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    Default AntiPaladin Build and Attitude

    So recently I have started an evil campaign, and have decided to play as an Antipaladin Dhampir. Now while I am enjoying the class, I am finding my mind is sort of splitting on what to do with him, how to build him, and how to play him.

    So first off, I might as well mention we rolled stats already, and I got pretty damn lucky. And rolled pretty well, plus my DM let me use some alternate Dhampir stats to increase Str instead of Dex.
    Str: 20
    Dex: 16
    Con: 12
    Int: 11
    Wis: 10
    Cha: 18

    Feat: Power Attack

    Skills: Bluff, Intimidate (2), Handle Animal, Ride. All have one rank except for Intimidate which has 2.

    We are currently Level 2.

    Now, I am currently debating two things. How to build him. And how to play him, at least in terms of end goals and attitude.

    Build: For his build I was thinking going sword and shield. Partly because I am the party tank, and it is my job to take the hits. And after looking at some of the feat, two weapon fighting with a sword and shield looks kind of cool, building up to a sword and shield bashing master.
    But, two weapon fighting seems a little better, especially since it needs less feats to be effective.
    So I am not sure which I should go with, and after looking up some of the Touch of Corruption abilities, they would be nice to have.

    Attitude: So this is where I am falling a little bit. In the last game, our second session, I felt I was not all that evil, or at least I am a bit cartoony. Between deciding to try and get a blink dog to join us, and after a nat 20 having it fall in love with me, and then sparing two kids who tried to steal from me. I felt far too good. So I murdered a guy who kept throwing fish at me, and burned down a magic shop that was run by a guy who wouldn't give me the wand I wanted.

    I think I need to work out my goals a bit better, and then figure out his motivation.

    So for the back story, the campaign is set on an island nation, which is mostly covered by humans. There was a war in the past between elves and demons, humans being the slaves of demons at the time. Demon Lord takes power of generals for himself. Sun God of the island got a bit pissy and burns down the place, leaving a mostly scarred island. Demon Lord lost power, and we are probably going off to look for that power for ourselves, to attack the human capital, where a Paladin kind lives, with a magic sun stone, that sounds like a pretty cool weapon.

    My character's, Hart, backstory is that he was a noble's son, well... more accurately his mother was the wife of a noble, one who was seduced by a vampire, and after that him and his mother were thrown out of the capital. His exact age is kind of up in the air (New DM, not sure how much he wants me to know about the capital before we get there), so I have basically said he was young enough to start Paladin training, but not old enough to have solid memories, and leads into him being an AntiPaladin, despite the island being kind of a hot spot for Angles and Paladins, and the old demon.
    Now, I have two schools of thought. The original plan, before I heard the story of the campaign, about an AntiPaladin growing into an Undead Lord of sorts, becoming a Vampire, and ruling over a kingdom of death.
    The other involves revenge, a desire to destroy the King, but less on being a vampire and what to do after it, more interesting in seeing the Nobles burn.

    So I am interested in what people have to think about it, and where would be a good place to go from here.

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    Default Re: AntiPaladin Build and Attitude

    As far as motivation, have you considered following an antipaladin code? There are a number in Inner Sea Gods (reproduced on Archives of Nethys) you could take inspiration from; even if these deities don't exist in your campaign setting, the ideas presented are compatible with an Antipaladin's ideals, or you could dip into multiple codes and create a pastiche of your own.

    Calistria:

    Antipaladins of Calistria do not demand great things of others, but rather seek to emulate the Savored Sting in their manner. Most are women; their ranks are filled with those devoted to bloody vengeance and the shining lusts that spark it. Their tenets include the following adages.

    • My life is my path, and none will sway me from it.
    • I devote myself to the pursuit of my passions.
    • I take what I desire, by trick or by force. If others resent my actions, they may attempt to take vengeance against me.
    • All slights against me will be repaid tenfold.
    • I am the instrument of my own justice. If I am wronged, I will take vengeance with my own hands.
    Lamashtu:

    The leaders of Lamashtuís children are proud of their deformities and rage against civilization. They seek to tear the blinders from the eyes of the world and show them the nightmare of nature, the writhing and endlessly fecund truth. Their code is one of bloodshed and howling madness. Its tenets include the following adages.

    • All things are monstrous, and only the weak hide their marks. I show the world as it is.
    • I will bring the outcasts in from the cold and teach them the taste of victory.
    • I fill the wombs. I birth the children. I teach our enemies why they fear the night.
    • I bring madness to the cities, that in their blood and fear they may understand the chaos of the world.
    • I will spread the Motherís seed. If the blind cannot be taught to see, their children can.
    Norgorber:

    Antipaladins who serve Norgorber are secretive and cunning. They prefer to strike from the shadows, even when the odds are already in their favor. They rely on traps, tricks, ambushes, and poison to weaken their foes. Their code reflects a cold and honest assessment of the human condition, and its tenets include the following adages.

    • Innocence is ignorance, and ignorance is weakness. I will seek to shed my own ignorance, and encourage ignorance in my enemies.
    • I do not take credit, nor do I accept blame. I work always in the shadows.
    • A fair fight is not worth fighting. I will take every advantage I can. No tool is beneath me.
    • Cold eyes, cold heart. My enemies can expect no mercy from me.
    • Everyone is expendable, and I will sacrifice them all as necessary.
    • Each life I take shapes the future to my lordís desires.
    Rovagug:

    The antipaladins of Rovagug seek their masterís Great Awakening, and bend all their efforts toward the eventual decay of the prison that holds their god. Their code is simple, brutal, and direct, and its tenets include the following adages.

    • All things must be destroyed, but the tools of destruction will be destroyed last.
    • The beautiful die first. Their loss wreaks havoc in the hearts of those who love.
    • All is vanity before the tide of destruction.
    • The world is a lie. The only truth is oblivion, born of storm and horror.
    • Torture is needless delay. I give the gift of a quick death.
    • I will die standing.
    Urgathoa:

    The antipaladins of Urgathoa are creatures of the night, plague-bearers and bringers of death. They seek to spread Urgathoaís gifts by the sword and by emulating their goddess. Their tenets include the following affirmations.

    • The grave opens to us all. We hasten the living on their inevitable path.
    • The deathless are the true expression of existence, for they are beyond life and death. I will emulate their ways and destroy those who would defile their timeless perfection.
    • I have no duty but to my hunger and my goddess.
    • Existence is hunger. Both life and death feed on life. I am an instrument of transition.

    Pick the one that best fits your vision for the character as a starting point.

    For the two kids who tried to steal from you, I would expect disproportionate retribution - a savage beating with the flat of your blade for instance, or slaughtering all their animals/pets, or something along those lines. Simply letting them go/forgiving them would be a good act as that counts as mercy, so avoid that kind of thing going forward. You don't have to kill them though, just be cruel.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: AntiPaladin Build and Attitude

    Two Weapon Fighting can pay off, especially if you build towards Shield Mastery. Once you pick it up, it's dual spiked bashing shields or bust, I say.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fax Celestis View Post
    An Animated Object is a kind of creature. An animated object is a kind of item. So no, you can't apply a template. Unless you were to use animate objects to animate objects into Animated Objects and somehow apply templates while using animate objects to turn animate objects into Animate Objects for your Animated animated Object collection (or perhaps for a friend to watch anime with).

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    Default Re: AntiPaladin Build and Attitude

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Cut for the sake of time
    I do like the idea of an AntiPaladin Code, as much as they are CE, they are meant to be corrupt versions of Paladins, and having something as a sort of moral guide seems very useful.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc_Maynot View Post
    Two Weapon Fighting can pay off, especially if you build towards Shield Mastery. Once you pick it up, it's dual spiked bashing shields or bust, I say.
    Okay, just got looking through some weapon details, and I see no reason not to get two spiked heavy shields of bashing. 2d12 for no penalty? Sounds awesome.

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    Default Re: AntiPaladin Build and Attitude

    Quote Originally Posted by Draco_Lord View Post
    Okay, just got looking through some weapon details, and I see no reason not to get two spiked heavy shields of bashing. 2d12 for no penalty? Sounds awesome.
    While not intended (The no penalty was most likely meant to refer to TWF penalties), you can full PA, and Combat Expertise with shields and take no actual penalty to the rolls. Sure the shields' AC bonus doesn't stack, but at that point... what's it matter?

    Also, I'm curious as to your maths there. I got 2d6 and am very curious if I made a mistake.
    Last edited by Doc_Maynot; 2015-07-23 at 10:19 AM.
    Adaptation of Child of Acavna and Amaznen into a "Spheres Fighter"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fax Celestis View Post
    An Animated Object is a kind of creature. An animated object is a kind of item. So no, you can't apply a template. Unless you were to use animate objects to animate objects into Animated Objects and somehow apply templates while using animate objects to turn animate objects into Animate Objects for your Animated animated Object collection (or perhaps for a friend to watch anime with).

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    Default Re: AntiPaladin Build and Attitude

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc_Maynot View Post
    While not intended (The no penalty was most likely meant to refer to TWF penalties), you can full PA, and Combat Expertise with shields and take no actual penalty to the rolls. Sure the shields' AC bonus doesn't stack, but at that point... what's it matter?

    Also, I'm curious as to your maths there. I got 2d6 and am very curious if I made a mistake.
    I am probably just going with RAW, and I'll see what my DM says about me doing that, but it does say no penalties, where as earlier it mentions treating it as a light off hand weapon, in another feat.

    As for the 2d12, the reason is that it would be a Bashing spiked shield. This increases the the damage by two categories, so a d6 becomes a d12, I think.

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    Default Re: AntiPaladin Build and Attitude

    Heavy Shield is 1d4, Spiked is +1 Size, Bashing is +2 Sizes. 1d4 becomes 1d6, 1d6 becomes 1d8, 1d8 becomes 2d6. But hey, you're wielding two shields, each with the same damage as greatswords.
    Last edited by Doc_Maynot; 2015-07-23 at 10:35 AM.
    Adaptation of Child of Acavna and Amaznen into a "Spheres Fighter"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fax Celestis View Post
    An Animated Object is a kind of creature. An animated object is a kind of item. So no, you can't apply a template. Unless you were to use animate objects to animate objects into Animated Objects and somehow apply templates while using animate objects to turn animate objects into Animate Objects for your Animated animated Object collection (or perhaps for a friend to watch anime with).

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    Dwarf in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: AntiPaladin Build and Attitude

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc_Maynot View Post
    Heavy Shield is 1d4, Spiked is +1 Size, Bashing is +2 Sizes. 1d4 becomes 1d6, 1d6 becomes 1d8, 1d8 becomes 2d6. But hey, you're wielding two shields, each with the same damage as greatswords.
    You bring up an excellent point. I get 4d6s. At least in terms of a round attack, need more TWF feats to do it full round. But yeah! Greatswords in the form of two shields.

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    Default Re: AntiPaladin Build and Attitude

    First things first, check out This awesome guide to paladins and antipaladins. A sword and board(or dual spiked shield) is a great build for the unholy face bashing knight of evil.

    Your stats, skills, feats etc are fine. I am guessing from your stats and backstory you are Moroi-Born? They are charming and beautiful, but prone to jealousy and disdain. Particularly since you are damphir, you could be a bit salty about not being a pureblood vampire, or able to honorably bear your noble lineage. That teen angst could easily be taken out on the kingdom, either to rule it yourself and restore your noble name or to say "To hell with it" and raze it to the ground. You could have been trained from birth to be a warrior sent to ruin everything, or maybe you tried to be good and went bad? Antipaladins are usually caused by a noble fall, but if you were raised a dark night from birth, was it by your vampire father or noble mother? Both would have access to the ways and means to make you into a disciplined, evil knight.

    I second getting one of the antipaladin codes. Rovagug might be a bit too nihilistic for your tastes, and Norgorber is a bit too clandestine. Urgathoa LOVES undead creatures and would fit well if you wanted to become the true vampire lord you were meant to be. Calistra is the goddess of revenge and scorn, so if your on a angsty crusade to stick it to the man, she is your girl. Lamashtu is the goddess of abominations, and being a halfblood of two undesired races her code would let you be exactly as you are, with plenty of the "old ultraviolence".

    As far as your attitude, remember that you don't have to be violent to be evil. Few of the good evil villains are rampant murderhobos. Remember, you can do "good" things to advance evil goals, where good can almost never justify doing evil things for good goals. Not killing children when given the chance does not even come close to revoking your evil god. Now, if you had Calistra's code you might have been wobbling, but a lot of the other codes say otherwise. Uragathoa would either not care, or perhaps you will have them become undead one day. Lahamatsu would probably prefer you scared the crap out of them and have them tell of the monster that almost killed them. Then later, when you run the show they can sire horrors far worse than they imagine. Norgorber is not about doing it in public, perhaps a quiet poisoning or assassination. TLDR, you don't have to murder people in the street to be evil. That is generally stupid evil and you won't last long in a good world. You have to be smart and pick your evil battles, until you are powerful enough to fight off the guards etc. Evil commits evil acts to gain something-just being evil at the expense of yourself is not as evil as evil that puts you ahead(unless you really want to go wanton nihilist Rovagug)

    Also, since you are healed by negative energy, you can touch of corrpution yourself(and probably pass the save to resist the cruelty) and then eventually negative channel. In combat, use these as debuffs against big bad good nasties, particularly the ones you smite.

    Edit: I'm also surprised Red Fel has not come in and given his 2 cents...
    Last edited by Geddy2112; 2015-07-23 at 10:40 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Geddy2112 View Post
    Awesome Advice given by you.
    To answer the question about his parentage. He was raised by his mother and 'father' his mother being seduced by a vampire years before. As of time of writing, I am planning on his vampire father to be unknown to him, and largely be a mystery. That, or have his 'father' be the one to slay him. He is a paladin, he found out about his wife's infidelity later on, where he cast the two from his house, unable to kill the two he once loved.

    In this case I am thinking of creating one myself, and building up something more personal. As the DM wanted to create his own set of gods, rather then the ones already built, and at the moment I am a follower of a unnamed demon, and need to get more information from him.

    The kids was a situation where I felt I was just being out of character, and the more I look at it, the more I see his character as far too vague. I really think he needs a bit of an iron set of evil morals, though as Chaotic he might bend them. With the kids he just picked them up, took back his money (Only thing they had, he would have taken all their money) and then tossed them down the street. They ran after that. I wouldn't call it Good, but it wasn't as evil as I wanted. I do like the idea of him terrifying them, seeing how many nightmares he can causes.

    With the Cruelties, do I need to have one activated when I use it? I believe the description says I can only apply one to a touch anyways, and kind of implies I don't have to apply any, and just save myself the trouble? If it is RAW I must apply one, I'll ask my DM about changing that. But as Debuffs, they seem very useful.

    I think we need to say Rel Fel two more times before he shows up.
    Last edited by Draco_Lord; 2015-07-23 at 10:54 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doc_Maynot View Post
    Heavy Shield is 1d4, Spiked is +1 Size, Bashing is +2 Sizes. 1d4 becomes 1d6, 1d6 becomes 1d8, 1d8 becomes 2d6. But hey, you're wielding two shields, each with the same damage as greatswords.
    As per the FAQ that came out on late March this year, Spiked and Bashing don't stack anymore.
    Last edited by Tuvarkz; 2015-07-23 at 10:54 AM.

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    Oh? Where is this?
    Adaptation of Child of Acavna and Amaznen into a "Spheres Fighter"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fax Celestis View Post
    An Animated Object is a kind of creature. An animated object is a kind of item. So no, you can't apply a template. Unless you were to use animate objects to animate objects into Animated Objects and somehow apply templates while using animate objects to turn animate objects into Animate Objects for your Animated animated Object collection (or perhaps for a friend to watch anime with).

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    Default Re: AntiPaladin Build and Attitude

    Quote Originally Posted by Draco_Lord View Post
    With the Cruelties, do I need to have one activated when I use it? I believe the description says I can only apply one to a touch anyways, and kind of implies I don't have to apply any, and just save myself the trouble? If it is RAW I must apply one, I'll ask my DM about changing that. But as Debuffs, they seem very useful.
    I just reread it-it does not apply a cruelty when you use it to heal undead, and since you heal with negative energy, I assume it would also not use a cruelty on you. Also, I assume that it would be a swift action to use it on yourself, much like a normal paladin using lay on hands on themselves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Geddy2112 View Post
    I just reread it-it does not apply a cruelty when you use it to heal undead, and since you heal with negative energy, I assume it would also not use a cruelty on you. Also, I assume that it would be a swift action to use it on yourself, much like a normal paladin using lay on hands on themselves.
    Fantastic. I was worried my healing would get a little more difficult for a moment there.

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    Default Re: AntiPaladin Build and Attitude

    If you want to tank, you either need to talk to your GM or ditch the shield. Shields are awful on most tanks. The problem is that by making yourself harder to hit, you make your allies much more attractive targets. If your GM agrees to target you, the shield can work, but otherwise it will make you worse as a tank.
    I follow a general rule: better to ask and be told no than not to ask at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keledrath View Post
    If you want to tank, you either need to talk to your GM or ditch the shield. Shields are awful on most tanks. The problem is that by making yourself harder to hit, you make your allies much more attractive targets. If your GM agrees to target you, the shield can work, but otherwise it will make you worse as a tank.
    See, normally I agree with you. It is why I like being a Barbarian Tank personally. But in this case, I'm Evil, and to a degree, see the rest of my party as expendable. So while I might be hard to hit, that is okay, as it means I am not going to be hit. Also, I tend to just go put myself between the enemy and my allies, and at least smack them a bit when they run past me.


    On a side note. Rel Fel. I have to see if that works.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keledrath View Post
    If you want to tank, you either need to talk to your GM or ditch the shield. Shields are awful on most tanks. The problem is that by making yourself harder to hit, you make your allies much more attractive targets. If your GM agrees to target you, the shield can work, but otherwise it will make you worse as a tank.
    I've never understood this logic; If they can skip you that easily and get to your squishier allies, they can usually do that no matter what you're holding, barring a specific build like a halberd tripper or something. The heavy armor that you'll want to be wearing anyway makes you look just as impervious a target as a shield would, but meanwhile shields are extremely useful early on and only somewhat less useful later. So this is more a failure of your group's controller/primary spellcaster than you - it's their job to funnel the enemies to you, and your job to stay alive once they're all in range.

    And that's just for the ones that are smart enough to want to go after something else. There are lots of mindless or low-int monsters out there, who won't think to employ tactics like that; vermin, oozes, constructs, plants and most undead won't care who is wearing armor and who isn't, and animals will generally fight what's in front of them too.
    Last edited by Psyren; 2015-07-23 at 01:25 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: AntiPaladin Build and Attitude

    The Antipaladin was a class that Paizo didn't really think through entirely, but that oversight means that it falls to the players to fill in what they think the class should stand for. They intended for it to be an opposition to everything the paladin stands for, a paragon of debauchery and brutality in a world of obnoxiously objective morals. The expectation was that it would only be used for baddies, but if roleplayed right it has the potential to make everyone think about D&D in a whole new light.

    Let's talk about faith, as that is a cornerstone of a divine class. As an Antipaladin, you shun the gods of justice and good in exchange for patrons of anarchy and sadism. Most would assume that you do this just because you are a depraved person, but they would be wrong. Nobody devotes themself to living embodiment of everything civilization considers wrong because they just like hurting things, they devote themselves because they see something wrong with society. You look at objective law and objective good and you disapprove, because in the end they're just tools that some people use to get what they want. Huge, self-satisfying tools that people hide behind a better-than-thou attitude and a lockstep norm so that everyone will play along. But you don't play along. You see the world for what it actually is, and you and your god are going to bring the world to the ground so that everyone else will finally realize how faulty their so-called "morals" are.

    Make a scene whenever you can, doing whatever it takes to make people listen to you. Hurt people, torch monuments, steal whatever you need whenever you need it. After all, this is no different from what "just" people do with their endless laws and rhetoric about being a decent person. Nobody helps anyone else just because they want to, they do it because they expect to gain something from the transaction, be it loyalty or wealth or power. You cut out the middleman, taking what you want without falsely blubbering about a fair agreement. When those peasants call in the cavalry, let them come. Their meager numbers will show just how little even the "kindest" king cares about his subjects. And when you strike down those petty horsemen one by one, make a show of it and invite people to watch. Do your best to sow dissent and get people thinking, because independent thought is the ultimate enemy of objective morals. Make people ask questions, make them doubt the justice and effetiveness of a system that they have been told works. Above all, never be afraid to point out that the emperor has no clothes (or mercy, for that matter). If you see a flaw in the world, point it out. If people lash out they just prove you right. Most people hide behind morals when it benefits them, you bare the bitter truth.

    If lawful good worked like it says it does, everybody would be happy. People wouldn't have to fight to survive, or kill for fulfillment. But those things happen all to often, mostly at the hands of people who deny them. It falls to you to amend that, to use violence and cruelty to get the falsehoods that perpetuate them out of the picture. At heart, all creatures are beasts who would betray or kill their mate to save themself.

    You are the stranger who kills an innocent man to prove the how worthless a life is. You are the man who kills a man's wife and burns his estate, grinning as the latter frustrates him significantly more. You are the warlord who drives good men to madness, unveiling their debauchery as they plunder the city they have just liberated. You are the world's reckoning, and all should fear your name.
    Last edited by Thealtruistorc; 2015-07-23 at 06:25 PM.
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    Default Re: AntiPaladin Build and Attitude

    Damn, that was nice

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    Default Re: AntiPaladin Build and Attitude

    Quote Originally Posted by Geddy2112 View Post
    Red Fel
    Quote Originally Posted by Draco_Lord View Post
    Rel Fel
    Quote Originally Posted by Draco_Lord View Post
    Rel Fel
    Ugh, fine. Lightning, thunder, showtime, blah blah blah.

    Look, first off, I can't contribute much to the build side of the thread. Antipaladin isn't a class with which I have experience; I got nothin' there.

    As to attitude? I can't really help there, either. Frankly, I don't like the fluff of the Anti-P. TheAltruistOrc did a great job of fluffing the fool out of that sucker, but the fact is that the Antipaladin is defined in the negative; that is to say, it is the opposite of the Paladin. That's its defining trait. The Monk is a disciplined and mystical combatant; the Sorcerer is a spellcaster with mysterious power coursing through his veins; the Druid is a protector and avenger of nature. The Paladin is a champion of justice and righteousness. The Antipaladin is the polar opposite of the Paladin; he is a fallen Paladin; he is an ex-Paladin. (The Paladin is no more, he has ceased to be.) It bothers me when a concept is defined as "it's not this other thing; it's the opposite of this other thing." That's just bad fluff in my mind.

    Look at the class. It's generic. It's derivative. Each class feature is the corresponding class feature, but negative. It's like they wanted to make Bizarro Paladin. There was, at least ostensibly, logic behind the choices for the Paladin's class features. He's a champion of righteousness, so he radiates Good. He's a sword of judgment, so he can smite Evil. He's a bastion of hope, so he creates an aura against fear. He's a protector of the weak, so he can Lay On Hands. The Antipaladin... I mean, run down the list. He radiates Evil, fine. Smites Good, fine. He has an aura of cowardice? He spreads plagues? He makes something sick by touching it? Is he a knight or a plague ghoul? Plus, he's explicitly CE - how is he anything resembling a knight?

    Please understand, I'm not saying that you shouldn't play an Antipaladin. Nobody can define fun for you but you; play what you like. I'm simply explaining why this is one class on which I generally won't weigh in. The class does not inspire me; it doesn't sing, it doesn't fly. There is no razzle-dazzle.

    So, yeah. Red Fel, mic drop.
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    OrcBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: AntiPaladin Build and Attitude

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel View Post
    As to attitude? I can't really help there, either. Frankly, I don't like the fluff of the Anti-P. TheAltruistOrc did a great job of fluffing the fool out of that sucker, but the fact is that the Antipaladin is defined in the negative; that is to say, it is the opposite of the Paladin. That's its defining trait...It bothers me when a concept is defined as "it's not this other thing; it's the opposite of this other thing." That's just bad fluff in my mind.

    Look at the class. It's generic. It's derivative. Each class feature is the corresponding class feature, but negative. It's like they wanted to make Bizarro Paladin...Plus, he's explicitly CE - how is he anything resembling a knight?
    I, personally, have never really looked upon the Antipaladin as strictly negative. I view it as the incarnation of all the reasons Paladins exist.

    What do paladins do? They fight back the darkness, they do battle with the terrifying recesses of our comprehension that we don't like to acknowledge. They heal the sick, they destroy the evil, they make everybody feel like good is invincible and righteous.

    And that kind of hero would never exist if we weren't afraid of those things in the first place.

    People fear what is beyond their control, and for time immemorial that has meant violence, sickness, weakness, and of course fear itself. The Antipaladin is fear made manifest, and so controls all of these aspects of terror. Think about how horrifying somebody with the Antipaladin's abilities would be in a world without clerics or paladins to counteract their effects. The Antipaladin is just as resilient and capable as the avatar of good, exceept that he stands for the grim realities that paladins claim to offer haven from.

    But the ultimate kicker for the embodiment of terror is the Smite Good ability, an ability whose very existence screams of the inner sense of doubt that maybe, just maybe, Good isn't really all that good. If it was, after all, Why would an ability exist to counter it?

    The Antipaladin has existed, at least in our minds, far longer than the paladin has. The latter was simply written first because it's easier to put a name to our haven than what it shields us from. Chaos and Evil have lingered in men's minds far longer than law and good ever have, because it was because of our fears that we created a way to protect ourselves from them. The Antipaladin is the deep sense of dread that lingers in the minds of us all, an avatar of our fears, vulnerabilities, and ultimate desolation.
    Last edited by Thealtruistorc; 2015-07-23 at 10:26 PM.
    Dark Green, the color of Chaotic Evil

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Altruistorc is leaving me deeply disturbed and intrigued at the same time...

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    Default Re: AntiPaladin Build and Attitude

    Altruistorc is leaving me deeply disturbed and intrigued at the same time...
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: AntiPaladin Build and Attitude

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Altruistorc is leaving me deeply disturbed and intrigued at the same time...
    It's why I'm here. Somebody needs to vouch for Chaotic Evil.
    Dark Green, the color of Chaotic Evil

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Altruistorc is leaving me deeply disturbed and intrigued at the same time...

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    Default Re: AntiPaladin Build and Attitude

    Quote Originally Posted by Thealtruistorc View Post
    Some seriously grimdark ****
    Well Said

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel View Post
    Antipalidins could be a lot cooler, if they were stand alone forces of evil and just not paladins
    Good point. I loved the LE blackguards of 3rd far more than the obligatory CE antipaladin of pathfinder. I think LE is an AWESOME anitpaladin dark night. Zon-Kuthon+Antipaladin=Some seriously evil evil. Me gusta.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thealtruistorc View Post
    Even grimer and darker ****
    Indeed. I think both of you have provided excellent points, in that the antipaladin should not just be the "anti-paladin" but truly a bastion and beacon of all the effed up nonsense walking around on the earth. I also agree that antipaladins should have come first(although under different names). The antipaladin is the darkest horrors that lurk in the night, and the paladin is man leaving the cave armed with a torch to confront them. Rod Serling summed it up best "the pit of man's fears and the summit of his knowledge". The antipaladin is the pit of man's fear, and the paladin is the summit of man's ability to confront that. (Knowledge being more about courage/conviction in this case).

    For OP, I think both have a good take home message: don't just become "the opposite of a paladin" but stand as something really brutally evil and dark. Manifest the details how you will, but stand as the beacon of whatever unholy evil you choose to champion.

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    Default Re: AntiPaladin Build and Attitude

    I want to say sorry for bothering you. You are a fantastic poster, and I love reading pretty much anything you write about. I wasn't aware Anti-Paladins are not your thing, but thank you for at least posting, even if it is because I was being annoying.

    You have given me a lot to think about. And I need to take some time and write this all out, but I should be ready to make my put the finishing touches on my character.

    Quote Originally Posted by Geddy2112 View Post
    For OP, I think both have a good take home message: don't just become "the opposite of a paladin" but stand as something really brutally evil and dark. Manifest the details how you will, but stand as the beacon of whatever unholy evil you choose to champion.
    I think this sums up the thoughts of this thread, and I agree with it. I need to find a cause, and I need to stand before it as a champion. And as much as Chaotic Evil is about doing what you want, and ignoring all sorts of laws, I ultimately believe that it doesn't mean you don't have some kind of belief system, or even a code. You are just ready to break it if you find something better to do.

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    d20 Re: AntiPaladin Build and Attitude

    Okay, just got looking through some weapon details, and I see no reason not to get two spiked heavy shields of bashing. 2d12 for no penalty? Sounds awesome.
    While not intended (The no penalty was most likely meant to refer to TWF penalties), you can full PA, and Combat Expertise with shields and take no actual penalty to the rolls. Sure the shields' AC bonus doesn't stack, but at that point... what's it matter?
    I may be slightly late on this but i am creating an anti paladin today and was reading up where is the no penalty coming from ?

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