Making players play smart

[cdub]

My playgroup (who i have gamed with for several years now) have some issues realizing that being a pc doesnt make you a god or badass. Therefore I have been planning a game where they are forced to play smart and avoid the thought "we are pcs therefore we can force our way thru this with muscle" My current works are that of having the players begin play as 1st level commoners who are conscripted into an army. From there when they level they can trade in for a better level (ex: 1st level commoner to a 1st level adept or warrior then when they level again take a 1st level in pc class) this would also make them think of new ways to complete objectives. Any thoughts or ideas would be appreciated.

Thanks

[jindra34]

Throw up puzzle's (lever ones especially(ugh...))
Bring in Big Toughies that they cannot batter down... (put it on a rope bridge type thing)

[Innis Cabal]

Riddles are always good. Why lock the door when it can be picked or beaten down? A wall of force with a riddle trigger is so much nicer, and heck if they have to run no need to open the door....becuase there is none

[Demented]

- Puzzles are obvious.
- Have them look to capture, instead of kill. (Provide manacles.) Or spy. Spice it up.
- RPG staple: Encourage them to combine objects they have available. (The door's lock is broken. Anyone have a crowbar?)
- Tucker's Kobolds, only not so mean.
- Traps, secret doors, more secret doors, secret trapdoors.
- No monotonous rooms. Not everything has to be a square with doors to adjoining hallways. Windows, bars separating rooms, open ceilings, etc.
- Simpler than it seems: Not everyone is out to kill/betray you. So long as you use the classifieds, anyway.

Edit:
Expanding on the Tucker's Kobolds mention...
If you make the monsters act smart, the players will have to do the same. Simple as that.

[EvilElitest]

My party trembles in fear of Jack the Ripper, a level 1 commonor who has killed 5 party members (about level 12) over the course of the champain. PLay your NPCs like Kefka, things turn out nasty
from,
EE

[Innis Cabal]

playing your NPC's as clowns with massive "LOOK AT MEEEEE!" complex isnt the way to go about things, thats cilche...and would make them want to kill him. As you know EE...i hate Kefy

[jindra34]

My party trembles in fear of Jack the Ripper, a level 1 commonor who has killed 5 party members (about level 12) over the course of the champain. PLay your NPCs like Kefka, things turn out nasty
from,
EE

Explain HOW you did that...? seriously i've seen Int 36 charecters who are not that bright.

[BooBooSpooki]

There are many situations where combat won't solve the problem:
*Someone holds a hostage and demands payment else they'll kill the hostage
*The group encounters a stray [high CR, but intelligent monster]
*Someone in the barracks stole the captain's favourite tabard
*A husband (whose knowledge is key to furthering a plot) is in the dog house with his wife and drunk like a skunk

In any of these cases, sheer violence won't solve the problem. Oh, and if violence does ensue, there will be unwanted consequences.

[EvilElitest]

playing your NPC's as clowns with massive "LOOK AT MEEEEE!" complex isnt the way to go about things, thats cilche...and would make them want to kill him. As you know EE...i hate Kefy

I mean in the way he has to over come challenges like everyone else

That an that he youknow, won..... or got as close as a FF villian can get

Explain HOW you did that...? seriously i've seen Int 36 charecters who are not that bright.

He really only 18 wisdom and a 16 int. He also has a 18 dex. Here is what he does, he knows the city.

He kills victoms who have other reason to be killed
He only kills women who are walking alone

He stalks them for a few days, and gives some obvous clues on his stalking them. If they pick it up, then they must be two nasty to mess with
He always kills them in a relativlly public place, and hids them under a couch. Then a week later he leaves the bodies lying around all cut up

he targets at random, and tries to keep the PCs on their toes. He is a secertary for the miltary, so he generally knows what they are up to.
He has killed five PCs, though only two directlly
When they were level 3, the killed the mage, who was also the lover of the party leader (sword sage) in a very brutal fashion, sliting her throat, then cutting her apart. Hence hte parties hatred of him
He also poisioned a very good cleric friend around fourth level directlly, then cut him up.
He tossed a vial of alchemists fire (he saves all his money for items like theses, rather than spending it on his self) while the party was looking into an room full of alcholol and gunpowered (an terrorist nest), causing massive trouble and killing one, party level 6, leaving a note behind
He set off a trap when he party was level 7, killing the rouge, who lived just long enough to tell the party that it was the ripper. He cut the cables of a bridge, making the party fall into the monster filled waters, party level 9, killing the fighter wearing full plate, and a strangled their level 5 cohort, after droping a brick on him.
He has also killed three more party members that they are not aware of, setting off a gas trap when they were under his work building, (It was a gas intended to protect the miltary, he set it off my "Accident" sense the party does not know the secertary is Jack, posioned the city well with a low acting posion, tricked the party into quite a few nasty situations full of monsters, and had a bomb planted on one
He knows they can beat him normally, he just plays it smart
from,
EE

[cdub]

all of those are really good ideas as I expected to send them thru a kinda bootcamp thing before they are shipped out to fight on the front lines. I still think its gonna be fun as they arent used to being so underpowered, luckily one guy in particular keeps a level head (hes usually party leader) and keeps the others in line. Apart from the level progressions i mentioned does anyone have any ideas on how to do other classes? heres what I have so far:
commoner->warrior->fighter/ranger
commoner->adept-> cleric (will probably allow to choose int or cha to go into wizard/sorcorer instead)
commoner->aristocrat->bard
anyone else have ideas?

[jindra34]

all of those are really good ideas as I expected to send them thru a kinda bootcamp thing before they are shipped out to fight on the front lines. I still think its gonna be fun as they arent used to being so underpowered, luckily one guy in particular keeps a level head (hes usually party leader) and keeps the others in line. Apart from the level progressions i mentioned does anyone have any ideas on how to do other classes? heres what I have so far:
commoner->warrior->fighter/ranger
commoner->adept-> cleric (will probably allow to choose int or cha to go into wizard/sorcorer instead)
commoner->aristocrat->bard
anyone else have ideas?

expert-->Rouge, Bard
You cannot become aristocrat if you do not start as one...

[cdub]

well i was planning to twink them abit to allow for it since aristocrat plays well into the bard thing. I really cant see much for monk, paladin, druid or even barbarian really (although a raging commoner would be fun to see)

[jindra34]

well i was planning to twink them abit to allow for it since aristocrat plays well into the bard thing. I really cant see much for monk, paladin, druid or even barbarian really (although a raging commoner would be fun to see)

Monk, PAladin and BArbarian could probably come out of warrior...
Druid could come out of Adept...
You can always make new NPC classes to fit needs...

[EvilElitest]

no body interested in my serial killer



from,
EE

[Magnor Criol]

Check out mabriss lethe's Conscripted Infantry class for thoughts on this...I think it'd suit what you're looking for great. Nicely timed, too, since he just put it up.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

Do your olayers think he is a higher level than he is? Because if i were them, i totally would think he was at most 3 levels below me. And won't he get alot of experiance for killing them all?

[cdub]

wow the conscripted infantry is nice, kudos to mabriss lethe on it. Also thanks to EE for his jack the ripper character idea as Im considering puting a traitor with murderous intent in. Thanks to everyone on all the great ideas thus far, ill let you know what else im cooking up

[mabriss lethe]

Thanks for the creds guys. I was going to suggest taking a peek at the stuff I've been doing with Non-Adventurring Classes (NaCs.) Looks like someone beat me to the punch. They are custom built for campaigns like this. Just to toot my own horn a little, I'll give a brief rundown.

For those who haven't peeked at them, an NaC is a special 5 level mini-class that a character has to complete before taking levels in core classes and PrCs. yes, "Non-Adventuring Class" is a bit of a misnomer,(these characters will be adventuring after all) but it's easy to abbreviate and does have a certain ring to it. I still wanted the players to get the most out of the core classes, so that meant tweaking things a little. Therefore, Epic progression is delayed until after level 25. To keep the number of attacks per round in line with normal base class progression, I replaced Base Attack Bonus with a Special Attack Bonus(SpAB) It still gives the characters a boost to combat (working just like BAB), but SpAB never goes higher than +5 and is treated as a misc. attack modifier. Thu, it doesn't contribute to gaining multiple attacks.

NaCs aren't very tough in toe to toe combat, don't gain access to anything but the most minor of magics, have severely limited armor and weapon proficiencies, Should rarely exceed a 4+int on skills. The meat and potatoes of the class features rely on lesser variants of core class abilities (limited bonuses, restrictions on the situations where they can be used, things like that.) The more theme oriented the better. I've tried to tailor mine to channel into two distinct core classes, but I think that's more of a fetish of mine than anything I'd want to set in stone. Call it a strongly worded suggestion.

Feel free to use this as a basic guideline in creating your own NaCs. I'm sure you'll have a better idea as to what you'd prefer/require in your campaign world.

[puppyavenger]

no body interested in my serial killer



from,
EE

Don't worry he has already killed two of my PC's

[Neek]

Another way to provoke smart-play is to only for smart decisions. Use the most strenuous way to generate a character, forcing them to create a concept out of thin-air.

3d6 down the ticket, no rerolls. Core races only. Core classes only.

This forces the characters from not only having non-godly stats, but also gives them incentive to play smart--else die.