Puppets (Requires Collapsing Puppets)
    Spells and effects targeted at any of your puppets that have their own HP total do not effect you unless they affect the mind of their target. This also includes spells and effects whose area includes your puppets but not you (the puppets are still affected). Your own abilities, spells, etc treat the puppets as a part of you as normal.

    Furthermore, you may choose to sacrifice up to 60hp instead of 25hp when using the ability granted by your Collapsing Puppets alteration.

    1fp - Invasive Parasites (Requires Persuasive Parasites)
    Whenever a creature fails their wisdom saving throw against the ability granted by the Persuasive Parasites alteration, you may choose to have that creature forget everything that happened during the past ten minutes. Furthermore, after the charm effect ends the target forgets everything that that happened while they were charmed. This may result in them not even knowing they were charmed in the first place.

    Finally, when you use the ability granted by the Parasitic Puppets alteration you may increase the duration from from 10 minutes to one hour.

    2fp – Doll Breaking Motions
    You can, as a bonus action, deal 10 damage to yourself in order to gain advantage on all strength-based skill and ability checks until the beginning of your next turn. Furthermore, your alteration-granted attacks deal an additional 1d6 damage until the beginning of your next turn.

    If you’ve made the “Collapsing Puppets” alteration, you can choose to deal the 10 damage to one or more of your puppets instead. If you do, only puppets damaged this way gain the benefits of using this ability.


    Tier IV Advanced Alterations:

    6fp – Independent Dolls (Requires Advanced Puppet)
    You gain one additional action per turn that can only be used by the special puppets created by your Advanced Puppet alteration. This action does not benefit from Multiassault, Extra Attack, or similar class features.

    2fp - Subjugating Parasites (requires Parasite Puppets)
    Once per turn, you may use a bonus action to give a command to one or more creatures attached to your puppets. Until the beginning of your next turn, the commanded creatures take 2d10 psychic damage and become restrained until the beginning of your next turn the first time they intentionally disobey or refuse to obey the command.

    2fp – Ephemeral Host (Requires Essence Shift)
    You can use the ability granted by the Essence Shift alteration as a reaction. Once you use the ability this way you must finish a short or long rest before using it as a reaction again. You can still use the ability as a regular action, should you have any remaining uses.

    2fp – Phantom Puppets
    You can create ghostly puppets that have no physical form. Both these puppets and their cords can look like anything you want, up to a maximum size of Colossal and a minimum size of tiny, but are insubstantial and cannot interact with anything regardless of what other abilities they possess (For example, they could not attack a creature with “Dissolving Glare”). These puppets are similar to illusions except they cannot be dispelled. The puppets can be seen, heard, and smelled but not touched. You can use the puppet’s senses as normal. The puppets can walk in any direction (effectively flight). These insubstantial puppets can pass through any kind of barrier, such as a door or a wall of force. If you have made the essence shift alteration you may use it with any phantom puppets that are not currently overlapping with a solid object.

    Only puppets connected to you can be phantom puppets, you can’t use this ability with puppets benefiting from the Empty Dolls alteration. Puppets effected by the Missing Strings alteration can still be Phantom Puppets as long as they’re still connected to you.

    1fp – Puppeteer Puppets (Requires Advanced Puppets)
    You can form puppets connected to the special puppets created by your Advanced Puppet alteration. These puppets treat the advanced puppet they’re connected to as “You”.


    Biggest changes:

    > The charming aspect of parasite was split from the base attachment ability. The base ability is now an at-will movement limiter that doubles as early telepathy (with a lot of caveats). Charming is still use-based.
    > The combat abilities of puppet now revolve around group combat and work WITH attacking methods of other traits instead of being bad replacements.
    > Puppet tier III replaced Crazed Puppeteering with something more dependable.
    > True Spawn was replaced with Phantom Puppets, which I think is pretty cool without the setting-breaking potential.


    I agree that puppet is only a part of this class because it's always been a part of the Ozodrin. But the effect is so complex it can't reasonably be folded into another trait as 1-2 alterations.

    @Qwertystop (x3): On the art.. neat! :D
    Last edited by Magikeeper; 2020-05-14 at 09:01 PM.

  4. - Top - End - #94
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    Default Re: Ozodrin (5E Conversion, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Magikeeper View Post
    @Qwertystop: On Grand..err.. Supreme Charge - Razor Fins prevent AoOs from anything you damage. As for the damage, no you're not missing anything (except maybe using sizing flesh / long tentacle alteration to hit far more enemies and Sprinting Fins to up Razor Fin damage) - one of the very specific requirements to pull it off is that you must be fighting an army comprised of low-level enemies that can be killed by 3d6 damage. In 3.5 it'd be a non-issue, but in 5E there's been a clear design philosophy to prevent high-level PCs from killing arbitrary numbers of weak enemies with one mighty flex. Supreme Charge lets you razor fin hundreds of enemies in one round if the positioning is right.

    I don't imagine it ever coming up in an actual game unless the player actively tries to make it happen, but a level 16 PC basically having a 2/short rest 3d6 AOE line attack that's possibly over 1000 feet long might scare some 5E DMs.
    As written:
    - Razor Fins' range doesn't care about your reach; 5' no matter what you might do. And I would argue that it doesn't necessarily even fall under the "if it makes sense" expansion on Long Tentacles, because if your tentacles are long enough to hit someone ten feet from you they're going to whack hard on someone five feet from you. Unless you go straight through them which is admittedly plausible on a decent roll. Fine, granted.
    - I did miss the Sprinting Fins boost to Razor Fins.
    - There's still that the other combo I listed gives you most of the same mass-shredder combo – only six times base speed, instead of a potential... ten to fifty (?) depending on how many actions go to Dash vs. proper attacks... but you can turn, which makes it a lot easier to hit more targets with it. And unlike Supreme Charge it's not per-day limited.


    On the other non-puppet comments:
    > There is a tentacle alteration that increases range (Long Tentacles), Palette ability (Which was first a bonus feat for the OG Ozodrin IIRC) became the Refined Palette tier II Orifice alteration, Eye trait has Proclaiming Gaze.
    > 5E has definitely made a serious effort to stop PCs from being able to play burrow whack-a-mole and I think that's for the best as it is such a strong maneuver. That said, Digging Fins was kind of lackluster the one game I saw it used, it could probably be buffed to 8 people.
    Okay, another couple of things I missed. Typo, incidentally – the mouthpart is "palate", a "palette" is where paints go. I did miss Proclaiming Gaze entirely; it seems a bit higher-level that I would expect? Especially as compared to Murmuring Glare... they're both situational, and fairly similar. Fair point on the strength of a burrow speed, but even so, landshark. Perhaps if you couldn't Withdraw and earth-swim at the same time, so the melee enemies always get AOO chances in addition to the existing ranged enemies being able to ready actions for you? Or the transition from above to under is slower than the movement under, because limbs above ground aren't helping dig, so there's a round to hit you while you're diving? Or, I don't know, at least adjust Digging Fins to allow, say, construction of tunnels at a specified rate, instead of DMs needing to ad-hoc a number based on whatever knowledge they may or may not have of hole-digging? Assuming there's not a table for that in the corebooks somewhere I haven't read.


    PUPPET

    @Qwertystop: Mass Assault is meant to be 1d8 no matter how many.. but honestly it's a badly written alteration and it was removed in the new version. I generally agree with everything you said - the current puppet does almost nothing until the upper tiers, and even then what it does is very expensive.

    I'm going to share my Puppet rewrite here:

    Spoiler: Puppet
    Show

    Base Alteration: You can freely form tiny puppets, marionettes, and the like made of flesh/fur/etc. These creations are connected to you by one or more thin cords (which can be flesh, hair, etc), and count as you for the purposes of spells and effects. You can move your puppets like any other body part. The cords can lengthen and retract as needed, with a maximum range of 5’. Puppets can benefit from any of your other alterations, although the puppets created by this base alteration cannot be used to attack or perform fine motions (although you can see through eyes you give them and the like). Puppets cannot move objects that weigh more than 1lb. Like any body part, damage dealt to puppets is dealt to you and spells and effects targeted at them are actually targeted at you. You cannot form puppets that are attached to other puppets, and all puppets you form must initially be within 5’ of yourself.


    Tier 1 Advance Alterations:

    1fp – Lethal Puppeteering
    You can use your dexterity modifier instead of strength for determining the damage of your unarmed strikes. Furthermore, you can, as an action, have one of your puppets make an unarmed strike (1 + strength or dexterity modifier bludgeoning damage) against any creature within 5’ of them.

    Whenever you or one of your puppets make a melee attack against a creature, you may use a bonus action to have a different puppet within 5’ of that creature make an unarmed strike against the same target. If both attacks hit, the target takes an additional 1d4 bludgeoning damage.

    2fp - Parasite Puppets
    You can, as an action, have one of your puppets attempt to attach themselves to a creature within 5' of them and within the maximum range of their cord. If unwilling, the creature must make a dexterity saving throw. On a success this effect does nothing. Otherwise, the puppet attaches itself to their body for 10 minutes (after which point it detaches). The effected creature cannot move beyond the maximum reach of your cords while so attached. A creature attached to your puppet(s), that is not charmed, may use an action to make a strength saving throw. On a success the creature detaches itself from the puppet. You can choose to end this effect ahead of time as an action or bonus action, detaching any number of puppets. If you move farther away from the creature than the maximum range of your cords the puppet automatically detatches.

    You can telepathically communicate with creatures attached to your puppets. This does not give you the ability to comprehend languages you do not know, but images/feelings/etc can also be communicated this way.

    1fp – Persuasive Parasites (Requires Parasite Puppet)
    You can, as a bonus action, choose a creature currently attached to your puppet(s). That creature must make a wisdom saving throw. On a failure, the creature is charmed by you while attached to the puppet. The charmed creature regards you as a friendly acquaintance. If you or one of your companions do anything harmful to the creature it ceases to be charmed (but is still attached to your puppet). When this effect ends, the target knows they were charmed.

    After using this ability, you must finish a short or long rest before using it again. You may make this alteration multiple times, each time increasing the number of times you may use this ability before resting by one.

    1fp – Puppet Self
    Your body becomes more resilient and puppet-like, increasing your current and maximum HP by 5. When this alteration is unmade you lose 5 hit points and your maximum HP is reduced by 5.

    Furthermore, as an action you may choose any period of time, such as “one minute” or “three weeks”, and enter a hibernation state for that period of time. While in this state you are unconscious and each week that passes counts as one hour for the purpose of starvation and dehydration. If you take damage while in this state this effect immediately ends.

    1fp – Lengthy Cords
    The maximum range of the cords connecting your puppets increases to 40’. Moving your puppets away from you uses your movement. For example, if you had 30' of movement you could move 15' with your puppets, then have one of your puppets move 15' away from you on their own.

    If your puppets are in a different square they can be attacked separately, although they are still actually a part of you for all purposes including armor class (although puppets do not benefit from any worn armor / shields you possess).

    1fp - Twitching Strings (Requires Lengthy Cords)
    You can, a bonus action, gain additional movement for one turn. This increase is equal to your speed. This additional movement can only be used by your puppets (I.E. you can use it to move your puppets around but not yourself).

    Tier II Advanced Alterations:

    2fp – Deadly Coordination (Requires Lethal Puppeteering)
    Once per turn, when a creature is successfully attacked by at least two of your puppets in the same turn, or by you and at least one of your puppets in the same turn, or by at least one of your puppets whose attack roll had advantage due to a Help action, you may have the attacked creature take an additional 2d4 bludgeoning damage.

    In addition, you can treat the Help action as a Puppet Trait alteration-granted ability for the purposes of Multi-Assault and Focus Surge. Furthermore, you can, as an action, have one of your puppets use the Help action. This functions as normal, except your puppets can also use the Help action to aid you or one of your other puppets in combat despite being a part of you. You still cannot use the Help action to give yourself advantage on an ability check.

    2fp – Advanced Puppet (Requires Lengthy Cords)
    You can form up to a single puppet at a time that is as large as you are or one size category smaller. This more powerful puppet can move any objects you could and can be used to perform any actions you could perform (such as attacking with a weapon). You must spend your own actions to have the puppet do this – it is still just a part of your body. Any use limitations are shared between yourself and all of your puppets (e.g. if an ability can only be used twice before resting, and both you and a puppet use that ability, neither you nor your puppets can use it again before resting). If you make the Swallow alteration (from the Orifice Trait), all creatures swallowed by your puppets end up in your stomach (you do not gain an arbitrary number of stomachs).

    You may make this alteration multiple times, each time increasing the number of advanced puppets you can have formed at the same time by one.

    2fp – Collapsing Puppets
    Whenever you use your base puppet alteration to change your Inner Nature you may choose to sacrifice up to 25hp, reducing your maximum HP by the same amount. Your puppets gain a separate HP total equal to twice the amount of HP sacrificed (50hp). If the puppets are dealt damage it is subtracted from their own HP instead of yours. If your puppet(s) would be reduced to 0 HP they are instead unformed. Whenever the puppet(s) are unformed (whether by damage or as a part of altering your Inner Nature) you regain HP equal to one half the amount of HP the puppet(s) had remaining (rounded down), and your maximum HP total is increased by one-half the unformed puppet(s) maximum HP.

    You may choose to further define the HP totals of individual puppets so long as the total sum is equal to the amount you sacrificed when creating them, puppets that would have 0hp are simply not effected by this alteration. Non-damaging effects targeting the puppets still effect you as normal.

    For example, you could choose to have all of your puppets share their 50hp. Damage dealt to any puppet would reduce this total, and at 0hp they would all unform. Alternately, you could give 25hp to one puppet and 25hp to another puppet. Damage dealt to other puppets would not effect the hp total of these chosen puppets, and damage dealt to any puppet not effected by this ability would be dealt to you as normal.

    You cannot use this ability if any of your puppets already have an HP total (e.g. you cannot use it twice to give puppets even more hp).

    1fp – Missing Strings
    Your puppets may have cords that technically don’t exist. Such strings may have no form at all, or they might look transparent/ghostly. The range of your puppets does not change – if a puppet would move out of range it is restrained as though it still had a cord connecting it to you.

    2fp - Essence Shift
    You may, as an action, transfer your essence to one of your puppets. The puppet transforms into you while your former body transforms into the puppet. Any gear worn by you and/or the puppet remains at its previous location (if it does not fit you/your puppet it falls to the ground). Any other puppets connected to you either reform within 5’ of your new location or unform (your choice).

    After using this ability twice, you must finish a short or long rest before using it again. You may make this alteration multiple times, each time increasing the number of times you can use this ability before needing to finish a short or long rest by one.

    Tier III Advanced Alterations:

    2fp – Empty Doll (Requires Advanced Puppet and Missing Strings)
    The special puppets created by your Advanced Puppet alteration are no longer connected to you and have no maximum range, although they still count as being a part of your body. These empty dolls still do not have their own actions, although they can use their own movement. Such puppets have a walking speed of 30’.

    1fp – Barrier Puppets (Requires Collapsing Puppets)
    Spells and effects targeted at any of your puppets that have their own HP total do not effect you unless they affect the mind of their target. This also includes spells and effects whose area includes your puppets but not you (the puppets are still affected). Your own abilities, spells, etc treat the puppets as a part of you as normal.

    Furthermore, you may choose to sacrifice up to 60hp instead of 25hp when using the ability granted by your Collapsing Puppets alteration.

    1fp - Invasive Parasites (Requires Persuasive Parasites)
    Whenever a creature fails their wisdom saving throw against the ability granted by the Persuasive Parasites alteration, you may choose to have that creature forget everything that happened during the past ten minutes. Furthermore, after the charm effect ends the target forgets everything that that happened while they were charmed. This may result in them not even knowing they were charmed in the first place.

    Finally, when you use the ability granted by the Parasitic Puppets alteration you may increase the duration from from 10 minutes to one hour.

    2fp – Doll Breaking Motions
    You can, as a bonus action, deal 10 damage to yourself in order to gain advantage on all strength-based skill and ability checks until the beginning of your next turn. Furthermore, your alteration-granted attacks deal an additional 1d6 damage until the beginning of your next turn.

    If you’ve made the “Collapsing Puppets” alteration, you can choose to deal the 10 damage to one or more of your puppets instead. If you do, only puppets damaged this way gain the benefits of using this ability.


    Tier IV Advanced Alterations:

    6fp – Independent Dolls (Requires Advanced Puppet)
    You gain one additional action per turn that can only be used by the special puppets created by your Advanced Puppet alteration. This action does not benefit from Multiassault, Extra Attack, or similar class features.

    2fp - Subjugating Parasites (requires Parasite Puppets)
    Once per turn, you may use a bonus action to give a command to one or more creatures attached to your puppets. Until the beginning of your next turn, the commanded creatures take 2d10 psychic damage and become restrained until the beginning of your next turn the first time they intentionally disobey or refuse to obey the command.

    2fp – Ephemeral Host (Requires Essence Shift)
    You can use the ability granted by the Essence Shift alteration as a reaction. Once you use the ability this way you must finish a short or long rest before using it as a reaction again. You can still use the ability as a regular action, should you have any remaining uses.

    2fp – Phantom Puppets
    You can create ghostly puppets that have no physical form. Both these puppets and their cords can look like anything you want, up to a maximum size of Colossal and a minimum size of tiny, but are insubstantial and cannot interact with anything regardless of what other abilities they possess (For example, they could not attack a creature with “Dissolving Glare”). These puppets are similar to illusions except they cannot be dispelled. The puppets can be seen, heard, and smelled but not touched. You can use the puppet’s senses as normal. The puppets can walk in any direction (effectively flight). These insubstantial puppets can pass through any kind of barrier, such as a door or a wall of force. If you have made the essence shift alteration you may use it with any phantom puppets that are not currently overlapping with a solid object.

    Only puppets connected to you can be phantom puppets, you can’t use this ability with puppets benefiting from the Empty Dolls alteration. Puppets effected by the Missing Strings alteration can still be Phantom Puppets as long as they’re still connected to you.

    1fp – Puppeteer Puppets (Requires Advanced Puppets)
    You can form puppets connected to the special puppets created by your Advanced Puppet alteration. These puppets treat the advanced puppet they’re connected to as “You”.


    Biggest changes:

    > The charming aspect of parasite was split from the base attachment ability. The base ability is now an at-will movement limiter that doubles as early telepathy (with a lot of caveats). Charming is still use-based.
    > The combat abilities of puppet now revolve around group combat and work WITH attacking methods of other traits instead of being bad replacements.
    > Puppet tier III replaced Crazed Puppeteering with something more dependable.
    > True Spawn was replaced with Phantom Puppets, which I think is pretty cool without the setting-breaking potential.


    I agree that puppet is only a part of this class because it's always been a part of the Ozodrin. But the effect is so complex it can't reasonably be folded into another trait as 1-2 alterations.

    @Qwertystop (x3): On the art.. neat! :D
    Lethal Puppeteering is more reasonable. Splitting off the Charm from the Parasite is maybe not necessary, but sure. There's still a mention of the Charm effect in the Parasite part. Lengthy Cords... moving away costs movement, moving towards doesn't? Still feels weird overall, as the one non-body-part thing, but you at least took out the most broken single thing and put a bit more focus in.
    Quote Originally Posted by jamieth View Post
    ...though Talla does her best to sound objective and impartial, it doesn't cover stuff like "ask a 9-year-old to tank for the party."
    My Homebrew

  5. - Top - End - #95
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    Default Re: Ozodrin (5E Conversion, PEACH)

    Okay, I was busier this weekend than expected. Let's pretend Monday is part of the weekend. >.>

    On Fins: I forgot it was changed to 5', tbh. I also forgot that the combo could pass a mile in distance, that better matches my feeling regarding it. >.>

    On typos: Thanks for catching those! I'll fix them when I update puppet.

    Glares: Proclaiming is with anything you can see, which is a bit better than most telepathy abilities (particularly for an Ozodrin). Also, Tier II is the last tier of abilities all Ozodrin get (At level 16), while Tier III and above are things that can only be acquired via archetype choices. I felt at-will sight-range telepathy should be tied more strongly to the Eye trait. Murmoring could be used for communication in a pinch but it's more a variation on suggestion-type effects.

    Digging: Digging fins was really meant more for trenches, pits, etc, as another circumstantial non-combat capability since I tried to ensure all early level Ozodrin have some of those. Any kind of super tunneling alteration would need to be at a higher tier, and tier II/III fin are already pretty good. Also take note Tier 2 stomach alteration could be combined with your idea to have the entire party rising and sinking from the earth. Being the Party Bus is harder to pull off than in 3.5 but not impossible.

    On Parasite: Charm had to be split off because the base effect is now at-will, and an at-will charm effect that effects all creature types would be too powerful in 5E. Lengthy Cords... that's not how it's supposed to work, no. Puppet movement has always been a convoluted mess. :/


    Had an idea for Fin Tier IV... unfortunately it's also convoluted or rather the basic idea is simple but there are too many corner cases and I don't know how easy it is to understand it... which is a shame as it's a neat ability with quite a variety of uses:

    Spoiler: Chronal Diving
    Show

    2fp – Chronal Diving (Requires Strange Movement)
    Whenever you use the ability granted by your Strange Movement alteration, you may choose to not arrive anywhere at all, effectively ceasing to exist for up to one hour as you dive into the future. While in this state you are aware of what is happening in your surroundings but cannot otherwise move, take actions, or interact with anything that is going on. The duration of any spells or effects currently effecting you do not count the time you spend not existing. You may choose to end this effect at any time.

    When the effect ends, you immediately reappear in the nearest open space and take the rest of your turn. If you ended this effect during one or more other creatures’ turn, those creature(s) do not get to finish their turn until after you have finished yours at which point the temporal ripples caused by your actions have completely straightened out. You do not provoke AoOs until the end of your turn.

    If there are any creatures inside you (such as by using the Stomach alteration from the orifice trait), they likewise cease to exist when you do and reappear (still inside of you) when you do. For example, if a creature inside you was dying it would not need to make any death saving throws until reappearing. HOWEVER, upon reappearing any such creatures are Incapacitated until the end of your turn, at which point they can roll for initiative normally and/or go when their next turn comes up as normal.
    Last edited by Magikeeper; 2020-05-18 at 04:27 AM.

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    Default Re: Ozodrin (5E Conversion, PEACH)

    I have updated puppet. I also removed the Tier I alteration "Twitching Strings" and the tier IV alteration "Ephemeral Host". I rewrote Lengthy Cords and added "Skittering Gallery" to tier IV. Some other small changes were made as well.

    Spoiler: new Lengthy Cords and Skittering Gallery
    Show

    Tier 1

    1fp – Lengthy Cords
    As a bonus action, you can extend the range of the cords connecting you to up to three of your puppets to a maximum of 40'. Whenever you use your movement you may move these puppets the same amount of distance. Alternately, you may also use your movement to move your puppets without moving yourself. For example, if you had 30' of movement you could move 15' forward while having three of your puppets move 15' forward and 15' to the side (a total of 30').

    If your puppets are in a different square they can be attacked separately, although they are still actually a part of you for all purposes including armor class (although puppets do not benefit from any worn armor / shields you possess).

    If you are already extending the range of three puppets beyond 5' you cannot extend the range of any other puppets at the same time.

    Furthermore, as a bonus action you can reduce the maximum range of any puppet effected by this alteration. The puppet must already be within its new range. For example, if you want to reduce a puppet's range from 40' to 20' it must already be within 20' of you.

    ---------------
    Tier IV

    2fp - Skittering Gallery
    The maximum range of all of your puppets increases from 5' to 20'. Whenever you use your movement you may move these puppets the same amount of distance. Alternately, you may also use your movement to move your puppets without moving yourself. For example, if you had 30' of movement you could move 15' forward while having three of your puppets move 15' forward and 15' to the side (a total of 30').

    If your puppets are in a different square they can be attacked separately, although they are still actually a part of you for all purposes including armor class (although puppets do not benefit from any worn armor / shields you possess).

    If you have made the Lengthy Cords alteration, puppets effected by the ability it grants can have their maximum range extended to a maximum of 120' instead of 40'.


    As a reminder, regular puppets can't attack or perform fine motions.

    Edit: I also changed Far Reaching Glares (Eye Tier III alteration), now Far Reaching Gaze, and buffed unbound reception (Can no longer be surprised / gain advantage on perception checks in addition to previous benefit).

    Spoiler: Far Reaching Gaze
    Show

    2fp – Far Reaching Gaze
    The range of the abilities granted by your Dissolving, Disorienting, Rejecting, Binding, and/or Murmuring Glare alterations increases to 300'. This alteration does not give you access to any abilities you do not already have.

    Furthermore, distance does not hinder your ability to determine the fine details of objects and creatures within 600' of your eyes.


    EDIT: I have changed Unbound Reception again. It no longer gives advantage on perception checks (RIP ability buff that lasted ~12 hours), but the base effect is stronger now. You still can't be surprised. I also slightly tweaked the wording of Decentralized Perception but the effect is the same.

    EDIT 2: Unbound Reception is now 2->3fp, because.. well because I think its worth it now. The Tier IV Nth Dimensional Flesh alteration has had the ability to take it multiple times removed, was increased to 15' range, and now lets you squeeze into mundane spaces in addition to extra dimensional ones. ...And I've just realized that possibly creates an utterly absurd attacking strategy... I might need to remove the mundane space squeezing...

    EDIT 3: Removed the mundane space squeezing, too many completely broken things you could do with that.
    Last edited by Magikeeper; 2020-05-20 at 12:43 AM.

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    Default Re: Ozodrin (5E Conversion, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Qwertystop View Post
    Oh, regarding art – as I said, I'm playing this in an upcoming game, and at least seriously considering doing character art for it. Haven't had the time and energy lately, with everything going on, but I'm hopeful at getting around to it some time this month.
    Forgot I'd said this when I did the art, but here it is. Κανείς (Kaneis), the Neverwas. Fin primary, Flesh/Spike secondary, homebrew Nyxborn race by LaZodiac, who is running that game.

    Spoiler: Image
    Show
    Last edited by Qwertystop; 2020-07-24 at 12:54 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by jamieth View Post
    ...though Talla does her best to sound objective and impartial, it doesn't cover stuff like "ask a 9-year-old to tank for the party."
    My Homebrew

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    Default Re: Ozodrin (5E Conversion, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Qwertystop View Post
    Forgot I'd said this when I did the art, but here it is. Κανείς (Kaneis), the Neverwas. Fin primary, Flesh/Spike secondary, homebrew Nyxborn race by LaZodiac, who is running that game.[/SPOILER]

    Neat! I never did think of something to do with Supreme Charge (Chronal Diving wasn't very popular, alas). Hrm.. was there anything else I was going to work on before making a pdf...?

    Please do share how it goes~
    Last edited by Magikeeper; 2020-07-28 at 08:04 PM.

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    Default Re: Ozodrin (5E Conversion, PEACH)

    You could get a lot of the same effect as Chronal Diving out of something like ghosts' Etherealness, which is much shorter. Alternately, you could cut a lot out of Chronal Diving just by removing the bit where you can explicitly use it to insert your turn into the middle of someone else's.

    EDIT: Oh, I saw above you were considering moving Unarmored Defense from level 1 to 2 to reduce the power of a one-level dip – currently, level 3 is less impressive than either, Unearthly Power is very situational.
    Last edited by Qwertystop; 2020-07-28 at 09:28 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by jamieth View Post
    ...though Talla does her best to sound objective and impartial, it doesn't cover stuff like "ask a 9-year-old to tank for the party."
    My Homebrew

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    Default Re: Ozodrin (5E Conversion, PEACH)

    Excited to hear a preliminary version of the pdf might be coming soon. Will you be using GMbinder or Homebrewery to make it, or another service? In addition you might want to consider running everything through a spelling and grammar checker. Most of it is fine, and the checkers can be annoying about proper nouns and game terms, but it could do with a little bit of polish.

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    Default Re: Ozodrin (5E Conversion, PEACH)

    As a massive fan of the class through its release across multiple editions, I'm super excited to try it, but after thinking of trying a Puppet Primary character, I'm having a hard time figuring out what to do with it. I also saw after reading through some old notes that there hasn't really been a lot of feedback on it. What is the intention, combat-wise?

    If you were allowed to pick Tentacle as a Secondary and put them on puppets, that seems fairly solid, since it would allow you to attack targets farther away than normal (even if they understandably didn't threaten for AoOs), but it looks like that's expressly forbidden. The damage from Lethal Puppeteering also seems negligeable, especially given that the puppets are still vulnerable to Attacks of Opportunity and count as you for the purpose of getting attacked. Parasite Puppets seems like a really cool ability, but it also mostly keeps people near your d8, generally low AC squishy body. Persuasive Parasites is very neat. Lengthy Cords is also good, but as noted above, if they can't be the source of an attack (such as a tentacle feature placed on them), there's really no reason to move them around the battlefield, as you're basically just giving the bad guys more surface area to kill you. I could kind of see Lethal Puppeteering doing something to help, but I can't see its numbers getting me through to level 6 when you start having access to fancy stuff in your Secondaries.

    Barring the tentacles on the puppets being able to attack, you're basically going to have to be protected, keep your puppets fully reeled in so you don't get targeted, and attack with your d6 tentacle from your own square until level 6, while occasionally getting off a charm if you're close.

    This isn't a criticism, I just feel like I'm probably missing something that makes this a whole lot less scary.
    Last edited by babus; 2020-08-24 at 02:45 AM.

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    Default Re: Ozodrin (5E Conversion, PEACH)

    Puppet Primary: We don't have much/any playtest data for puppet, no. On surviving the first six levels:
    > It has unarmored defense and doesn't really need anything except DEX and CON which happen to also be what its AC is based off of. It's better off than most monks, at least. EDIT: I forgot I changed Puppet DCs back to be being Cha-based. Okay, it's in a similar boat to monks then, although (Puppet)Ozodrin are hurt less by low CHA than monks are from low CON.
    > The "Puppet Self" alteration gives +5hp, which is more like having a d10/d12 hit die early on.
    >Lethal puppeteering early on could be done with two puppets (Max 1d4+2+2xDEX dmg) but can also be combined with tentacles and such for a max damage that's more like 1d6 + 1d4 + 1 + 2xDEX if you hit with both attacks. So more like you and your puppet attacking enemies together. TWF at those levels is generally something like 2d6 + DEX before factoring in other abilities. Puppet Ozodrin are among the most fragile but their early damage potential is pretty good albeit less dependable than other options.

    You're right there isn't much reason to have puppets running around 40' away from you - lengthy cords is more for parasite/persuasive at that level. There are some niche things you can do - like using Manifest Form to unmake puppets that have been surrounded, delivering potions, checking out small openings, etc - but its not particularly useful in combat until you get advanced / barrier puppets at level 6.

    Parasite Puppet's strongest use is likely how its a way to telepathically link your party members for short periods of time.

    In general, early puppet expects you to be fighting alongside your puppets more often than not.

    -------

    All of that said, it might be weak at low levels. We haven't had anyone try it in practice since it was overhauled (or before, for that matter). I considered increasing the +1d4 damage from lethal to +1d6... I'm not sure that's needed though...
    Last edited by Magikeeper; 2020-08-26 at 03:45 PM.

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    Default Re: Ozodrin (5E Conversion, PEACH)

    Well, in that case, I'll be playtesting it, barring the game exploding, which I have no reason to believe it will. Thank you very much for the response and clarification! As a quick note, I think the Short Rest mechanic benefits the Ozodrin, as it's in a good place between only changing things every 24 hours and being able to just do it whenever.

    In that spirit, here is the character I will be playing.

    Spoiler
    Show
    Siobhan Naisade

    Race: Half Elf (Variant: Elf Weapon Training)
    Background: Variant Entertainer (Puppeteer)
    Class: Ozodrin (Primary: Puppet; Secondary: Eye, Tentacle) [Level 2]
    Hit Points: 17/17 (22/22 with Puppet Self)
    AC: 15

    Attributes (Rolled)

    Strength: 7 (+1) = 8
    Dexterity: 15 (+1) = 16
    Constitution: 14
    Intelligence: 11
    Wisdom: 14
    Charisma: 16 (+2) = 18

    Skill Proficiencies:
    Stealth
    Intimidation
    Performance
    Persuassion

    Armor Proficiencies:
    None

    Weapon Proficiancies:
    Longsword
    Shortsword
    Shortbow
    Longbow

    Custom Background: Variant Entertainer (Puppeteer)
    Skill Proficiencies: Persuassion, Perform
    Tool Proficiencies: Puppet Crafting Kit, one type of musical instrument
    Equipment A musical instrument (one of your choice), the favor of an admirer (love letter, lock of hair, or trinket), a pair of puppets, and a belt pouch containing 15 gp
    Feature: See Entertainer


    Build Notes: Took Half-Elf with Weapon Proficiencies variant in order to qualify for a feat later that upgrades Unarmed Strike damage. Won't really affect the early game for playtesting purposes, but the shortsword and longbow should give me something to do with my Dex if I'm stuck in my Worldly Guise for whatever reason.

    Starting with Puppet Self, Lethal Puppeteering and Lengthy Strings.

    Will try to give some battle data as soon as possible, though it may be a few weeks. The good news is that it's play by post, so it'll be easy to record keep. If you have any requests for specific data or even character advice, I'd be happy to hear it.

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    Default Re: Ozodrin (5E Conversion, PEACH)

    They're quite different from most of the other play-test chars I've tried/seen/etc, very interested in seeing how that goes. I am surprised you picked up intimidation instead of deception, though, give the smoothtalking party face feeling the rest of the char stats are giving off.

    Some data on out-of-combat usefulness of the puppet trait would be good as well~

    Thanks for sharing!

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    Default Re: Ozodrin (5E Conversion, PEACH)

    Alright, I believe I responded to all PMs this time. >.>

    Also cleared out part of my inbox so my messages get sent..


    ---------------------

    Anyway, in D&D 5E blindsight usually describes how it works. I didn't really like Eye's blindsight trait in the first place, and so came up with:

    2fp - Nous Sight
    You gain blindsight 20ft. This blindsight works via your eyes emitting subtle pulses of non-visible psychic energy and then interpreting the echo. Your blindsight can also differentiate between nonthinking objects, emotionless but thinking entities, and emotional entities. In addition, you can roughly sense the mood of emotional beings. If a thinking being is actively trying to conceal itself and/or hide their real emotional state within the range of your blindsight you must beat their hide and/or deception check as normal but gain advantage on the roll made to oppose their check.

    Furthermore, your blindsight can sense telepathic links and telepathic auras, along with the emotions of the ones currently communicating through it. You cannot otherwise sense the contents of the messages.


    ---------------------------------

    This gives more flavor to the blindsight and also continues the telepathic sub-theme Eye has going on.


    I also think I'm going to remove the 600ft limitation on the non-attack telescopic ability of Far Reaching Glare.


    ------------------------

    I've also been looking at "Energy Devouring Flesh". It's currently very silver-bullet-y, which I don't like.. but just making it more general is iffy as energy immunity - even for one round - is nearly impossible to get in D&D 5E. On the other hand, I want Ozodrin's to be able to "eat" energy to survive which requires they have an ability that is better than just resistance.

    I considered moving Acclimating Flesh to Tier II, changing it to 2fp and removing the prerequisite and then removing Energy Devouring Flesh and adding a new T3 Flesh ability... but... Acclimating is even more niche than Energy Devouring Flesh - unless I made it effect all viable energy types which would mean immunity to most forms of continuous energy damage which seems like it might feel too strong..


    EDIT:

    I think I'm going to swap Sophisticated Tentacles and Climbing Limbs. Also swap their costs (Climbing -> 1fp, Sophisticated -> 2fp) and let Climbing Limbs also give advantage to checks made to climb difficult surfaces / avoid being knocked off. This makes Tentacle primary a less mechanically powerful dipping class and gives low-level tentacle primary Ozodrin more out-of-combat use. It does make early tentacle Ozodrin more fragile, granted.


    EDIT 2:
    Went further and changed Coordinated Tentacles as well. Now Climbing Limbs gives the lesser grapple proficiency & Coordinated Tendrils gives grappled foes disadvantage on attacks made against you. This solves STR-based grapplin' Ozodrin having often having low ACs.

    Edit 3: Sophisticated 1fp ->2fp

    Edit 4: Sophisticated 2fp ->1fp

    Spoiler
    Show
    1fp – Climbing Limbs
    You can form limbs that are particularly adept at holding onto and traversing vertical surfaces (small hooks, suction cups, etc). These alterations grants you a climbing speed equal to your walking speed. In addition, you have advantage on ability checks made to climb difficult surfaces.

    Furthermore, you may add half your proficiency modifier to Strength(Athletics) checks made to make grapple attacks.

    1fp - Coordinated Tentacles
    The design of your tendrils facilitates combined usage. As an action, you may move a willing creature within your reach to any other spot within your reach.

    Furthermore, creatures grappled by you have disadvantage on all attack rolls made against you.

    2fp – Sophisticated Tentacles (Requires Coordinated Tentacles)
    Your tentacles are especially well-suited for defending you from attacks, increasing your armor class by 2 whenever you benefit from your Unarmored Defense class feature and are not wearing a shield.

    Furthermore, the refined motions of your tendrils allow you to add half your proficiency bonus to any Dexterity(Sleight of Hand) ability checks made with them. You may treat Dexterity(Slight of Hand) checks as a tentacle-trait granted ability for the purpose of using them with the MultiAssault and/or Focus Surge class features.


    EDIT 5: Revised Windswept Maws to be less cumbersome to use in actual gameplay. New version:

    Spoiler
    Show
    2fp – Windswept Maws
    You may, as a bonus action, suck in or expel large amounts of air. Creatures in a 15’ cone must make a strength saving throw. On a failure, they are pulled 5ft towards you (if you sucked in air) or pushed 10ft away from you (if you expelled air). If you choose to suck in air and a creature that is already adjacent to you fails their strength saving throw, they take damage as though hit by your bite attack. If the creature is large or smaller it is also grappled by you.

    You may choose to instead affect a smaller area, to a minimum cone size of 5’.

    After using this ability twice, you must finish a short or long rest before using it again. You may make this alteration multiple times, each time increasing the number of times you can use the granted ability before needing to finish a short or long rest by two.

    Note: Since it’s a cone attack there is only ever one square/hex that is adjacent to you.
    Last edited by Magikeeper; 2020-11-29 at 04:26 AM.

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    Default Re: Ozodrin (5E Conversion, PEACH)

    I love this class and how it is still being refined and updated. Question. Is the add half proficiency intended to stack with normal proficiency?
    One edition to find them all, and in the basement bind them.

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    Default Re: Ozodrin (5E Conversion, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kerleth View Post
    I love this class and how it is still being refined and updated. Question. Is the add half proficiency intended to stack with normal proficiency?
    Thanks! Also, it does not, no, nor was it intended to do so.

    -----------

    Currently looking into tweaking flesh, specifically the energy devouring stuff. I think Energy Devouring Flesh in particular manages to be fairly weak in most games while sounding OP, is too silver-bullet-ish which I tried to avoid with alterations, is kinda clunky, and gives something that's nearly impossible for a player to get in 5E. Edit: Oh I already mentioned this above in more detail. >.>

    Need to change the Simulacrum example in Decentralized Form as aberrations are not valid targets for that spell in 5E in the first place.

    For Grand Charge... I'm thinking of just reducing the movement multiplier from 10x to something less extreme.

    Also, yes, revamp digging fins somehow. I know people want that.
    Last edited by Magikeeper; 2020-12-16 at 11:21 AM.

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    Default Re: Ozodrin (5E Conversion, PEACH)

    BIG QUESTION:

    Should I slightly reduce the basic weapon DPR of some of the Ozodrin traits? This would be:
    >> Changing deadly spike to +1d6 (so spikes would be 1d8 + 1d6 instead of 2d8)
    >> Removing the ability to TWF with tentacles.
    >> Removing the ability to TWF with mouths.
    >> Change Consuming Glare to +1d6 (So eyes would be 1d8 + 1d6 instead of 2d8)

    I really dislike having different dice for the same damage type tbh, but these numbers would bring Ozodrin more in-line with the basic weapon damage of martials that aren't optimizing w/feats and/or expending resources like Hunter's Mark*. Ozodrin don't have as many ways of temporarily boosting damage as martials have, which mostly balances out the current damage but I want Ozodrin to make its way into as many games as possible and having the highest 24/7 weapon damage out of all classes and such wonders as TWFing with a 2d6 tentacle has some scare factor. Also, it seems that houserules to reduce the number of available rests are common which might make Ozodrin all-day-every-day base damage advantage proportionally stronger.

    Unless someone talks me out of it I'll probably make the change, might slightly tweak other things to give less always-on ways of boosting the damage.

    *Also note several other classes, particularly for archery, have ways of boosting attack rolls while Ozodrin have none. Ozodrin usually don't benefit from magic weapons either. This is significant, and one of the reasons this is more an issue of being strange and having usually high no-rest endurance than actual damage at the table.

    ------------------

    There have been a LOT of tweaks lately as I go over everything before making a pdf. Stuff that I was iffy about is finally getting visited, all of it. Still need to find some free artists to make art for it, granted.

    I'm also trying to figure out how to justify changing consuming glare into an attack roll despite not being an eye-beam. I've always wanted it to be an attack roll, but I just.. can't.. justify it! ;.;
    Last edited by Magikeeper; 2020-12-22 at 08:32 PM.

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    Default Re: Ozodrin (5E Conversion, PEACH)

    I've been playing a game as an Ozodrin (Fin primary, Spike/Flesh secondary) (sheet here) with otherwise no homebrew classes, and I don't think I'm overly strong? And that's with a recent ruling by the GM that Specialized Physique can stack with already having Athletics proficiency (contrary to what you'd intended, assuming the same goes for that as for the half-proficiency that you answered above), though admittedly my Strength is only 10 so it really just situationally compensates for that to bring my Razor Fins roll up to the same bonus as my normal attack.
    Quote Originally Posted by jamieth View Post
    ...though Talla does her best to sound objective and impartial, it doesn't cover stuff like "ask a 9-year-old to tank for the party."
    My Homebrew

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    Default Re: Ozodrin (5E Conversion, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Magikeeper View Post
    BIG QUESTION:

    Should I slightly reduce the basic weapon DPR of some of the Ozodrin traits? This would be:
    >> Changing deadly spike to +1d6 (so spikes would be 1d8 + 1d6 instead of 2d8)
    >> Removing the ability to TWF with tentacles.
    >> Removing the ability to TWF with mouths.
    >> Change Consuming Glare to +1d6 (So eyes would be 1d8 + 1d6 instead of 2d8)

    I really dislike having different dice for the same damage type tbh, but these numbers would bring Ozodrin more in-line with the basic weapon damage of martials that aren't optimizing w/feats and/or expending resources like Hunter's Mark*. Ozodrin don't have as many ways of temporarily boosting damage as martials have, which mostly balances out the current damage but I want Ozodrin to make its way into as many games as possible and having the highest 24/7 weapon damage out of all classes and such wonders as TWFing with a 2d6 tentacle has some scare factor. Also, it seems that houserules to reduce the number of available rests are common which might make Ozodrin all-day-every-day base damage advantage proportionally stronger.

    Unless someone talks me out of it I'll probably make the change, might slightly tweak other things to give less always-on ways of boosting the damage.

    *Also note several other classes, particularly for archery, have ways of boosting attack rolls while Ozodrin have none. Ozodrin usually don't benefit from magic weapons either. This is significant, and one of the reasons this is more an issue of being strange and having usually high no-rest endurance than actual damage at the table.

    ------------------

    There have been a LOT of tweaks lately as I go over everything before making a pdf. Stuff that I was iffy about is finally getting visited, all of it. Still need to find some free artists to make art for it, granted.

    I'm also trying to figure out how to justify changing consuming glare into an attack roll despite not being an eye-beam. I've always wanted it to be an attack roll, but I just.. can't.. justify it! ;.;
    If I may present my two cents.

    I feel like keeping Deadly Spikes at 2d8 is reasonable. It takes till level 6 to get to it, and while yes other classes can use resources to match that, given how the Ozodrin fiddles around with its abilities, I'd say it compares well. Also, given fighters do get access to magic weapons, and get access to base damage that the Ozodrin can't (2d6 great swords and so on), I think it is fair. Ozodrin gives up the excellence of a Fighter being able to focus on strong weapons, in exchange for having a little higher base stuff for cheaper stuff. On the scale of damage vs speed, Monk's are weaker but just vomit out dice, fighters are stronger but slightly less fast, and Ozodrin is the middle ground.

    With that in mind I do think you should keep Two Weapon Fighting being a thing with tentacles and mouth. Mouth is a bit harder to swallow (badumtish) but the flavour of the class feels like, if you're gonna be using mouths in a way where TWF would be employed, it is vital for the experience. On that same note, it just makes sense for tentacles to be TWF capable, though I do get the fear of multiple 2d6s a round; that being said, I don't think it is that overpowering, especially with the lack of magic item enchantment. They get two 2d6 blows, which assuming the fighter has a Great Sword (something they can totally have) that is identical to what they can do every turn without issue.

    Also if I may I'm actually rather curious if you have any rules/thoughts about the fact that technically with tentacles they basically have infinite hands to hold things. Could be a neat zero cost form power to just inform "hey as long as you have these you can pick up basically any number of objects to hold onto"? Unless there is something like that and I missed it.

    As for Consuming Glare; right now it is just an addition to Dissolving Glare. However, it's really not a useful addition! How many times are you going to get over ten damage with 1d8+modifier, really? So make Consuming Glare be a full on side-grade to Dissolving Glare. Have it be an eye beam that IS an attack roll, that does however much damage is reasonable PLUS incurs the Dissolving Glare con save. Then the damage all told gets added together and for every ten damage you get fed.


    Back to normal Zodi avatars for awhile.
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    Default Re: Ozodrin (5E Conversion, PEACH)

    (And here's the GM of that aforementioned game weighing in.)

    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    If I may present my two cents.

    I feel like keeping Deadly Spikes at 2d8 is reasonable. It takes till level 6 to get to it, and while yes other classes can use resources to match that, given how the Ozodrin fiddles around with its abilities, I'd say it compares well. Also, given fighters do get access to magic weapons, and get access to base damage that the Ozodrin can't (2d6 great swords and so on), I think it is fair. Ozodrin gives up the excellence of a Fighter being able to focus on strong weapons, in exchange for having a little higher base stuff for cheaper stuff. On the scale of damage vs speed, Monk's are weaker but just vomit out dice, fighters are stronger but slightly less fast, and Ozodrin is the middle ground.

    With that in mind I do think you should keep Two Weapon Fighting being a thing with tentacles and mouth. Mouth is a bit harder to swallow (badumtish) but the flavour of the class feels like, if you're gonna be using mouths in a way where TWF would be employed, it is vital for the experience. On that same note, it just makes sense for tentacles to be TWF capable, though I do get the fear of multiple 2d6s a round; that being said, I don't think it is that overpowering, especially with the lack of magic item enchantment. They get two 2d6 blows, which assuming the fighter has a Great Sword (something they can totally have) that is identical to what they can do every turn without issue.

    Also if I may I'm actually rather curious if you have any rules/thoughts about the fact that technically with tentacles they basically have infinite hands to hold things. Could be a neat zero cost form power to just inform "hey as long as you have these you can pick up basically any number of objects to hold onto"? Unless there is something like that and I missed it.

    As for Consuming Glare; right now it is just an addition to Dissolving Glare. However, it's really not a useful addition! How many times are you going to get over ten damage with 1d8+modifier, really? So make Consuming Glare be a full on side-grade to Dissolving Glare. Have it be an eye beam that IS an attack roll, that does however much damage is reasonable PLUS incurs the Dissolving Glare con save. Then the damage all told gets added together and for every ten damage you get fed.
    Hm. From continued comparison (TWF Ozodrin getting three attacks, vs Greatsword Fighter with two or TWF Fighter with three smaller weapons but getting to add strength to all three, all at 6th level)... I think I'd say, maybe don't drop TWF from mouths and tentacles entirely (and why from those but not from fins?), but instead say that the damage-amped version of the feature (Deadly Limbs, Dire Consumption, Deadly Fins) is no longer a light weapon (not TWF-able) if it's really an issue? Certainly removing TWF from those three features in general doesn't make sense when the damage without spending FP is the same as a fighter dual-wielding non-magical hand-axes. So then you have the same choice as the Fighter, two swings with a big weapon or three with a smaller one. Technically I guess you could actually TWF two swings of a smaller weapon and MultiAssault a third swing with a big one, but that still only adds up to 4d6, same as if you'd just done two attacks with a 2d6 and no TWF.

    Except fighters can use magic weapons to boost their to-hit; Ozodrin don't get that so easily. And Fighters keep getting more attacks as they level, while Ozodrin get an increasing variety of options but remain restricted by the action economy. And Unarmored Defense starts out compensating for a lack of armor proficiency but isn't magic armor.

    Grasping Limbs implies tentacles without that alteration have some lack of dexterity, but then, Whip Tendrils implies the ability to grapple. So presumably they can grab things but not do much in the way of fine manipulation.

    Consuming Glare also adds 1d8 damage, so it's over ten damage with 2d8+modifier. With a +0 modifier, I get an average damage of just a smidge over 9 on several thousand samples. An Eye-specialist probably has enough Charisma for at least +2 or +3. So it seems pretty likely that a fight or two worth of creepy staring would provide plenty of food for a day.
    Last edited by Qwertystop; 2020-12-22 at 10:19 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by jamieth View Post
    ...though Talla does her best to sound objective and impartial, it doesn't cover stuff like "ask a 9-year-old to tank for the party."
    My Homebrew

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    Default Re: Ozodrin (5E Conversion, PEACH)

    EDIT: Oh, there was a 3rd response. Reading now.

    As it were, I am currently turning Dissolving Glare into an attack roll, thought up some ray fluff I can live with:

    Spoiler
    Show
    1fp – Dissolving Glare
    As an action, your eyes can unleash a ray with the appearance of warped, shimmering air. Make an attack roll (Proficiency Bonus + Charisma modifier) against a creature within 60ft. On a hit, it takes 1d8 + your Charisma modifier Force damage. This is a magical effect.


    Also cleaning up the wording of binding glare and giving it 1d6 psychic damage on a failed save. Need to change Relentless Gaze as well now, which is fine - becoming an attack is a major buff.

    ---------------------------------------

    The TWF issue isn't 2x 2d6 tentacle attacks, it's making three of them (2 normal ones plus TWF). There are ways for other classes to do this, but Ozodrin does it very easily. - Qwerty's solution is great, went with that for the TWF.

    On the damage, I don't think it's unbalanced, it wouldn't have stayed like this for so many years if it was - I did consult various damage benchmark spreadsheets and such - but it is on the strong side and more importantly could sour DMs skimming through the class. Which is an issue homebrew has to deal with.

    What initially prompted this was me trying to figure out which feature to put first in the PDF. First impressions are important, and if not for the unusually high base damage (for a ranged attack no less!) Spike is the most normal-ish feature. Ranged attack matters as well - it compares fine in a group of somewhat optimized archers but will stomp unoptimized ones (and be surpassed by heavily optimized ones). Edit: whoops, typo

    Relatively, anyway. If this was a 3.5 era class you could just note the damage totals are the correct order of magnitude in all cases and call them the same. :P

    --

    As a note, we're talking about an average of 2 points of damage per round for level 6+ Spike/Eye primaries, and maybe.. 4ish points for tentacle/orifice when you factor in miss chance? A really small difference. If feats like sharpshooter are involved it's not going to be noticeable. Particularly since Ozodrin is the worst sharpshooter among the usual archer-types (no +2 to hit).

    ------------------------------------------

    On tentacles: Being able to hold arbitrary numbers of objects in 5e doesn't matter much, since # of attacks isn't effected by limb total and magic items don't have body slots anymore. If the rules text went out of its way to highlight that point people might think there's supposed to be some kind of extra benefit there. I assume Ozodrin can do that, yes, but I've never had that actually come up even among the more optimization-centric types that have had a spin at the class. Ozodrin generally have their hands free anyway and 2 hands worth of non-weapon stuff is usually enough.

    Like, it helps with hand crossbows I guess and allows for holding both ranged and melee weapons simultaneously but Ozodrin don't benefit from shields and don't gain proficiency with any weapons in-class. Even then, it's pretty minor benefit that would generally be rendered irrelevant by common feats (crossbow expert, etc).

    Being able to grapple arbitrary number of creatures.. would take many rounds to pull off and is one of those extremely scary things that is completely fine in practice.


    EDIT EVEN MORE LATER THAN THE OTHERS: I decided to add "Your tentacles can be used to hold and manipulate creatures/objects." to the base trait and change the "more" in Grasping Limbs to "especially", since it was unclear whether tentacles can hold any objects at all which matters given their extended reach. May tweak wording further. Still not emphasizing the ability to hold arbitrarily large numbers of objects but I do see the need to specify. Will probably change the "Whip" in "Whip Tendrils" to something else.

    EDIT.. YOU KNOW: Changed base trait to "Your tentacles can be used to hold and roughly manipulate creatures/objects, but cannot wield weapons and/or shields". I think it had something like that long ago and.. yeah, with the new Whip Tendrils blocking weapon use is probably a good thing to catch wrt multi-classing. Sophisticated Tentacles and Grasping limbs both improve roughly to fine while the latter allows for weapon usage.

    -----------------

    On consuming glare: It already adds 1d8, for a total of 2d8+Cha. That's an average of 9+cha damage. 1d8 + 1d6 + cha would be an average of 8 + cha damage. The sustenance effect is just a small extra that has some use with the Orifice trait.

    --------------
    EDIT: I like the weapon type changing idea! I think I'll do that. The question is if I should just remove the light descriptor, or change it to heavy... hrm... probably just remove light.

    EDIT AGAIN: I do think mass holding things is neat though. It's just that DMs that don't have an issue with it will likely allow it without it being explicitly specified and those that DO have an issue with it.. well it's not fight worth fighting I think.

    EDIT MUCH LATER THAN THE OTHERS: Overhauled the Eye trait, kept the damage the same for now.

    EDIT EVEN LATER: Made the weapon type change. Fixes 6+ without affecting levels 1-5, exactly what I wanted to do there.
    Last edited by Magikeeper; 2020-12-23 at 12:59 AM.

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    Default Re: Ozodrin (5E Conversion, PEACH)

    First up, on the damage:

    > As noted in the many edits of the previous post, went with Qwertystop's great idea for the light -> reg for tentacle/bite.
    > Changed Devouring Gaze to +1d6, it's force damage as it is.
    > I think I'm going to change deadly spikes to:
    Spoiler: Neo Deadly Spikes
    Show
    2fp - Deadly Spikes (Requires Ballistic Spikes or Goring Spikes)
    You can more skillfully combine shaping and wielding, taking advantage of being able to tweak every twitch from thought to strike for maximum lethality. Your ballistic spikes and/or goring spikes deal an additional 1d6 damage.

    Furthermore, when you score a critical hit with a ballistic spike, a goring spike, or an attack with a melee weapon with your spikes on it, you may roll 2d4 additional damage instead of 1d4.

    ^ TLDR: Increased Crit damage +1d4, reduced reg bonus to 1d6.

    ---

    So, there were three remaining features that do the whole "costs more each time you take this" thing. Sizing Flesh in particular has a major typo and didn't take into account that 5E doesn't have a colossal size category, suggesting no one's ever multi-stacked it in the first place. The other two are swift fin, which is probably too strong in combat when you factor in how much dashing fin gets, and Locomotive Limbs which likely has never been stacked more than once if even that (5fp for +20' isn't bad, but not great either).

    My thoughts for how to change them to remove the multi-stacking:
    Spoiler: Neo Swift Fins and Sizing Flesh
    Show
    2fp – Swift Fins
    You can subtly alter your body and fins/wings to better support speedy movement (aerodynamic shapes, releasing jets of air through muscle motions, etc). Your swimming speed increases by 15’ and your walking speed increases by 5'.

    As a bonus action, you can replace your walking speed with your swimming speed until the end of your turn. For example, if your swimming speed was 45’ then you would have a walking speed of 45’ until the end of your turn. Furthermore, while under this effect you gain resistance to falling damage and your movements cause spacial ripples like a fish swimming along the surface of a pond.

    3fp – Sizing Flesh
    Whenever you enter or alter your Inner Nature you may choose to increase or decrease your size. This effect lasts until you enter your Worldly Form or alter your Inner Nature. Anything you are wearing changes size with you, but returns to its previous size if dropped. Held weapons and other held items do not change size with you. This is a magical effect.

    Increase. Your size category increases by one - from Medium to Large, for example. If there isn't enough room for a creature of that size you instead attain the maximum possible size in the space available. You may choose to increase your size category by two instead of one (Medium -> Huge) - if you do, your reach increases by 5’. In either case, attacks made by weapons that are a part of your body deal an additional 1d4 damage.

    Decrease. Your size category decreases by one – from Medium to Small, for example. You may choose to decrease your size category by two instead of one (Medium -> Tiny) - if you do, your reach decreases by 5’. In either case, your melee and ranged attacks deal 1d4 less damage (minimum 0).

    If you make this alteration to your Worldly Form via the Aberrant Metamorphosis class feature, immediately choose to increase or decrease your size. Objects you are wearing do not change size with you, the effect is non-magical, and the effect lasts until you next alter your Worldly Form and cannot otherwise be changed.


    Sizing Flesh was just completely re-written. 3fp is a bit much, but it does include both directions x2. Making the non-worldly version magical fixes clothing issues for all those Ozodrin that aren't just forming clothes via the base flesh trait for some crazy reason. Removed the Enlarged/Reduce connection as the effect description I was previously writing had way too many exceptions.

    As for Swift Fins, it would now be a larger boost at low levels, and has some additional out-of-combat use, but fights for the valuable bonus action slot in combat. In the mid-levels (the most played levels) this would make it much harder to combine with Razor Fins in combat and then once you get wings it's about the same as before but without the possibility of taking it a third time for extra ridiculous speeds (after effectively 2-3x dashing). This change would also make combining it with Locomotive Fins infeasible / not very useful which I think is for the best.

    As for Locomotive Limbs, I think I'll just remove the ability to take it multiple times and leave it at that. It's still a good alteration people will frequently take, and adding anything else to it would likely be too strong for 2fp.

    ------

    I also tweaked Magic-Consuming Flesh again a few days ago as the first re-write would result in a rather complex set of things happening as a reaction which was iffy.

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    Default Re: Ozodrin (5E Conversion, PEACH)

    One thing – you didn't apply the "no TWF if Deadly" thing to Fins. Intentional, or oversight?

    (Also, some of the changes you mention aren't in the main post yet)

    (also, Devouring Gaze isn't a thing – assume you meant Consuming Glare?)
    Last edited by Qwertystop; 2021-01-05 at 11:47 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by jamieth View Post
    ...though Talla does her best to sound objective and impartial, it doesn't cover stuff like "ask a 9-year-old to tank for the party."
    My Homebrew

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    Default Re: Ozodrin (5E Conversion, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Qwertystop View Post
    One thing – you didn't apply the "no TWF if Deadly" thing to Fins. Intentional, or oversight?
    Although it is intentional, since Martial Fins let's you do super TWF anyway, I am considering reducing deadly fins to +1d4, which it was originally. It was changed to 1d6 to better match the DPR of the other traits at the time.

    (I wanted to see if what people had to say before making the changes to.. Swift Fin mostly. I'm not sure how many people have actually used Tier III Flesh alterations before since Flesh is generally taken as a secondary.)

    (Yes, I meant Consuming Gaze)
    Last edited by Magikeeper; 2021-01-06 at 01:57 AM.

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    Default Re: Ozodrin (5E Conversion, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Magikeeper View Post
    Although it is intentional, since Martial Fins let's you do super TWF anyway, I am considering reducing deadly fins to +1d4, which it was originally. It was changed to 1d6 to better match the DPR of the other traits at the time.

    (I wanted to see if what people had to say before making the changes to.. Swift Fin mostly. I'm not sure how many people have actually used Tier III Flesh alterations before since Flesh is generally taken as a secondary.)

    (Yes, I meant Consuming Gaze)
    Well, Kaneis has never yet doubled up on Swift Fins, so it's technically a small buff, but the biggest use for increased speed so far seems to be Razor Fins since big twisty paths to hit more targets take a lot of movement, and the buff doesn't help there. So I think it's probably fine. At most, it cuts down on the number of times when things turn out such that they're spending their entire turn on moving rather than actually contributing.

    (Incidentally, I still don't think the various situational proficiency or half-proficiency bonuses would be broken if they stacked with regular proficiency - our game's doing that anyway and it seems fine so far - but either way it should probably be stated explicitly in the relevant features instead of being left to be explained later in thread as it currently is).
    Quote Originally Posted by jamieth View Post
    ...though Talla does her best to sound objective and impartial, it doesn't cover stuff like "ask a 9-year-old to tank for the party."
    My Homebrew

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    Default Re: Ozodrin (5E Conversion, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Qwertystop View Post
    (Incidentally, I still don't think the various situational proficiency or half-proficiency bonuses would be broken if they stacked with regular proficiency - our game's doing that anyway and it seems fine so far - but either way it should probably be stated explicitly in the relevant features instead of being left to be explained later in thread as it currently is).
    Pg. 173 of the PHB notes:
    Spoiler: PHB on Prof Stacking
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    Your proficiency bonus can’t be added to a single die roll or other number more than once. For example, if two different rules say you can add your proficiency bonus to a Wisdom saving throw, you nevertheless add
    the bonus only once when you make the save.

    That said, this rule seems to be one that doesn't normally come up very often, so I think I'll add something specifying how it works / noting pg 173 in the general trait overview section.

    Edit: Hrm.. half prof actually is a bit unusual as the prof stacking rules don't state how to handle it if the values are different. Maybe I will reword those alterations a bit.

    -----

    The swift fins change is also 2fp instead of 1fp but is still only +5' so it's a nerf to its interaction w/razor fin but otherwise a buff for low-level general movement outside of aquatic campaigns yes.

    ------

    Okay, I changed a bunch of things. In addition to what I talked about above, including Fin DPR changes, I also completely re-did Tugging Tendrils. It's gone from being an at-will incredibly niche 1fp effect, to being a 2fp, 2x per rest ability that's actually pretty strong. I tweaked Immaculate Grace as well, as 2fp was too little for it but it needed a little more oomph to be 3fp.

    While cleaning up the wording of some puppet abilities, I came to the conclusion that Phantom Puppets, while neat, are sort of a mechanical mess. They're illusions that aren't illusions and the main use of them is going to be to spy on the other side of walls more likely than not. While brainstorming better wordings, I thought of what might be a better ability:

    Edit: Fixed Wording
    Edit: Fixed it again and made the change to the main page.

    Spoiler: Rumbling Domain (Puppet IV)
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    3fp - Rumbling Domain (Requires Advanced Puppet)
    You may spend 10 minutes performing no other actions in order to convert one of your Advanced Puppets into a Stage Puppet. A Stage Puppet can be any shape and size that would fit within a 50’x50x50’ cube and has double the carrying capacity of a Gargantuan creature (your STR score x 15 x 8 x 2 [STR x 240lb]). As the name implies, the Stage Puppet is otherwise not as dangerous as it looks - even if it has the form of a mansion or a giant beast it's still only as durable and deadly as an Advanced Puppet. At your DM's discretion the Stage Puppet's massive size may give it advantage on certain ability checks.

    You may unform the Stage Puppet as an action and/or bonus action like any other puppet. Furthermore, you may you may freely add or remove other base trait alterations – such adding tentacles to one of the Stage Puppet’s “walls” or changing the design of the “carpets” via the base Flesh Trait alteration – to your Stage Puppet as you would any other puppet.

    You may only have one Stage Puppet formed at a time, even if you are capable of forming multiple Advanced Puppets at the same time. Your Stage Puppet otherwise has all the abilities and limitations of an Advanced Puppet, including those granted by other alterations (e.g. Empty Doll), and counts against the maximum number of Advanced Puppets you can have formed at the same time. If you unmake this alteration, your Stage Puppet immediately unforms as normal. You cannot use the ability granted by the Essence Shift alteration with your Stage Puppet.

    As referenced above, the lack of mechanical combat bonuses is intentional – your other alterations are needed to make the puppet more deadly than a glorified stage prop. Another thing to keep in mind is that Stage Puppets tend to be much lighter than they look - like a "stone wall" made of cardboard.
    Last edited by Magikeeper; 2021-01-07 at 05:23 PM.

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    Default Re: Ozodrin (5E Conversion, PEACH)

    Alright, I just overhauled a ton of stuff. Mostly Tier I/II/IV Flesh, TI/II Orifice and TI/II Eye. This included some things that had been mostly untouched since the start (and I think it showed). I also dealt with all the half prof stuff... I think. I'll be going through it again to make sure I didn't miss any. The half prof rewordings sparked the flurry of updates as it were. Main class has Perception as a skill option now, since Eye trait no longer needs niche protection for it (and might want to take it now).

    -------------------

    As I go through this with a willingness to bring a hatchet to stuff that's been around forever just because its been around forever, I'm reminded of Manifest Form itself.



    QUESTION: Has anyone ever used their Worldly Guise? I'll be honest here, I've never used it. It's not because I've never been stealthy - even in the campaign where my PC was pretending to be a completely mundane bone-knife throwing warrior they never shifted out of their Inner Nature. Not once. There just isn't any reason to ever do so - you can form/unform all of your basic alterations using an action/bonus action and none of the advanced alterations change what you look like (some change what your basic alterations look like, or give you the option to change size whenever you can change your basic alterations but that's it).

    Like, is Worldly Guise only still a part of this class because having an "Inner Nature" makes wording some of the abilities easier? And I guess the most recent version of Sizing Flesh?
    Last edited by Magikeeper; 2021-01-10 at 11:07 PM.

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    Default Re: Ozodrin (5E Conversion, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Magikeeper View Post
    Alright, I just overhauled a ton of stuff. Mostly Tier I/II/IV Flesh, TI/II Orifice and TI/II Eye. This included some things that had been mostly untouched since the start (and I think it showed). I also dealt with all the half prof stuff... I think. I'll be going through it again to make sure I didn't miss any. The half prof rewordings sparked the flurry of updates as it were. Main class has Perception as a skill option now, since Eye trait no longer needs niche protection for it (and might want to take it now).

    -------------------

    As I go through this with a willingness to bring a hatchet to stuff that's been around forever just because its been around forever, I'm reminded of Manifest Form itself.



    QUESTION: Has anyone ever used their Worldly Guise? I'll be honest here, I've never used it. It's not because I've never been stealthy - even in the campaign where my PC was pretending to be a completely mundane bone-knife throwing warrior they never shifted out of their Inner Nature. Not once. There just isn't any reason to ever do so - you can form/unform all of your basic alterations using an action/bonus action and none of the advanced alterations change what you look like (some change what your basic alterations look like, or give you the option to change size whenever you can change your basic alterations but that's it).

    Like, is Worldly Guise only still a part of this class because having an "Inner Nature" makes wording some of the abilities easier? And I guess the most recent version of Sizing Flesh?
    My campaign hasn't paid especially much attention to it, honestly – in hindsight, the Flesh basic ability to do disguises probably shouldn't have been especially available with fins not visible. Might get some more use now that we've hit level 6 and Kaneis' usual Inner Nature setup has gone from "person, with serrated fins on forearms and calves" (Fin/Flesh/Spike), which is plausibly just a weird merfolk in-setting, to a sort of whirling medusa/squid/jellyfish/ballgown thing due to the unlocking of basic Tentacles and also Razor Fins (the jellyfish bell is "attached clothing" provided by Flesh, being a sheer and floaty capelet, and there's still a person-shape somewhere inside/under all that until 10th level allows removing it). Then again, it might not; that came along with a good bit of introspection, so they might just not care so much anymore about not fitting in.

    I would argue that if you've unformed all of your basic alterations, the advanced ones can't be active; in almost all cases, they explicitly relate to increasing the capability of the basic ones. If you wanted Worldly Guise to matter more, but didn't want to add too much extra cruft to mostly-cosmetic rearrangements of basic features, perhaps make it explicit that if you have an Advanced Feature, your Inner Nature has to include the appropriate Basic Feature for it to apply to?
    Quote Originally Posted by jamieth View Post
    ...though Talla does her best to sound objective and impartial, it doesn't cover stuff like "ask a 9-year-old to tank for the party."
    My Homebrew

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    Default Re: Ozodrin (5E Conversion, PEACH)

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    You are right that the worldly guise's use isn't really incentivized, so maybe it should get the axe. In doing so I hope you keep most aspects of the aberrant metamorphosis trait gained at tenth level that allow alterations to non-trait body parts and physiology. The trait is flavorful and the change to the aberration type instead of humanoid with its knock-on spell interactions make it good enough that you could probably keep the trait as it is aside from cutting the part saying "Furthermore, you may use your Base Alterations and currently chosen Advance Alterations to modify your Worldly Form instead of / in addition to your Inner Nature. This does NOT let you choose any more Advance Alterations than your form points allow. Any Advance Alteration costs/effects based on how many times you've currently made them to your Inner Nature are instead based on how many times you've made them to either of your forms,". If you wanted to keep the worldly guise then perhaps you could incentivize using it by allowing ozodrin in their worldly guise to count as humanoids instead of aberrations for the purpose of spell and ability interaction after level 10. It would be niche, but would have some use in some situations, such as evading detection from spells like Detect Evil and Good. But having a trait from first level that only becomes valuable in rare situations after level 10 may mean even providing that use for the worldly guise might not be worth it. The original 3.5 class, reading it over, seemed to incentivize using the worldly guise by having a debuff applied to enemies that saw the ozodrin switch to their inner natures, "When the ozodrin manifests its true nature, all creatures possessing a line of sight with it that the ozodrin doesn't choose to exclude must make a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 class level + Charisma modifier) or become shaken for one minute or until the end of the encounter, whichever comes last. Creatures that succeed on this saving throw are immune to this effect when used by that particular ozodrin for 24 hours,". Maybe adding that debuff ability to the feature, in a form adapted to the balance of 5e, might make the worldly guise worthwhile.

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