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    Default Farseeker [ToB Base Class]

    The sublime way doesn't always just apply to melee weapons, there are those choice few that master the art of ranged combat, yet still follow the ways of nine.

    Hit Dice: d8
    Starting Gold: 4d4x10 (100 gp).
    Starting Age: As Fighter.
    Class Skills (6 + Int modifier, x4 at first level): Balance, Bluff, Climb, Concentration, Craft, Disguise, Escape Artist, Gather Information, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (Dungeoneering, Geography, History, Local, Nature), Listen, Martial Lore*, Move Silently, Profession, Ride, Search, Sense Motive, Slieght of Hand, Spot, Survival, Swim, Tumble, and Use Rope.

    Farseekers
    {table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|
    Fort Save
    |
    Ref Save
    |
    Will Save
    |Special|
    Known
    |
    Readied
    |
    Stances

    1st|+1|
    +0
    |
    +2
    |
    +0
    |Hunter's method|
    3
    |
    3
    |
    1

    2nd|+2|
    +0
    |
    +3
    |
    +0
    |Hunter's grace|
    4
    |
    3
    |
    1

    3rd|+3|
    +1
    |
    +3
    |
    +1
    ||
    5
    |
    4
    |
    1

    4th|+4|
    +1
    |
    +4
    |
    +1
    |Swiftness +10|
    6
    |
    4
    |
    2

    5th|+5|
    +1
    |
    +4
    |
    +1
    ||
    6
    |
    4
    |
    2

    6th|+6/+1|
    +2
    |
    +5
    |
    +2
    |Soaring Shot|
    7
    |
    5
    |
    2

    7th|+7/+2|
    +2
    |
    +5
    |
    +2
    ||
    8
    |
    5
    |
    2

    8th|+8/+3|
    +2
    |
    +6
    |
    +2
    |Swiftness +20|
    9
    |
    5
    |
    2

    9th|+9/+4|
    +3
    |
    +6
    |
    +3
    ||
    9
    |
    6
    |
    2

    10th|+10/+5|
    +3
    |
    +7
    |
    +3
    |Star Step|
    10
    |
    6
    |
    3

    11th|+11/+6/+1|
    +3
    |
    +7
    |
    +3
    ||
    11
    |
    6
    |
    3

    12th|+12/+7/+2|
    +4
    |
    +8
    |
    +4
    |Swiftness +30|
    12
    |
    7
    |
    3

    13th|+13/+8/+3|
    +4
    |
    +8
    |
    +4
    | Endless stream|
    12
    |
    7
    |
    3

    14th|+14/+9/+4|
    +4
    |
    +9
    |
    +4
    ||
    13
    |
    7
    |
    3

    15th|+15/+10/+5|
    +5
    |
    +9
    |
    +5
    ||
    14
    |
    8
    |
    3

    16th|+16/+11/+6/+1|
    +5
    |
    +10
    |
    +5
    |Swiftness +40|
    15
    |
    8
    |
    4

    17th|+17/+12/+7/+2|
    +5
    |
    +10
    |
    +5
    ||
    15
    |
    8
    |
    4

    18th|+18/+13/+8/+3|
    +6
    |
    +11
    |
    +6
    |Never-Ending Shot|
    16
    |
    9
    |
    4

    19th|+19/+14/+9/+4|
    +6
    |
    +11
    |
    +6
    ||
    17
    |
    9
    |
    4

    20th|+20/+15/+10/+5|
    +6
    |
    +12
    |
    +6
    |Rain of Death, swiftness +50|
    18
    |
    9
    |
    4
    [/table]

    Class Features

    Weapons and Armor Proficiency: You are proficient with all ranged weapons, the dagger, the quarterstaff, and light armor. You are not proficient with any type of shield.

    Maneuvers: You begin your career with knowledge of four martial maneuvers. The disciplines available to you are Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, Shadow Hand, and Tiger Claw.

    Once you know a maneuver, you must ready it before you can use it. A maneuver usable by farseekers is considered an extraordinary ability unless otherwise noted in the description. Your maneuvers are not affected by spell resistance, and you do not provoke attacks of opportunity when you initiate one, unless part of the maneuver is an attack action that would do otherwise.

    You learn additional maneuvers at higher levels, as shown on the table above. You must meet a maneuver's prerequisite to learn it. See Table 3-1, page 39 of Tome of Battle: The Book of Nine Swords, to determine the highest-level maneuvers you can learn.

    Upon reaching 4th level, and every even-numbered farseeker level after that, you can choose to learn a new maneuver in place of one you already know. In effect, you lose the old maneuver in exchange for the new one. You can choose a new maneuver of any level you like, as long as you observe your restriction on the highest-level maneuvers you know; you need not replace the old maneuver with a maneuver of the same level. You can swap only a single maneuver at any given level.

    Maneuvers Readied: You can ready all three maneuvers you know at 1st level, but as you advance in level and learn more maneuvers, you must choose which maneuvers to ready. You ready your maneuvers by exercising for 5 minutes. The maneuvers you choose remain readied until you decide to exercise again and change them. You need not sleep or rest for any long period of time to ready your maneuvers; any time you spend 5 minutes in practice, you can change your readied maneuvers.
    You begin an encounter with all your maneuvers unexpended, regardless of how many times you might have already used them since you chose them. When you initiate a maneuver, you expend it for the current encounter, so each of your readied maneuvers can be used once per encounter (until you recover them, as described below).

    Once per round, if you sucessfully hit with a ranged attack, you regain a single expended maneuver of your choice, so long as that maneuver wasn't expended during the round you made the attack.

    Stances Known: You begin play with knowledge of one 1st-level stance from any discipline open to farseekers. At 4th, 10th, and 16th level, you can choose additional stances. Unlike maneuvers, stances are not expeded, and you do not have to ready them., All the stances you know are available to you at all times, and you can change the stance you are currently using as a swift action. A stance is an extraordinary ability unless otherwise staded in the stance desctription.

    Unlike maneuvers, you cannot learn a new stance at higher levels in place of one you already know.

    Hunter's Method (Ex): You have learned to fight with a projectile weapon of your choice with incredible skill. At first level, you choose a weapon with a range increment. If any maneuver you would use normally requires a melee attack, you may instead make a ranged attack with that weapon in its place. All other situations for the strike are resolved normally.
    Additionally, the chosen weapon is treated as an associated weapon for all disciplines.

    Hunter's Grace (Ex): At 2nd level, so long as you are not wearing medium or heavy armor, and not carrying a medium or heavy load, you gain a +1 dodge bonus to your armor class. This bonus increases by an additional +1 at 6th level, and every four levels afterward.

    Swiftness (Ex): At 4th level, so long as you are not wearing medium or heavy armor, and not carrying a medium or heavy load, your base speed (for all forms of movement) is increased by 10. This boost increases by an additional 10 at 8th level, and every four levels after that.

    Soaring Shot (Ex): At 6th level, you gain a -1 penalty for each full range increment you fire your shot by, rather then -2.

    Star Step (Ex): At 10th level, you may spend a swift action to move up to your base land speed. This does not allow you to do anything else that normally requires a move action.

    Endless Stream (Su) At 13th level, you gain the ability to summon amunition or cause your favored weapon to split into copies of itself in mid-air. As a free action, if your favored weapon uses a type of amunition, you are treated as having an infinite supply of it without having to carry any.
    If your favored weapon is a thrown weapon, as a full attack action, you may thow the weapon and cause copies to split off from it in mid-air. For each attack past the first one that you can make per round, a single copy is created. Resolve all the attacks seperately.
    In addition, if your favored weapon is a thrown weapon, it returns to your grasp at the end of each of your turns.
    Anything created by this ability vanishes at the end of your turn

    Never-Ending Shot At 18th level, you do not suffer any penalties for shooting past a full range increment. This does not increase the maximum range of your weapon, and only allows you to shoot at your maximum range with no penalty.

    Rain of Death (Ex): At 20th level, you learn to bring death upon the heads of your enemies. Once per day, as a swift action, you may use any maneuvers with an initiation time of a standard action as a substitute for an attack instead (such as trip, disarm, or grapple). This effect lasts one round.
    Last edited by Crystall_Myr; 2007-05-02 at 08:33 PM.
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  2. - Top - End - #2
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: Farseeker [ToB Base Class]

    this is amazing...there needs to be more class's like this
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    Default Re: Farseeker [ToB Base Class]

    I like it; there arevery few addequate classes for archery, and this nicely fills that gap.

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    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: Farseeker [ToB Base Class]

    i could see this taking the place for the ranger in my games....honestly
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serpentine View Post
    Also I'm pretty sure you're GLaDoS now.

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    Default Re: Farseeker [ToB Base Class]

    Thank you, I always thought that ToB should have included archery. In fact, I made this class orignally to allow an NPC idea for a game I DM actually work.

    Though I am kinda worried about rain of death, though, imagine using rapid shot to fire 5 Strikes of Perfect Clarity.
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    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: Farseeker [ToB Base Class]

    ya...perhaps you should make your own disciplines...if you want help i would be more then happy to sign on, im working on some at the moment for my anime project...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serpentine View Post
    Also I'm pretty sure you're GLaDoS now.

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    Default Re: Farseeker [ToB Base Class]

    For the custom disciplines, I do have some ideas, yes... though I want to keep Diamond Mind, Shadow Hand, and Tiger claw at the least. If I'm going to make custom disciplines, though, I would probably want to make a new thread or rename this one.

    I saw your puppet master discipline, it looked very... wierd.
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    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: Farseeker [ToB Base Class]

    it supposed to be after all its a an anime maneuver set, but i will take that as a complement, so thank you!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serpentine View Post
    Also I'm pretty sure you're GLaDoS now.

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    Default Re: Farseeker [ToB Base Class]

    Either of the two falling star disciplines (ones on the wizards board, the other was posted by Fax on this one) would compliment this class, as they are archery focused disciplines.

    And I agree that there are no real range-focused classes. Totally awesome.

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    Default Re: Farseeker [ToB Base Class]

    Added Star Step, which was there originally, but wasn't described.

    EDIT: Added skills/starting age/starting gold/HD.
    Last edited by Crystall_Myr; 2007-04-29 at 05:17 PM.
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    Default Re: Farseeker [ToB Base Class]

    I think it has too much discipline access. As it is, it has all three Swordsage exclusives, and the Warblade exclusive.

    Tiger Claw seems droppable from it, since most of it is TWF and the rest involves jumping over your opponent. Likewise, I can't see you throwing anyone with a bow. Setting Sun has got to go.

    Hunter's Grace and Swiftness seem overpowered, too. Swiftness puts this thing in the Monk's league, for speed, and I don't think this class needs that. Likewise, Hunter's Grace gives better than monk AC (especially if you dip anything to get Wis to AC).

    Might want to clarify that Endless Stream creates mundane ammunition.

    I wouldn't worry about Rain of Death too much, though; once you initiate one of your maneuvers, it's expended; your second attack can then recover it, but you have one attack without it. Then, of course, you can't recover anything else for the rest of the round.

    Then again, anything that can allow you to initiate two Strikes of Perfect Clarity in one round is overpowered. Do what the Warblade did, and disallow maneuver recovery in any round in which you initiate a maneuver.
    Last projects, from years back: Lesser Disciplines (Tome of Battle). Also, Never Behind the Curve (multiclassing).

    Some of my current work is under the name IGTN on D&D Wiki

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    Default Re: Farseeker [ToB Base Class]

    I actually think tiger claw fits pretty well for plenty of character, haven't you seen those anime shows or video games where people fire arrows in mid-jump? And anyways, you can either ignore the two-weapon fighting thing, or actually use it. How about duel-wielding throwing daggers?

    Setting sun could be removed, though, I agree. I'll do that. (Though really, you aren't using your weapon with the throws, unless it's a spiked chain or something, )

    I never saw the monk speed boost as being extremly powerful in the first place, though I may just be crazy.

    The AC bonus is probably a little extreme, being at +7 at level 20. I could reduce it to every four levels instead, making it +5 at level 20, or every five levels, with +4 at level 20.

    I think I'll add a restriction that you can't recover a maneuver that you used during that round instead, to prevent that sort of thing.
    Last edited by Crystall_Myr; 2007-04-29 at 09:02 PM.
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    Default Re: Farseeker [ToB Base Class]

    The monk speed boost is extremely useful... if the other charactars can catch up. My friend made a perfectly legit charactar that can move 2000 feetin a round... before level 15. You can get up to the enemy really fast, but other then that, not really useful.

    Man, I just contradicted myself. Again. i really must think my argument through first.
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    Default Re: Farseeker [ToB Base Class]

    i would call that very useful actually...."Hey a storm is comming and your in the middle of a field....guess what that makes you?" Remember a round is a 6 seconds, and when you move 120 feet a round without running...well the above is no longer a real issue since you can get to a safe area quickly
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serpentine View Post
    Also I'm pretty sure you're GLaDoS now.

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    Default Re: Farseeker [ToB Base Class]

    Quote Originally Posted by Innis Cabal View Post
    "Hey a storm is comming and your in the middle of a field....guess what that makes you?"
    "Gone" VROOM!!
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    Default Re: Farseeker [ToB Base Class]

    Tiger claw just doesn't fit, unless you're dual-wielding throwing daggers. Setting sun doesn't quite fit, either.

    But on the whole, great job. Very well done.
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    Default Re: Farseeker [ToB Base Class]

    I was thinking of something like this except as a prestige class (like soulblade -> soulbow).

    Looks good overall, a few weird things.
    Desert Wind, Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, Setting Sun, Shadow Hand, and Tiger Claw. - Far too many disciples I'd say. You have the same Amount as a swordsage, without the penalties to the swordsage. I'd recommend removing Iron Heart, Setting Sun and Tiger Claw, and then adding a custom (Such as Fax's Falling Star Discipline)
    Recovery - Change to: You may recover a single maneuver with a swift action, once/round. Immediately afterwards you must make a single ranged attack without initiating a maneuver. If you cannot make a ranged attack, you must waste the action meditating.
    Armor restriction for Hunter's Grace - it seems to be something that requires very little armor.
    Swiftness - a bit extreme of a jump I'd say, and unnecessary. Maybe require you to initiate a Maneuvers on the same turn?
    Rain of Death - Does nothing. An attack action IS a standard action.

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    Default Re: Farseeker [ToB Base Class]

    Quote Originally Posted by Gralamin View Post
    Rain of Death - Does nothing. An attack action IS a standard action.
    Maybe you meant to say an attack action= a move action?
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    Default Re: Farseeker [ToB Base Class]

    Hunter's Grace should have an armor restriction, right. I forgot about that.

    For recovery, first off, I didn't want to copy Warblades, second off, I like the ability to use a manuever every round.

    Actually, what I mean by an attack action is the same type of action it takes to grapple, trip, disarm, etc..

    I am most definately not removing Iron Heart, as so many maneuvers fit my conception for this class, (Lightning Throw? Disarming Strike? These fit this perfectly to me). Setting Sun will be taken out, yes, and Tiger Claw is staying because, despite what so many think, it isn't entirely focused on two-weapon fighting and jumping. Hamstring Attack, Prey on the Weak, Wolf Pack Tactics, Rabid Boar/Wolf Strike, and such are still there. And anyways, many from this class are ranger-type, and Tiger Claw fits that type.

    I don't really want Fax's Falling Star discipline for two reasons. 1: I'm not overly fond of it, to tell you the truth. 2: I'm making my own discipline with the same name here, and I don't want more then 10 disciplines at any one time.

    All in all, thank you for this constructive critism, as I'm planning on making a Nine Swords champain in the near future, and this will be in it, and I don't want an overpowered class ruining everything.

    EDIT: Now that I think on it, though, if I was going to remove another discipline beside setting sun, it would be Desert Wind, for two reasons. 1: All those overly supernatural things don't fit this class very well, and 2: I don't like that discipline anyways .
    Last edited by Crystall_Myr; 2007-04-29 at 10:19 PM.
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    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: Farseeker [ToB Base Class]

    sign me up for that game Crystall...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serpentine View Post
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    Default Re: Farseeker [ToB Base Class]

    Actually, what I mean by an attack action is the same type of action it takes to grapple, trip, disarm, etc..
    According to: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/act...standardAction
    Attacking is a standard action.

    Trip, Disarm, and Grapple are the only three actions which can take the place of an attack. This is not an action.
    These attack forms substitute for a melee attack, not an action. As melee attacks, they can be used once in an attack or charge action, one or more times in a full attack action, or even as an attack of opportunity.
    I would then Rephrase it as "Once per day, as a swift action, you may use any maneuvers with an initiating time of a standard action, as a substitute for an attack instead (such as trip can be substituted). This effect lasts one round."

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    Default Re: Farseeker [ToB Base Class]

    Yes, that would work, thank you.
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    Default Re: Farseeker [ToB Base Class]

    i love this and have to show this to my parties archer

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    Default Re: Farseeker [ToB Base Class]

    Just saw this from your pbp post. I love the concept, and think it's beautifully done... but it seems overpowered. Full BAB, 18 known maneuvers from some of the best disciplines, recovering maneuvers with successful attacks, and a slew of superb abilities? Wow.

    My suggestion would be to either drop the BAB progression to 3/4, or to lower the number of maneuvers learned to 12 or 13. A simple fix, but either would bring it to the level of the rest of the ToB classes.

    Also, the Rain of Death ability could be better clarified. It's interesting, but a tad vague.

    Again, I love the idea and think you did a great job of making this!
    Last edited by ClericofPhwarrr; 2007-05-03 at 07:15 AM.
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    Default Re: Farseeker [ToB Base Class]

    I donīt like this too much and think it grossly overpowered - but then thatīs my beef with all ToB/Books of hideous cheating and Pseudo-freeform.

    Itīs time i statted out the MoPAL so all the munchkins and dissatisfied ones find the class to end all classes.......no seriously, this is going the Way of Magic:the Gathering, simply increasing power till "modern" cards supercede even the worst balancing flaws of the early editions.
    Apart from that, all the stance and discipline Mumbo-Jumbo is far to complicated and specific for a Fighter-type.
    Iīm not overly simplistic, but no game should force you to spend more time preparing than actually playing, and this is where itīs headed with such classes.
    Also, thanks to Wayril for the nice Avatar!

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    Default Re: Farseeker [ToB Base Class]

    Quote Originally Posted by Kioran View Post
    I donīt like this too much and think it grossly overpowered - but then thatīs my beef with all ToB/Books of hideous cheating and Pseudo-freeform.
    Surely you jest? Tome of Battle offers characters nothing that can compete with the dozens of battle-ending things spellcasters are capable of doing. It simply makes melee characters slightly less easy to disable and a little more versatile, as well as more effective at higher levels (compared to standard warrior classes, which encounter many problems). It does not raise the overall power level of the game--it simply offers viable alternative to some fairly poor classes (that is, the Fighter and its kindred).

    What, in particular, is "overpowered" about either Tome of Battle or this class? Overpowered compared to what?

    Apart from that, all the stance and discipline Mumbo-Jumbo is far to complicated and specific for a Fighter-type.
    Iīm not overly simplistic, but no game should force you to spend more time preparing than actually playing, and this is where itīs headed with such classes.
    You do realize, of course, that wizards require far more preparation time, as do any other prepared spellcasters?
    Tome of Battle characters are more akin to sorcerers--you simply choose your maneuvers once, and then use them thereafter. There is very little preparation involved.

    In conclusion, your problems with this class (and its published kindred) appear to be unreasonable.
    Last edited by Fourth Tempter; 2007-05-03 at 10:34 AM.

  27. - Top - End - #27
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    Default Re: Farseeker [ToB Base Class]

    Quote Originally Posted by Fourth Tempter View Post
    Surely you jest? Tome of Battle offers characters nothing that can compete with the dozens of battle-ending things spellcasters are capable of doing. It simply makes melee characters slightly less easy to disable and a little more versatile, as well as more effective at higher levels (compared to standard warrior classes, which encounter many problems). It does not raise the overall power level of the game--it simply offers viable alternative to some fairly poor classes (that is, the Fighter and its kindred).

    What, in particular, is "overpowered" about either Tome of Battle or this class? Overpowered compared to what?


    You do realize, of course, that wizards require far more preparation time, as do any other prepared spellcasters?
    Tome of Battle characters are more akin to sorcerers--you simply choose your maneuvers once, and then use them thereafter. There is very little preparation involved.

    In conclusion, your problems with this class (and its published kindred) appear to be unreasonable.
    Overpowered if compared with anything that is not a caster, even more powerful than some variants thereof (the Blaster comes to mind). So yes, it is not overpowered compared to the more cheesy ones or the balancing flaws (who woul have thought Intelligence Damage drops a lot of Animals or Magical beasts? Dooooh!!!!).
    However, two wrongs donīt make a right, and offsetting flaws in the Balancing which made casters even more overpowered (even another specialization option, for example city druids, is more power since you do not need to, but can use it, and it may open the possibility of serious exploits, for which automatic hits on touch spells in swarm-form come to mind......) with overpowering other things donīt amend your faults, they compound them.
    Escalating the level of power leads to thing like the mechanical Angel(A MtG-Card that explicitly stated you cannot lose the game as long as it is in play, while your opponent cannot win).

    Seriously, I invented the MoPAL(Master of purple anal lightning) as a joke during a session, something like a pun on overpowered classes. He has Con as his caster Stat and can shout lightning from his posterior as a free action once per round, with full BAB and full spell progression. But since there have been more and more Fighter/Caster combinations or Fighters with pseudo-magical abilities, with an escalating power lvl, the MoPAL or something like it is bound to appear with a WoTC-sticker on his forehead in a few years - you know, because some spells can insta-win many fights means that thereīs a justification to ad other methods for breaking the game. Yeehah.

    There is something called the slippery slope, and ToB is several inches of it.....
    Also, thanks to Wayril for the nice Avatar!

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  28. - Top - End - #28

    Default Re: Farseeker [ToB Base Class]

    I beg your pardon? You have yet to explain how the Tome of Battle is overpowered. I also disagree that it is balanced against spellcasters. Consider classes such as the Psychic Warrior (a partial manifester, not a true one like the psion). Is a Warblade better than a Psychic Warrior? It depends on how you build each. They are quite competitive. Consider the Rogue, which is as good at its niche as the Tome of Battle classes are at theirs. People have, as it happens crunched the numbers, and Barbarians can and do outdamage Warblades. Even a Fighter 20 can give a Tome of Battle character a run for their money in melee combat; the Fighter simply has an exorbitant amount of weaknesses due to poor design that make them less effective in an actual game.

    Tome of Battle has made melee characters more versatile and less easy to disable. Some melee characters (like the Psychic Warrior) already had this. I am uncertain as to why you seem to think that this is a bad thing.

    What, exactly, should classes be balanced against, in your opinion? The Fighter 20? Why?

    Most of the classes in the game cast spells. Not all spellcasters are "broken": the Favored Soul is weaker than a cleric, the Spirit Shaman is weaker than a druid, and they're quite reasonable. Barring a few problematic powers, Psions are reasonably well-balanced as well. The Shugenja is on the weak side. The Wilder is, also. The Warmage? Very. Warlocks? Quite terrible, really.
    There is no error in balancing new classes against such spellcasters; it would be inappropriate to compare them to the Druid or Wizard, but there are reasonably powered spellcasters in the game. Even the Druid becomes sane with the PHB II's Shapechange variant.
    Also, consider the fact that even if you set "broken" spells aside, spellcasters such as clerics, druids, and wizards still contribute significantly more to a party in combat than simple warriors. Is Slow broken? Is Confusion? Is Baleful Polymorph? Is Wall of Stone? No. They are not Ray of Stupidity or Polymorph or Celerity or other such spells. Why is it unreasonable to allow melee characters to contribute significantly when alongside characters using such spells?

    So, please to actually justify yourself this time: how is Tome of Battle overpowered or even game-breaking (you seem to be going so far as to say that)? What unbalancing things does it allow characters to do? What should new classes be balanced against, and why? I am unsure, in the common parlance of the internet, that you have thought your cunning plan all the way through.

    Fighter/spellcaster combinations are fine. The Duskblade, for example, simply uses his spells for melee effectiveness--much like the Barbarian uses his Rage. Eldritch Knight, Jade Phoenix Mage... these are prestige classes involving spellcasting, and they weaken a primary spellcaster, because they lead him into melee combat rather than into casting powerful spells. Nevertheless, the warrior-mage is a highly entertaining character to play.

    You appear to have retracted your claim that Tome of Battle characters require "too much preparation"; excellent.
    Last edited by Fourth Tempter; 2007-05-03 at 01:54 PM.

  29. - Top - End - #29
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    Default Re: Farseeker [ToB Base Class]

    Quote Originally Posted by Fourth Tempter View Post
    I beg your pardon? You have yet to explain how the Tome of Battle is overpowered. I also disagree that it is balanced against spellcasters. Consider classes such as the Psychic Warrior (a partial manifester, not a true one like the psion). Is a Warblade better than a Psychic Warrior? It depends on how you build each. They are quite competitive. Consider the Rogue, which is as good at its niche as the Tome of Battle classes are at theirs. People have, as it happens crunched the numbers, and Barbarians can and do outdamage Warblades. Even a Fighter 20 can give a Tome of Battle character a run for their money in melee combat; the Fighter simply has an exorbitant amount of weaknesses due to poor design that make them less effective in an actual game.

    Tome of Battle has made melee characters more versatile and less easy to disable. Some melee characters (like the Psychic Warrior) already had this. I am uncertain as to why you seem to think that this is a bad thing.

    What, exactly, should classes be balanced against, in your opinion? The Fighter 20? Why?

    Most of the classes in the game cast spells. Not all spellcasters are "broken": the Favored Soul is weaker than a cleric, the Spirit Shaman is weaker than a druid, and they're quite reasonable. Barring a few problematic powers, Psions are reasonably well-balanced as well. The Shugenja is on the weak side. The Wilder is, also. The Warmage? Very. Warlocks? Quite terrible, really.
    There is no error in balancing new classes against such spellcasters; it would be inappropriate to compare them to the Druid or Wizard, but there are reasonably powered spellcasters in the game. Even the Druid becomes sane with the PHB II's Shapechange variant.

    So, please to actually justify yourself this time: how is Tome of Battle overpowered or even game-breaking (you seem to be going so far as to say that)? What unbalancing things does it allow characters to do? What should new classes be balanced against, and why? I am unsure, in the common parlance of the internet, that you have thought your cunning plan all the way through.

    Fighter/spellcaster combinations are fine. The Duskblade, for example, simply uses his spells for melee effectiveness--much like the Barbarian uses his Rage. Eldritch Knight, Jade Phoenix Mage... these are prestige classes involving spellcasting, and they weaken a primary spellcaster, because they lead him into melee combat rather than into casting powerful spells. Nevertheless, the warrior-mage is a highly entertaining character to play.

    You appear to have retracted your claim that Tome of Battle characters require "too much preparation"; excellent.
    Too much preparation is one thing - it is not quite everything on the matter.

    The Balancing side of this is that with every splatbook, the power increases, if simply through the expansion of options. ANY Character, even the Fighter, is more powerful than the first 3.5 Characters of his type.
    There are lot of buils which combine several similiar effects boosting one facet of your Character to twink out that one aspect. This helps even the weakest of classes

    So Yes, a fully twinked out Fighter can probably outdamage a fully twinked out Warblade. He can do even more damage than that if he throws in some FB for Supreme Power Attack. But so can the Warblade, and almost any ToB class is
    a) more versatile (Warblade, Swordsage) than the orignal
    b) some have more non-combat ability/Skills

    an finally many have spell-like effects. In short, even though theyīre weaker in straight out Fights-of-the-classes, they are a much better basis for multiclassing/evolving your character, with a Fighter mostly being reduced to a dip of maximally 4 lvls to acquire Feats.

    The ToB classes are more powerful than the classic martial classes (Crusader > Paladin, Warblade > Fighter, Sowrdsage > Monk) in any open Scenario which allows Multi-classing and Splatbook use. They can be twinked to similiar power in Melee with the right Classes/PrCs and STILL retain their superior saves(okay, nothing beats the Monk, but apart from that) or versatility.

    But yeah, you said comparison to these classes isnīt the issue - itīs balancing against the weaker casters and the Rogues.
    But seriously, the Rogue isnīt that powerful once you fight enemies which are immune to criticals or even flanking - every bit helps. Apart from that, they are rather weak. They depend on one thing which defines almost all their usefulness in fights. And that they can out-skillmonkey every other class is correct and their due - but that advantage is not that large and depends massively on the DM (fighting Prowess doesnīt).
    And anyway, the Rougeīs abilities are largely replacable (an Assasin or Ninja is even more powerful in the sneaky way, though less skilled in non-combat).
    The Rouge is, in other words, a semi-obsolete class for skillmonkey-use only, which makes itīs usefulness heavily dependent on playing-style. ToB-classes donīt share that weakness, so thatīs another win for them....

    the casters.....oh my, the casters. Of course nothing beats Wizards or Codzilla, but we already agreed on that.

    So whatīs with the other casters? Iīd agree with you that the ToB is set for their powerlevel, being equivalent to Favored Souls or Duskblades or the like.

    But frankly - the Duskblade is an Abomination and possibly the worst thing in the PHBII. Itīs, in itīs essence, almost a Fighter, with full BAB, better saves, and even an, albeit weakened, useful spell progression.
    The only thing it loses are some Feats and 1HP/lvl. F***** A.
    So these classes can not only fill multiple roles, they are also nice adittions to multi-class Characters with only small drawbacks against classical Melee classes like Barb, Fighter or Paladins.

    The fact remains that casting is to powerful, and that making almost all Characters casters doesnīt alleviate the problem. It may restore some semblance of balance, but that Balance includes, as a kind of rule, that any non-magical thing is absolutely obsolete and useless, and that eliminates a large percentage of Monsters or NPC-Classes.
    In Effect, the only thing that can compete are Characters using the additional options, things that were alway overpowered(Dragons and such) or Monsters with massively sculpted PC-Class-levels.

    So yes, I pit the ToB against Fighters - the Fighter represents the original D&D combat system, and replacing the "pure" combat aspects with something pseudomagical is admitting that the old system is broken and changing the entire direction of the game instead of curing the underlying problems.
    The Fighter represents a large part of the game Design (Monsters, NPCs) which function along similiar principles. abolishing the fighters delivers the final blow to these things.

    And that is overpowering the PCs against the Setting, the reason why I particularly dislike the ToB


    But then, itīs probably only a stopgap while they work on 4th Ed.
    Also, thanks to Wayril for the nice Avatar!

    Mourning Ashigaru of the - Fanclub

  30. - Top - End - #30

    Default Re: Farseeker [ToB Base Class]

    Quote Originally Posted by Kioran View Post
    Too much preparation is one thing - it is not quite everything on the matter.

    The Balancing side of this is that with every splatbook, the power increases, if simply through the expansion of options. ANY Character, even the Fighter, is more powerful than the first 3.5 Characters of his type.
    There are lot of buils which combine several similiar effects boosting one facet of your Character to twink out that one aspect. This helps even the weakest of classes
    That much is true, yes.

    So Yes, a fully twinked out Fighter can probably outdamage a fully twinked out Warblade. He can do even more damage than that if he throws in some FB for Supreme Power Attack. But so can the Warblade, and almost any ToB class is
    a) more versatile (Warblade, Swordsage) than the orignal
    b) some have more non-combat ability/Skills
    The Warblade gives up damage for survivability and versatility. He also has some non-combat utility.
    So, what on earth makes this a bad thing? One of the major problems with fighters is that they have no survivability, no versatility, and no non-combat utility. This is what made the class not simply "weak" but really poorly designed to boot.

    an finally many have spell-like effects. In short, even though theyīre weaker in straight out Fights-of-the-classes, they are a much better basis for multiclassing/evolving your character, with a Fighter mostly being reduced to a dip of maximally 4 lvls to acquire Feats.
    Even before any splatbooks, Fighter 20 was simply a weak character build. It is now more so than it was, because there are more useful feats. A "core-only" character with, say, 15 to 20 fighter levels has exactly two options: be a highly optimized archer who's gone to enormous lengths to cover his Will save, or be unable to contribute to any significant degree in combat.

    The ToB classes are more powerful than the classic martial classes (Crusader > Paladin, Warblade > Fighter, Sowrdsage > Monk) in any open Scenario which allows Multi-classing and Splatbook use. They can be twinked to similiar power in Melee with the right Classes/PrCs and STILL retain their superior saves(okay, nothing beats the Monk, but apart from that) or versatility.
    Indeed, the Tome of Battle classes are superior in overall melee combat. I do not see how multiclassing is relevant, here--the Tome of Battle classes are viable taken straight through to 20th level (as opposed to, say, the Fighter). This is a good thing--classes should be viable all the way through. Otherwise, why make 20 levels of a class?
    Warblades are better compared to Barbarians than to Fighters, as a matter of fact, and come out fairly even (although they win out in the high levels). Both have a d12 hit die, 4 skill points, and damage increasers. The barbarian wins out on damage, the Warblade on versatility and survivability (Iron Heart Surge).

    But yeah, you said comparison to these classes isnīt the issue - itīs balancing against the weaker casters and the Rogues.
    But seriously, the Rogue isnīt that powerful once you fight enemies which are immune to criticals or even flanking - every bit helps. Apart from that, they are rather weak. They depend on one thing which defines almost all their usefulness in fights. And that they can out-skillmonkey every other class is correct and their due - but that advantage is not that large and depends massively on the DM (fighting Prowess doesnīt).
    Skills do not depend very massively on the DM. They have specified effects.
    Many, many enemies are vulnerable to sneak attack. By the time that a significant number are not, the rogue has enough Use Magical Device ranks to rely on that skill to compensate. The rogue's combat prowess is secondary to his role as trap-finder, face, scout, and so on.

    And anyway, the Rougeīs abilities are largely replacable (an Assasin or Ninja is even more powerful in the sneaky way, though less skilled in non-combat).
    The Rouge is, in other words, a semi-obsolete class for skillmonkey-use only, which makes itīs usefulness heavily dependent on playing-style. ToB-classes donīt share that weakness, so thatīs another win for them....
    You are quite mistaken, here--the rogue is not obsolete. It is the best "skillmonkey" in the game, without being "broken". The rogue is, essentially, to its party role, skillmonkey, what the Tome of Battle classes are to their party roles. That is why I drew the comparison.

    So whatīs with the other casters? Iīd agree with you that the ToB is set for their powerlevel, being equivalent to Favored Souls or Duskblades or the like.
    Psychic Warrior is likely the best analogue.

    But frankly - the Duskblade is an Abomination and possibly the worst thing in the PHBII. Itīs, in itīs essence, almost a Fighter, with full BAB, better saves, and even an, albeit weakened, useful spell progression.
    The only thing it loses are some Feats and 1HP/lvl. F***** A.
    Are you certain you're serious? "Some feats"? It loses quite a lot of feats. For example, the Weapon Supremacy chain in the PHB II. Or Power Attack, Shock Trooper, Karmic Strike, Elusive Target, Aberration Reach, Improved Trip, Stand Still, and the like.

    So these classes can not only fill multiple roles, they are also nice adittions to multi-class Characters with only small drawbacks against classical Melee classes like Barb, Fighter or Paladins.
    No, these classes can not fill multiple roles. The Tome of Battle classes are warriors. They can do some things outside of combat--that's vital. Every class can do something in combat; why should some classes (by which I mean the Fighter, really) be entirely unable to contribute anything outside of it? Non-combat scenarios are generally a large part of the game, and one the Fighter simple can not mechanically contribute to.

    [quote]The fact remains that casting is to powerful, and that making almost all Characters casters doesnīt alleviate the problem. It may restore some semblance of balance, but that Balance includes, as a kind of rule, that any non-magical thing is absolutely obsolete and useless, and that eliminates a large percentage of Monsters or NPC-Classes.
    In Effect, the only thing that can compete are Characters using the additional options, things that were alway overpowered(Dragons and such) or Monsters with massively sculpted PC-Class-levels.

    So yes, I pit the ToB against Fighters - the Fighter represents the original D&D combat system, and replacing the "pure" combat aspects with something pseudomagical is admitting that the old system is broken and changing the entire direction of the game instead of curing the underlying problems.
    The Fighter represents a large part of the game Design (Monsters, NPCs) which function along similiar principles. abolishing the fighters delivers the final blow to these things.
    You are quite drastically mistaken, here. Monsters have never been balanced against the fighter. The Fighter has always been weak, especially "core-only". Other simple melee classes have always had their problems, but the Barbarian and Paladin were more capable of dealing with these than the Fighter.

    The fighter represents terrible, outdated game design. It is (besides the Samurai) the worst-designed class in the game, if not the weakest.
    The fighter gets nothing but feats. Core-only, there are simply not enough good feats--and outside of it, the best feats can also be taken by other characters. Other than the Weapon Focus line (which is highly mediocre), a Fighter has nothing another class can not also pick up. Besides that, due to feat prerequisites, a Fighter can select the very best feats out there by level 8 or 10--the feat he gains at level 20 will have to be weaker than the ones he took at 10, simply because he's already taken all the most powerful ones!
    Not only that, but the fighter's feats do little to shore up his terrible weaknesses: a lack of mobility, a vulnerability to myriad spells and monstrous special abilities, and being outmatched in melee combat by monsters, who are designed to fight an entire party. Not only that, but outside of combat, the fighter simply cools his heals, unable to contribute meaningfully in any way.

    Balancing combat classes against the fighter will mean that they will have to be no better in overall combat, and have no out-of-combat utility. This would be very, very bad.
    Far, far better to balance them against more reasonable classes like the Rogue, the Psychic Warrior, the Favored Soul, the Spirit Shaman, the Binder, the Duskblade, the Beguiler, the Knight, and so on. Tome of Battle does just that.

    And that is overpowering the PCs against the Setting, the reason why I particularly dislike the ToB

    But then, itīs probably only a stopgap while they work on 4th Ed.
    Nothing you have said describes how Tome of Battle characters are overpowered compared to the setting. It only says that they are better than Fighters--which, yes, they are. They are meant to be. The fighter is terribly designed, and very weak as a class, and always has been. If we are comparing classes to the fighter, almost all the PHB classes win out. Simply compare a core barbarian or paladin to a fighter.

    Powerful monsters fly, teleport, and spellcast (or utilize mighty spell-like abilities). No, classes expected to reasonably fight such monsters ought under no circumstances be balanced against the Fighter class.

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