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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Halfling in the Playground
     
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    Default Untraditional Bard

    I have this idea for a bard. it's pretty untraditional in terms of what bards normaly do and I was looking for some feedback or new information that could make him better. My DM is very linieat in character creations and even allows us to create new feats or weapons that aren't listed. question marks mean I haven't decided yet.

    Name: Christopher Laynard (Juk)
    Race: elf
    Alignment: choatic good
    Class: Bard, with prestige class of tempest (found in complete adventurer book)

    Stats (haven't rolled yet but by numbered by order of importance, 1 is the highest)

    Con:?
    STR?
    Dex:1
    INT:2
    WIS:?
    CHA:3

    feats: weapon finese, dual weapon fighting, improved dual weopon fighting, greater dual weapon fighting, flamethrowing (a skill I made up, more on this later), ?, ?, ?

    equiped with: Gun (not the gun gun but the chinese word for staff, it's a very special type of dual weapon, more on it later), light armor (preferably flame retardent), a small gord of ale (for flamethrowing, more on this later), and small soccer-ball-like bombs (more on this later)

    Skills: craft (bombs/incindery objects)(moe on this later), knowledge (explosives), perform (whistle), ?, ?, ?,

    spells: cure minor wounds, (a small quick fire spell of somekind),(need spells) ?, ?, ?,

    Songs: (need songs) ?, ?, ?

    Description: arsonist (do I realy have to describe this?), has evil sounding laugh when things go up in flame (still not evil, just loves fire)

    Explanations
    Flamthrowing = the user consumes a mouthful of alchohal and breaths it out as fire, counts as a breath attack, use limited by amount of alchohal available
    Gun = when used as two weapons the range is 5 meters, when used like a braudsword(two hands on weapon) range is that of a pole arm (10m - 5m), gives weilder + 2 on balance checks while not in battle, gives user a + 2 on jump checks, if the player rolls a natural 1, 2, 3, or 4 while using the gun the weapon breaks and is unusable

    possible explosive he can create: flash granades, smokescreens, noise cracker, foxfire lanterns, basic wick bombs, and his personal favorate soccer bombs (need work on name)

    soccer bombs are like the basic wick bombs except they have no wick, and they sport a thicker outer shell to discourage premature explosion, by impact. as the name suggest the soccer bombs is supposed to be kicked the opponent and then detonated later. (do I need a feat for this?)
    Last edited by TGWG; 2007-05-04 at 06:11 PM. Reason: forgot something

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    Default Re: Untraditional Bard

    My first thought is, what makes this guy a bard? I mean, you're correct in saying that his style is quite different from what people would usually do with a bard, so why does he have to (mechanically) be a bard at all? What does he need to be able to do that a bard can do, but (for instance) a fighter or monk with lots of ranks in Perform: Whistle could't do?

    Also, in your gun-staff description, I'm really hoping you mean Feet rather than Meters? Because a 5-meter range on a meleee weapon, extending to 10 meters in some cases, would be...wow. I don't think even most PIKES were that long.
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    Default Re: Untraditional Bard

    Yeah, Bard doesn't seem to fit him well..

    Look at the Battle Sorcerer varient in the SRD. It's more fitting.
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    Default Re: Untraditional Bard

    Quote Originally Posted by TGWG View Post
    I have this idea for a bard. it's pretty untraditional in terms of what bards normaly do and I was looking for some feedback or new information that could make him better. My DM is very linieat in character creations and even allows us to create new feats or weapons that aren't listed. question marks mean I haven't decided yet.

    Name: Christopher Laynard (Juk)
    Race: ?
    Alignment: choatic good
    Class: Bard, with prestige class of tempest (found in complete adventurer book)

    Stats (haven't rolled yet but by numbered by order of importance, 1 is the highest)

    Con:?
    STR?
    Dex:1
    INT:2
    WIS:?
    CHA:3

    feats: weapon finese, dual weapon fighting, improved dual weopon fighting, greater dual weapon fighting, flamethrowing (a skill I made up, more on this later), ?, ?, ?

    equiped with: Gun (not the gun gun but the chinese word for staff, it's a very special type of dual weapon, more on it later), light armor (preferably flame retardent), a small gord of ale (for flamethrowing, more on this later), and small soccer-ball-like bombs (more on this later)

    Skills: craft (bombs/incindery objects), knowledge (explosives), perform (whistle), ?, ?, ?,

    spells: cure minor wounds, (need spells) ?, ?, ?,

    Songs: (need songs) ?, ?, ?

    Description: arsonist (do I realy need to discribe this?), has evil sounding laugh when things go up in flame (still not evil, just loves fire)

    Explanations
    Flamthrowing = the user consumes a mouthful of alchohal and breaths it out as fire, counts as a breath attack, use limited by amount of alchohal available
    Gun = when used as two weapons the range is 5 meters, when used like a braudsword(two hands on weapon) range is that of a pole arm (10m - 5m), gives weilder + 2 on balance checks while not in battle, gives user a + 2 on jump checks, if the player rolls a natural 1, 2, 3, or 4 while using the gun the weapon breaks and is unusable
    So a Quarterstaff that can be used as a Longdspear? This is an exotic weapon at the least, right?

    So what aspects of the Bard are you using? Spells?

    Unless Spells:
    I mean, Binder works better as you can emulate someone who breaths fire or gains resistance.

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    Default Re: Untraditional Bard

    Sorry. I forgot to elaborate as to why this person is a bard. There are good reasons, it's not something completly random I assure you, and if there is a base class you feel is beter for this character, please tell me and try to elaborate.

    1. skill points, I need alot of skill points to cover all the skills I'm planing to learn and bards have the best skill point progression in the game (along with rogues)

    2. Bards also have a decent Hit point progression. While this bard is not blowing things up, he's on the front lines as a combo monkey. If I chose a spell caster as the base class he wouldn't be able to do this (except if I chose cleric).

    2. spells, some of the bombs this bards makes have no wicks intentionaly and can only be ignited from an outside source, so I need a fire spell that I can do the job, something small that I can used repeatedly (sugestions would be helpful).

    3. deplomacy, blowing people up is not satasfing enough for my bard. he has to trick the opponent in a open and friendly conversation to accept a gift *cough*concealedBomb*cough*, get out of the blast radius, and blow them up with an quick fire spell.

    4. songs, I don't know how to tie them in yet. I don't have a vast knowlegde of any bardic songs, but I know they can be useful to him. could one of you offer me a song you think might help

    so there you have it, and yes I did mean feet instead of meters, sorry for the confusion. I'll put a revised description of the gun staff below, tell me if it's overpowered.

    Gun staff = 1d8; critical 2d19/20; an excotic duel weapon; range, if used like two weapons range is 5 feet, if use like a poleaxe range is 10ft-5ft; gives user +2 balance check while not in battle; gives user +2 on jump checks if use is applecatable (like a pole vault); if the player rolls a natural 1, 2, or 3 while using the gun staff as a weapon or while using the gun staff to jump the gun staff breaks and is unable to be used any longer.
    Last edited by TGWG; 2007-05-04 at 06:04 PM. Reason: forgot some things

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    Default Re: Untraditional Bard

    Quote Originally Posted by TGWG View Post
    Sorry. I forgot to elaborate as to why this person is a bard. There are good reasons, it's not something completly random I assure you, and if there is a base class you feel is beter for this character, please tell me and try to elaborate.

    1. skill points, I need alot of skill points to cover all the skills I'm planing to learn and bards have the best skill point progression in the game (along with rogues)

    2. Bards also have a decent Hit point progression. While this bard is not blowing things up, he's on the front lines as a combo monkey. If I chose a spell caster as the base class he wouldn't be able to do this (except if I chose cleric).

    2. spells, some of the bombs this bards makes have no wicks intentionaly and can only be ignited from an outside source, so I need a fire spell that I can do the job, something small that I can used repeatedly (sugestions would be helpful).

    3. deplomacy, blowing people up is not satasfing enough for my bard. he has to trick the opponent in a open and friendly conversation to accept a gift *cough*concealedBomb*cough*, get out of the blast radius, and blow them up with an quick fire spell.

    4. songs, I don't know how to tie them in yet. I don't have a vast knowlegde of any bardic songs, but I know they can be useful to him. could one of you offer me a song you think might help

    so there you have it, and yes I did mean feet instead of meters, sorry for the confusion. I'll put a revised description of the gun staff below, tell me if it's overpowered.

    Gun staff = 1d8; critical 2d19/20; an excotic duel weapon; range, if used like two weapons range is 5 feet, if use like a poleaxe range is 10ft-5ft; gives user +2 balance check while not in battle; gives user +2 on jump checks if use is applecatable (like a pole vault); if the player rolls a natural 1, 2, or 3 while using the gun staff as a weapon or while using the gun staff to jump the gun staff breaks and is unable to be used any longer.

    Depending on the Vestiges: yes, Binder works.
    1) Amon can shoot line of fire breath once every 5 rounds. Range 10 feet and 1d6 damage per Effective binder level: so level 2 binder is 20 foot and 2d6 fire.

    2) Aym: Fire resist 10, Halo of Fire (deal 1d6 fire damage with melee touch+ enemies take 1d6 in melee combat that strikes at you).
    You can use the fire to light the fuses by touch.

    3) Naberuis: Disguise self at will, Silver Tongue (take 10 on diplomacy and bluff, take no penalty to use diplomacy as standard action), Persuasive words: (Command spell once every 5 rounds will negate), (extra skill equal to Con mod that require training to use)

    At least Binder 1/Bard (Or vice versa, Bard 1/Binder 1/Bard X). Aym for Fire resist would help you do what you wish.

    All the Bindings I listed are acheivable for 1st level (but remember one can be chosen per day so can't combine them).
    You need Level 8 Binder to get 2 forms at same time.

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    Orc in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Untraditional Bard

    Quote Originally Posted by TGWG View Post
    Gun staff = 1d8; critical 2d19/20; an excotic duel weapon; range, if used like two weapons range is 5 feet, if use like a poleaxe range is 10ft-5ft; gives user +2 balance check while not in battle; gives user +2 on jump checks if use is applecatable (like a pole vault); if the player rolls a natural 1, 2, or 3 while using the gun staff as a weapon or while using the gun staff to jump the gun staff breaks and is unable to be used any longer.

    Just a quick comment on the Gun-staff. Do you realize that this will break every 6-7 attacks, on average. Assuming you enter combat with it, that's probably about 1-2 of 'em per day full of encounters. At the least you're going to want to pour skill points into something that'll let you repair them or carry lots of them around.
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    Default Re: Untraditional Bard

    so mabye just breakage on a natural 1 or 2 on attack roles?, I just don't want it to be overpowered.
    Last edited by TGWG; 2007-05-04 at 07:36 PM.

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    Default Re: Untraditional Bard

    Okay, one or two additional thoughts.

    First of all, those binder ideas above are pretty groovy, although the class does have a pretty specific flavor to it.

    Bards don't really get that many fire spells that I know of. It's pretty much illusions, some healing, and mind-effecting stuff. So you might have to use a wand or use-activated item of some kind.

    That said, it seems like Rogue might be a better choice. You get MORE skill points, and your hit dice and attack bonus stay the same. If you take a good CHA you can be about as good at diplomacy, too.

    Again, I don't want to come off as opposed to this guy being a bard. He definitely could be. But in terms of what they do, bards are about inspiring people, fascinating foes, and adding some minor spellcasting/skillmonkey utility as needed. Is bardic music a big part of the concept of this guy? Does he go into battle inspiring his allies to fight better with his uncanny whistling? If so, go bard. If not, another class is probably better.

    Also, can you clarify what you mean by this:
    I don't have a vast knowlegde of any bardic songs, but I know they can be useful to him. could one of you offer me a song you think might help
    There aren't really...specific bardic songs in D&D. Unless you're asking us to suggest some tunes that would fit your guy's personality, I'm not sure what you mean. Bards get the Bardic Music ability, and it has certain effects. It doesn't make any difference what songs they're performing.

    Re: the gun-staff. Assuming you mean 1d8 damage, crits on a 19-20 for x2 damage, I don't see that being too unbalanced (as long as it's an exotic weapon, anyway). The skill bonuses are pretty situational, so they won't overpower the weapon either. I'd say reducing the break chance to natural 1 only is acceptable.
    Last edited by SpiderBrigade; 2007-05-04 at 07:59 PM.
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    Orc in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Untraditional Bard

    Quote Originally Posted by TGWG View Post
    diplomacy, blowing people up is not satasfing enough for my bard. he has to trick the opponent in a open and friendly conversation to accept a gift *cough*concealedBomb*cough*, get out of the blast radius, and blow them up with an quick fire spell.
    Not to nitpick, but what you're talking about doing will actually require a bluff check. Diplomacy isn't really going to help, here.....unless you are using it to calm down a hostile in order to bluff them.
    Last edited by Droodle; 2007-05-04 at 09:34 PM.

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    Default Re: Untraditional Bard

    Quote Originally Posted by SpiderBrigade View Post
    Bards don't really get that many fire spells that I know of. It's pretty much illusions, some healing, and mind-effecting stuff. So you might have to use a wand or use-activated item of some kind.
    I don't need anything major, just one small fire spell that can get the job done, because it's not the spell that's doing the damage, it's the bomb (still open for suggestion on any fire spell the bard can use). If this bard needs anything more powerful or with more area he'd just throw his bag of highly explosive equipment into the middle of the pack of enemies and get the party spell caster to cast fireball on that area causing a massive explosion that woud not only send nearby enemies flying but will also cause a massive fire many times greater in size and in damage than the sum of all the bombs + fireball done separately. (BTW, how would the damage and area of this method stack if you were DM, this question is open to everyone).

    Quote Originally Posted by SpiderBrigade View Post
    Re: the gun-staff. Assuming you mean 1d8 damage, crits on a 19-20 for x2 damage, I don't see that being too unbalanced (as long as it's an exotic weapon, anyway). The skill bonuses are pretty situational, so they won't overpower the weapon either. I'd say reducing the break chance to natural 1 only is acceptable.
    Thank you for your imput. if you don't mind, how much more can I get on the skill bonuses if they are only situational. I'm wondering how far I can go wth them before it becomes unbalanced.

    As for why this character has to be a bard, there is another underlying reason, but it's more for roleplaying purposes. You see I have a deap seeded belief that bards are the most unstable character class there is. Please let me explain. A "Bard" is, supposedly, a person trained in the musical arts (very sensitive), who travel from town to town - in a hostile land filled with malicious monsters - to play his tunes to a host of ungrateful and nearly penniless villagers - who only pay him with a unit of currency signifigantly less then the penny - and on his off time goes into dungeons - filled with monsters even nastier then those on the outside - where he sees more sudden death and wanton destruction than is ever healthy for one of sensitive complection, and in the end he is shortchanged by people that are supposedly his comrades. SOMETHING has to be wrong with them! For Elan of OOTS it's his unmovable naividity, but not all bards can be this lucky. I feel that they have to have some sort of release, some kind of "tendency" (to put it nicely) that might not fit in with the social norm but nethertheless helps them cope with the crazy world they live in. For Christopher lynard, it's arson.

    Which brings up something else, I've never come across a evil bard. does anyone else share this experience, and if you haven't please tell me how this evil bard was played.

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    Default Re: Untraditional Bard

    hey.. I'm not exactly sure how these things work.. but could you possibly make these explosives using an explosive ruin?? if the bard doesn't get that spell.. a team mate probably would.. you may be able to make things blow up using an explosive ruin as a 'wick'
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    Default Re: Untraditional Bard

    I have had Evil Bard NPCs, and would play one in the right game.

    Manipulators, deceivers, powers-behind-the-throne, had one in my Ravenloft setting who was a brilliant but abusive composer/director who did bad things to the orchestra...

    To me, Bards are less about the mechanics, and not necessarily lute-toting singers, as they are about the bigger picture, influence and such.

    Hope that makes sense?

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    Default Re: Untraditional Bard

    it does. Thank you, yet i'm still wondering why the majority of bards aren't evil or dealing with major physcolagical problems.

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    Default Re: Untraditional Bard

    Bards don't have any fire spells I can think of. I mean, if you can get your DM to accept like, flare, prestidigation, or something like that, and that's a strettttttttttch. Your bardic UMD would be your friend, but that seems like an expensive option. Actually, I'd consider shooting the bomb with a flaming arrow. Because you can shoot a man with a flaming arrow too, if situations change. That way you're still spending money, but a wand of slight friction or somesuch will be mostly useless except in the one situation.

    As for bardic songs, you get such gems that can be seen in the SRD. I'd type them out but I'm not really in the mood. Nothing personal, just a blah day.
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    Default Re: Untraditional Bard

    Warmage is the class you're looking for. None of this bard silliness.
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    Default Re: Untraditional Bard

    Or Rogue. Max out that Use Magic Device skill.

    Unless you're using Bard to meet the prereqs of some PrC, of course (Pyrokinesticist seems good).
    Last edited by Mewtarthio; 2007-05-05 at 08:08 PM.
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    Default Re: Untraditional Bard

    You could put ranks into Craft: Alchemy, which is actually what you need to make the bombs in the first place, and then make tinder sticks. No magic required! Rogue would work fine then- he could even be a Bard by trade only, just put a few ranks in perform.
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    Default Re: Untraditional Bard

    OK, you want:

    1. skill points
    2. Social Skills
    3. Hit points
    4. Spells
    5. BOOM!

    May I suggest a Dragonfire Adept. They get 4 Skill point per level off a good list, d8 hit points, excellent spell effects from their invocations, and an all day, every round breath weapon with some excellent effects and decent damage progression.

    Another option is to take the Draconic Breath feat from Races of the Dragon. It allows you to spontaneously convert an arcane spell slot into a breath weapon that deals 2d6 points of damage per spell slot. It requires one level of Sorcerer to take. But a Beguiler 1/Sorcerer 1/Beguiler X with this feat could fill all of your needs.

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