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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Fighter Martial Archetype: Brute

    Brute

    "So i snuck up behind him, and I HIT HIM WITH A ROCK!"

    *silent stares*

    "...i mean, it was a big rock..."
    - Killer Croc, Batman: TAS

    The battlefield attracts fighters of all types and creeds. Inevitably, each fighter will do his damnedst to prove to the others that his way is the "right" way of fighting: the champion sculpts his body into a figure made of marble, the battlemaster uses tricks and tactics to control the flow of combat, and the eldritch knights straight-up cheat by bringing magic into the whole mess. Kensai, Duelists, Weaponsmasters of all types, they all think they know how to win.

    The real answer is much, much more simple: Pick up the biggest, heaviest thing you can find, and squash the rest of them with it.

    That's the Brute Way.


    Heavy Metal
    Starting at 3rd level, the Combat Brute learns how to make the most out of the biggest, heaviest weapons. When weilding a weapon with the Heavy trait, he deals an additional 1d4 damage per strike. This increases to 1d6 at 10th level and 1d8 at 18th level.

    Beast of Burden
    Combat Brutes are adept at lugging lots of heavy gear and how to effectively throw their weight around. Starting at 7th level, they double their capacities for carrying, lifting, pushing, and pulling, and gain advantage on non-combat strength checks.

    Hulking Hurler
    Tossing big, heavy things at an enemy is always a useful tactic. A 10th level Brute can treat any weapon with the Heavy descriptor and any sufficiently large improvised weapon as if it had the Thrown Property, with a range of 20/60 feet, and gains proficiency with thrown improvised weapons.

    Musclebound enforcer
    Violence never solves anything. The visible threat of violence, however will get you very far. A 15th level Brute adds his Strength bonus in addition to his charisma bonus to all Intimidation checks

    Awesome Blow
    The sheer force of the impact from your blows is enough to send creatures flying. Starting at 18th level, when you hit a foe with a weapon with the Heavy trait, you may shove them away from you in a straight line. You can move them 5 ft for every 5 points of damage your attack does.


    New Feat
    Combat Brute
    Prerequisite: Extra attack class feature
    +1 strength
    - After Shoving a target, you gain advantage on your next attack against that target.
    - When using the attack action to make an attack with a Heavy melee weapon, you may choose to forgo any number of additional attacks you get from the Extra Attack feature. For each attack you forego, you add two extra weapon damage dice to your damage roll. (Example: Tordek is an 11th level fighter, and gets two additional attacks with the Extra Attack class feature. When using Combat Brute with his great axe, He decides to give up both of his extra attacks, adding an additional 2d12 to his damage for each, for a total bonus of 4d12. If he were using a greatsword, he'd add 4d6).
    Last edited by Submortimer; 2015-07-10 at 07:37 PM.

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    Default Re: Fighter Martial Archetype: Brute

    If violence isn't the solution you're not TRYING HARD ENOUGH.

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    Default Re: Fighter Martial Archetype: Brute

    I really like this archetype, it's flavourful and seems balanced to me.

    I'm not too sure about the feat, but it's just a gut feeling. Also, it's provide a incentative to use great axe vs great sword, which ain't a bad thing.
    Last edited by DanyBallon; 2015-07-10 at 06:32 AM.

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    Default Re: Fighter Martial Archetype: Brute

    I'd be very specific with the wording of your feat. Despite the intent of being fighter based feat using their number of attacks for raw power, it is easily abused by other classes/combinations. I used a similar bullet for a feat and had to word it very carefully to prevent the rogue from demolishing the BEBG with one hit.

    With the way it is written if someone running an 8th level character 3 levels assassin/5 paladin the first strike dealt could look like this:

    Searing smite (bonus action) - 2d6
    Standard Smite - 3d8
    Sneak Attack - 2d6
    Weapon Damage (Heavy CB, because they're heavy) - 1d10 + 5 (implied max mod)
    Total: 4d6 + 3d8 + 1d10 + 5 = and average of 38 damage for 1 hit
    Using your feat: 8d6 + 6d8 + 2d10 + 5 = 71 average

    That may not seem like a lot of damage for 8th level, but it is for the sheer amount of resource economy, it is a lot of free damage. (33 more on average)

    If this attack lands (it should b/c of advantage) then it will be a crit doubling the dice damage producing even more wild numbers.
    Feat + Crit: 16d6 + 12d8 + 4d10 + 5 = 137 average

    Gee willickers batman, the 8th barbarian hill dwarf with 20 con and basic HD has only 109 hit points (125 with the toughness feat)!

    Sample from my version of this feat idea:
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    [*] When you take the Attack Action, you can forgo your additional attacks from your Extra Attack feature. If your attack hits, you deal bonus damage based on the number of Eaxtra attacks you normally have: with 1 extra attack, double the damage; 2 extra attacks, triple the damage dealt; and with 3 extra attacks, quadruple the damage dealt. This bonu Damage is calculated before additional damage dice are added, e.g. sneak attack, smite, colossus slayer, maneuvers. . .


    When I make things I try to rough draft, like what you have here, and see what I've got. If it feels good, I try and break it and force it to power game in ways that I never intended the feature to be used for. I tweak the wording to cover the gaps and try the same process again. If I find it too exploitable or requiring too much specific detail to get it to work, I scrap it and start over. I'm not suggesting that in this scenario.

    Heavy Metal
    If you want to hand out free damage like this I might suggest it cost them their bonus action. Maybe a mechanic like this:
    Spoiler
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    If you use the Attack Action and hit your target while wielding a heavy weapon, you can use your bonus action to dealt an additional 1d4 of weapon damage and force the target to succeed on a Strength or Dexterity saving throw (your choice DC = 8 + Prof + Str) or be pushed 5 feet away for every 10 points of damage dealt by this attack. Creatures of Huge size or larger automatically succeed on the saving throw from this feature. The extra damage from this feature increases to 1d6 at 7th level, 1d8 at 11th level, 1d10 at 15th level, and 1d12 at 20th level.


    Beast of Burden
    I like the double carrying capacity, the bear-barian gets the same thing and I don't see and issue with it. For the Check bonuses something like this might help:
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    When you make an ability check or saving throw that uses your Strength modifier to break restraints, damage objects, arm wrestle, of similar feat of muscle power, you can gain advantage on that roll. You can use this feature a number of times equal to your Strength modifier, you regain all uses of this feature after a long rest (or short, up to you Submotimer).


    Hulking Hurler
    I loved this prestige class from 3.5 and glad you went with the concept without the large influence on mechanics. Idea:
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    You gain proficiency with thrown improvised weapons. You can treat weapons you are proficient with as though they had the thrown property. All weapons you wield with the thrown property have their close/far range increased by 30/90 feet, weapons that do not normally have a range increment gain a range increment of 30/90 from this increase.

    Trying to word it so in specific scenarios the player can combine the Heavy Metal feature with this one while using heavy weapons.

    Awesome Blow
    Honestly I would just have it knock people prone who fail the save against the Heavy Metal Feature

    Also a houserule that my group has implemented deals with pushing and bonus damage (reminiscent of the dungeon crasher fighter feature in 3.5). If a creature is pushed away and encounters another creature or object that stops is movement, both receive damage as though the had fallen. The damage is equal to the that which would be received from falling a distance equal to the amount of remaining push. Example: If someone gets pushed with a 30' effect and encounters a wall at 15 feet and stops, both the wall and the target take 1d6 fall damage because of the remaining 15ft of push. it only comes up once in a while but can be fun if your group is will/able to deal with the math and time this rule presents.

    Also I don't know if its what you intended, but your current wording allows the Heavy CB and the Longbow to use these features. I'm not opposed, I like the idea of a dex fighter pinballing people, just making sure that's what you wanted.

    Overall I love the idea and hope that I didn't overstep. I understand that each group is different and I have my own bad habits that are being dealt with as I process more with 5e design ideas. This blurb actually helped for editing and cleaning up my own groups material.
    Last edited by Gr7mm Bobb; 2015-07-10 at 11:40 AM. Reason: Heavy Ranged

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    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Fighter Martial Archetype: Brute

    That feat makes brutal critical hit like an 18 wheeler when it procs.

    That's just beautiful on a crit fishing build.
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    For some reason this feels really fitting; I got a mental image of a bunch of psions setting up a LAN party.

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    Default Re: Fighter Martial Archetype: Brute

    Actually, Grimm, it says you add a number of dice equal to the number of attacks. In the example, 2. But it could be 3 or 4 additional dice. Not that you double, or triple, the attack's damage.

    So in your smiting sneak attack with a d10 heavy weapon, which is only possible with a heavy crossbow, you could add an additional d6, d8, or d10 to the roll. But only one. Average damage increase of 3.5 to 5.5 based on which die you choose.

    The real issue is that it doesn't tell you to roll your weapon damage die a second time. A Munckin could try to argue for a d20 damage roll, there, since it allows for "one extra die" without specifying which one!

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    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: Fighter Martial Archetype: Brute

    I don't understand the appeal of the last part of the feat Combat Brute. Am I missing something? When would it ever be useful to swap three chances to do str +d12 damage for one chance to do str + 3d12 damage? (Is this maybe a carry over from 3rd edition where it was easier to hit with your first attack than subsequent ones?)

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    Default Re: Fighter Martial Archetype: Brute

    The second benefit of Combat Brute is intended to specifically add more weapon damage dice. The way it works is this: say you're a 16th level fighter, and you have Extra Attack (4 attacks). As an action, you can sacrifice 3 of those attack to add 3 extra damage dice to your damage roll. In a lot of cases, this will be less overall damage than the 4 attacks would be (since you only add static modifiers once), but can be advantageous on crit-focused builds and for proccing GWM. I'm open to adjusting it if it's too weak.

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    Default Re: Fighter Martial Archetype: Brute

    It's probably too weak. Just not sure how to buff it properly.
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    Default Re: Fighter Martial Archetype: Brute

    What if the feat instead says that after you hit with your attack, you can forgo your remaining extra attacks to add 2 damage dice from the weapon you use for each extra attack that you didn't use. This way, you won't lose your extra attacks if you miss on the first attack roll. You may end up with a less devastating blow if you do it on you second attack, but at least the bonus damage dice are automatic.

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    Default Re: Fighter Martial Archetype: Brute

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    It's probably too weak. Just not sure how to buff it properly.
    I actually just buffed it, and properly worded it.

    I think now it's a good risk vs. Reward mechanic. Now, the 16th level fighter with a greataxe and 20 str has the choice between doing 7d12+5 (avg 50.5, min 12, max 89) or 4d12+20 (avg 45, min 22, max 68). That looks unbalanced, but remember that with GWM, you might increase the big hit by 10 (to 99), but you'll increase the other round by 40(to 108).

    Plus, as was mentioned before, a crit becomes totally INSANE.

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    Default Re: Fighter Martial Archetype: Brute

    2 per is probably too powerful. That effectively doubles your damage.

    I do like the "Choose AFTER you hit", though. That would go a long way to making it better.
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    Default Re: Fighter Martial Archetype: Brute

    Quote Originally Posted by DanyBallon View Post
    What if the feat instead says that after you hit with your attack, you can forgo your remaining extra attacks to add 2 damage dice from the weapon you use for each extra attack that you didn't use. This way, you won't lose your extra attacks if you miss on the first attack roll. You may end up with a less devastating blow if you do it on you second attack, but at least the bonus damage dice are automatic.
    That's a good idea. I'll make the edit.

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    Default Re: Fighter Martial Archetype: Brute

    Changes made to combat brute. Should be quite awesome, and gives people other than Half Orcs and Barbarians a reason to use a Greataxe.

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    Default Re: Fighter Martial Archetype: Brute

    I'd compare it's expected DPR to Polearm Master. I get the feeling it's a good deal higher, and has no cost (not even a bonus action).

    It just feels too powerful, though admittedly I've not run the math.
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    Default Re: Fighter Martial Archetype: Brute

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    I'd compare it's expected DPR to Polearm Master. I get the feeling it's a good deal higher, and has no cost (not even a bonus action).

    It just feels too powerful, though admittedly I've not run the math.
    I have, though I never remember what the avg damage boost is from GWF.

    Let me show you:

    Assume level 16 PM with GWM and 20 str.
    Assume level 16 CB with GWM and 20 str.

    Normal round:
    CB: 4d12+20 (avg 46)
    PM: 4d10+1d4+25 (avg 49.5)

    Brute strike
    CB: 7d12+5 (avg 50.5)
    PM: 4d10+1d4+25 (avg 49.5)

    Power attack round
    CB: 4d12+45 (avg 86)
    CB: 7d12+15(avg 60.5)
    PM: 4d10+1d4+75 (avg 99.5)

    The avg damage is a point higher than PM.
    If said combat brute is USING PM, the damage looks like this:
    7d10+1d4+10, or avg 51 damage. Still higher, but that takes two feats and only nets you an additional 1.5 damage per round.

    This makes the most sense for brutes and champions, especially half orcs. Crits with this feat are supremely devestating, and it's designed to have synergy with the Brute's 18th level feature, since you can potentially fling someone quite far with said ability.
    Last edited by Submortimer; 2015-07-10 at 08:06 PM.

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    Default Re: Fighter Martial Archetype: Brute

    Ah! That's where my gut was wrong! I forgot you only get static modifiers once.

    Yeah, with those numbers it seems pretty well balanced.
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    Default Re: Fighter Martial Archetype: Brute

    It's like Christmas and my Birthday all at once.

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    Default Re: Fighter Martial Archetype: Brute

    I just realized-this doesn't work with the main Crit-fishing build. You can't be a Champion and a Brute at the same time.
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    Default Re: Fighter Martial Archetype: Brute

    Combat Brute is a feat. Brute is an archetype :-)

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    Default Re: Fighter Martial Archetype: Brute

    ...

    Stop confusing me with your logic. :P
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    Default Re: Fighter Martial Archetype: Brute

    CB: 4d12+20 (avg 46)
    PM: 4d10+1d4+25 (avg 49.5)

    Brute strike
    CB: 7d12+5 (avg 50.5)
    PM: 4d10+1d4+25 (avg 49.5)

    Power attack round
    CB: 4d12+45 (avg 86)
    CB: 7d12+15(avg 60.5)
    PM: 4d10+1d4+75 (avg 99.5)


    One thing you are forgetting here is that the PM still has to ATTACK to HIT for each roll (5 times, that = 5 times chance of failing and not hitting.). Meanwhile the CB gets guaranteed damage if he makes the first hit. Thats why it should be +1 dmg dice per sacrificed extra attack, so you'd deal less damage than when having to do four attacks, but it'd be secured damage.

    If you'd change that feat back to the 1 damage dice per sacrificed extra attack, this would be the most legit epic archtype ever. Now that just makes it unnecesarily op without risk.

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    Default Re: Fighter Martial Archetype: Brute

    Quote Originally Posted by Th3Law View Post
    CB: 4d12+20 (avg 46)
    PM: 4d10+1d4+25 (avg 49.5)

    Brute strike
    CB: 7d12+5 (avg 50.5)
    PM: 4d10+1d4+25 (avg 49.5)

    Power attack round
    CB: 4d12+45 (avg 86)
    CB: 7d12+15(avg 60.5)
    PM: 4d10+1d4+75 (avg 99.5)


    One thing you are forgetting here is that the PM still has to ATTACK to HIT for each roll (5 times, that = 5 times chance of failing and not hitting.). Meanwhile the CB gets guaranteed damage if he makes the first hit. Thats why it should be +1 dmg dice per sacrificed extra attack, so you'd deal less damage than when having to do four attacks, but it'd be secured damage.

    If you'd change that feat back to the 1 damage dice per sacrificed extra attack, this would be the most legit epic archtype ever. Now that just makes it unnecesarily op without risk.
    I see where you're going, but you're missing something: the PM is likely always going to do more damage over time than a fighter with combat brute. Yes, you have to hit 5 times to get all the damage, but you have 5 chances to make that hit. Combat Brute is all or nothing: if you made the single attack weaker, there would be literally no reason to take the feat in the first place.

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    Default Re: Fighter Martial Archetype: Brute

    Quote Originally Posted by Submortimer View Post
    I see where you're going, but you're missing something: the PM is likely always going to do more damage over time than a fighter with combat brute. Yes, you have to hit 5 times to get all the damage, but you have 5 chances to make that hit. Combat Brute is all or nothing: if you made the single attack weaker, there would be literally no reason to take the feat in the first place.

    If you miss the first hit with CB, thhen you still have 3 hits/attempts to make?

    CB basically gives you a secured big strike, while doing each attackk on its own give more damage at the cost of a higher risk.

    CB still beats any other single attack in the game with +1dmg dice per extra attack.

    absolutely love this class btw, b

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    Default Re: Fighter Martial Archetype: Brute

    Quote Originally Posted by Th3Law View Post
    If you miss the first hit with CB, thhen you still have 3 hits/attempts to make?
    You're misreading hiw the ability works.

    When you make the attack action, if you have multiple attacks, you can GIVE UP those attacks to make the one big hit.

    You only get one attack. If you miss, you're SOL for that turn.

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    Default Re: Fighter Martial Archetype: Brute

    Makes sense. I'll playtest this in the campain where I DM. I'll playtest this as an npc the party can bring along

    Quote Originally Posted by Submortimer View Post
    You're misreading hiw the ability works.

    When you make the attack action, if you have multiple attacks, you can GIVE UP those attacks to make the one big hit.

    You only get one attack. If you miss, you're SOL for that turn.

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    Default Re: Fighter Martial Archetype: Brute

    Quote Originally Posted by Th3Law View Post
    Makes sense. I'll playtest this in the campain where I DM. I'll playtest this as an npc the party can bring along
    Also, remember, Combat Brute is a feat. BRUTE is an archetype. A few other people have made that mistake.

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