Support the GITP forums on Patreon
Help support GITP's forums (and ongoing server maintenance) via Patreon
Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 92
  1. - Top - End - #1
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    nonsi's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010

    Default Vestige-less Binder ?.......

    .
    I find the concept of pact magic appealing thematically, but I don't like all the fuss about the various vestiges and which powers are granted by which vestige (seems a bit too clunky to me).

    I also find it hard to relate pact magic with the Warlock (as in 5e) - someone who wields EB and can fire invocations all day long without slowing down.

    So, basically what I'm looking for are ideas of how to invent a manifestation of the Binder that has no vestiges, leaving its patron(s) vague.
    What I can say about how I envision such class is this:
    - With level progression, it should acquire some set of immunities/resistances (physical as well as mental).
    - It should have powers that are visually impressive and basically be someone whose presence becomes harder and harder to ignore (even without doing anything).
    - It should have a pool of powers (spells?..... (Sp)/(Su) abilities?..... / something else?.....) to draw from.
    - Pact magic should come with a price – something that would illustrate what the patron gets out of the deal (a pool of penalties/hindrances/deformities/payments to choose from or randomly selected).


    I'd like to see if we can take this anywhere, leaving the fluff of pact magic, but with a more intuitive and less arbitrary solution than vestiges, and with a result class richer with innate features.


    So, anyone feeling particularly inspired today ?



    ================================================== ================================================== ===============================



    [EDIT:] . . .

    This section will be used for presenting the most up to date version of my remade Binder.
    Bolded are class features with repetitions. Spell-like abilities are italicized.



    Table: The Binder
    HD: d8
    Saves
    Level BAB F R W Special
    1st +0 +2 +0 +2 Binding (1 sphere: Trivial), Renegotiate (1/day)
    2nd +1 +3 +0 +3 Suppress Influence (signs / mental taint)
    3rd +2 +3 +1 +3 Unyielding Mind
    4th +3 +4 +1 +4 Soul Fortress (immune to fear & charm)
    5th +3 +4 +1 +4 Renegotiate (2/day)
    6th +4 +5 +2 +5 Binding (2 sphere: Formidable / Trivial)
    7th +5 +5 +2 +5 Cosmic Reach
    8th +6 +6 +2 +6 Soul Fortress (immune to possession & domination)
    9th +6 +6 +3 +6 Planar Binding, Dismissal
    10th +7 +7 +3 +7 Renegotiate (3/day)
    11th +8 +7 +3 +7 Binding (3 spheres: Magisterial / Formidable / Trivial)
    12th +9 +8 +4 +8 Soul Fortress (immune to energy drain & negative levels)
    13th +9 +8 +4 +8 Plane Shift , Banishment
    14th +10 +9 +4 +9 Maze
    15th +11 +9 +5 +9 Renegotiate (4/day)
    16th +12 +10 +5 +10 Binding (4 spheres: Empyreal / Magisterial / Formidable / Trivial)
    17th +12 +10 +5 +10 Etherealness
    18th +13 +11 +6 +11 Soul Fortress (mind blank)
    19th +14 +11 +6 +11 Recall Essence
    20th +15 +12 +6 +12 Renegotiate (5/day)




    Class Features:


    Class Skills (as the official Binder): Bluff, Concentration, Craft, Decipher Script, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Intimidate, Knowledge (arcana, religion, the planes*), Profession and Sense Motive.
    * Knowledge (the planes) is the skill whose all Binder abilities revolve around. Binders gain maximum ranks in this skill, in addition to whatever skill ranks they choose to invest their skill points in.


    Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A binder is proficient with all simple weapons and with light armor, but not with shields.


    Binding (Su)
    Binders tap into the very layers of reality, drawing power from powerful otherworldly entities inhabiting various planes of existence.
    When a binder makes a pact to draw power from a given sphere, he's said to be binding that sphere.
    A sphere's characteristics is comprised of the following elements:
    - A special attack mode: 4 grades of offensive capabilities (or an evolving offensive capability), useable at will.
    - Continual benefits: 4 grades of defenses/beneficial influences.
    - Activated powers: 4 grades of harnessed powers for influencing target other than the binder himself (or not necessarily binder himself).
    - A physical imprint that alters the binder's appearance: As long as you are bound to a sphere, you manifest a specific physical sign of its presence, as given in its entry. This sign is real, not an illusory or shapechanging effect, and someone using true seeing perceives it just as it is. When bound to multiple spheres, you manifest multiple signs – one for each sphere.
    - A mental imprint (a taint) on the binder's personality: This dictates behavioral changes in certain situations and poses a roleplaying challenge for the player. While under the influence of a sphere, you must adhere to its influence to the best of your ability. If you are conscious and free-willed, and you encounter a situation in which you cannot or will not refrain from a prohibited action or perform a required one, you take a -1 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, and checks until that sphere is no longer bound to you. If you are influenced by more than one sphere, you must act according to all their influences. If you fail to fulfill the requirements of more than one sphere or disobey a single sphere more than once, the penalties stack.
    Note: all sphere powers operate at CL equal to the binder's class-level and are Cha-based.

    The various spheres a binder can tap into are as follows:
    - 4 for the elemental planes Earth/Air/Fire/Water
    - 2 for Negative/Positive
    - 4 for the aligned planes, Good/Evil/Law/Chaos.
    - 5 for Ethereal/Astral/Shadow/Dream/Void

    Binding a sphere takes a toll on the binder's soul. A low level binder cannot have more than a single sphere bound at a given time.
    When access to greater sphere powers is gained (levels 6/11/16), a binder also gains access to multiple spheres and must prioritize between them, in a sense of which one he's able to draw the most power from and which one takes a sort of "backseat" (as shown in the table above).


    Renegotiate
    Once per day, a binder may address one of the spheres and negotiate access to it, by abandoning his pact with another sphere.
    A binder gains more daily negotiations as shown in the table, at each level divisible by 5.

    Regardless of how a binder chooses to prioritize the spheres he has bound, he always seals a pact with the highest entities he has access to. This allows a binder with access to multiple spheres to alter the priority of one of his remaining spheres.
    Example: A 6th level binder that has a pact with the Fire (Formidable) and Dream (Trivial) spheres. When abandoning the pact with the Fire sphere in favor of the Law sphere, he has 2 options:
    1. Gain Formidable access to the Law sphere.
    2. Elevate the Dream sphere's access to Formidable and gain Trivial access to the Law sphere.
    The same goes for demoting the Dream sphere.




    An alternative has been proposed here.



    Suppress Influence (Ex)
    Starting at 2nd level, a binder may suppress the influence of the sphere he has bound in one or two manners.
    In both cases, suppressing influence requires an effort and doesn't always succeed. Suppressing signs requires 1 round. To successfully suppress a sphere's signs, the binder must weigh [d20 + Binder level + Cha-mod] vs. DC [10 + 3 * (max power grade accessible by that sphere)]. Re-enabling the expression of a sphere's signs takes a swift action and is an automatic success.
    - Suppress Physical Signs: When suppressing the physical imprint of a sphere, a binder loses access to that sphere's continual benefits. The sphere's attack mode and continual benefits become available at the beginning of the binder's next combat turn, when the signs are fully visible once again.
    - Suppress Mental Taint: When suppressing the mental imprint of a sphere, a binder loses access to that sphere's active powers. The sphere's active powers become available at the beginning of the binder's next combat turn. The mental imprint takes effect immediately (including penalties acquired during the previous 24 hours).



    This also needs to be redefined/eliminated accordingly.



    In both cases, suggestions/ideas will be highly appreciated.





    Unyielding Mind (Ex)
    A 3rd level bender gains Indomitable Soul as bonus feat and +4 on all opposed Cha-based skill checks applied against him.


    Soul Fortress (Ex)
    The process of binding a sphere involves the experience of mental images and sensations that are normally unnerving (or even traumatizing) to mortals.
    With time and experience, binders learn to embrace the horrors of reality and gain resistance to certain effects:
    A 4th level binder learns to embrace the horrors and hard truths of reality and becomes immune to fear and fear effects of all kinds. The binder is now also experiences enough in manipulation to reject all forms of magical charm effects.
    An 8th level binder is experienced enough in summoning and dominating powers that he becomes immune to possession and domination.
    A 12th level binder's soul has been exposed to so much horror and influence that it becomes immune to energy drain and negative levels (be it for whatever reason).
    An 18th level binder's mind becomes an impregnable fortress, closed off to everyone and everything except the binder himself. This does not deny the binder telepathic powers or accessing the minds of others (should those be gained via sphere powers / items / levels in another class).


    Cosmic Reach (Su)
    Same as the Spirit Shaman's Ghost Warrior ability. A 7th level binder confers the ghost touch special ability to any weapon held for as long as he holds it. He also becomes resistant to the touch attacks of incorporeal creatures, using his normal AC against any touch attack delivered by an incorporeal creature.


    Planar Binding (Sp)
    Starting at 9th level, a binder may trade a sphere's attack mode(s) in favor of summoning a planar creature associated with his chosen sphere.
    This works as Lesser Planar Binding.
    Starting at 11th level, this power is elevated to mimic Planar Binding spell.
    Finally, at 15th level, this power is elevated one last time to mimic Greater Planar Binding spell.
    The binder gains access to the sphere's attack mode(s) 1 round after the summoned creature is defeated, banished or dismissed.


    Dismissal (Sp)
    A 9th level binder gains the power to banish otherworldly beings back to their home planes.
    As a standard action that provokes AoOs, the binder may duplicate the Dismissal spell effect. A creature that makes its save ignores further dismissal attempts by that binder for the next 24 hours.


    Plane Shift (Sp)
    A 13th level binder may duplicate the Plane Shift spell effect a number of times per day equal to the binder's Cha-mod.
    Unlike the spell, this activation takes 1 minute to complete and the binder loses access to the active powers of a Magisterial/Empyreal grade sphere (and may not renegotiate it) for 10 minutes.


    Banishment (Sp)
    A 13th level binder gains increased power to banish otherworldly beings back to their home planes.
    As a standard action that provokes AoOs, the binder may duplicate the Banishment spell effect. A creature that makes its save ignores further banishment attempts by that binder for the next 24 hours.


    Maze (Sp)
    A 14th level binder may duplicate the Maze spell effect once every 10 minutes.
    A target of this power ignores further attempts of Maze usage by that binder for the next 24 hours.


    Etherealness (Sp)
    A 17th level binder may duplicate the Etherealness spell effect a number of times per day equal to the binder's Cha-mod.
    The binder loses access to the active powers of an Empyreal grade sphere (and may not renegotiate it) for 10 minutes.



    Recall Essence (Sp)
    A 19th level binder gains the power to overcome the boundaries of death itself and mimic the power of True Resurrection.
    This power differs from the spell on several aspects.
    - It may be used no more than 1/2 the binder's Cha-mod per month (min 1) and no more than once per week.
    - It has no material components.
    - At the completion of the ritual, the binder takes 3d4 Con burn. If this ability burn drops the binder to negative number, it resets to zero and the effect fizzles. If this ability burn drops the binder to zero or greater, the target if fully resurrected (with a score of zero rendering the binder unconscious). If the binder has no Con-score, Cha is used instead.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Prince Zahn's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    my fireball can reach you
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Vestige-less Binder ?.......

    I don't understand, you want to create/recreate pact magic so that there is no pact making?

    I think that would do more harm than good thematically, but what's important is what you're trying to do.

    What exactly do you like in pact magic that you would want to apply to (from what I understand is-) a simpler, more user-friendly approach? (I mean both mechanically and in terms of flavor)
    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jette View Post
    If you write gibberish in common, even comprehend languages won't turn it into a sonnet.
    P.Z. - gamer; friend; royalty. 'Tis a pleasure.
    <<Cynthia the Witch by me. she's a nice gal, I promise!

    My player Resume, for potential DMs to read over.


    My Extended Signature

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    nonsi's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010

    Default Re: Vestige-less Binder ?.......

    Quote Originally Posted by Prince Zahn View Post
    I don't understand, you want to create/recreate pact magic so that there is no pact making?

    I think that would do more harm than good thematically, but what's important is what you're trying to do.
    I wish to move the pact making part from mechanics to fluff/campaign oriented.



    Quote Originally Posted by Prince Zahn View Post
    What exactly do you like in pact magic that you would want to apply to (from what I understand is-) a simpler, more user-friendly approach? (I mean both mechanically and in terms of flavor)
    I wish for the class to provide a pool of powers/features/gifts and a collection of payments for making a pact rather than fixed sets associated with pre-made vestiges.
    That way I aim to accomplish 2 things:
    1. No need for a compiled list of vestiges (with pluses and minuses set in stone). Less bookkeeping. Less volume of text for defining the class as a whole package.
    2. The player and DM can create their own pact, taking whatever powers they see that would best define the character they have in mind, and taking whatever penalties that best define the sponsor.

    You'd get a class that allows you to define your character to the letter (and yet withing the theme of pact-granted powers) and serve almost any party role, without needing to mix&match from existing vestiges or reinvent one of your own.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2010

    Default Re: Vestige-less Binder ?.......

    Mmmmm... In Valkyria Profile, Freya sends Lenneth the Valkyrie to claim human souls as einherjars for the upcoming Ragnarok. Lenneth can keep them around for a while and make them fight to improve their value as soldiers. If she sends a lot of toughtened einherjars to Valhalla Freya will reward her with cool stuff. If she does not..well, Freya will make sure the Valkyria understands her mistresss displeasure.
    Is that a valid example ?
    Last edited by faustin; 2015-07-30 at 12:47 PM.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    Eldan's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Switzerland
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Vestige-less Binder ?.......

    If you just select some of the binder powers from a list, freely, without having them packaged into vestiges, isn't that just the warlock?

    Where's the difference?
    "Apr่s la vie - le mort, apr่s le mort, la vie de noveau.
    Apr่s le monde - le gris; apr่s le gris - le monde de nouveau.
    "

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jun 2012

    Default Re: Vestige-less Binder ?.......

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    If you just select some of the binder powers from a list, freely, without having them packaged into vestiges, isn't that just the warlock?

    Where's the difference?
    None. I think nonsi wants a refluffed warlock that changes his invocations daily.

    Add the pact augmentation class feature (or similar) to it, allow class feature flexibility (like the ability to get dr /silver instead of dr /cold iron), and give a list of penalties that they need to pick from when they change invocations. You have your binder.
    Quote Originally Posted by Razanir View Post
    "I am a human sixtyfourthling! Fear my minimal halfling ancestry!")
    Quote Originally Posted by Zweisteine View Post
    So the real question is, what is a Ling?

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Gideon Falcon's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2011

    Default Re: Vestige-less Binder ?.......

    While I understand where you're coming from, making a Binder without vestiges is like making a wizard without spells. It may have similar fluff, but it's not a Binder. As far as your goals, I think a straight-up caster, perhaps bard-level, with spells available based on certain sacrifices. If the set-in-stone vestige packs aren't your style, have a larger number of smaller packs, each with a few similar spells and abilities and an appropriate cost, such as a behavioral restriction, ability burn, and perhaps gp/xp costs for the world-shaking stuff.
    It's a falcon. Wearing a Fedora. Your argument is irrelevant.
    Official Member of the No Cussing Club

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    nonsi's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010

    Default Re: Vestige-less Binder ?.......

    Quote Originally Posted by Gideon Falcon View Post
    As far as your goals, I think a straight-up caster, perhaps bard-level, with spells available based on certain sacrifices. If the set-in-stone vestige packs aren't your style, have a larger number of smaller packs, each with a few similar spells and abilities and an appropriate cost, such as a behavioral restriction, ability burn, and perhaps gp/xp costs for the world-shaking stuff.
    Yes, that's the general direction I'm aiming at. I just have no idea how to put the mechanics together.
    The milestones mentioned in the OP are general guidelines, but beyond that I'm kinda stuck.
    AFAIK, the idea of pact magic in RPG goes back at least to the early days of BECMI & 1e, but I know of no other concrete attempt to put it into mechanics other than the Binder class, so I don't have much to go on.

    One thing I can say, is that I don't want to replace vestiges with a larger number of smaller pacts, because that won't make the problem of forcing players to study vestiges in depth to be effective go away.
    That's why I'm aiming for working with several pools:
    1. Class features/benefits - fixed or dynamic with level prereqs.
    2. Daily/hourly powers (with level prereqs). Those can come from a fixed list to choose from daily or known spells/powers/abilities/benefits.
    3. Continual consequences (upon gaining 1st level and/or accumulated with level progression).
    4. Usage/daily/attunement consequences.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2010

    Default Re: Vestige-less Binder ?.......

    What would you suggest as possible "prices" from the patron?
    ""Jeez, this dress! i look like a dominatrix""
    (self-loathing): ""Actually , you look like a sorceress or something""
    ""Hey, no need to get cruel""

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    nonsi's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010

    Default Re: Vestige-less Binder ?.......

    Quote Originally Posted by faustin View Post
    What would you suggest as possible "prices" from the patron?
    I'm guessing it should have a lot to do with the nature, personality and agenda of the patron:
    - ability corruption
    - signs/markings
    - deformities
    - vulnerabilities
    - numeric penalties to combat stats
    - always detected as evil / all spells gain the evil descriptor
    - taboos
    - human sacrifice
    - OCD
    - phobia
    - assignments (soul collection, religious preaching, raising temples, eradicating a city/nation/culture...)

    This can basically go anywhere, but the various prices should be of relatively similar costs and not something that would make it problematic for the character to go about his business.

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Prince Zahn's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    my fireball can reach you
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Vestige-less Binder ?.......

    The way I see it, you probably don't have to reinvent the wheel. You could take the Warlock and tinker with it's rules a little. Here are some things you could try with the DM to make a Warlock into a vestige-less Binder:
    1. play with the Invocations known. Add spells from other spell lists as invocations, fiddle with durations of those invocations you want, and remove what doesn't fit. Be sure to pick spells and invocations that won't get on people's nerves if used too often. Ideally, you want your Binder to get an invocations list more appropriate to fulfill your vision and feel of a Binder.
    2. Rituals and costs: make a few house rules for the Warlock to give him that versatility from the binder's end of things: for example:
      • 1/day, if you perform a proper ritual, with the appropriate costs and demands, you get to swap some or all of your invocations for different ones. (Add rules and guidelines as needed) if you want to include a binding check like the Binder has, consider adapting it to the Warlock and using it to determine how many abilities you can swap out, or something.
      • Make your abilities and invocations more potent in certain ways by paying a cost and/or perform a dark ritual.
      • Add other house rules as needed to get what the cultist nature of the Binder supported by mechanics, if that's what you're looking for, and to provide the crunch you need to use the binder's fluff better.
    3. Fluff? you want pact magic to be dangerous and mysterious and with less bookkeeping involved, I get that. (At least superficially, not enough to agree). Dress your Warlock's theme to suit just that. Who said a Binder needs to fully comprehend the source of his power and know it's life's story? Who ever said the legends of such force(s) have to be true in your campaign? Who ever said all of your Bindlock's power needn't come with a price? This is called "reflavoring"; season to taste.
    4. What About Eldritch Blast? it's the Warlock's primary means of dealing combat damage, but you are not obligated to keep it if it's holding you back. You could try swapping it out with an ability similar to the Hexblade's Curse and dress it with Eldritch Essences/Blast shapes as normal.
    Last edited by Prince Zahn; 2015-08-01 at 08:31 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jette View Post
    If you write gibberish in common, even comprehend languages won't turn it into a sonnet.
    P.Z. - gamer; friend; royalty. 'Tis a pleasure.
    <<Cynthia the Witch by me. she's a nice gal, I promise!

    My player Resume, for potential DMs to read over.


    My Extended Signature

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    nonsi's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010

    Default Re: Vestige-less Binder ?.......

    .
    Quote Originally Posted by Prince Zahn View Post
    The way I see it, you probably don't have to reinvent the wheel. You could take the Warlock and tinker with it's rules a little.
    Seems to me like it's gonna be more than a little... but keep throwing ideas, each reply adds something to make a vague idea more concrete.
    I believe that eventually I'll make a class out of this.



    Quote Originally Posted by Prince Zahn View Post
    1. play with the Invocations known. Add spells from other spell lists as invocations, fiddle with durations of those invocations you want, and remove what doesn't fit. Be sure to pick spells and invocations that won't get on people's nerves if used too often. Ideally, you want your Binder to get an invocations list more appropriate to fulfill your vision and feel of a Binder.
    The name "Binder" raises the notion of summoning, so the Planar Binding line seems in order. I'm not sure I'm comfortable with those effects functioning as invocations (not exactly spells, but not invocations either).
    Same goes for various compulsion effects – for the same reason.
    Same goes for various teleportation (and teleport-counters) and attraction/repulsion powers.
    Various polymorph abilities also seem appropriate (you bind a form to yourself / a victim to a form).
    Grafting could also play a part in such class' repertoire.

    I can't imagine a class named "Binder" not having some combination of the above (better yet if all the above are expressed in some way).
    Basically anything that binds something to something (or unbinds) fits the bill.


    And given all the above, there are some things that a binder should be better at than full arcane casters, otherwise why take it?
    OTOH, I don't want it to touch T1.



    Quote Originally Posted by Prince Zahn View Post
    2. Rituals and costs: make a few house rules for the Warlock to give him that versatility from the binder's end of things: for example:
    • 1/day, if you perform a proper ritual, with the appropriate costs and demands, you get to swap some or all of your invocations for different ones. (Add rules and guidelines as needed) if you want to include a binding check like the Binder has, consider adapting it to the Warlock and using it to determine how many abilities you can swap out, or something.
    • Make your abilities and invocations more potent in certain ways by paying a cost and/or perform a dark ritual.
    • Add other house rules as needed to get what the cultist nature of the Binder supported by mechanics, if that's what you're looking for, and to provide the crunch you need to use the binder's fluff better.
    Right. Now it's just a matter of deciding what the powers will be, how they'll function, what requires a ritual and what not....... and what merits a cost (and what that cost will be) and what doesn't.
    (basically anything and everything that could possibly go into that class)



    Quote Originally Posted by Prince Zahn View Post
    3. Fluff? you want pact magic to be dangerous and mysterious and with less bookkeeping involved, I get that. (At least superficially, not enough to agree). Dress your Warlock's theme to suit just that. Who said a Binder needs to fully comprehend the source of his power and know it's life's story? Who ever said the legends of such force(s) have to be true in your campaign? Who ever said all of your Bindlock's power needn't come with a price? This is called "reflavoring"; season to taste.
    I never said a Binder needs to fully comprehend the source of his power.
    What I don't know is how to distribute those prices.



    Quote Originally Posted by Prince Zahn View Post
    4. What About Eldritch Blast? it's the Warlock's primary means of dealing combat damage, but you are not obligated to keep it if it's holding you back. You could try swapping it out with an ability similar to the Hexblade's Curse and dress it with Eldritch Essences/Blast shapes as normal.
    EB will not be among such class' scope of abilities – that's unquestionable and not open to debate.

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jun 2012

    Default Re: Vestige-less Binder ?.......

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    OTOH, I don't want it to touch T1.
    If a class has access to the conjuration effects you listed (calling and teleportation, to which I would add summoning), polymorph effects, and compulsion effects, you'd have trouble making it less than tier 2. Egregious, since the vestige binder's schtick is the ability to overshadow a different class each day. The warlock is only considered bad because there are few good invocations, but give it a spell-to-invocation mechanism and it is tier 2 (it HAS more versatility than the wilder, after all. Just less and weaker options). One of the few advantages of the warlock over the binder, of course, is the ability to use and create magic items.

    How do you plan to nerf the invocation binder to tier 3, if at all?
    Last edited by Network; 2015-08-01 at 07:09 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Razanir View Post
    "I am a human sixtyfourthling! Fear my minimal halfling ancestry!")
    Quote Originally Posted by Zweisteine View Post
    So the real question is, what is a Ling?

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Sep 2012

    Default Re: Vestige-less Binder ?.......

    I'm with Prince Zahn on this one, the Warlock is a good base to tweak from for this.

    If you want to get rid of Eldritch blast, you should probably replace it with some kind of alternative combat mechanism. EB exists so that a Warlock player who doesn't select offensive invocations will not find themselves without recourse when combat happens. Look at other folks' Invocation classes, both the official Dragonfire Adept, and several Homebrew projects have good examples of creating a comparable EB-Alternative for an Invoker. ErrantX's Ebon Initiate is a particularly polished and well-realized specimen.

    As to the Pact-Alternative, there are three questions that must be asked before proceeding:
    • What Tier(s) do you expect to be building your Binder class to be able to play within?"
    • How much custom content are you willing to create to represent the powers of this Binder?
    • What sort of relationship do you expect between the Power-Granter(s) and the Binder?

    The Tier expectation is important for determining the caliber of powers available, their quantity, frequency of use, how freely they may be exchanged, and similar balance concerns. This is the least interesting question, but it is important to bear in mind when selecting & creating powers for the class.

    The second question is, again, mostly a mechanical one. If you are willing to custom-tweak a bunch of abilities to round out their Invocation-Alternative list, you'll be able to get something much more consistent with your concept than if you want a formula that turns spells of level X into power-type Y, usable Z times/day. Not to mention that there are many spells (like the Polymorph & Planar Binding lines you mentioned) that are fantastic choices, fluff-wise, but are open to heavy abuse, require a lot of research to be used well (a problem you mentioned with the existing Pact Magic system) and are just so versatile that they can make a considerable number of similarly-costed powers obsolete.

    The answer to the final question should get us closer to the heart of the matter. Are these Binders operating on the same fluff as their Tome of Magic brethren? Do they make deals with singular, powerful entities that they must appease, like 4e Warlocks (or Clerics, if you think about it)? Do they subjugate and draw power from many (often unwilling) sources, as the Malconvokers do? Do they steal power covertly, ala Ur Priest? Is it a simple exchange of services between two equal parties who both have something the other desires? Basically, what constitutes a Pact, to you, for fluff purposes?

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    nonsi's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010

    Default Re: Vestige-less Binder ?.......

    .
    Quote Originally Posted by Network View Post
    If a class has access to the conjuration effects you listed (calling and teleportation, to which I would add summoning), polymorph effects, and compulsion effects, you'd have trouble making it less than tier 2. Egregious, since the vestige binder's schtick is the ability to overshadow a different class each day. The warlock is only considered bad because there are few good invocations, but give it a spell-to-invocation mechanism and it is tier 2 (it HAS more versatility than the wilder, after all. Just less and weaker options).
    I'm not kidding myself that the collection of powers I mentioned could ever drop below T2.
    The design goal in this case is low-mid T2. The various costs would encourage usage of powers/abilities upon necessity and discourage spamming.



    Quote Originally Posted by Network View Post
    One of the few advantages of the warlock over the binder, of course, is the ability to use and create magic items.
    I'd say a definite no on intrinsic association of a binder with magic items.
    I also consider it bad thematics to associate the Warlock with magic items. I guess it was necessary mechanically because the official Warlock is so feature-starved.



    Quote Originally Posted by Network View Post
    How do you plan to nerf the invocation binder to tier 3, if at all?
    I'm no sure if a vestige-less binder should even be based on invocations as a primary feature. Maybe secondary, like the DFA..... maybe not at all.

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jun 2012

    Default Re: Vestige-less Binder ?.......

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    I'm not kidding myself that the collection of powers I mentioned could ever drop below T2.
    The design goal in this case is low-mid T2. The various costs would encourage usage of powers/abilities upon necessity and discourage spamming.
    Ok, so what you want is close to a non-fixed list spontaneous caster, have I got it right?

    If this is the case, the class would probably require the character to pay a price to regain spell slots. I suggest separating the spell levels into tiers. This way, lower spells could be regained fairly simply, but higher spells would require more. Maybe also the requirement that the binder can only regain spells 1/day, even by trying many different methods.

    As an example, spells of 3rd level or lower could be regained in one of the following manners:
    • Animal sacrifice.
    • Vegetal sacrifice, if the patron allows it (a god of nature would. Most demon princes won't).
    • Libation with holy,unholy, axiomatic or anarchic water (depending on patron's alignment).
    • 1 point of Strength and Constitution burn, if you really can't afford anything else.

    Spells of 6th levels or lower (including those of 3rd level or lower) could be recovered with these methods:
    • Humanoid sacrifice, if the patron allows it.
    • Undead sacrifice (sacrifice of undead created by you), if the patron allows it.
    • Saving the life of a creature relevant to the patron's agenda (an animal for a nature god, an innocent for a good patron, a serial killer for a demon prince)
    • Charity to the poor, if the patron allows it.
    • Planting a tree, if the patron allows it.
    • 1 point of Wisdom and Charisma burn, if you really can't afford anything else (Strength and Constitution burn is a physical affliction; this one is mental).

    These methods should work with all spells:
    • Significant humanoid sacrifice (at least 6 HD of humanoids, or a person important to the binder).
    • Advancing the plot/developing your character in a way that makes your GM decide your patron likes you.
    • Gaining a vulnerability to an energy type (acid, cold, electricity, fire, sonic) you do not already have a resistance or immunity to, with the inability to gain one from a temporary effect, for the next 24 hours.
    • 1 point of Strength, Constitution, Wisdom and Charisma burn (you lose both your mind and your body... but at least you regain your spells!).


    To compensate for this, the binder is of course going to need many more low-level spell slots at a higher levels, so it can still dish out stuff when he can't pay the full price for his abilities. A high-level ability may allow him to select a warlock invocation every time he pays the price for his spells of 7th level or higher. The invocation would be retained for up to a week, or until he changes it for another. A single greater invocation that can be changed 1/day isn't going to unbalance the game at 16th level, but fluffwise it would be a good addition.
    Quote Originally Posted by Razanir View Post
    "I am a human sixtyfourthling! Fear my minimal halfling ancestry!")
    Quote Originally Posted by Zweisteine View Post
    So the real question is, what is a Ling?

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    nonsi's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010

    Default Re: Vestige-less Binder ?.......

    .
    Quote Originally Posted by Qoios View Post
    If you want to get rid of Eldritch blast, you should probably replace it with some kind of alternative combat mechanism.
    I'm so open to suggestions here.
    I now remember that I heard the Totemist (haven't explored incarnum) has the ability to enhance itself in combat. Maybe it's worth a peek.



    Quote Originally Posted by Qoios View Post
    EB exists so that a Warlock player who doesn't select offensive invocations will not find themselves without recourse when combat happens. Look at other folks' Invocation classes, both the official Dragonfire Adept, and several Homebrew projects have good examples of creating a comparable EB-Alternative for an Invoker. ErrantX's Ebon Initiate is a particularly polished and well-realized specimen.
    Yes, but in the end, Netherchannel is a kind of EB.
    Maybe some form of elemental damage could have its place in the class' features.



    Quote Originally Posted by Qoios View Post
    As to the Pact-Alternative, there are three questions that must be asked before proceeding:
    • What Tier(s) do you expect to be building your Binder class to be able to play within?"
    • How much custom content are you willing to create to represent the powers of this Binder?
    • What sort of relationship do you expect between the Power-Granter(s) and the Binder?
    I'm not sure what you mean by "be able to play within".
    Custom content – as little as possible. I'd prefer tweaking existing stuff and circumvent inventing new stuff as much as I can (keeping things close to home, ya'know).
    Relationship – flexible, I wouldn't want that aspect to hold back class design, or make gameflow cumbersome.



    Quote Originally Posted by Qoios View Post
    The Tier expectation is important for determining the caliber of powers available, their quantity, frequency of use, how freely they may be exchanged, and similar balance concerns. This is the least interesting question, but it is important to bear in mind when selecting & creating powers for the class.
    Low-mid T2 is good.
    Caliber – high
    Quantity – medium.
    Frequency – Medium for necessities & utility, low for NOVA. Continual for resistances/immunities.
    Exchange – to some degree – probably in the spirit of Expel Vestige feat.

    Those are all good questions. I don't see them as "least interesting" at all.

    I'll add Quality – partially reliable (for some of them anyway), but the player would have the option of playing with priority between power and reliability - in character build and/or in game.



    Quote Originally Posted by Qoios View Post
    The second question is, again, mostly a mechanical one. If you are willing to custom-tweak a bunch of abilities to round out their Invocation-Alternative list, you'll be able to get something much more consistent with your concept than if you want a formula that turns spells of level X into power-type Y, usable Z times/day.
    I'm not sure I understand why invocations - as a mechanical worktool - are inferior to spells.



    Quote Originally Posted by Qoios View Post
    Not to mention that there are many spells (like the Polymorph & Planar Binding lines you mentioned) that are fantastic choices, fluff-wise, but are open to heavy abuse, require a lot of research to be used well (a problem you mentioned with the existing Pact Magic system) and are just so versatile that they can make a considerable number of similarly-costed powers obsolete.
    That's where the ideas thrown in post #10 come into the equation – the mitigating factor.
    Let's not forget that arcane spellcasters also have access to such powers & effects.



    Quote Originally Posted by Qoios View Post
    The answer to the final question should get us closer to the heart of the matter. Are these Binders operating on the same fluff as their Tome of Magic brethren? Do they make deals with singular, powerful entities that they must appease, like 4e Warlocks (or Clerics, if you think about it)? Do they subjugate and draw power from many (often unwilling) sources, as the Malconvokers do? Do they steal power covertly, ala Ur Priest? Is it a simple exchange of services between two equal parties who both have something the other desires? Basically, what constitutes a Pact, to you, for fluff purposes?
    Subjugate and draw power from many (maybe unwilling) sources sounds right.
    Exchange of Services – this one will remain flexible for now. Needing to RP this on a daily basis can get really tiresome, so I don't want things to get there.
    I wish to disconnect the mechanics from settings as much as possible, so that this could be imported with minimum to no adaptations required.

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    nonsi's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010

    Default Re: Vestige-less Binder ?.......

    Quote Originally Posted by Network View Post
    Ok, so what you want is close to a non-fixed list spontaneous caster, have I got it right?

    If this is the case, the class would probably require the character to pay a price to regain spell slots. I suggest separating the spell levels into tiers. This way, lower spells could be regained fairly simply, but higher spells would require more. Maybe also the requirement that the binder can only regain spells 1/day, even by trying many different methods.

    As an example, spells of 3rd level or lower could be regained in one of the following manners:
    • Animal sacrifice.
    • Vegetal sacrifice, if the patron allows it (a god of nature would. Most demon princes won't).
    • Libation with holy,unholy, axiomatic or anarchic water (depending on patron's alignment).
    • 1 point of Strength and Constitution burn, if you really can't afford anything else.

    Spells of 6th levels or lower (including those of 3rd level or lower) could be recovered with these methods:
    • Humanoid sacrifice, if the patron allows it.
    • Undead sacrifice (sacrifice of undead created by you), if the patron allows it.
    • Saving the life of a creature relevant to the patron's agenda (an animal for a nature god, an innocent for a good patron, a serial killer for a demon prince)
    • Charity to the poor, if the patron allows it.
    • Planting a tree, if the patron allows it.
    • 1 point of Wisdom and Charisma burn, if you really can't afford anything else (Strength and Constitution burn is a physical affliction; this one is mental).

    These methods should work with all spells:
    • Significant humanoid sacrifice (at least 6 HD of humanoids, or a person important to the binder).
    • Advancing the plot/developing your character in a way that makes your GM decide your patron likes you.
    • Gaining a vulnerability to an energy type (acid, cold, electricity, fire, sonic) you do not already have a resistance or immunity to, with the inability to gain one from a temporary effect, for the next 24 hours.
    • 1 point of Strength, Constitution, Wisdom and Charisma burn (you lose both your mind and your body... but at least you regain your spells!).


    To compensate for this, the binder is of course going to need many more low-level spell slots at a higher levels, so it can still dish out stuff when he can't pay the full price for his abilities. A high-level ability may allow him to select a warlock invocation every time he pays the price for his spells of 7th level or higher. The invocation would be retained for up to a week, or until he changes it for another. A single greater invocation that can be changed 1/day isn't going to unbalance the game at 16th level, but fluffwise it would be a good addition.

    I don't want the Binder to just be another spellcaster.
    Maybe it could have a pool of invocation-like powers to choose from daily (with the effects taken directly from spells/invocations/mix), with spontaneous access to what you already payed for and some degree of swapping, but definitely not all day long like the Warlock.
    If you pay a price for your powers, you should definitely have more potential power than a warlock, but then I wouldn't want such magnitude of powers being available all the time.

    Organizing the prices categorically could work.
    Some of the suggestions above are good while others are problematic.
    Sacrifices & assignments take too much gametime energy from the player's POV. If you had a choice every time, this could work, but usually when you have to pay for something, nobody's giving you options - they take what suits them.

  19. - Top - End - #19
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Sep 2012

    Default Re: Vestige-less Binder ?.......

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    I'm so open to suggestions here.
    I now remember that I heard the Totemist (haven't explored incarnum) has the ability to enhance itself in combat. Maybe it's worth a peek.
    I don't claim to be an Incarnum Expert, but I have explored it for use in a few campaigns. Totemist is heavily based on Natural Attacks, usually emulating those of certain varieties of monsters. The idea has some merit, but I find that Natural Attack rules are not always the most intuitive or balanced form of combat mechanism, and most characters that use them abuse them, Totemist included, if memory serves.

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    Yes, but in the end, Netherchannel is a kind of EB.
    Maybe some form of elemental damage could have its place in the class' features.
    Continuing from the Totemist idea, I am reminded of something used in Xefas' Kathodos (Think Avatar: the Last Airbender), specifically the Exceptional Mythos "Elemental-Fisted Pugilist Style". In addition to a number of other effects, this ability allows a Kathodos to used Unarmed Strikes at range, while still counting them as Melee Attacks. This has the added perk that augmenting their ranged attacks and augmenting their melee attacks are one and the same. Something akin to this could work for a Binder that is no slouch at ranged or melee combat. But mostly it is a good example because it is outside the box, so to speak.

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    I'm not sure what you mean by "be able to play within".
    Just Tier-wise, who would be their equals? I'm not saying that unbalanced parties are impossible or bad, but what kinds of classes would make reasonable peers and rivals for the Neo-Binder? Low-mid T2 is your immediate answer, so I'll operate from that perspective.

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    Custom content – as little as possible. I'd prefer tweaking existing stuff and circumvent inventing new stuff as much as I can (keeping things close to home, ya'know).
    Relationship – flexible, I wouldn't want that aspect to hold back class design, or make gameflow cumbersome.
    ...
    Subjugate and draw power from many (maybe unwilling) sources sounds right.
    Exchange of Services – this one will remain flexible for now. Needing to RP this on a daily basis can get really tiresome, so I don't want things to get there.
    I wish to disconnect the mechanics from settings as much as possible, so that this could be imported with minimum to no adaptations required.
    Hmmm...Let me think on this, I may be able to come up with something, but I want to put my thoughts together properly, and present you something cohesive.

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    Low-mid T2 is good.
    Caliber – high
    Quantity – medium.
    Frequency – Medium for necessities & utility, low for NOVA. Continual for resistances/immunities.
    Exchange – to some degree – probably in the spirit of Expel Vestige feat.
    I'll add Quality – partially reliable (for some of them anyway), but the player would have the option of playing with priority between power and reliability - in character build and/or in game.
    Keeping to the Tier 2 realm while inserting an ability-exchange mechanism, or hyper-versatile abilities like Polymorph & Planar Binding will be somewhat difficult. The most defining barrier between a T2 class & a T1 class is options. T2 are roughly as powerful, but less versatile than T1.

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    Those are all good questions. I don't see them as "least interesting" at all.
    I suppose "of later interest" would've been more prudent phrasing. I find it difficult, if not impossible to go from mechanics to fluff, so fluff questions dominate my interest until they're defined enough that mechanics can be judged in the light of how well they represent said fluff.

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    I'm not sure I understand why invocations - as a mechanical worktool - are inferior to spells.
    I don't think they need to be. I just think that spells, as a mechanical worktool, are inconsistently balanced with one another, so we need to consider what spell effects are appropriate for where, rather than apply blanket solutions.

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    That's where the ideas thrown in post #10 come into the equation – the mitigating factor.
    I, personally, don't like "greater power, but at a terrible cost" as a mitigating factor style. The nature of Min-Maxing makes such things frustratingly difficult to balance. Level-inappropriate effects and abilities (usually) do not become level-appropriate due to drawbacks. This is very evident in the form of Flaws or Hellfire Warlock Shenanigans.

    If the Neo-Binder is suffering such a detriment for power, fairness dictates that the power should be greater than what someone of the same Tier can get without cost. However, if the cost is too low, min-maxing will mitigate most or all actual effect on the character's experiences, and functionally free power has been gained. If the cost is too high, the option will be ignored if at all possible. It is also difficult to create costs of this form that are truly & consistently fair, so one of the prior two scenarios is quite likely. I would try to put such mitigating factors in the form of opportunity costs, rather than actual character detriments.

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    Let's not forget that arcane spellcasters also have access to such powers & effects.
    Arcane spellcasters are also the most notoriously powerful spellcasting classes for a reason. And it has a lot to with those kinds of powers and effects. I'm not saying don't give them those things, but be careful, and be ready to tweak.

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    I don't want the Binder to just be another spellcaster.
    Maybe it could have a pool of invocation-like powers to choose from daily (with the effects taken directly from spells/invocations/mix), with spontaneous access to what you already payed for and some degree of swapping, but definitely not all day long like the Warlock.
    If you pay a price for your powers, you should definitely have more potential power than a warlock, but then I wouldn't want such magnitude of powers being available all the time.
    I am of the opinion that the majority of abilities for this class (and almost any class, I think) should be at-will. Uses/Day as a universal resource just encourages short work-days, and resource-impact maximization. This type of system discourages consistent performance, and encourages going Nova, which is the opposite of what you have declared desirable for this.

    Uses/Day and similar restrictions should be reserved for rarely-used trump cards. Major, high-impact abilities that you want a player to truly think about the appropriateness of using. Even then, I think there are more interesting costs for such abilities. I think that frequency of use & opportunity costs are a better restriction than number of uses, for the vast majority of abilities, though. I advocate At-Will as the default, with Recharge Times and/or Costs for any abilities that shouldn't be spammable (which is pretty consistent with the original Binder class, actually).

    All in all, I have a lot of ideas fluttering around in my mind about this. Give me a smidgen of time, and I'll try to get them to be something other than word-salad. Maybe word-stew? WORD-STIR-FRY!
    ...and with that, I must get some rest, and attack this anew in the morning.

  20. - Top - End - #20
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    nonsi's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010

    Default Re: Vestige-less Binder ?.......

    Quote Originally Posted by Qoios View Post
    I don't claim to be an Incarnum Expert, but I have explored it for use in a few campaigns. Totemist is heavily based on Natural Attacks, usually emulating those of certain varieties of monsters. The idea has some merit, but I find that Natural Attack rules are not always the most intuitive or balanced form of combat mechanism, and most characters that use them abuse them, Totemist included, if memory serves.
    . . .
    Continuing from the Totemist idea, I am reminded of something used in Xefas' Kathodos (Think Avatar: the Last Airbender), specifically the Exceptional Mythos "Elemental-Fisted Pugilist Style". In addition to a number of other effects, this ability allows a Kathodos to used Unarmed Strikes at range, while still counting them as Melee Attacks. This has the added perk that augmenting their ranged attacks and augmenting their melee attacks are one and the same. Something akin to this could work for a Binder that is no slouch at ranged or melee combat. But mostly it is a good example because it is outside the box, so to speak.

    Ok, this is where ideas started buzzing like crazy.
    I suddenly started thinking of elemental melee touch attacks, improving with level to being able to stretch your arms into pseudopods (increased reach instead of range) that deliver elemental damage, then into elemental whips that entangle your foes and knock them prone, with higher levels enabling you to stomp the ground for earthquakes, summon storms, raise tidal waves, ignite cities…. (AAAHHHH THE POWERRRRR)
    . . .
    Then I paused for a minute, shook my head, took a big breath and just thought: why not just give it the option of taking elemental form for say 1 round / level per day, broken down as the character sees fit (starting at a certain level, of course).



    Quote Originally Posted by Qoios View Post
    Hmmm...Let me think on this, I may be able to come up with something, but I want to put my thoughts together properly, and present you something cohesive.

    I'll be waiting eagerly, since my well is dry on that one.



    Quote Originally Posted by Qoios View Post
    Keeping to the Tier 2 realm while inserting an ability-exchange mechanism, or hyper-versatile abilities like Polymorph & Planar Binding will be somewhat difficult. The most defining barrier between a T2 class & a T1 class is options. T2 are roughly as powerful, but less versatile than T1.

    Maybe if I limit the exchange to 1 / day (just like with Expel Vestige) it'll be enough not to cross over to T1.



    Quote Originally Posted by Qoios View Post
    I suppose "of later interest" would've been more prudent phrasing. I find it difficult, if not impossible to go from mechanics to fluff, so fluff questions dominate my interest until they're defined enough that mechanics can be judged in the light of how well they represent said fluff.

    Definitely.



    Quote Originally Posted by Qoios View Post
    I don't think they need to be. I just think that spells, as a mechanical worktool, are inconsistently balanced with one another, so we need to consider what spell effects are appropriate for where, rather than apply blanket solutions.

    That's my dilemma – what to make available, when and at what frequency.
    I know that if I'll see something I'll know if it works or not.



    Quote Originally Posted by Qoios View Post
    I, personally, don't like "greater power, but at a terrible cost" as a mitigating factor style. The nature of Min-Maxing makes such things frustratingly difficult to balance. Level-inappropriate effects and abilities (usually) do not become level-appropriate due to drawbacks. This is very evident in the form of Flaws or Hellfire Warlock Shenanigans.

    Yeah, I already know that Flaws don't work.
    As for Hellfire Warlock – my problem with this PrC is not power abuse, but that it's almost mandatory if you wish to specialize as damage dealer (along with that 1-level Binder dip for Naberius vestige), so there's not really an option there.



    Quote Originally Posted by Qoios View Post
    If the Neo-Binder is suffering such a detriment for power, fairness dictates that the power should be greater than what someone of the same Tier can get without cost. However, if the cost is too low, min-maxing will mitigate most or all actual effect on the character's experiences, and functionally free power has been gained. If the cost is too high, the option will be ignored if at all possible. It is also difficult to create costs of this form that are truly & consistently fair, so one of the prior two scenarios is quite likely. I would try to put such mitigating factors in the form of opportunity costs, rather than actual character detriments.

    If I'd figured the balancing factor I'd have had a class by now.



    Quote Originally Posted by Qoios View Post
    Arcane spellcasters are also the most notoriously powerful spellcasting classes for a reason. And it has a lot to with those kinds of powers and effects. I'm not saying don't give them those things, but be careful, and be ready to tweak.

    Oh, I definitely know there's gonna be some tweaking going around.



    Quote Originally Posted by Qoios View Post
    I am of the opinion that the majority of abilities for this class (and almost any class, I think) should be at-will. Uses/Day as a universal resource just encourages short work-days, and resource-impact maximization. This type of system discourages consistent performance, and encourages going Nova, which is the opposite of what you have declared desirable for this.

    Uses/Day and similar restrictions should be reserved for rarely-used trump cards. Major, high-impact abilities that you want a player to truly think about the appropriateness of using. Even then, I think there are more interesting costs for such abilities. I think that frequency of use & opportunity costs are a better restriction than number of uses, for the vast majority of abilities, though. I advocate At-Will as the default, with Recharge Times and/or Costs for any abilities that shouldn't be spammable (which is pretty consistent with the original Binder class, actually).

    I hear you loud and clear.



    Quote Originally Posted by Qoios View Post
    All in all, I have a lot of ideas fluttering around in my mind about this. Give me a smidgen of time, and I'll try to get them to be something other than word-salad. Maybe word-stew? WORD-STIR-FRY!
    ...and with that, I must get some rest, and attack this anew in the morning.

    Definitely.
    Just keep 'em coming and we'll turn this mish mash of ideas into a class to be proud of.
    (did I mention you're a saint? )

  21. - Top - End - #21
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Sep 2012

    Default Re: Vestige-less Binder ?.......

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    Ok, this is where ideas started buzzing like crazy.
    I suddenly started thinking of elemental melee touch attacks, improving with level to being able to stretch your arms into pseudopods (increased reach instead of range) that deliver elemental damage, then into elemental whips that entangle your foes and knock them prone, with higher levels enabling you to stomp the ground for earthquakes, summon storms, raise tidal waves, ignite cities…. (AAAHHHH THE POWERRRRR)
    . . .
    Then I paused for a minute, shook my head, took a big breath and just thought: why not just give it the option of taking elemental form for say 1 round / level per day, broken down as the character sees fit (starting at a certain level, of course).
    The answer here should be obvious: Because the first idea is way cooler than Elemental Form for X Rounds/Day. That first idea is badass and can be evolved upon, and the second is just a little 'meh' in comparison, I think.

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    As for Hellfire Warlock – my problem with this PrC is not power abuse, but that it's almost mandatory if you wish to specialize as damage dealer (along with that 1-level Binder dip for Naberius vestige), so there's not really an option there.
    I was using Hellfire Warlock & Flaws as examples of bad design for power-at-a-price.

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    Just keep 'em coming and we'll turn this mish mash of ideas into a class to be proud of.
    (did I mention you're a saint? )
    Will do. In fact, I want to propose something, here. What would you think of brewing this concept as a Mythos class? I've been wanting to make a Mythos class for some time, and I feel like this could expand beautifully into one. If you have more specific intentions for it, that's fine. I just wanted to hear your thoughts on the possibility of making the Mythic Contractor with me.
    Last edited by Qoios; 2015-08-02 at 04:12 PM.

  22. - Top - End - #22
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    nonsi's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010

    Default Re: Vestige-less Binder ?.......

    Quote Originally Posted by Qoios View Post
    The answer here should be obvious: Because the first idea is way cooler than Elemental Form for X Rounds/Day. That first idea is badass and can be evolved upon, and the second is just a little 'meh' in comparison, I think.
    Yes, but the question is: Do I pursue the first idea? Wouldn't it make the class somewhat drift from the "Binder" theme? And there's always the chance that this might get out of hands real quickly, because as you saw, it's easy to get carried away.



    Quote Originally Posted by Qoios View Post
    I was using Hellfire Warlock & Flaws as examples of bad design for power-at-a-price.
    Oh, gotya.



    Quote Originally Posted by Qoios View Post
    Will do. In fact, I want to propose something, here. What would you think of brewing this concept as a Mythos class? I've been wanting to make a Mythos class for some time, and I feel like this could expand beautifully into one. If you have more specific intentions for it, that's fine. I just wanted to hear your thoughts on the possibility of making the Mythic Contractor with me.
    I have no quarrels with you pursuing that angle, but Mythos is not for me.
    Not that I have any agenda against Mythos, it's just that I find it hard to relate to mechanics where all classes are defined so similarly - by their BAB (usually 1:1), saves (usually all good) and skill points (usually 6+ / level)... and a bag-spilled pile of powers/bonuses whose nature is not even hinted in the class' table (MYTHOS & EXCELLENCIES).
    I know things go much deeper than that and I usually manage to understand the motivation behind Mythos projects, but that's the vibe I'm getting when viewing those classes.

    So you're welcome to pursue that angle if you feel like it, just don't forget to spread some breadcrumbs over here.
    I'd prefer it if you prioritize a non-Mythos solution, but I wouldn't want it to get in the way of your inspiration - plus being a total Mythos layman, I wouldn't be able to contribute much.

  23. - Top - End - #23
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Sep 2012

    Default Re: Vestige-less Binder ?.......

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    Yes, but the question is: Do I pursue the first idea? Wouldn't it make the class somewhat drift from the "Binder" theme? And there's always the chance that this might get out of hands real quickly, because as you saw, it's easy to get carried away.
    I didn't necessarily mean that you should pursue either of those options, actually. Thematically, they're a little too much Elementalist, not enough Binder. But once you figure out how you want to flavor their combat shtick, I think that a design more like the first, with interesting and dynamic abilities, is preferable to simply giving them elemental forms.

    Here's my idea for the Binder's basic combat shtick: Give the class a selection of bonus feats, special abilities & such that must be used to pursue mundane combat techniques. Then, give them the option to (using the same number of bonus feats & whatnot) make a second, distinct list from the first. They can swap between these two sets of combat styles. Then let them add a third or fourth style, maybe some options for temporarily blending styles or something as a later-on upgrade or something. In short, let their combat abilities be based on swapping out different sets of mundane training that they've gleaned from the minds of the spirits that they bind. Who said they could only gain spells & invocations?

    That's my best idea I've come up with so far. No EB, but nothing shoe-horning them into any powers that are so specific in flavor that they contradict the concept of a Binder.

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    I have no quarrels with you pursuing that angle, but Mythos is not for me.
    Not that I have any agenda against Mythos, it's just that I find it hard to relate to mechanics where all classes are defined so similarly - by their BAB (usually 1:1), saves (usually all good) and skill points (usually 6+ / level)... and a bag-spilled pile of powers/bonuses whose nature is not even hinted in the class' table (MYTHOS & EXCELLENCIES).
    I know things go much deeper than that and I usually manage to understand the motivation behind Mythos projects, but that's the vibe I'm getting when viewing those classes.

    So you're welcome to pursue that angle if you feel like it, just don't forget to spread some breadcrumbs over here.
    I'd prefer it if you prioritize a non-Mythos solution, but I wouldn't want it to get in the way of your inspiration - plus being a total Mythos layman, I wouldn't be able to contribute much.
    I really do want to make this a Mythos class. The Mythos Points concept (Which allows you to trade GP for a resource with which you can purchase more class features) just seems so appropriate, to me.

    As to your concerns that all Mythos classes are defined so similarly, I strongly disagree. They all have really solid chassis, but their abilities are extremely diverse and distinctive, to the point that any given class can produce characters that one would never guess were class-mates (so to speak). I think the highly similar chassis can be a bit misleading. It's all about the Mythos & Excellencies. They're much like spellcasters in that way.

    Either way, I fully intend to share any ideas I come up with that seem appropriate for the paths that both are developing towards. Hell, I may include a Mythos-line that grants modified access to Neo-Binder powers.

    And some more thoughts on the Neo-Binder's powers:
    I would give them thier own innate powers. Make them a bit of a Warlock/Binder hybrid. They have abilities that are truly their own, gained from class lists, and such. Then have alternate lists, based on the origins of the various spirits they can bind (healing and protective powers for Celestial Spirits, barely controlled, random abilites for Limbo-based Outsiders, etc.). In order to gain access to these alternative powers, they must temporarily lose access to some or all of their innate powers, trading them away to the same source from which they derive their new pact. Or, they can offer something else of appropriate value, if they don't like the idea of trading away pieces of their soul for others to play around with, even on a temporary basis.

    These are my initial concepts for a vestige-free Binder. What do you think?

  24. - Top - End - #24
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    nonsi's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010

    Default Re: Vestige-less Binder ?.......

    Quote Originally Posted by Qoios View Post
    I didn't necessarily mean that you should pursue either of those options, actually. Thematically, they're a little too much Elementalist, not enough Binder.
    Which is why I thought of elemental form - you bind the elemental form to you and take its shape for a certain period of time.
    Less elemental-fu, more binding.



    Quote Originally Posted by Qoios View Post
    But once you figure out how you want to flavor their combat shtick, I think that a design more like the first, with interesting and dynamic abilities, is preferable to simply giving them elemental forms.
    Problem is I haven't.
    When I see something that's "not", I'll immediately know that it's not.
    I'm just hoping to end up with a pool of "possible" to choose from.



    Quote Originally Posted by Qoios View Post
    Here's my idea for the Binder's basic combat shtick: Give the class a selection of bonus feats, special abilities & such that must be used to pursue mundane combat techniques. Then, give them the option to (using the same number of bonus feats & whatnot) make a second, distinct list from the first. They can swap between these two sets of combat styles. Then let them add a third or fourth style, maybe some options for temporarily blending styles or something as a later-on upgrade or something. In short, let their combat abilities be based on swapping out different sets of mundane training that they've gleaned from the minds of the spirits that they bind. Who said they could only gain spells & invocations?
    Swapable mundane combat styles is something I've encountered suggested for a Fighter fix.
    I feel this would drift from the "binder" theme even more than going elementalist.



    Quote Originally Posted by Qoios View Post
    That's my best idea I've come up with so far. No EB, but nothing shoe-horning them into any powers that are so specific in flavor that they contradict the concept of a Binder.
    That's the spirit of things. I just don't think it'll be achieved via Swapable combat styles.



    Quote Originally Posted by Qoios View Post
    I really do want to make this a Mythos class. The Mythos Points concept (Which allows you to trade GP for a resource with which you can purchase more class features) just seems so appropriate, to me.

    As to your concerns that all Mythos classes are defined so similarly, I strongly disagree. They all have really solid chassis, but their abilities are extremely diverse and distinctive, to the point that any given class can produce characters that one would never guess were class-mates (so to speak). I think the highly similar chassis can be a bit misleading. It's all about the Mythos & Excellencies. They're much like spellcasters in that way.
    As I said - You don't need to justify Mythos validity to me. I totally get that things go much deeper than that, but that's how Mythos feels to me. It's not gonna change because I get the concept rationally.



    Quote Originally Posted by Qoios View Post
    Either way, I fully intend to share any ideas I come up with that seem appropriate for the paths that both are developing towards. Hell, I may include a Mythos-line that grants modified access to Neo-Binder powers.
    Whatever floats your boat



    Quote Originally Posted by Qoios View Post
    And some more thoughts on the Neo-Binder's powers:
    I would give them thier own innate powers. Make them a bit of a Warlock/Binder hybrid. They have abilities that are truly their own, gained from class lists, and such.
    Sounds good so far, even if somewhat vague.



    Quote Originally Posted by Qoios View Post
    Then have alternate lists, based on the origins of the various spirits they can bind (healing and protective powers for Celestial Spirits, barely controlled, random abilites for Limbo-based Outsiders, etc.). In order to gain access to these alternative powers, they must temporarily lose access to some or all of their innate powers, trading them away to the same source from which they derive their new pact.
    Or we can adopt the Signs + Personality Aspects, but roll for those each time (or daily) anew from various pools (celestial / fay / infernal / fiendish / ethereal / astral / limbo...) - with DCs to overcome and the actual patron remaining mysterious (other than its origin & essence).



    Quote Originally Posted by Qoios View Post
    Or, they can offer something else of appropriate value...
    Sure. We just need to establish what constitutes "appropriate".

  25. - Top - End - #25
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Sep 2012

    Default Re: Vestige-less Binder ?.......

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    Which is why I thought of elemental form - you bind the elemental form to you and take its shape for a certain period of time. Less elemental-fu, more binding.
    I suppose I see your point, but that's all fluff. You can fluff the elementally related abilities you proposed as being gained by binding yourself to an elemental spirit, possibly put them on some kind of modal cooldown or something. But actual Elemental Form, as written, is a very inelegant, choppily-scaled, hyper-specific ability for it to be a class' main combat shtick. I don't like it. Strongly. Sorry.

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    Swapable mundane combat styles is something I've encountered suggested for a Fighter fix.
    I feel this would drift from the "binder" theme even more than going elementalist.
    Again, I feel like this is a fluff thing. It isn't you knowing how to fight so well, it is you binding to yourself the spirits of folks who do know how to fight. The Binder is all about diversity, so this feels like a good substitute for the typical evocation-style blasting. I understand you want to get something that feels "right", but you are creating a very limited set of valid choices when you ban mundane combat and Eldritch-Blast-esques. Try to be more flexible with your fluffing of things.

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    Or we can adopt the Signs + Personality Aspects, but roll for those each time (or daily) anew from various pools (celestial / fay / infernal / fiendish / ethereal / astral / limbo...) - with DCs to overcome and the actual patron remaining mysterious (other than its origin & essence).
    I like the idea of including Signs & Personality aspects that are associated with the type of spirits from which you've acquired abilities. The main thrust of what I was trying to say with this was that the abilities should be sort of like expansions upon your invocation list, based on the types of outsiders bound, rather than by specific individual, and using generalized lists from which you can swap and choose individual items, as opposed to the package-deal format of Vestiges.

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    Sounds good so far, even if somewhat vague.
    Sure. We just need to establish what constitutes "appropriate".
    Concept, then Crunch, my friend. We'll get more specific as we get into the grit of development. Right now, we're just doing design.

  26. - Top - End - #26
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    nonsi's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010

    Default Re: Vestige-less Binder ?.......

    Quote Originally Posted by Qoios View Post
    I suppose I see your point, but that's all fluff. You can fluff the elementally related abilities you proposed as being gained by binding yourself to an elemental spirit, possibly put them on some kind of modal cooldown or something. But actual Elemental Form, as written, is a very inelegant, choppily-scaled, hyper-specific ability for it to be a class' main combat shtick. I don't like it. Strongly. Sorry.


    Again, I feel like this is a fluff thing. It isn't you knowing how to fight so well, it is you binding to yourself the spirits of folks who do know how to fight. The Binder is all about diversity, so this feels like a good substitute for the typical evocation-style blasting. I understand you want to get something that feels "right", but you are creating a very limited set of valid choices when you ban mundane combat and Eldritch-Blast-esques. Try to be more flexible with your fluffing of things.


    I like the idea of including Signs & Personality aspects that are associated with the type of spirits from which you've acquired abilities. The main thrust of what I was trying to say with this was that the abilities should be sort of like expansions upon your invocation list, based on the types of outsiders bound, rather than by specific individual, and using generalized lists from which you can swap and choose individual items, as opposed to the package-deal format of Vestiges.


    Concept, then Crunch, my friend. We'll get more specific as we get into the grit of development. Right now, we're just doing design.

    1. Ok, since you mentioned "expansions upon your invocation list", I guess we should start by determining what's gonna be "your invocation list".
    What do all binders have access to and what's the usage frequency ?
    Are those spells, (Sp) abilities, invocations... what?
    My instinct says to go with a pool of (Sp) abilities, where you have access to so many of them in a given to-be-determined time quota.
    They should be batched in groups of powers, similar to or exactly the same as invocations.
    The basic list should be comprised of a must-have essentials set of effects.


    2. I'm also guessing that the official Binder's Soul Guardian is a solid basis to include among our class' features.
    I also see the Spirit Shaman's "Ghost Warrior" feature fitting in nicely.
    The official Binder starts with light armor and can advance all the way to heavy armor. Somehow, the image of a med/heavy armored binder doesn't slide for me, so I'm hoping to avoid such result (or even option).


    3. The more I think of it, the more it seems to me like my ravings from post #20 should serve as guideline for the class' available offensive tools, but definitely not something that's available all the time.
    OTOH, if someone could bind the form of an elemental of up to twice his level in HD, maybe it wouldn't be so meh.
    One thing I know for certain, is that I don't want anything to do with Pact Augmentations. It's messy as a game mechanic (I have no doubt that thinking of the costs consumes gametime) and anti-thematic.


    4. I'm ok with the result being a bit more powerful than the official Binder.


    5. We need to start defining the content of pools of Signs & Personality aspects, and maybe those don't need to scale (in the vein of "with experience you learn how to squeeze more out of the pacts you make").
    I'm guessing that a given pool of Signs & Personality aspects should come with a given pool of thematically appropriate powers and benefits (so you'd know that you call upon celestial forces for one collection of powers (healing & vigor maybe) and fey forces for another (probably enchantments & polymorph). The Gray Waste would probably be the source of necrotic powers).

    It probably wouldn't be a bad thing if each category behaved similar to vestiges, but instead of having dozens, you have less than 10 (I mean, how many could you add to celestial / fay / infernal / fiendish / ethereal / astral / limbo...... 4 x elemental maybe).
    Now, if we go for that angle you might say "wait a minute(!) we're throwing away vestiges for... vestiges".
    Well, in a manner if speaking, yes. But (and it's a very big but) it's much easier to organize your strategies in your mind (as a player) when things are so well organized by theme rather than practically random named vestiges with random aspects/personalities/symbols/requirements/powers. And you get to pic your gifts rather than have fixed combos forced upon you.

  27. - Top - End - #27
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Sep 2012

    Default Re: Vestige-less Binder ?.......

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    1. Ok, since you mentioned "expansions upon your invocation list", I guess we should start by determining what's gonna be "your invocation list".
    What do all binders have access to and what's the usage frequency ?
    Are those spells, (Sp) abilities, invocations... what?
    My instinct says to go with a pool of (Sp) abilities, where you have access to so many of them in a given to-be-determined time quota.
    They should be batched in groups of powers, similar to or exactly the same as invocations.
    The basic list should be comprised of a must-have essentials set of effects.
    I kinda took everything you're saying as (mostly) a given. A pool of (Sp) or (Su) abilities seemed like the obvious way to handle it. I'm of the opinion that they should all be at-will, with more powerful ones having recharge times, as it was with the original Binder class. Though, when you say "batched in groups", what do you mean? I don't think that having any given power should necessitate having any other given power. Otherwise, you have the vestiges-are-counter-intuitive problem all over again.

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    2. I'm also guessing that the official Binder's Soul Guardian is a solid basis to include among our class' features.
    I also see the Spirit Shaman's "Ghost Warrior" feature fitting in nicely.
    The official Binder starts with light armor and can advance all the way to heavy armor. Somehow, the image of a med/heavy armored binder doesn't slide for me, so I'm hoping to avoid such result (or even option).
    I, personally, would go with light armor, at the very most. I wouldn't even want to do that much armor, really, but I'm not strongly opposed to it. I also disagree somewhat about the Binder's Soul Guardian feature. Something similar, sure. But I don't feel like all spirits should give the same defensive perks like that. Let each spirit-type have a unique set of passive perks. As for the Spirit Shaman stuff, though: YES! I wholeheartedly agree. Maybe not exactly as printed, but their class features are very appropriate, and flavorful.

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    3. The more I think of it, the more it seems to me like my ravings from post #20 should serve as guideline for the class' available offensive tools, but definitely not something that's available all the time.
    OTOH, if someone could bind the form of an elemental of up to twice his level in HD, maybe it wouldn't be so meh.
    One thing I know for certain, is that I don't want anything to do with Pact Augmentations. It's messy as a game mechanic (I have no doubt that thinking of the costs consumes gametime) and anti-thematic.
    I agree, those "ravings" were great examples of some possible powers available to a Binder bound with Elemental spirits. Pact Augmentations are indeed clunky, and needless. Axe it.

    I absolutely do not want elemental form. Monsters are not designed for players to play as. If you want to create a custom set of player-appropriate Elemental-themed powers, and fluff them as being an "Elemental Form" of some sort, that's fine. But I will not be a part of anything that actually uses monster stat blocks for a player. That's as non-negotiable for me as your desire to avoid Eldritch Blast is for you. (I don't mean to be harsh, there, or anything. I just feel strongly about it.)

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    4. I'm ok with the result being a bit more powerful than the official Binder.
    That's virtually unavoidable, here.

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    5. We need to start defining the content of pools of Signs & Personality aspects, and maybe those don't need to scale (in the vein of "with experience you learn how to squeeze more out of the pacts you make").
    I'm guessing that a given pool of Signs & Personality aspects should come with a given pool of thematically appropriate powers and benefits (so you'd know that you call upon celestial forces for one collection of powers (healing & vigor maybe) and fey forces for another (probably enchantments & polymorph). The Gray Waste would probably be the source of necrotic powers).

    It probably wouldn't be a bad thing if each category behaved similar to vestiges, but instead of having dozens, you have less than 10 (I mean, how many could you add to celestial / fay / infernal / fiendish / ethereal / astral / limbo...... 4 x elemental maybe).
    Now, if we go for that angle you might say "wait a minute(!) we're throwing away vestiges for... vestiges".
    Well, in a manner if speaking, yes. But (and it's a very big but) it's much easier to organize your strategies in your mind (as a player) when things are so well organized by theme rather than practically random named vestiges with random aspects/personalities/symbols/requirements/powers. And you get to pic your gifts rather than have fixed combos forced upon you.
    This is exactly what I was leaning towards. It isn't so much a Vestige-less Binder, and more a Vestiges-as-Domains Binder.

    Can you help me out with something, on this little project? I'm definitely going to make a Mythic version of this concept, in addition to aiding you with your creation. That said, I'm struggling to find enough iconic characters to fill out the banner that goes at the top of Mythic class threads. Can you recommend any characters that fit for a Mythic Binder?

  28. - Top - End - #28
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    nonsi's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010

    Default Re: Vestige-less Binder ?.......

    Quote Originally Posted by Qoios View Post
    I kinda took everything you're saying as (mostly) a given. A pool of (Sp) or (Su) abilities seemed like the obvious way to handle it. I'm of the opinion that they should all be at-will, with more powerful ones having recharge times, as it was with the original Binder class.
    Fine.
    What will the at-will pool be comprised of?
    What will the recharge-times pool be comprised of?



    Quote Originally Posted by Qoios View Post
    Though, when you say "batched in groups", what do you mean? I don't think that having any given power should necessitate having any other given power. Otherwise, you have the vestiges-are-counter-intuitive problem all over again.
    As you said at the bottom: Vestiges-as-"Domains" Binder. Groups/"Domains" - different words, same notion (tomāto/tomăto, potāto/potăto).



    Quote Originally Posted by Qoios View Post
    I, personally, would go with light armor, at the very most. I wouldn't even want to do that much armor, really, but I'm not strongly opposed to it. I also disagree somewhat about the Binder's Soul Guardian feature. Something similar, sure. But I don't feel like all spirits should give the same defensive perks like that. Let each spirit-type have a unique set of passive perks. As for the Spirit Shaman stuff, though: YES! I wholeheartedly agree. Maybe not exactly as printed, but their class features are very appropriate, and flavorful.
    I tend to regard "Soul Guardian" as a really bad name for a valid feature.
    My angle is this: a binder, being exposed to visions and influence of the worst horrors and most terrible nightmares of creation, develops an unprecedentedly strong mind that's particularly hard to influence.
    Notice that every official binger gets those all the time - regardless of vestiges he has bound (down to zero).



    Quote Originally Posted by Qoios View Post
    I agree, those "ravings" were great examples of some possible powers available to a Binder bound with Elemental spirits.
    So maybe we can act upon them.



    Quote Originally Posted by Qoios View Post
    I absolutely do not want elemental form. Monsters are not designed for players to play as. If you want to create a custom set of player-appropriate Elemental-themed powers, and fluff them as being an "Elemental Form" of some sort, that's fine. But I will not be a part of anything that actually uses monster stat blocks for a player. That's as non-negotiable for me as your desire to avoid Eldritch Blast is for you. (I don't mean to be harsh, there, or anything. I just feel strongly about it.)
    Turn off the alarm, I'm in no way shape or form adamant about polymorphing into elemental(s). It was just an idea thrown that I was thematically ok with.



    Quote Originally Posted by Qoios View Post
    This is exactly what I was leaning towards. It isn't so much a Vestige-less Binder, and more a Vestiges-as-Domains Binder.
    So that's another piece of the puzzle put into place.



    Quote Originally Posted by Qoios View Post
    Can you help me out with something, on this little project? I'm definitely going to make a Mythic version of this concept, in addition to aiding you with your creation. That said, I'm struggling to find enough iconic characters to fill out the banner that goes at the top of Mythic class threads. Can you recommend any characters that fit for a Mythic Binder?
    The best I can think of when it comes to Mythos and binding is Pok้mon/Bakugan/Beyblade/Yu-Gi-Oh/Cardcaptor Sakura, but that's about it (a bit after my time, but I have kids so I'm somewhat in the loop )
    Stepping away from Mythos, the Belgariad-Malloreon series displayed a lot of Binder-esque powers & features.



    I believe we've reached a point where we have enough to go on to start fleshing out our "Spheres Binder" ("spheres" sound better to me than "domains" - as in "spheres of creation/existence").

  29. - Top - End - #29
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jun 2012

    Default Re: Vestige-less Binder ?.......

    Quote Originally Posted by Qoios View Post
    I absolutely do not want elemental form. Monsters are not designed for players to play as. If you want to create a custom set of player-appropriate Elemental-themed powers, and fluff them as being an "Elemental Form" of some sort, that's fine. But I will not be a part of anything that actually uses monster stat blocks for a player. That's as non-negotiable for me as your desire to avoid Eldritch Blast is for you. (I don't mean to be harsh, there, or anything. I just feel strongly about it.)
    Actually, monsters are totally designed for players to play as. For all purposes, the terms character and monster are interchangeable in 3.x.

    To Nonsi, I'd say the ability to shapeshift into an elemental of 2 HD/level is still broken for the same reason as polymorph is broken. For one thing, it would allow a 1st-level binder to shapeshift into a small taint elemental (CR 3). Assuming you are going for a tier 2 binder idea, the best is to allow only a limited list of forms based on level. Small air, earth, fire and water elemental would be available from level 1; medium elemental from level 3, and so on (based on a summon spell of a level available to a wizard of binder level +2). If you also make it a Polymorph subschool effect, it would be even more balanced than the Polymorph spell or an effect based on it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Qoios View Post
    Can you help me out with something, on this little project? I'm definitely going to make a Mythic version of this concept, in addition to aiding you with your creation. That said, I'm struggling to find enough iconic characters to fill out the banner that goes at the top of Mythic class threads. Can you recommend any characters that fit for a Mythic Binder?
    I'd like to say Faust, if you haven't decided on including him already. Also, Doctor Facilier (shadow binder), although I remember seeing him on a class's banner before.

    A deal for power is one of the biggest clich้s of fiction, really. You can probably find a couple fairy tale characters that did it. The serie Heroes has a character who learned swordfighting for a dragon, but the trope is deconstructed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Razanir View Post
    "I am a human sixtyfourthling! Fear my minimal halfling ancestry!")
    Quote Originally Posted by Zweisteine View Post
    So the real question is, what is a Ling?

  30. - Top - End - #30
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    nonsi's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010

    Default Re: Vestige-less Binder ?.......

    Quote Originally Posted by Network View Post
    Actually, monsters are totally designed for players to play as. For all purposes, the terms character and monster are interchangeable in 3.x.

    To Nonsi, I'd say the ability to shapeshift into an elemental of 2 HD/level is still broken for the same reason as polymorph is broken. For one thing, it would allow a 1st-level binder to shapeshift into a small taint elemental (CR 3). Assuming you are going for a tier 2 binder idea, the best is to allow only a limited list of forms based on level. Small air, earth, fire and water elemental would be available from level 1; medium elemental from level 3, and so on (based on a summon spell of a level available to a wizard of binder level +2). If you also make it a Polymorph subschool effect, it would be even more balanced than the Polymorph spell or an effect based on it.
    The primary motivation for thinking about elemental transformation was design simplicity. You get quite a lot for a handful of words, and everyone's gonna know exactly what you're talking about.
    Personally, I don't see elemental form as broken.
    Elementals are not particularly strong for their CR. Their main purpose is traversing locations that are otherwise difficult/impossible to cross. They also possess several defenses, but that doesn't make them broken.

    If I were to adopt this angle (right now the tendency is not), it would definitely not be from 1st level (5th bare minimum).

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •