Strength of Personality

[Nevermore]

I have decided, in light of all the debates on "optimized classes" to give a bit of enlightenment as to what I believe to be the best varietyof character: A well balanced character with a vivid, powerful personality.

Case in Point: Thorok, the 1/2 ork barbarian.

Thorok is Chaotic Neutral. Before the game I printed out several copies of his character description and handed them out.

It was something like:

The beast that stands before you is a tower of muscle. His skin is grey, his brow sloped, his hair a messy hand cut mohawk of jet. He has a permanent lop sided grin on his jutting, feral jaw, his tusks poking from between his lips, one of them broken. His leathery hide is a network of scars, some ritual, but most from years in orc society.His ears are slightly pointed, the left ear actualy clipped short, the right niched and missing a few chunks. His torso and limbs are enormous, his arms as thick as most warrior's thighs and his legs like tree trunks, all bulging with muscle and absolutely no body fat. He is clad in crude orc made Breast plate armor, the furrs he sheathes himself in as clothes puffing from between a joint in his armor here or there. Slung across his hips is an old weathered, battered leather belt, a large pouch on one hip, a sling on the other. He carries a large, weathered, blood stained scythe,a brutal, well used weapon with an old rotting Bugbear skull imbedded upon the blade. Strapped to his back is a huge pack, made of some leathery material... possibly people... leather tongs hang from his belt, gauntlets and back pack, tied to small trophies from his kills and the occasional shiny but ultimately worthless bits of salvage he has picked up along the way.

He had charisma 8 because he had a hard time with languages other than orcish (raised in orc society) so he would often accidentally insult people or be insulted. One time to our Wizard's horror he broke the neck of an enemy begging for mercy... then said "How dare pitiful man thing infringe on Thorok's honor by calling him mercinary!"

He also head butt our party rogue and nearly koed him right there!

He also had a hard time remembering all but the simplest names and would come up with funny (and usually mildly insulting) nicknames for the others instead.

However, while only of average intelligence he was very loyal to his compatriots. He would never betray them and on several occasions risked his own life to save others in the group.

But... this was a party that was mostly criminals and alot of inter party back stabbing took place. Noone, however messed with thorok. Nobody wanted to see what would happen if they broke his trust. The wizard quite frankly could have destroyed him and had reason to do somany times... The rogue and swash buckler also had reason on occasion to steal from him or slit his throat in their sleep. Noone did though. They were all to afraid of his unprodictability to try it. In a way I was the least maximized character in the party.. but force of personality kept anyone from trying any funny buisness. The level of brutality Thorok possessed kept PK at bay.

No ammount of sheet work can defeat good rp.

[JellyPooga]

No ammount of sheet work can defeat good rp.

Only too true...

[Cyborg Pirate]

No ammount of sheet work can defeat good rp.

You never understood what those debates on optimized classes were about, did you?

[Merlin the Tuna]

They were all to afraid of his unprodictability to try it... The level of brutality Thorok possessed kept PK at bay.

Now granted, I don't have first hand experience here, but I don't see any good RPing here, either. I see a standard barbarian playing to his archetype in every way possible, another NE-as-CN sociopath, and poor immersiveness from the other players. In a world where the gangly kid that gets stuffed in lockers can kill you 37 different ways with his brain, having cannons for biceps isn't worth as much as it is in the real world.

Frankly, there's little reason to worry about the predictability of a dead guy. I can safely predict that he will not do much. If you're going to be a toolbox to the party and try to sleep in the same tent as me, I as the Rogue will rob a local farmer of his scythe and use it to Coup de Grace you in your sleep. Good luck taking 8d4+6*Str+Sneak Attack damage and raising a ruckus about it afterwards. I might have the Wizard keep a spare Ray of Enfeeblement handy to emasculate you on your way out, too. Sweet dreams.

If your companions acted terrified of someone that was as easily neutralized as you seem to have been, their actions were completely out of line with the game reality, and ergo were not an example of good RP. And if playing Darth Conan the One-Dimensional is good RP, well... eh.

[JellyPooga]

Now granted, I don't have first hand experience here, but I don't see any good RPing here, either. I see a standard barbarian playing to his archetype in every way possible, another NE-as-CN sociopath, and poor immersiveness from the other players. In a world where the gangly kid that gets stuffed in lockers can kill you 37 different ways with his brain, having cannons for biceps isn't worth as much as it is in the real world.

Frankly, there's little reason to worry about the predictability of a dead guy. I can safely predict that he will not do much. If you're going to be a toolbox to the party and try to sleep in the same tent as me, I as the Rogue will rob a local farmer of his scythe and use it to Coup de Grace you in your sleep. Good luck taking 8d4+6*Str+Sneak Attack damage and raising a ruckus about it afterwards. I might have the Wizard keep a spare Ray of Enfeeblement handy to emasculate you on your way out, too. Sweet dreams.

If your companions acted terrified of someone that was as easily neutralized as you seem to have been, their actions were completely out of line with the game reality, and ergo were not an example of good RP. And if playing Darth Conan the One-Dimensional is good RP, well... eh.

Geez...

...I'm lost for words. Do you always play characters completely disconnected from any feeling or something? I'm thinking you must. Put yourself in the position of this half-orcs' companions:

1)You tolerate his crudeness because he's a good fighter, apologising to any hapless victims as and when is neccesary.
2)He might be offensive to your sense of style, but he rarely does anything for no reason (as far as I can gather) and at least he's loyal.
3)The Rogue probably had it coming with that headbutt...trying to steal something off of him (I presume anyway).
6)You, the weedy wizard/rogue/bard/etc., will be intimidated by this guys stature, ranks in the skill or not. This is something you might get over quickly, but the sheer size of this guy is scary...you might be able to slit his throat in his sleep or crush his mind with arcane power but that doesn't mean you will because of a petty insult...you probably have better things to do with your power/time...like complete whatever adventure you're on.

[Dhavaer]

No ammount of sheet work can defeat good rp.

And no amount of roleplay can defeat good sheetwork.

[Talya]

Technically, with their charisma penalty, half orcs don't usually have much strength of personality.

[BardicDuelist]

Most people on the forum optomize on the forum, but play heavy RP with sub optimal characters. Munchkining is a mental exercise for a lot of players, but we prefer characters we like to characters which kill everything.

[Latronis]

Now granted, I don't have first hand experience here, but I don't see any good RPing here, either. I see a standard barbarian playing to his archetype in every way possible, another NE-as-CN sociopath, and poor immersiveness from the other players. In a world where the gangly kid that gets stuffed in lockers can kill you 37 different ways with his brain, having cannons for biceps isn't worth as much as it is in the real world.

Frankly, there's little reason to worry about the predictability of a dead guy. I can safely predict that he will not do much. If you're going to be a toolbox to the party and try to sleep in the same tent as me, I as the Rogue will rob a local farmer of his scythe and use it to Coup de Grace you in your sleep. Good luck taking 8d4+6*Str+Sneak Attack damage and raising a ruckus about it afterwards. I might have the Wizard keep a spare Ray of Enfeeblement handy to emasculate you on your way out, too. Sweet dreams.

If your companions acted terrified of someone that was as easily neutralized as you seem to have been, their actions were completely out of line with the game reality, and ergo were not an example of good RP. And if playing Darth Conan the One-Dimensional is good RP, well... eh.

Couldn't have said it better myself

[storybookknight]

Thorok may be a bad example, but the OP's statement does have some merit. Players who are innately more clever at managing social relationships in and out of game have a higher percentage of success no matter what they're playing. Sometimes this is the 'sleeping with the DM card', other times this is a 'this character is too amusing to let die' phenomenon, but either way a powerful character can really affect the game profoundly.

As a minor quibble, even stereotypes can be stereotypes well-played. Simply because someone isn't the unique lost hero of an ancient race like all the other unique characters out there isn't cause for slamming their character, or the player.

[The Great Skenardo]

There might be a reason that there are so many stereotypes. Most orcs, according to the base D&D setting, ARE, in fact, slavering brutes with a short fuse and big muscles; I don't think it's wrong to play such a character, nor much less laudible than playing a thoughtful and unique character with a carefully-crafted backstory.
The important thing is to bring a personality to the table that inspires good RP, sheet mechanics aside. If you can really get behind the idea of playing The Fridge, then go for it. If you'd rather be a lady mercenary who worked her way up through hard work and sheer bloody-mindedness, then go for that.
Not every orc barbarian is Thog, but there are certainly more than a few.

EDIT: Ninja'd!

[Tor the Fallen]

There might be a reason that there are so many stereotypes. Most orcs, according to the base D&D setting, ARE, in fact, slavering brutes with a short fuse and big muscles; I don't think it's wrong to play such a character, nor much less laudible than playing a thoughtful and unique character with a carefully-crafted backstory.
The important thing is to bring a personality to the table that inspires good RP, sheet mechanics aside. If you can really get behind the idea of playing The Fridge, then go for it. If you'd rather be a lady mercenary who worked her way up through hard work and sheer bloody-mindedness, then go for that.
Not every orc barbarian is Thog, but there are certainly more than a few.

Agreed.
With a -2 penalty to int and charisma, a str bonus and barb as a favored class, it's pretty hard to get out of the pigeon hole.

[storybookknight]

On a second read, my perception of Thorok's relationship with his party members was that he was just unpredictable enough that they had to take him seriously, but still useful and a worthwhile ally. It's easier to control someone when they don't know whether you're going to knife them in the back then when they know that you will.

[Nevermore]

storybookknight has the jist of it... He was not "Thog" he is as I said immensely loyal, putting himself between the party's bard. (his best friend whom he defended, going as far to pony up the loot to get him res'd when the rest of the party would not) he is also not stupid, and tends to act a bit simpler thasn he really is.

The thing is... he oozes intimidation. In a party of finese fighters and spell casters, all city folk, a lumbering brute that 'splodes stuff when he smashes it is pretty terrifying.

He also has some nback story... he was raised by Orcs, the "runt", the other orcs abused and beat the hell out of him on a regular basis... So he's walking through the woods and comes across this bard. Thorok is not dumb but he isn't smart either so he sits and talks to this bard who is about ready to **** himself... Bard treats him like an equal partner, offering to let him join him on his adventures and get an equal share of the Loot... Orcs show up and they kill them all and the Bard and Thorok go off to the city.

His goal is to one day defeat every other orc blooded mortal and thus become a god. I know his belief is flawed, but so is Thorok...

[Latronis]

Actually an 8 charisma means your too ugly to be intimidating

[Nevermore]

We use the rule where you use your Str rather than your Charisma on certain Intimidation rolls... and with Skill Focus: Intimidation, I assure you he is Intimidating. On another note, low Cha does not mean you are ugly. I've played very attractive low Cha characters who were just so arrogant and snooty they were not liked. Like my Knight that referred to anyone of a lower caste than him as "Peasent."

[The Great Skenardo]

Actually an 8 charisma means your too ugly to be intimidating

Only by RAW, but that's an entirely different thread.

[Mellchia]

Yes and no. Sometimes as a DM I will allow the use of strength being the ability modifier for intimidation. Why? Because an ugly brute is still something to be afraid of, just in sheer presence alone.

Words of venom and honey are reserved for a Cha intimidate.

Talk to your GM and see if that's a house rule he's interested in. Just an idea.

EDIT:
Nevermind - you already use it.

[Fax Celestis]

Most people on the forum optomize on the forum, but play heavy RP with sub optimal characters. Munchkining is a mental exercise for a lot of players, but we prefer characters we like to characters which kill everything.

Exactly. I built the Pauper of Smack for the purposes of demonstration of what can be done...but would I play it, outside of a PvP arena? Certainly not.

[Latronis]

We use the rule where you use your Str rather than your Charisma on certain Intimidation rolls... and with Skill Focus: Intimidation, I assure you he is Intimidating. On another note, low Cha does not mean you are ugly. I've played very attractive low Cha characters who were just so arrogant and snooty they were not liked. Like my Knight that referred to anyone of a lower caste than him as "Peasent."

sorry i assumed we were talking dnd

[Swooper]

House rule: Intimidate can be used as normal with charisma ("I know where your children play..."), or you can use strength instead ("I'm going to beat you into chunks with my big axe!").

Always made sense to my group that the huge, muscular guy with the greataxe is more intimidating than the wimpy bard, when each of them threatens you with violence.

Edit: Ninjas! They're everywhere!

[Nevermore]

sorry i assumed we were talking dnd

And I assume having a -1 penalty overall on my charisma is offset by maxed out Ranks and skill focus

[magicwalker]

How can a character playing to his archetype not be considered roleplaying?

[Fax Celestis]

How can a character playing to his archetype not be considered roleplaying?

Because archetypes are cliché and boring and overdone. Try playing a barbarian who's smart sometime. I'm playing one right now, a rather intelligent big-game hunter, who only rages as a last resort. It's refreshing and different.

[Latronis]

Or maybe a barbarian, who truly tries hard not to rage but sometimes just can't help it, and its not because hes stupid, a little naive and exciteable perhaps.

[Dausuul]

Only by RAW, but that's an entirely different thread.

It actually makes perfect sense.

Big half-orc brute (Cha 6) says, hesitantly: "Uh, give me your money. Or, uh, I'll, I'll, uh, hit you. I guess."
Small, frail human bard (Cha 16) says, with absolute confidence and an undercurrent of menace: "Give me your gold, if you want to live to see another sunrise."

Now, people may still hand over their money to the brute, based on the logical calculation of "I'd rather he didn't hit me, because I like having bones that aren't broken." But they won't be scared of him. He just doesn't inspire fear in people, because he comes across as awkward and unsure of himself.

I think what a lot of people miss about Charisma is that the way it's described in 3E, it has as much to do with force of personality as with looks and charm. A half-orc barbarian who roars "GIVE ME YOUR MONEY, OR I WILL RIP YOU APART AND DRINK YOUR BLOOD!" is role-playing an above-average Charisma score, not a below-average one. He may not be pretty, he may not be pleasant, but force of personality, he's got in spades.

(Of course, given this, it doesn't really make a lot of sense that orcs and half-orcs have a Charisma penalty. Just one more holdover from previous editions, I guess.)

[Cyborg Pirate]

Always made sense to my group that the huge, muscular guy with the greataxe is more intimidating than the wimpy bard, when each of them threatens you with violence.

*Sigh* Why do I always see this coming up on the forums?

Charisma is the force of your personality. A CHA4 barbarian with an axe doesn't look scary, he looks laughable. He looks like he's almost afraid to use the axe. When a CHA4 axewielding barbarian threatens, he doesn't say "I am Thog! I will crush you puny man if you don't heed my words!". A CHA4 barb will stand stooping a little bit, not look the enemy in the eye while talking and mostly go "Um... listen... um... I will um, hit you if you ...um *shuffles feet*... don't listen to um, me". People will hardly even notice him trying to threaten them! If he breaks something in an attempt to seems threatening, people will assume he broke something out of clumsiness instead.


I am strongly against using Strength for intimidation.

[Telonius]

There's nothing wrong with playing a cliche'd character, it just matters whether or not they're well-played. People have been writing about the wild, crude barbarian ever since the Epic of Gilgamesh. But not many people claim that Conan's a bad character because he's part of the cliche. The wise old wizard has been in literature for thousands of years, but that doesn't mean Gandalf (or Dumbledore for that matter) is any worse of a character because of that. Not to say that playing something new and fresh isn't rewarding - it is. But boring cliche'd characters are bad because they're boring and badly written, not because they're cliche'd.

[Mellchia]

The irony is that, because he is so unassuming with his personality, that when his fellow party members saw him utterly destroy something, it was no longer laughable. It was scary.

That's how I see it.

[Cyborg Pirate]

The irony is that, because he is so unassuming with his personality, that when his fellow party members saw him utterly destroy something, it was no longer laughable. It was scary.

That's how I see it.

That doesn't make sense.

I'd grant this to Nevermore's character if he's indeed put max ranks into intimidate.

But not to a generic, very low Cha character.

They'd become cautious around a big dumb-looking (low cha) guy who suddenly destroys a wall, ok, sensible. But they shouldn't become scared of him. The reaction shouldn't be: "Omg he's powerful, we must follow him and stick with him.". The reaction would realistically be: "Ok, this idiot here can't seem to control himself and is potentially dangerous when he looses it. Lets ditch him asap."