NPCs Without Statblocks

[Zalphon]

I am writing up a new game system with its own setting. It is loosely based on 2e in some mechanical regards (e.g. Non-Weapon Proficiencies), but is otherwise unique. I will say that the setting is a bit inspired by the Tippyverse in some regards and is a bit of a deconstruction of the typical D&D setting.

My friends were utterly perturbed to discover that I intended to implement NPCs without statblocks. Only for specific NPCs and none of them is a figure of day-to-day life. They're more figures of myth and lore than what you'd expect to see. Some even debate their existence.

My friends argued that it is unjust and a betrayal of the players to not stat out NPCs, to which I rebutted with "any DM can do it, but canonically, I do not wish to give them stat blocks."

My reasoning is this. These NPCs aren't meant so much to be enemies (which if statted, is all they will be reduced to), but are more pieces of the narrative of the setting, as well as illogical to stat.

One instance is the last surviving dragon of the setting. He's one of the NPCs who I feel statting would be dishonoring. He's the last of a dead race and dates back older than some of the gods (all of which have disappeared). He is quite literally the oldest surviving being in the setting.

I feel reducing what could be used as a great plot device to a mere enemy to be killed as soon as the players are of level is a great waste. Countless have tried to kill him in the setting's lore, but nobody ever succeeds. And I hope that should serve as a warning to players (although some will take it as a challenge, just like some attempt to slay the Lady of Pain). But even beyond my affection for said NPC, how does one stat such a being?

With his incredibly advanced age (and the fact that dragons go stronger with age), as well as the fact that it's more than possible he'd have learned the various forms of magic, I feel statting him would do one of two things:

a) Create a game/lore inconsistency. If a few mortals can defeat what an entire race considers to be their god, what does that say for him?

b) Create an unwinnable NPC that players define as cheap and unfair. "Why does he have so many Hit Dice and so many powers? How can we possibly beat him?"

So, I am looking to you all for counsel. I want to leave him unstatted, but if somebody can advise what would be better than that, feel free. I'm more than willing to hear opinions.

[Knaight]

Leave them unstatted. There are plenty of games which don't provide statistics for every NPC mentioned, including more than a few that are a lot like D&D - which is where this whole idea of statting out every NPC in the first place comes from. The icons of 13th age have no stats. Legend of the Five Rings alludes to tons of major historical figures, almost all of which are ordinary mortals (though talented and influential). They generally don't have stats. Shadowrun didn't stat out the named leaders of its shadowy megacorps, including the one that's a literal dragon.

[SMWallace]

Well, don't forget the paradigm that's currently the reason Lady of Pain is the only RAW "deity" to remain undefeated in 3.5; if you stat it, somebody will find a way to kill it. Taking it a step further, if you stat it and your system isn't mostly airtight, somebody will find a loophole and abuse is so hard that your supposed god becomes just a slightly larger packet of XP than normal.

That said, you can't please everybody. If you want it to be a godlike entity that even the mightiest band of adventurers would be foolish to battle, make it a godlike entity that even the mightiest band of adventurers would be foolish to battle. If your PCs get utterly swept, it's their own fault for ignoring the obvious warning signs, while if you lower it down to their level and they win, they haven't actually accomplished anything worth talking about. If you do decide to represent it mechanically, don't play it down to the level of "particularly strong monster that PCs should normally be able to fight at some level," just make it as strong as you think it truly is, and let wave after wave of high-level party try to bash their heads against it to no avail. That way, if somebody does end up defeating it, they can cheer and celebrate and talk about how great their strategy or whatever was for years to come.

(Or, at the very least, they can go onto an online message board and pretend to be an advertisement. "Kill the godlike entity of Zalphon's game in three rounds with this weird trick!")

Alternatively, you can make it's stats "no," but what's a good dungeon crawling game if you can't destabilize the cosmos a little bit every now and again?

I mean, aside from every dungeon crawler ever besides D&D...

[dream]

Leave them unstatted. There are plenty of games which don't provide statistics for every NPC mentioned, including more than a few that are a lot like D&D - which is where this whole idea of statting out every NPC in the first place comes from. The icons of 13th age have no stats. Legend of the Five Rings alludes to tons of major historical figures, almost all of which are ordinary mortals (though talented and influential). They generally don't have stats. Shadowrun didn't stat out the named leaders of its shadowy megacorps, including the one that's a literal dragon.

+1 this.

I stopped statting-up any NPCs about two years ago. Steve Kenson, designer of Mutants & Masterminds, ICONS, Blue Rose & more wrote at length about not needing NPC stats. It's a real waste of GM time. Just have an idea where you want the NPC's/monster's bonuses/penalties to be and run with it. Keep notes as you go. And stop telling your players what you're doing: they need to think you're working reaaalllyyyy hard

[Zalphon]

One of the things about deity slaying 3.5e though is their Alter Reality Salient Divine Ability. Making it so even if the players defeat it, its really DM fiat that they didn't simply alter reality the players away. Right?

[noob]

One of the things about deity slaying 3.5e though is their Alter Reality Salient Divine Ability. Making it so even if the players defeat it, its really DM fiat that they didn't simply alter reality the players away. Right?

Well if you start stating up someone and wants it to be really powerful there is two problems:
1: Players are crazily good at killing stuff
2: If he is so strong that players can not kill it is it kill-able and why is it not the master of the multiverse?
So just do not stat it up it is a really wrong idea.

[NichG]

Well if you start stating up someone and wants it to be really powerful there is two problems:
1: Players are crazily good at killing stuff
2: If he is so strong that players can not kill it is it kill-able and why is it not the master of the multiverse?
So just do not stat it up it is a really wrong idea.

The canonical example of something like this is 'the sun'. The sun is ostensibly an object that exists and has influence on the world. Its also ostensibly something that could 'die' through various means. However, those means lie so far outside of the paradigm of personal-scale skirmish conflicts that its meaningless to try to give the sun stats of that sort. Yet at the same time, its not like the sun is going to go and take over the multiverse - its the sun, it sits there and glows and makes things fall into it, but that's about it. It has a lot of stability and power, but very little agency.

Thats why one of the ways to make a very high-powered NPC not wreck a setting is to make it so that their agency is strictly limited. They have ultimate power within a particular very narrow set of limits, but they lack the power to go outside of those limits. The thing is, thats exactly the opposite of the kind of power that is generally represented by the game mechanics, which are designed to give the players more and more agency as they advance in level. Such things are better off without stats, but instead with a strong sense of where the boundaries of their agency lies.

That said, I'd go beyond the saying 'if it has stats, the players will kill it' and rather say 'if it looks like it should have stats, some players will try to kill it'. If you put the sun in a human body and sit it on a throne (or a monster body or whatever), even if it is still literally the sun in addition to being that human body on a throne, the players will see 'it has a humanoid form' as 'this is something we can interact with the same way we interact with other things that have bodies and are about our size, give or take a few orders of magnitude'.

[Hawkstar]

Well if you start stating up someone and wants it to be really powerful there is two problems:
1: Players are crazily good at killing stuff
2: If he is so strong that players can not kill it is it kill-able and why is it not the master of the multiverse?
So just do not stat it up it is a really wrong idea.

The answer to #2, when it comes to Gods is, "What part of GOD do you NOT UNDERSTAND?!"

Why is it not Master of the Multiverse? It is!

OR, "It is, except for the 12 others of equal or greater power."
The games gods play are far beyond those of mortals on a qualitative scale. Compare the abilities of a commoner to a brick with 1 HP (ANd no damage reduction/hardness), and no ability to take any sorts of actions. The brick is wondering why the commoner isn't master of the multiverse, despite so much that it can do that the brick can't.

[Zalphon]

The answer to #2, when it comes to Gods is, "What part of GOD do you NOT UNDERSTAND?!"

Why is it not Master of the Multiverse? It is!

OR, "It is, except for the 12 others of equal or greater power."
The games gods play are far beyond those of mortals on a qualitative scale. Compare the abilities of a commoner to a brick with 1 HP (ANd no damage reduction/hardness), and no ability to take any sorts of actions. The brick is wondering why the commoner isn't master of the multiverse, despite so much that it can do that the brick can't.

I just have to say, that's an amazing comparison.

And in regards to the actual topic at hand. This dragon really isn't trying to do anything besides lurk in his demi-plane. I mean there are other entities who I intend to leave statless who plan to actually take over the Planes, but they can not physically do it. They're the brains behind a huge empire and military armada, but they can't do a thing (think Mr. House from Fallout: New Vegas).

That said, I believe these entities (bot h the active and inactive ones) should be left statless. They're narrative pieces who tell the story of the setting in their own way, but its not like they physically are going to be doing the moving and shaking. They either will not, or can not. If they were doing the moving and shaking, they would have stat blocks.

Does that make sense?

[dream]

I just have to say, that's an amazing comparison.

And in regards to the actual topic at hand. This dragon really isn't trying to do anything besides lurk in his demi-plane. I mean there are other entities who I intend to leave statless who plan to actually take over the Planes, but they can not physically do it. They're the brains behind a huge empire and military armada, but they can't do a thing (think Mr. House from Fallout: New Vegas).

That said, I believe these entities (bot h the active and inactive ones) should be left statless. They're narrative pieces who tell the story of the setting in their own way, but its not like they physically are going to be doing the moving and shaking. They either will not, or can not. If they were doing the moving and shaking, they would have stat blocks.

Does that make sense?

Perfect sense

[goto124]

But aren't there a lot of mundane NPCs? What do you do when a PC engages a mundane NPC in combat? Go to mechanics-independant, DM-fiat-based combat as if it were roleplay? Force the PC and/or NPC out of combat in contrived manners?

[Zalphon]

But aren't there a lot of mundane NPCs? What do you do when a PC engages a mundane NPC in combat? Go to mechanics-independant, DM-fiat-based combat as if it were roleplay? Force the PC and/or NPC out of combat in contrived manners?

Engages a mundane NPC? Mechanics-Dependent Combat.

Engages an unstat-blocked NPC... Likely DM-fiat-based combat, as you put it.

[goto124]

But aren't there a lot of mundane NPCs? What do you do when a PC engages a mundane NPC in combat? Go to mechanics-independant, DM-fiat-based combat as if it were roleplay, which doesn't really fly in many systems with combat mechanics? Force the PC and/or NPC out of combat in contrived manners?

[Zalphon]

But aren't there a lot of mundane NPCs? What do you do when a PC engages a mundane NPC in combat? Go to mechanics-independant, DM-fiat-based combat as if it were roleplay, which doesn't really fly in many systems with combat mechanics? Force the PC and/or NPC out of combat in contrived manners?

A normal NPC would operate under the combat mechanics.

[TheCrowing1432]

The canonical example of something like this is 'the sun'. The sun is ostensibly an object that exists and has influence on the world. Its also ostensibly something that could 'die' through various means. However, those means lie so far outside of the paradigm of personal-scale skirmish conflicts that its meaningless to try to give the sun stats of that sort. Yet at the same time, its not like the sun is going to go and take over the multiverse - its the sun, it sits there and glows and makes things fall into it, but that's about it. It has a lot of stability and power, but very little agency.

Thats why one of the ways to make a very high-powered NPC not wreck a setting is to make it so that their agency is strictly limited. They have ultimate power within a particular very narrow set of limits, but they lack the power to go outside of those limits. The thing is, thats exactly the opposite of the kind of power that is generally represented by the game mechanics, which are designed to give the players more and more agency as they advance in level. Such things are better off without stats, but instead with a strong sense of where the boundaries of their agency lies.

That said, I'd go beyond the saying 'if it has stats, the players will kill it' and rather say 'if it looks like it should have stats, some players will try to kill it'. If you put the sun in a human body and sit it on a throne (or a monster body or whatever), even if it is still literally the sun in addition to being that human body on a throne, the players will see 'it has a humanoid form' as 'this is something we can interact with the same way we interact with other things that have bodies and are about our size, give or take a few orders of magnitude'.

Me (A 20th level wizard): You see that bright ball up there in the sky?
The rest of the party: Um the sun?
Me: Yeah, Im gonna fight it.

[BigKahuna]

+1 this.

I stopped statting-up any NPCs about two years ago. Steve Kenson, designer of Mutants & Masterminds, ICONS, Blue Rose & more wrote at length about not needing NPC stats. It's a real waste of GM time. Just have an idea where you want the NPC's/monster's bonuses/penalties to be and run with it. Keep notes as you go. And stop telling your players what you're doing: they need to think you're working reaaalllyyyy hard

Do you remember what his reasoning for not giving NPCs stats was?

I usually stat up NPCs but I just ran a session where the party went completely off track and stormed a castle that I'd just put in for scenery. I didn't have time to stat NPCs and just came up with some basic ideas for AC/HP/Damage etc... and ran with it. It actually turned out surprisingly well and I'm thinking about switching to looser stats for NPCs.

[dream]

Do you remember what his reasoning for not giving NPCs stats was?

I usually stat up NPCs but I just ran a session where the party went completely off track and stormed a castle that I'd just put in for scenery. I didn't have time to stat NPCs and just came up with some basic ideas for AC/HP/Damage etc... and ran with it. It actually turned out surprisingly well and I'm thinking about switching to looser stats for NPCs.

He's written on the subject in several places several times. Here's one article from his blog.

Glad you're game went well "on-the-fly". I had the same experience when I started running PbP games years ago & dropped the whole stat business. It really sped up everything for me & gave me more time to focus on setting/PCs.

[erikun]

In general, things without statblocks are fine. The earth (or whatever planet the setting is on) generally does not have a statblock. It doesn't have a Break DC or a big pile of HP. You simply do not interact with it on the level where a statblock would have any meaning. And if a party does happen to interact with it in such a way - if they acquire an epic-level spell or interdimensional superweapon - then it is mostly a case of answering "does this actually work?" rather than running a bunch of numbers and making a comparison.

That said, stuff like the earth/sun/Lady of Pain tend to work without statblocks because of their position. They aren't an encounter which the PCs can regularly run into, or which the PCs can kick down a door and find. They're mostly stationary, doing their own thing and becoming a feature of the landscape, moreso than an actual character. The question I have about your dragon is if it is represented in the same way. What happens if said dragon goes on a flight over the countryside? What happens if the PCs decide to break into the dragon's lair? If characters in the setting can (or potentially can) run into the dragon without too much trouble, then denying it a statblock seems to make less sense. Unless the dragon is simply untouchable - perhaps transcendent through time and so immune to damage, or simply the size of a mountain and so unharmable - then it seems odd that just a large old lizard somehow gets the same treatment as, say, trying to stab a volcano to death.

[noob]

Personally I stab volcanoes, stars and planets to death with black holes polymorphed in chickens because it is 100% raw to turn a black hole in a chicken you can do it by creating a one way portal allowing only to cast spells through then you use trans-dimensional spell polymorph any object and since the limit is the volume it works in RAW.
If you started using stat blocks you should start with black holes since players can capture them and put them in pocket dimension if you allow PAO and the special rules of portal creation.

[erikun]

Personally I stab volcanoes, stars and planets to death with black holes polymorphed in chickens because it is 100% raw to turn a black hole in a chicken you can do it by creating a one way portal allowing only to cast spells through then you use trans-dimensional spell polymorph any object and since the limit is the volume it works in RAW.
If you started using stat blocks you should start with black holes since players can capture them and put them in pocket dimension if you allow PAO and the special rules of portal creation.

Actually, ethereal/incorporeal forms ignore both gravity and material forces, so you don't even need a one-way portal. Just turn ethereal and you can walk right up to the center of a black hole, no problem.

The larger concern (and difficulty) would be locating one and travelling to it within a reasonable timeframe. Even today, we mostly just know about black holes through very difficult observation and through an absense of data - if something massive is affecting gravity and it's not producing any light or energy, then the estimation is that it's a black hole. Good luck identifying one with a Galileo-style telescope. (Most deities and creatures are focused on the inhabited planet, and so divining them for questions about extra-terrestial objects isn't going to be that useful.)

[obryn]

Let me guess - your players were born & raised on 3.x/PF?

Knaight is right. Leave him unstatted.

Frankly, unless the PCs are going to be in important conflicts with them, leave most NPCs unstatted.

[noob]

" The larger concern (and difficulty) would be locating one and travelling to it within a reasonable timeframe. Even today, we mostly just know about black holes through very difficult observation and through an absense of data - if something massive is affecting gravity and it's not producing any light or energy, then the estimation is that it's a black hole. Good luck identifying one with a Galileo-style telescope. (Most deities and creatures are focused on the inhabited planet, and so divining them for questions about extra-terrestial objects isn't going to be that useful.) "
It might be hard to find but
1: Teleport allows super fast travel
2: No rules says you can not polymorph hydrogen in a black hole(I should have through of this before) and so you can have a black hole of duration 5+2+(2)+(2)+(2)(same family,same int,approx the same material because there is mostly hydrogen in the universe and so a black hole is probably mostly hydrogen(this modifier might not be applyed),directly related(black holes are made from hydrogen),same size if you choose the right volume of hydrogen(GM might argue that you have 0 volume of hydrogen because there is mostly void but size categories are based on the distance of the furthest particles not on total occupied volume)) so you might try to send someone disposable(like a chicken polymorphed into an human to which you give the right item) to create the black hole at the right place and it only needs to understand that in theory gravity could create black holes which is not so easy to understand but a 150 in knowledge can justify that(and you get that with one artificer and 5 +20 item who are then transmuted for giving bonuses of different kinds) but it becomes a lot weirder and cheesy than finding one.

[Zalphon]

Let me guess - your players were born & raised on 3.x/PF?

Knaight is right. Leave him unstatted.

Frankly, unless the PCs are going to be in important conflicts with them, leave most NPCs unstatted.

Absolutely raised on it.

And in response to this dragon flying over the countryside--he resides in his personal Demi-Plane. He really is removed from the rest of the universe.

[Flickerdart]

I would recommend two things:

1: NPCs should enter the scene unstatted unless you expect to need those stats and the NPC is unique enough to merit them. For a scene, knowing an NPC's name, role, and attitude towards the PCs is vastly more important than his bench press.
2: NPCs should have a mechanism to quickly acquire stats as soon as it starts to matter. From the example of D&D, you could just pull out three six-siders as soon as the PCs challenge the NPC to a bench press contest. If combat (or another scene where you need a LOT of different stats) abruptly begins, you should have templates for different broad kinds of NPCs that you can deploy. The PCs attack a merchant? Here's the stat block for "merchant" which applies equally to both Melechor the respected purveyor of fine china, and CMOT Dibbler, sausage hawker.

[elliott20]

or you can just SAY that he's statted, but not bother. I mean, let's face it, you only stat things out if you expect yourself to need it, right? If this is an NPC that is so powerful that you can't kill it, what difference does it make if you stat it out or not? It would end up being a waste of your time anyway. This is especially if you're talking about an NPCs who is less of a character and more of a plot device. It's not like the players are going to run into this thing in an encounter, and have to survive fighting it to move forward, right?

[Zalphon]

or you can just SAY that he's statted, but not bother. I mean, let's face it, you only stat things out if you expect yourself to need it, right? If this is an NPC that is so powerful that you can't kill it, what difference does it make if you stat it out or not? It would end up being a waste of your time anyway. This is especially if you're talking about an NPCs who is less of a character and more of a plot device. It's not like the players are going to run into this thing in an encounter, and have to survive fighting it to move forward, right?

That's exactly how I look at it, but they are a bit Murderhobo in their approach. They're the kind of people who go to Sigil to kill the Lady of Pain. Well, one of them is.

[Takewo]

That's exactly how I look at it, but they are a bit Murderhobo in their approach. They're the kind of people who go to Sigil to kill the Lady of Pain. Well, one of them is.

Then I think it's a matter of different approaches rather than a matter of whether it's a good idea or not.

[Slipperychicken]

Unless you expect you might need the stats (i.e. A PC wants to arm-wrestle or murder it), then there's little reason to assign them. Obviously, a character who doesn't directly interact with the PCs doesn't need stats. Once you need the stats, however, you may want to call a break and assign whatever stats are relevant.

As a player, I see unstatted powerful NPCs as a red flag, much like infallible word-of-god DMPCs, or gameplay outcomes (as opposed to background or setting elements) determined by fiat where the game mechanics are already suitable. It makes me fear the GM will use them to cheat or otherwise strip the game of meaningful choices.

[Zalphon]

Unless you expect you might need the stats (i.e. A PC wants to arm-wrestle or murder it), then there's little reason to assign them. Obviously, a character who doesn't directly interact with the PCs doesn't need stats. Once you need the stats, however, you may want to call a break and assign whatever stats are relevant.

As a player, I see unstatted powerful NPCs as a red flag, much like infallible word-of-god DMPCs, or gameplay outcomes (as opposed to background or setting elements) determined by fiat where the game mechanics are already suitable. It makes me fear the GM will use them to cheat or otherwise strip the game of meaningful choices.

That's a great concern and I think I should provide write ups on them for future DMs, who should use my system/setting if it ever gains any renown, about the consequences of using them to be Word-of-God devices.

[erikun]

And in response to this dragon flying over the countryside--he resides in his personal Demi-Plane. He really is removed from the rest of the universe.

If the dragon is sequestered in its personal demiplane, is immortal, and is basically a god... then why would anyone talk about it as a "dragon"? It would probably be referred to as a dragon-god if anything, residing in its own private heaven, away from other gods and only accessable through a fifty mile journey while casting the correct ritual. It would be fine without stats, much like the deities themselves. (Most deities in D&D are unstatted and stats you do see are for their avatars, not the deities themselves.)