Let's Read: The Dungeons and Dragons 5e Monster Manual!

[M Placeholder]

Uh. The Blue Dracolich only has a +1 boost to CR not +4. Hell the Template does not even say you have to raise the Dragons challenge rating.

Yeah, that was a botch on my part. My bad.

[tsuyoshikentsu]

Allow me to share a fairly pointless niggle or pet-hate. That ship is quite clearly from the later days of the Age of Sail and resembles something from around the time of the Spanish Armada. It clearly has areas for cannon – and fairly advanced, slim cannon at that - in a game that assumes gunpowder is yet to be discovered. This is stupid and inconsistent.

*Clears throat*

So first of all, the galleon-style ships of the Spanish Armada came into being around the beginning of the Age of Sail, not the end of it--said Age was approximately the late 1500s to the mid 1800s. This ship is also likely an earlier model; note the lack of a realized forecastle as opposed to a simple rail (yet still lacking the forward castle of the older cog), the complete absence of any fore-and-aft sails foreward of the main (we can likely assume that the mizzen is lateen-rigged even though we can't see it), and the reliance on a simple spritsail in the headrig--not even a sprit topsail to be seen. This is likely either a square-rigged caravel or a galleon, neither of which would have been terribly out of place in the mid-late 1500s. If I recall correctly--and I certainly may not--these are generally the classes of ships seen in D&D lore. (It could also be a carrack, but the forecastle would be quite low for one. Then again, it's not like I expect D&D artists to follow that bit of nuance.)

While I agree that the gunports are a bit of an anachronism in the typical understanding of D&D level of technology (though there are some good alternate explanations above), their size doesn't necessarily indicate the presence of long guns. It's quite possible that the ports are simply designed for smaller guns of the era; they wouldn't be out of place for (British) four- or six-pounders, which ships of that era routinely carried. Either that or the builder pulled a Gustaph Adolphus and hideously overgunned his ship to the point where the dragon turtle isn't even the worst thing that's going to happen to it.

[twas_Brillig]

No, no, no, that's what I mean. Think about it: how do you actually make that happen--especially if the dracolich can innately plane shift? I could definitely get a session out of that alone, possibly even a string of them.

With a sufficiently broad reading of contingency (or a variant spell cooked up by an ancient dragon and a friendly cult), a dracolich could have plane shift set to trigger on its death to send its gem somewhere distant and inaccessible. (A vanilla contingency works as long as "you" for the dracolich follows its soul, at the time residing in the gem.) Its immunities are helpful here, since any meddlesome adventurers will need at least some prep before following it somewhere totally uninhabitable.

[Beleriphon]

[IMG]http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--gMPmkpSR--/c_fit,fl_progressive,q_80,w_636/lmxbpgp5n6pm6suunvqv.png[/IMG

I've always like that picture. It conjures up this bit of dialogue after the rudder "mysteriously" breaks:

"Why hello there fellow sea goers, I see you have a some what damaged vessel. I'd be happy to help tow you to the nearest port for a modest fee... no no its not a problem. If you'd prefer to drift aimlessly you until you all starve instead I completely understand and I'll just be on my way"

[JackPhoenix]

I've always like that picture. It conjures up this bit of dialogue after the rudder "mysteriously" breaks:

"Why hello there fellow sea goers, I see you have a some what damaged vessel. I'd be happy to help tow you to the nearest port for a modest fee... no no its not a problem. If you'd prefer to drift aimlessly you until you all starve instead I completely understand and I'll just be on my way"

Heh... "That's a nice ship you have here... these are dangerous waters, it would be a shame if something bad happened to her..."

[Regitnui]

Heh... "That's a nice ship you have here... these are dangerous waters, it would be a shame if something bad happened to her..."

Now I'm picturing a dragon turtle with a Chicago accent and a hilariously large suit.

[ShikomeKidoMi]

Now I'm picturing a dragon turtle with a Chicago accent and a hilariously large suit.

"Let's just call it buying a little insurance for your trip."

[tsuyoshikentsu]

You know what I love about this thread?

If you had asked me beforehand which dragon would engender the most discussion, I definitely wouldn't have picked the dragon turtle.

[Regitnui]

You know what I love about this thread?

If you had asked me beforehand which dragon would engender the most discussion, I definitely wouldn't have picked the dragon turtle.

Because true dragons are all over the forum and their templates aren't as interesting. Dragon turtles are still a big question mark of possibilities.

Speaking of, my campaign has dragon turtles guarding the underwater entrance to Khyber/the Underdark, with tritons settling fortresses on their backs. Merfolk provide the skills and food to support this army, and the tritons and dragon turtles stop the worst monstrosities from escaping the abyssal volcano that marks the passage.

[twas_Brillig]

Now I'm picturing a dragon turtle with a Chicago accent and a hilariously large suit.

A dragon turtle with a bunch of minions whose only job is to place a giant cigar into its mouth during negotiations.

[Beleriphon]

A dragon turtle with a bunch of minions whose only job is to place a giant cigar into its mouth during negotiations.

Ha! Maybe a giant everburning torch, because soggy cigars are no fun.

[M Placeholder]

Heh... "That's a nice ship you have here... these are dangerous waters, it would be a shame if something bad happened to her..."

Actually, in the FR setting, Priests of Umberlee offer to travel on sailing ships for a fee, so that The Bitch Queen won't whip up a storm and sink the ship. And I'm pretty sure there was something in one module guide for 2nd ed that actually had a port where ships needed to pay protection money to a Dragon Turtle.

[GorinichSerpant]

I currently want to make a campaign where the peasants are no good crooks, the nobles are no good crooks, the merchants are no good crooks, even the giant sea monsters and fluffy little bunnies are no good crooks. A world where every rock is trying to scam you. Where you can't trust a chair to not knock you out and leave you in a ditch without your kidneys and your wallet.

[Forum Explorer]

I appreciate that big solo monsters needs a means to not be taken out of the fight with a single bad roll on a save-or-suck, but I think Legendary Resistance is generally a rubbish band-aid to that problem, because it becomes about attrition ("I'll pop some Level one debuffs just to use up their LR") which strikes me as a boring use of an action or spell-slot.

That doesn't work by the way. The dragon has to fail the save first, and then they can choose to burn a Legendary Resistance use on it or not. Basically anything with Legendary Resistance is almost impossible to hit with a Save or Suck spell, because they have to fail it four times first.

[Envyus]

With a sufficiently broad reading of contingency (or a variant spell cooked up by an ancient dragon and a friendly cult), a dracolich could have plane shift set to trigger on its death to send its gem somewhere distant and inaccessible. (A vanilla contingency works as long as "you" for the dracolich follows its soul, at the time residing in the gem.) Its immunities are helpful here, since any meddlesome adventurers will need at least some prep before following it somewhere totally uninhabitable.

A better idea would simply be for it to plant it's gem at a Dragon Graveyard or something like that so it can take over a new body right after being destroyed rather then waiting for a another Dragon Corpse to come by.

[MasterMercury]

A better idea would simply be for it to plant it's gem at a Dragon Graveyard or something like that so it can take over a new body right after being destroyed rather then waiting for a another Dragon Corpse to come by.

Hmmmm. Dragon Graveyard. What a session that would be.

[Regitnui]

Hmmmm. Dragon Graveyard. What a session that would be.

There are at least two in Eberron; one on Khorvaire which is a fairly standard boneyard with dragons, and one in Xen'drik where the guardians remain 'alive' and can be beseeched for a resistance to one or more elements.

[ShikomeKidoMi]

That doesn't work by the way. The dragon has to fail the save first, and then they can choose to burn a Legendary Resistance use on it or not. Basically anything with Legendary Resistance is almost impossible to hit with a Save or Suck spell, because they have to fail it four times first.

It might work actually. They have to fail their save, but Legendary resistance doesn't say it makes them aware of what the effect that's targeting them actually does. Now, some spells might be obvious (Stinking Cloud comes to mind) but a lot of spells are just the caster waving hands around and chanting something until suddenly you're mind-controlled. Said monster might just feel a pressure at their temples and then throw it off with a force of will and have no idea whether they just resisted Fear or Dominate Monster (and thus, no idea whether they should have saved their Legendary Resistance for later). A paranoid monster isn't ever going to want to fail a save against an unknown spell. This is ultimately going to come down to your DM but the rules don't make the strategy impossible.

[Shining Wrath]

I have a tamed dragon turtle as a not-yet-encountered NPC in my world.
The elves of the Rainbow Lake have been feeding him for centuries. In return, he guards their capital city from aquatic invasions, above and below the surface. You do not want to put a large boat or barge into Rainbow Lake from anywhere but the Rainbow City shipwright's docks. Not unless your goal is all the toothpicks you'll ever need. A small, stealthy party might slip through with water breathing - he can't be everywhere and it's hard for him to notice small things. But rampaging hordes of hobgoblins? Snack time!

Anyway, I now need to consider his children and whether or not they are well-behaved. Thanks, guys!

[Regitnui]

I have a tamed dragon turtle as a not-yet-encountered NPC in my world.
The elves of the Rainbow Lake have been feeding him for centuries. In return, he guards their capital city from aquatic invasions, above and below the surface. You do not want to put a large boat or barge into Rainbow Lake from anywhere but the Rainbow City shipwright's docks. Not unless your goal is all the toothpicks you'll ever need. A small, stealthy party might slip through with water breathing - he can't be everywhere and it's hard for him to notice small things. But rampaging hordes of hobgoblins? Snack time!

Anyway, I now need to consider his children and whether or not they are well-behaved. Thanks, guys!

Find a Giant Turtle statblock, add a weak steam breath and you're away. Also, note that Big Daddy could probably crunch any of his rebellious kids, so the really independent probably flee downriver as soon as possible.

[thompur]

Why do I think that nobody wants to tackle the Drow? LOL

[Regitnui]

The Drow:
Dark skin elves ruled by the 80's nerd's perception of a vengeful ex-wife worshipping a creepy spider.

Next.

[M Placeholder]

Why do I think that nobody wants to tackle the Drow? LOL

Its actually the Drider next I think. Drow comes under E.

[tsuyoshikentsu]

Ugh. I've got the drider one all in my head, but I'm on mobile.

...Oh, hell, let's just get this over with.

Drider

It's a drow! It's a spider! No... it's a drider!

Seriously, I've been playing this game for like fifteen years and I just now got that drider comes from "drow spider."

Art

This is probably supposed to look intimidating, but if I didn't already know that this was supposed to be roughly centsur-sized I could easily assume it was a tarantula-sized spider with a tiny little body.

Hrrrrrm. Would you rather fight 100 spider sized drider or one drow sized drider?

Purpose and Tactics

Speaking of fighting (Wow! What a segue!), let's talk combat.

Unfortunately, the basic statblock is extremely unimpressive--it's literally just a drow with spider climb and web walking. Even with a decent AC and respectable if boring attacks, this isn't going to be a challenge for a 6th-level party. You basically have to run the spellcaster variant, which gets much more interesting as a miniboss with a couple of decent save-or-sucks.

On the other hand, I could definitely see these as good minions for a level 10ish party's encounter with a drow-flavored boss of some sort. I'd use the non-spellcaster here and have whatever the boss was add the spice, while the driders presented a simple tactical challenge.

Fluff

One of the really bad things about D&D's monster menagerie is the number of monsters that basically fill the exact same roles as each other. The drider is a pretty classic example: it's yet another twisted spider abomination of Lolth. That's a cool idea once or twice, but we're going to run into a bunch and frankly the others are more interesting to me.

Hooks

Krenroos Zaurret, the evil drow mastermind, was hard enough to kill on his own--but now Lolth has provided yim with some hideous bodyguards. Can the party find a way to beat wall-crawlers with a mage raining down spells on them?

The party has escaped the clutches of the drider witch for now... only to round a bend in the cavern and see a swarm of tiny versions if the beast! Which will they choose to face?

Verdict

A cookie-cutter monster that's fine as a nameless henchman but can't really hold up an encounter on its own.

[ShikomeKidoMi]

I think you could make a decent mid-boss out of a spellcasting Drider. The key is to go into their backstory a little. Remember that Driders exist because they failed an important test and are now worthless in the eyes of their goddess (though, frankly, that feels backwards, why would a spider goddess punish you by making you resemble one of her favored forms more). So, they would do anything to get her approval again, to be let back into society, to shed their monstrous forms. That gives a very strong motivation for a villain.

[Regitnui]

(though, frankly, that feels backwards, why would a spider goddess punish you by making you resemble one of her favored forms more).

Honestly, this is the reason why I dislike driders. I'd treat them as a separate creature, that happen to be worked into the drow's mythology. They are faintly offended by the depiction, and know they're in the favour of Lolth far more than the two-legged drow.

[ShikomeKidoMi]

If I was reworking their origins, I'd probably just make them blessed by Lolth rather than cursed. Though that does get rid of the aforementioned good hook for them.

[M Placeholder]

Honestly, this is the reason why I dislike driders. I'd treat them as a separate creature, that happen to be worked into the drow's mythology. They are faintly offended by the depiction, and know they're in the favour of Lolth far more than the two-legged drow.

In 4e Lore (which would be one of the few parts of 4e lore I would actually keep), the Drider is a blessing by Lolth. If a Drow takes the shape of a Drider without the Spider Queen's seal of approval, then the transformation is reversed.

Personally, I would give them a feature so they can turn back into Drow and back into Drider form once per rest, and new Lore that states once it was a punishment, but she had a change in her pitch black heart and decided it would from now on, be a reward.

[Shining Wrath]

I'm fine with the "fail the test, become a Drider" lore. It's sort of a "you are useless to me as a Drow - perhaps you will be more useful as a Drider" curse from an evil god. And why does a drow view this as a curse? For starters, no sexual organs (driders don't reproduce). No friends except other outcasts. Presumably an even more dangerous, short, and brutish life - the Underdark is not famous for its safety.

Driders should have a web attack. And there ought to be Drider variants for when an elite warrior fails a promotion test.

Anyway, it's an iconic monster, but not a particularly good one.

[tsuyoshikentsu]

Yeah, they REALLY need a web attack. Combined with their ability to hang out at range, it would make them a pretty scary threat.

And, y'know, they're SPIDERS.