Charging Paradox

[NullAshton]

I have a paradox. Say someone charges you with a reach weapon. Since it's a charge, they must stop at 10 feet and attack. Next say the person that's being charged has a readied action to move in 5 feet when someone goes within 10 feet of them...

The person who charges gets an AoO. But... what the heck happens after that? Suddenly, the person who charged no longer has a valid target, since his target is in the 5 foot 'safe zone'. But a charge has to have an attack at the end, otherwise it's not a charge...

My question is, what the heck happens? Since it's not a charge, the person would theoretically never have done the charge in the first place, but that means the readied action wouldn't have gone off. Which means that the person CAN do a charge, but then the readied action goes off... it's all really confusing, and not too sure how this would be resolved.

[kkortekaas]

Your blowing my mind man.

[bosssmiley]

There is no paradox. Apply the charge bonus (+2 TH IIRC) to the AOO. If the charge attack fails to hit then (and only then) does the character with the readied action to move into 5ft range dodge past the spearpoint.

Common sense: apply directly to the source of paradox.

[Beleriphon]

Guy charges, gets his AoO, and he's at -2 to defense until his next turn. Mr Readied Action gets his readied action.

If I were feeling magnanimous as a DM I'd let the charge get his normal charge attack as well.

[Matthew]

Same thing as if the action was prepared to 'move away', an Attack of opportunity and an interrupted Charge Action.

[Edit]: (Minute by Minute Ninjaing)

[Yechezkiel]

A charge stops where it needs to to complete the attack imo. Move up the character who had the readied action and have the charger get his charge attack (no AoO though, imo again).

[NullAshton]

So what happens if you ready a FREE action, namely 5 foot step? No AoO. Thus.... what happens?

Same thing happens if you move back. Stay at 60 feet away if they have a melee weapon, maximum charging distance. They charge, you step 5 feet away when they're 5 feet in to you and... they can't attack. Or get an AoO. Or basically anything.

[Jasdoif]

So what happens if you ready a FREE action, namely 5 foot step?

A 5-foot step is not a free action. That's why it's listed under miscellaneous actions instead of free actions in the combat section.

You can't ready a miscellaneous action.

[Piccamo]

So what happens if you ready a FREE action, namely 5 foot step? No AoO. Thus.... what happens?

Same thing happens if you move back. Stay at 60 feet away if they have a melee weapon, maximum charging distance. They charge, you step 5 feet away when they're 5 feet in to you and... they can't attack. Or get an AoO. Or basically anything.

You cannot ready free actions. All readied actions are standard actions, no matter what you are doing with it.

[NullAshton]

You cannot ready free actions. All readied actions are standard actions, no matter what you are doing with it.

Use a 5 foot step as a standard action then. So you don't provoke an AoO.

[Jasdoif]

You cannot ready free actions. All readied actions are standard actions, no matter what you are doing with it.

No, you can ready free actions, although readying itself takes a standard action on your turn.

You can ready a standard action, a move action, or a free action.

Of course, a 5-foot step still isn't a free action

[NEO|Phyte]

So ready some random action, and take the 5' step you are allowed to if you haven't already moved.

You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don’t otherwise move any distance during the round.

[Piccamo]

No, you can ready free actions, although readying itself takes a standard action on your turn.Of course, a 5-foot step still isn't a free action

Thats pretty much what I mean, but you worded it better than me

[Sundog]

Um, guys, where's the attack of opportunity coming from? The charged person only did a five foot step. That never provokes an AOO.

Now, according to the PHB, a readied action can interrupt another person's action, even in the middle of that action, as soon as the readied action's conditions apply. So, the instant the charger reaches ten feet away, the charged person takes his readied action and moves forward five feet. The charging person no longer has a valid target, and therefore does not attack.

It's still a charge, however, because the charge WAS valid when it was announced.

Yet another good reason not to charge someone with a readied action.

[Jasdoif]

So ready some random action, and take the 5' step you are allowed to if you haven't already moved.

Oh, I forgot, you can take a five-foot step as part of a readied action. So much for hoping for a simple resolution....

OK, time for a slightly more involved resolution then.

Then, any time before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it.

If a readied action precedes the action that triggers it....if you ready it for the person coming within 10 feet, your move will happen before their action: the charge. If your new position is still valid for their charge, they charge as normal.

It's the most sensical interpretation of the charger reacting to a five-foot step that I can think of. And sure beats the "readied action occurs before the triggering condition, so you make the five-foot step towards them when they're 15 feet away and end up right at their 10-foot reach for the charge" thought I was going to post.

[Sundog]

Oh, I forgot, you can take a five-foot step as part of a readied action. So much for hoping for a simple resolution....

OK, time for a slightly more involved resolution then.

If a readied action precedes the action that triggers it....if you ready it for the person coming within 10 feet, your move will happen before their action: the charge. If your new position is still valid for their charge, they charge as normal.

It's the most sensical interpretation of the charger reacting to a five-foot step that I can think of. And sure beats the "readied action occurs before the triggering condition, so you make the five-foot step towards them when they're 15 feet away and end up right at their 10-foot reach for the charge" thought I was going to post.

Uh-uh. If the triggering event was the charge, you'd be right. But the triggering event is the charger reaching ten feet. At that point, the charging character's action stops and the readied action happens. Once the readied action is concluded the charging character completes his action - except that the charging character now has no valid target to attack.

It doesn't make "real world" sense, bt it's quite clear in the RAW (PHB p160).

[Ikkitosen]

Um, guys, where's the attack of opportunity coming from? The charged person only did a five foot step. That never provokes an AOO.

Now, according to the PHB, a readied action can interrupt another person's action, even in the middle of that action, as soon as the readied action's conditions apply. So, the instant the charger reaches ten feet away, the charged person takes his readied action and moves forward five feet. The charging person no longer has a valid target, and therefore does not attack.

It's still a charge, however, because the charge WAS valid when it was announced.

Yet another good reason not to charge someone with a readied action.

This is how I see it too. Toro!

[Jasdoif]

It doesn't make "real world" sense, bt it's quite clear in the RAW (PHB p160).

I did say it was a "sensical" interpretation, that pretty much violates RAW in itself

I'm still fairly certain that the readied action would happen just before the 10-foot triggering condition, so you'd that that 5-foot step when you were 15 feet away...but then, you aren't even threatened from 15 feet away, so it makes more sense to just take a move action and cover a lot more ground away from the charger. And doing that, adjusting the charge like I recommended for the smaller five-step doesn't make as much sense.


But I'm not certain of this, so how you would allow the charge in this "extra-dimensional five-foot step towards the charger" situation be resolved? Simply a double move? Allow the player to make a bull rush as part of the charge instead? Or a move and an overrun? Maybe make an unarmed or gauntlet attack instead of using the reach weapon?

[Corolinth]

The readied action resolves first. That's what readied actions are for. That's why you ready actions in the first place. That's the difference between readying an action, and holding an action. He steps in, does not provoke an attack of opportunity (because 5-foot steps do not provoke attacks of opportunity), and then makes his melee attack.

Then the person who charged takes his attack with the reach weapon, only he can't now that his target is adjacent to him. This means he can't charge. Congratulations, you've just broken D&D. Here we have a prime example of what I'm babbling on about with D&D being written to assume the DM is a person and not a computer. He takes the -2 penalty to his AC, because he's recklessly charging. He makes the double-move towards his target. He does not get to make his attack, because his target was smart enough to get up inside of his reach. There's no need to contest this to see who strikes first. The person with the readied action has already won the initiative. That was the tactic. Wait for the opportune moment, step inside of reach, commence with beatdown. It's a perfectly viable tactic for anybody with an intelligence higher than that of a rock.

[daggaz]

Lol. When the rules get stupid, throw them out. Then apply liberal uses of common sense to the bleeding wound.

You want to interrupt a guys charge with a readied action, by stepping into the charge??! Fine. Go for it. He gets to roll his charge attack as normal. His charge was valid when he started it, for me, thats enough to complete it, regardless of the eventual distance because of your actions. If he hits, you take extra damage because you, foolishly, stepped into the charge. (Think about it for a second...) If he misses, hey presto! You deftly dodge the incoming spear/halberd/longsword whatever, and end up well within striking range for your next turn.

[Roderick_BR]

You are walking TOWARDS a guy charging? The charger attacks. If he misses, the readied one moves forward. You can't use an readied action against an action that is STILL happening. The charger started way back. If the readied action was to get out of the way, then it would work.

[Matthew]

Hmmn, no Readied Actions can interrupt.

Ready
The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun. Readying is a standard action. It does not provoke an attack of opportunity (though the action that you ready might do so).

Readying an Action
You can ready a standard action, a move action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, any time before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character’s activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.

You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don’t otherwise move any distance during the round.

Initiative Consequences of Readying
Your initiative result becomes the count on which you took the readied action. If you come to your next action and have not yet performed your readied action, you don’t get to take the readied action (though you can ready the same action again). If you take your readied action in the next round, before your regular turn comes up, your initiative count rises to that new point in the order of battle, and you do not get your regular action that round.

Distracting Spellcasters
You can ready an attack against a spellcaster with the trigger "if she starts casting a spell." If you damage the spellcaster, she may lose the spell she was trying to cast (as determined by her Concentration check result).

Readying to Counterspell
You may ready a counterspell against a spellcaster (often with the trigger "if she starts casting a spell"). In this case, when the spellcaster starts a spell, you get a chance to identify it with a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell level). If you do, and if you can cast that same spell (are able to cast it and have it prepared, if you prepare spells), you can cast the spell as a counterspell and automatically ruin the other spellcaster’s spell. Counterspelling works even if one spell is divine and the other arcane.

A spellcaster can use dispel magic to counterspell another spellcaster, but it doesn’t always work.

Readying a Weapon against a Charge
You can ready certain piercing weapons, setting them to receive charges. A readied weapon of this type deals double damage if you score a hit with it against a charging character.

Charge
Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action. However, it carries tight restrictions on how you can move.

Movement During a Charge
You must move before your attack, not after. You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent.

You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). Here’s what it means to have a clear path. First, you must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. (If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can’t charge.) Second, if any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can’t charge. (Helpless creatures don’t stop a charge.)

If you don’t have line of sight to the opponent at the start of your turn, you can’t charge that opponent.

You can’t take a 5-foot step in the same round as a charge.

If you are able to take only a standard action or a move action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed). You can’t use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action or move action on your turn.

Attacking on a Charge
After moving, you may make a single melee attack. You get a +2 bonus on the attack roll and take a -2 penalty to your AC until the start of your next turn.

A charging character gets a +2 bonus on the Strength check made to bull rush an opponent.

Even if you have extra attacks, such as from having a high enough base attack bonus or from using multiple weapons, you only get to make one attack during a charge.

Lances and Charge Attacks
A lance deals double damage if employed by a mounted character in a charge.

Weapons Readied against a Charge
Spears, tridents, and certain other piercing weapons deal double damage when readied (set) and used against a charging character.

Looks to me like it works, and as Sun Dog points out, there is no need for an Attack of Opportunity, as a 5' Step can be part of an Attack Action. You can think of it as 'Counter Charging', I suppose, since the option otherwise does not exist.

[Emperor Tippy]

And it isn't stupid to step into a charge. It is just about the smartest thing you can do.

The guy can't attack if you are within 5 feet of him and it is fairly difficult to move the lance around as you charge a person on horseback.

[Dragonmuncher]

I really don't see what's so nonsensical about this.

A hulking hairy fighter guy comes screaming at you with a glaive raised high over his shoulder. "RAAAAAAAAGH," he says. You coolly watch him charge towards you with a cocky tilt to your head. Suddenly, just as he is about to bring his weapon down to split your head, you dart inside of his reach and cut open his belly with your dagger.

See? Easy.

[SpiderBrigade]

yeah, easy to SAY.

There's this assumption across the thread that the charger is dumb and brutish, while the chargee is smart and dextrous. In which case yes, the tactic should work. The problem is, the way the rules model it there's no way for a (reach-weapon-wielding) charger to hit a prepared foe, ever.

For instance, a fighter level 20 mounted on a warhorse, with a lance, charging at a level 1 commoner peasant with 5 dexterity (due to disease) and no armor. Under normal circumstances, the peasant will be hit. But somehow, if he sees the fighter coming, he can dodge the tip of the lance at the last instant, step inside the fighter's reach, and try to pop him one with his puny fist?

[Jasdoif]

"The action occurs just before the action that triggers it." That's what the
rules say about a readied action. So if your readied action is to do something when someone comes within 10 feet of you, your action will take place before they come within 10 feet of you: when they're 15 feet away. So you step towards them...and save them the trouble of moving that extra square to attack you.

I really don't see what's so nonsensical about this.

A hulking hairy fighter guy comes screaming at you with a glaive raised high over his shoulder. "RAAAAAAAAGH," he says. You coolly watch him charge towards you with a cocky tilt to your head. Suddenly, just as he is about to bring his weapon down to split your head, you dart inside of his reach and cut open his belly with your dagger.

See? Easy.

What's nonsensical is that we're talking about a five-foot step.

A five-foot step involves slowly moving to an adjacent square throughout your turn, in a way that doesn't distract from what you're doing. That's why you can take a five-foot step when you're full-attacking, and why doing so doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity.

And you're suggesting that the resulting 10-inch-per-second movement can be considered "darting inside of his reach"?

[AtomicKitKat]

This is why I prefer 2nd edition's "Simultaneous Initiative" system. Overall, I agree with daggaz' post. Resolve the Charger's attack. If he hits, Readier fails. If he misses, Readier gets to move inside reach.

Who says you have to "raise the weapon over the head" when charging? If it's a long-handled hammer(Reach version of a Maul?) for example, you'd be holding it somewhere around hip level, as you build up the momentum for the swing. If it's a piercing weapon, it's usually pointed straight forwards, and not that hard to shift it a little to the left or right(remember, a small movement at the pivot{hands} translates to a large one at the point) if your opponent tries to avoid it.

[Cobra]

So if your readied action is to do something when someone comes within 10 feet of you, your action will take place before they come within 10 feet of you: when they're 15 feet away. So you step towards them...and save them the trouble of moving that extra square to attack you.

Try again. Look at how ready actions interrupt spell casting. By your logic, the readied person would attack before the spell was started, and thus there would be no concentration check.

It's not a paradox really. It just means that you can't expect to recklessly rush at somebody with a reach weapon who is prepared for you. You can still double move up to them.

[Diggorian]

I was checking the official FAQ for a resolution, but Jasdoif's reading is what I'd likely adjudicate myself.

"ARRRGH ... huh? OK." *splortch*

Try again. Look at how ready actions interrupt spell casting. By your logic, the readied person would attack before the spell was started, and thus there would be no concentration check.

That's how it works though. "I ready to slash him if he's gonna cast."The mage slips out some fur and a small glass rod, then winces with the blow. The second syllable of the verbal component is replaced with "OW!" if he fails the concentration check.

[Jasdoif]

Try again. Look at how ready actions interrupt spell casting. By your logic, the readied person would attack before the spell was started, and thus there would be no concentration check.

And by that logic, the charge attack would be completed before the readied action to step towards the charger takes place.

Special initiative actions are truly the quantum mechanics of the D20 system.


But come to think of it, I like the sound of "counter-attack after the charge". Thank you for bringing it up.