Casting makes no sense.

[Evil_Socrates]

I really enjoy playing casters, particularly arcane casters. However, I am having a hard time with the flavor of wizard like spell users. Think about it. Let's say I am a wizard. I have devoted my life to studying the laws of magic and complex thaumaturgical theory (hence the high int). The benefit of this extensive knowledge of the fabric of the universe is...I can do some very specific and limited tricks by completing arbitrary recipes and saying funny words. WHAT? Let me get this straight, I have spend years of study in order to be able to memorize specific rituals? That should take a few weeks, tops! There doesn't seem to be a mechanic in DnD that represents actually having magical power, and I find this frustrating.

How does it make sense that magical powers can only be released in weirdly specific and artificial ways. It seems like magic in general should work more like prestigitation and levitation and the like. You know, cast a spell and lo and behold, you can achieve magical effects within a certain power range!

I mean come on, bat poop and chanting to make a fireball of a precise size? Exactly what about the "theory of magic" necessitates that nonsense.

[Machete]

Have you looked into warlocks and binders? That is more, "hey I've got unlimited use of reasonable powers" flavor.

Then again. It is magic and swordchucks and 3 arrows being shot in 6 seconds.

[Terraneaux]

Study chemistry. It's basically as you described.

Wizard magic is basically scientific; FR aside, it's not about this fruity 'art' stuff, and you can always research your own spells if you don't have one that does what you need.

[McDeath]

Well, you could look at it as you've been learning the laws of magic, and all your spells are created by you - that could take years.

[Evil_Socrates]

Chemistry works very differently than the concept of spells. The point of chemistry is to understand why chemical compounds act the way they do. It is a predictive science.

Spells, on the other hand, are more like only learning how to make a select few mixtures of increasing complexity. Ok you can make a certain solution, but you can't dilute it, increase its potency, selectively alter its viscosity, etc.

Spells are like the Ikea of magic. Follow the instructions, get a bed. One would expect wizards to be carpenters.

Warlocks are a little better, because they can simply do random weird stuff because they are possessed by demons or what have you, but they are the opposite of what caster flavor should really be.

[Jasdoif]

Spells, on the other hand, are more like only learning how to make a select few mixtures of increasing complexity. Ok you can make a certain solution, but you can't dilute it, increase its potency, selectively alter its viscosity, etc.

Umm...how would you describe the various varieties of metamagic feats and abilities, then?

[Ulzgoroth]

Well, it's very likely you can change the flavor on the warlock if that's what you want. Depending on the game of course.

But as for wizards...first, remember that they can develop new spells. It just isn't the sort of thing adventuring wizards do all the time because it's enormously time consuming.

Second...don't think of it as modern chemistry, though my contact with that has suggested there's a pinch of bat guano and sulfur involved there too. Think of it as early chemistry. When Alfred Nobel was mixing all kinds of substances with Nitroglycerin hoping to stabilize it (and ultimately settling on an obscure german soil) to invent Dynamite, say.

As for the training, that's where they 'chemistry' analogy breaks down. Anyone can manipulate chemical reagents, whether or not they have any idea what they're doing. To manipulate the stuff of magic takes specialized mental training and systematic preparation. Unless you're a sorcerer...anyones guess how that works.

[Machete]

Perhaps on some level magic makes sense to wizards like math with bat poop, tiny pieces of string, and unicorn blood. Also chanting and hand motions.

"No no no. Poop plus the Pop and Lock plus the third verse of Iron Man equals Fireball not Black Tentacles!"

[TheOOB]

Keep in mind that most of training time for any caster isn't so much learning the rituals as it is perfecting your ability to channel magic. Any character with enough ranks in spellcraft could look through a wizards spellbook and learn the ritual to cast time stop, but only a very experianced wizard is able to gather the magical energies neccesary to acually prepare the spell.

Think of magic as any other field, you can spend a month studying a certain style of swordsmanship, and learn off all the stances and techniques it used, but it will take you years in order master those techniques to the point where they can be useful in combat agienst a skilled opponent. It would be the same with magic, but instead of learning to use a sword, you are learning to channel an extreamly powerful, intangible, and unpredictable force.

Yes it takes a lot of training to become a level 1 wizard, but think of what a level one wizard can do. A level 1 wizard can cast any level 0 or 1 spell, and barring outside interfearance, never fail, even while under stress.

[Evil_Socrates]

It should not take special training for a character who is a master of the laws of magic to make fire in a cone instead of a ball.

Metamagic feats are just different recipes, or rather, sort of a dressing you can apply to existing ones.

A mundane example from another craft:

"Well, I know how to make a four layer chocolate cake."
"OK here is some training! Now you can add sprinkles to all cakes."
"Do I know how to make a two layer cake?"
"Nope!"
"Well, I'm glad I have been devoting all this time to cake making, and yet have somehow managed to only learn how to produce particular cakes, rather than actually learning how to bake."

In fact, metamagic doesn't make any sense at all, because it confuses the issue. Apparently, the laws of magic are so fickle that wizards must study for years in order to produce like 5 specific effects, but they can use a feat to apply the same modification to all of those disparate effects that took years to learn to do?

Also, look at how wizards learn spells. Apparently, it only takes them a lifetime of study because they are too foolish to go to the library and COPY DOWN SOME MORE SPELLS. It's pretty silly.

[Evil_Socrates]

Keep in mind that most of training time for any caster isn't so much learning the rituals as it is perfecting your ability to channel magic. Any character with enough ranks in spellcraft could look through a wizards spellbook and learn the ritual to cast time stop, but only a very experianced wizard is able to gather the magical energies neccesary to acually prepare the spell.

Think of magic as any other field, you can spend a month studying a certain style of swordsmanship, and learn off all the stances and techniques it used, but it will take you years in order master those techniques to the point where they can be useful in combat agienst a skilled opponent. It would be the same with magic, but instead of learning to use a sword, you are learning to channel an extreamly powerful, intangible, and unpredictable force.

Yes it takes a lot of training to become a level 1 wizard, but think of what a level one wizard can do. A level 1 wizard can cast any level 0 or 1 spell, and barring outside interfearance, never fail, even while under stress.

But this doesn't make sense! That is like someone studying swordsmanship forever, getting really good at it, and only being able to move his arms in accordance with aquired diagrams.

If a wizard can channel magic, then he should be able to channel magic. As it stands, he can channel magic, but only into oddly precise and arbitrary forms. With poop.

[Ulzgoroth]

Also, look at how wizards learn spells. Apparently, it only takes them a lifetime of study because they are too foolish to go to the library and COPY DOWN SOME MORE SPELLS. It's pretty silly.

No, actually look at how wizards learn spells. Notice that no amount of copying in the library will allow a wizard below level 3 to cast a second level spell. Any wizard who restricts themselves to the spells they come up with on their own is limiting themselves pointlessly, but that doesn't change the need to gain higher level spell slots.

[Machete]

I can't wait for the 50 lb. 4.0 edition of the Spell Compedium. Bound in real metal out of necessity.
All arcane spellcasters would need to be nerfed because everyone could get more and a wider variety of spells.

It actually sounds pretty cool ofther than the book of spells taking forever to look through. It'd be close to a form of LARPing at that point.

[Evil_Socrates]

No, actually look at how wizards learn spells. Notice that no amount of copying in the library will allow a wizard below level 3 to cast a second level spell. Any wizard who restricts themselves to the spells they come up with on their own is limiting themselves pointlessly, but that doesn't change the need to gain higher level spell slots.

The idea of "spell slots" is what is absurd.

Ok so I need to do this to make fire in a 20 ft radius. Ok cool, now i'll stop time. Neat, ok now for some more fire! Oh what's that? I'm too tired to make fire. Well at least I can call down a meteor. What's that? I need to call a swarm of them or I can't have any? This is stupid, if only I had looked at a different diagram!

[Ulzgoroth]

But this doesn't make sense! That is like someone studying swordsmanship forever, getting really good at it, and only being able to move his arms in accordance with aquired diagrams.

If a wizard can channel magic, then he should be able to channel magic. As it stands, he can channel magic, but only into oddly precise and arbitrary forms. With poop.

Well, for one consider the spell preparation process. You know, the whole basis of wizardry? It takes a wizard an hour to get their spells for the day assembled for use before they can start casting them. Wizards don't channel magic on the drop of a hat. They employ carefully structured mental exercises and physical props to cause spectacular effects with their ordinary human minds! Remember, anyone with the int score can learn wizardry if they want to...

Also, if you can mix chemicals, maybe you can mix chemicals without having a clue what you're doing. But nearly all results of that do nothing interesting, and the ones that do do something interesting probably kill you. Because you had no way of knowing that beaker was going to explode/dissolve/put out odorless toxic gas.

[Ulzgoroth]

The idea of "spell slots" is what is absurd.

Ok so I need to do this to make fire in a 20 ft radius. Ok cool, now i'll stop time. Neat, ok now for some more fire! Oh what's that? I'm too tired to make fire. Well at least I can call down a meteor. What's that? I need to call a swarm of them or I can't have any? This is stupid, if only I had looked at a different diagram!

I actually think you can spin it out so that spell slots make perfect sense for a Wizard. Sorcerer is harder.

As for that, you can prepare a Fireball in any spell slot level 3 or up, let's remember. Or a metamagiced fireball if you don't want to be quite so wasteful. If you hate Meteor Swarm so badly you'd rather have a DBF in that slot, you can do that.

(Also, time stop does not in fact stop time at all. It only appears that way subjectively. The wizard in me twitches in pain when someone mistakes that...)

[Vyker]

If a wizard can channel magic, then he should be able to channel magic.

But what does that mean?

"Channeling magic" has no real clear definition. Some would argue that a wizard is channeling magic every time he casts a spell in the fashion D&D describes.

Can you clear up, what, exactly, you envision "channeling magic" to be like?

[Evil_Socrates]

But it's all practical and no theory! Why is it that wizards can only prepare foolishly narrow spells. I get (and actually really like) the idea of "hanging" spells and then just snapping the switch into place. It's the idea that wizards can't prepare a greater variety of spells that is annoying.

If it is just the ability to "mix chemicals" in interesting ways, then it should just be a skill check. It isn't, it's about channeling arcane might. If I can conjure forth enough power to reverse gravity, and I already know how to make a big puddle of grease, I should be able to make the grease write my name in flaming letters, without spending months in painstaking research because I presumably know what I am doing.

Wizard just screams the flavor of knowing how to do magic but not really understanding why it works as it does.

[Evil_Socrates]

(Also, time stop does not in fact stop time at all. It only appears that way subjectively. The wizard in me twitches in pain when someone mistakes that...)

I didn't say it was time stop, I said I stopped time, could have been a less powerful researched spell, mr. nitpicker ;)

Also, define time for me. I'll give you a dollar if you can do it without referencing subjective experience.

Finally, that's all well and good, but you have to have already learned those spells from scrolls. You mean to tell me I can make a delayed blast fireball, but I can't make a smaller one. Or one with a different (or no) timer?

Here is an actual suggestion instead of me ranting. I think spells should describe the power level of a particular action, and then the caster, when he prepares it, specifies what it does.

Example: I know how to make firey explosions (3rd level). As a result, I can make a homogenous firey explosion that covers a maximum area of 20 ft. I can shape it however I want, so long as it is a continous blast.

I realize this may not be workable, and that I have mostly been complaining. However, I am mostly looking for flavor related suggestions. Playing a character who studies magic all day with his big strong brain who can only cast pre-set spells seems like playing a mathematician who can only solve problems he has seen before.

[Mewtarthio]

Think of it this way (and I don't take credit for inventing this Theory of Magic, by the way: It's just the most logical one I've seen):

In order to cast a spell, you must first acquire a sort of pre-spell. We'll call this a "spell template." A spell template is basically the underlying structure of a spell. Magical energy is channelled through these templates, causing the effect of a spell to be generated. It's not a physical object, but rather is an object bound to the spirit of the creature casting the spell. Creatures with spell-like abilities have these templates inborn, a natural part of their life force as a result of magical experimentation, natural evolution, or supernatural creation. They also have the energy necessary to activate these templates, though they generally can only use a template a few times before exhausting their energy resources until they've rested.

Other creatures, such as humans, have no natural templates. They must acquire these templates through one of the methods that will be detailed later. Even when they do acquire said templates, they are unable to use them instinctively, as a creature with spell-like abilities. They must instead go through rituals to channel the spell energy, requiring gestures, incantations, and other objects with which to focus the magic (in some cases, the energy is powerful enough to drain the caster's own energy--XP components). It is possible for the caster to learn how to do what other creatures do instinctively, but this actually requires more energy for the caster (metamagic will be detailed later).

Clerics acquire their spell templates from deities. Deities are quite capable of simply bestowing the spell templates upon their loyal followers, though these templates are only temporary. A trained cleric has a greater reserve of spell energy to channel through the templates, but cannot overcome the fact that the template is unnatural. Once a template is used, it becomes unusable and is effectively destroyed, as it was never more than hastily attached to the cleric's spirit. Of course, sometimes deities choose to integrate the template more permanently with their followers, but that's not the Cleric class, and this only covers core classes. Note Druids and Rangers have similar restrictions.

Wizards have the power to create new spell templates from the ambient magical energies and to attach these templates to their own spirits. They have the same problem as divine prepared casters in that the templates are only temporary, but Wizards face an additional restriction: They have no deities willing to give them new templates. Wizards must design their own templates, storing the instructions within spellbooks. They normally research spells at a slow rate (the spells gained on level up), but spend a lot of time hunting down new spells from scrolls, other wizards, and the like. Additonally, Wizards spend their time performing exercises to strengthen their own spirits, improving their capacity to store and channel spell energy.

Sorcerors are unique. Unlike other casters, they have inborn templates. Unlike most creatures, they can actually find new templates as they age and train. However, the inborn templates of Sorcerors are merely magical or genetic flukes: They have no instincts to use them. Thus, they still must supply the ritualistic components necessary to utilize the template properly. However, the templates aren't expended when they are used, being limited only by the amount of spell energy the Sorceror can channel.

Magic items--at least the spell trigger and spell activation variety--are items with templates attached to them. A scroll already has the spell energy necessary to activate its respective template, though only enough for one activation.

Too tired to continue writing. You get the idea. Maybe I'll post more tomorrow.

[Ulzgoroth]

But it's all practical and no theory! Why is it that wizards can only prepare foolishly narrow spells. I get (and actually really like) the idea of "hanging" spells and then just snapping the switch into place. It's the idea that wizards can't prepare a greater variety of spells that is annoying.

I don't understand. What sort of variety do you want? They can, with appropriate learning, cast probably more than half of all spells WoTC ever wrote, plus anything you can convince the DM to let you invent by research. They can't prepare that many at a time, and most of the ones they prepare are very narrow in their effects. You could make more flexible spells if you wanted to, but presumably a spell that can duplicate the effects of multiple other spells would be higher level than the highest it can duplicate. Like Shadow Conjuration, or the other few high-flex spells out there.

If it is just the ability to "mix chemicals" in interesting ways, then it should just be a skill check. It isn't, it's about channeling arcane might. If I can conjure forth enough power to reverse gravity, and I already know how to make a big puddle of grease, I should be able to make the grease write my name in flaming letters, without spending months in painstaking research because I presumably know what I am doing.

And I'm pretty sure you can, with Sculpt Spell metamagic. Well, except for the flaming part, since Grease burning is at best debatable.

Prepared, remember? Do you want to take that skill check in your hour of preparation? Oh, wait...you already get to pass that check automatically, because wizards never mis-prepare a spell.

Wizard just screams the flavor of knowing how to do magic but not really understanding why it works as it does.

See my example about Alfred Nobel. He quite literally took nitroglycerin and added all kinds of things to it trying to figure out how to make it solid and stable. Some of them worked out really badly (sawdust). He had some theory, but not enough to give him the answer straight out.

I didn't say it was time stop, I said I stopped time, could have been a less powerful researched spell, mr. nitpicker ;)

Also, define time for me. I'll give you a dollar if you can do it without referencing subjective experience.

Something that altered time for all other people would seem to me logically more powerful than timestop, even if in terms of play balance it was less effective.

Also, time. See first paragraph. "A dimension in which events occur in sequence". Awkward, but I'd like to see any definition that isn't.

[Kevka Palazzo]

If you want a really cool and awesome magic system, just play Ars Magica or Mage: The Awakening.

There is another alternative to the "spend years and years studying this magic" that nobody's mentioned. Perhaps wizards just want magic to seem difficult and time-consuming, thus negating competition. Perhaps all that BS about magic requiring all the goofy components is weird. It would back up Eschew Materials a bit.

[Everyman]

No no no! No philosophical arguements from you guys! I've had enough of this "What is time" crap from my college courses. No one can win this discussion!

Back on topic, we have to remember that magic in D&D has to use the slots and current rule systems for one reason: to make it feasible for us to use. The lack of "realism" is due to the fact that magic (as defined in D&D) does not exist. We give it limitations, slots, and requirements so the effects magic produces do not get out of hand.

If you must justify spellcasting, I'm afraid you're just going to end up disappointed. After all, D&D is full of circumstances that just don't add up. For example, how is it that a rogue can dodge an explosive fireball in a 3x3x3 room? How does that fighter survive a 100 ft. fall from a cliff? Why, oh why can a ranger can a ranger shoot 3, 4, or even 5 arrows in six SECONDS? Mysteries such as these run like rivers through our minds, eventually eroding the shores of our sanity. Hence, I dam mine up (read: just ignore the silliness).

[Evil_Socrates]

Interesting theory Mewtharthio, and I think it is a quasi reasonable explanation for how people seem to do magic.

Unfortunately, it doesn't really fix my problem: no one knows why or how magic works. All magical practicioners are tinkers who just fiddle with stuff until it makes an explosion or what have you, and not a soul knows the theory behind the lightshow.

That sucks.

And Ulz, I am obviously being unclear, sorry. Drawing on my silly cake anology, I do not think wizards need to be able to make tastier food, I just wish they actually knew how to bake, even if the end product was less good than the one three-layer-cake they can learn to make.

[Last_resort_33]

The magic system is D&D is not perfect. But the thing is, that magic is broken enough as it is. The more flexible something is, especially something as major and powerful as magic. The simple, metagame fact is that without creating a completely huge and incomprehensible book devoted entirely to the magic system, then it'd be too easy for the players just to **** the whole game.

[illathid]

Interesting theory Mewtharthio, and I think it is a quasi reasonable explanation for how people seem to do magic.

Unfortunately, it doesn't really fix my problem: no one knows why or how magic works. All magical practicioners are tinkers who just fiddle with stuff until it makes an explosion or what have you, and not a soul knows the theory behind the lightshow.

Well when you get right down to it, it's the same way for physics. The difference being that physics are "real", and as such people have studied them much more. Even though this is the case, there are still skeptics (and have been consistently throughout much of recorded history). Hell, a friend of mine is a solipsist!

Mewthario, that explanation seems very Aristotelian. Replace "template" with "form" and it's spot on. Which actually reminds me, I need to start working on my magocracy. I'm going to have it mirror the Republic, only with arch-magi instead of Philosopher-Kings. I wonder if my players will get the reference.

[Morty]

I don't think I understand your point. Who said wizards don't understand how magic works? They use it, so it's preety sure they do. And really, I can't see what's wrong with wizards using specific spells instead of doing what they want. It's a game after all, magic has to be defined and limited somehow.

[Hypothetical]

I really enjoy playing casters, particularly arcane casters. However, I am having a hard time with the flavor of wizard like spell users. Think about it. Let's say I am a wizard. I have devoted my life to studying the laws of magic and complex thaumaturgical theory (hence the high int). The benefit of this extensive knowledge of the fabric of the universe is...I can do some very specific and limited tricks by completing arbitrary recipes and saying funny words. WHAT? Let me get this straight, I have spend years of study in order to be able to memorize specific rituals? That should take a few weeks, tops! There doesn't seem to be a mechanic in DnD that represents actually having magical power, and I find this frustrating.

How does it make sense that magical powers can only be released in weirdly specific and artificial ways. It seems like magic in general should work more like prestigitation and levitation and the like. You know, cast a spell and lo and behold, you can achieve magical effects within a certain power range!

I mean come on, bat poop and chanting to make a fireball of a precise size? Exactly what about the "theory of magic" necessitates that nonsense.

Let's take a look at your basic premis....

It only takes a few weeks, at most, to learn how to recognize and understand basic latin. However...it takes years to learn to speak it in such a way as to make offhanded puns without trying, and to form deep and soulfull poetry using it.

Now, take a Wizard. Teach him the basics of Magiceese. Sure, he's going to be able to cast a bunch of 0 level spells without even really trying, but that's the equivilant of being able to say " Good morning, how are you?" in Latin. To learn even more spells, such as Sleep for example, is not going to take much longer. This would be equivilent of being able to hold a five minute conversation with a native Latin speaker without looking like a fool.

However, teaching someone magic, which is not just a bunch of somatic componets but also includes a large library worth of gestures and physical componets, to the point to where they can not only learn new and intersting spells such as Fireball, but also have such a deep understanding of the underlying structure of what they are doing that they can take the time to research and create thier own spells ( Such as my personal favortie Home-Brewed Spell "Just for Feces and Giggles") is the equivilent of going through some 12 years of collage and learning Physics, Chemistry, and Biology at Ph.D. levels. When you graduate, you have a basic knowledge of all of those fields, but it takes time afterwards to learn not only how to apply those fields to the real world, but how to expand on that knowledge. To apply it to the Real World...We are not talking about simple skills like "Cashier, Retail, 4", but about hardcore skills like " Nuclear Physics, Control, Atomic Splitting 8" or "BioChemistry, Biowarfare, 7"

I hope this helps you relate better to the Fantasy world of D&D Magic.

[KIDS]

Just saying the words and executing correct movement doesn't make one a wizard. When he works on readying or casts a spell, he reaches out to the Weave around. It's like a huge labyrinth he has to navigate through with his mind. If his intelligence and training are not sufficient, he bumps into a wall and loses the spell.

[Jorkens]

If you want a really cool and awesome magic system, just play Ars Magica or Mage: The Awakening.

Yeah, I played a couple of Old World of Darkness Games (Mage and Changeling, specifically) and they both had magic systems that are closer to what the OP was after. Although their approach requires a certain sort of player - able to come up with varied and useful things to do given rather open ended options and happy to work with the spirit of the rules.

I guess it would be plausible to homebrew some stuff to get more improvisatory casting if you wanted it - new versions of spells trading off a bit of power for more flexibility, higher level versions of spells with metamagic options or nerfing casters' spell slots a bit in exchange for automatic metamagic for instance.

There is another alternative to the "spend years and years studying this magic" that nobody's mentioned. Perhaps wizards just want magic to seem difficult and time-consuming, thus negating competition. Perhaps all that BS about magic requiring all the goofy components is weird. It would back up Eschew Materials a bit.

"The Rite of AshkEnte, quite simply, summons and binds Death. Students of the occult will be aware that it can be performed with a simple incantation, three small bits of wood and 4cc of mouse blood, but no wizard worth his pointy hat would dream of doing anything so unimpressive; they knew in their hearts that if a spell didn´t involve big yellow candles, lots of rare incense, circles drawn on the floor with eight different colours of chalk and a few cauldrons around the place then it simply wasn´t worth contemplating." - Terry Pratchett, of course.