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    Dwarf in the Playground
     
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    Default A quick question about Paladins and Fear

    Are Paladins immune to the actual emotion fear, or just to spells, effects and the like which cause fear?

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    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: A quick question about Paladins and Fear

    They're immune to all fear effects. Emotions aren't a game mechanic, you can't have immunity to them.
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    Default Re: A quick question about Paladins and Fear

    Not according to the rules. I guess that would be up to the player and the DM as to whether real fear is a "fear effect" or not.

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    Default Re: A quick question about Paladins and Fear

    Like said, just fear effects.

    Though for me I've always thought it better for Paladins to get a big bonus to saving from fear at 2nd level and only become entirely immune at around 10th.

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    Default Re: A quick question about Paladins and Fear

    I've never known someone to roleplay a Paladin that felt fear. Though presumably, you could. It just doesn't fit into the archetype.

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    Default Re: A quick question about Paladins and Fear

    I've had people roleplay paladins that are very afraid or fearful but they don't let it stop them from doing whatever they need to do.

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    Default Re: A quick question about Paladins and Fear

    I've actually had a friend RP a very effective "coward" paladin. The rest of the party were kick-down-the-door, kill-the-monster-and-take-the-lewt types who rarely used any strategy beyond "don't get in the way of the wizards blasts." The Pally (of Wee Jas, the weirdest thing I had ever heard of, but technically legal) was a very resoned, cautious type, RPed good int and high wis well, and was always carful about the fights he picked with monsters.

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    Default Re: A quick question about Paladins and Fear

    Quote Originally Posted by Person_Man View Post
    I've never known someone to roleplay a Paladin that felt fear.
    Depends how you define fear.

    Personally, I can't see how a paladin can be effective without a certain type of fear. I mean, why would you fight evil, if you weren't afraid of its effects?
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    Default Re: A quick question about Paladins and Fear

    I believe the spirit of that little ability is that paladins do not suffer the negative effects of fear effects. They can still feel fear, but they don't allow their fears to prevent them from doing what needs to be done.

    My interpretation isn't completely RAW, but emotions aren't listed in the SRD. Besides, it isn't like I'm changing the game effects via my reading.
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    Default Re: A quick question about Paladins and Fear

    Paladins are immune to fear. That doesn't mean they don't reach conclusions they would otherwise, such as "That dragon could tear me in half. Maybe I should try diplomacy before screaming and charging."
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    Default Re: A quick question about Paladins and Fear

    Quote Originally Posted by Shhalahr Windrider View Post
    Depends how you define fear.

    Personally, I can't see how a paladin can be effective without a certain type of fear. I mean, why would you fight evil, if you weren't afraid of its effects?
    Because your god told you to fight them. Paladins might be the most straightforward class, other than barbarians (Thog kill things because they're there)

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    Default Re: A quick question about Paladins and Fear

    I've seen paladins that have quite alot of personal fear, but are either brave enough to just go ahead anyways or transmute the fear into something a bit more useful in combat, anger. The brave ones are just pretty damn panicky when it comes to certain things, for example, his village of his youth could have been plagued by giant spiders or something, so whenever he sees large arachnids in the the game, the character might act jumpy and disgusted at seeing the things, but that wouldnt stop him from attacking them though.
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    Default Re: A quick question about Paladins and Fear

    I like Tarkahn's interpretation. It's not that they aren't afraid, they just don't go running around in a panic or start cowering like a lesser man might when confronted with a fear effect. Instead, their divine resolve allows them to steel themselves and fight on regardless. I suppose that's also what happens when you pass a will save (minus the divine part, then it's just regular resolve), it's just the Pallys get to pass every time out of sheer absolute devotion to doing the work of their god/cause/whatever. Nothing can get them down so long as they have their faith.

    After all, Paladins are stereotypically brave, and isn't that what bravery is? Not the inability to feel fear, but the ability not to let fear get you down; to carry on thought the way may be fraught with peril and danger.

    Or is that stupidity? I get those two mixed up.
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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: A quick question about Paladins and Fear

    Hmm... if they were really immune to fear, would they be able to fear their own gods? 'cause, well, I can see it now:

    God: Paladin, I remove all traces of fear from you. Go out and fight evil!

    Paladin: Hey, sure thing, God. But first, now that I'm no longer afraid of you, I have a question... could you create a rock so large that you couldn't move it?

    God: <.< >.>

    God: (*divine smiting*)
    Last edited by Aquillion; 2007-05-10 at 10:08 AM.

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    Halfling in the Playground
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    Default Re: A quick question about Paladins and Fear

    This thread just gave me a great character idea. Win!
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    Default Re: A quick question about Paladins and Fear

    Ah yes, the good old omnipotence paradox. How well would that work in D&D, though? What if the Paladin worshipped a god with, say, creation in his portfolio but nothing about being all-powerfully strong.

    God: Paladin, I remove all traces of fear from you. Go out and fight evil!

    Paladin: Hey, sure thing, God. But first, now that I'm no longer afraid of you, I have a question... could you create a rock so large that you couldn't move it?

    God: Yes. It falls, you die.
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    Default Re: A quick question about Paladins and Fear

    Quote Originally Posted by Lkki Gallansbayne View Post
    After all, Paladins are stereotypically brave, and isn't that what bravery is? Not the inability to feel fear, but the ability not to let fear get you down; to carry on thought the way may be fraught with peril and danger.

    Or is that stupidity? I get those two mixed up.
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    Default Re: A quick question about Paladins and Fear

    Quote Originally Posted by Lkki Gallansbayne View Post
    Ah yes, the good old omnipotence paradox. How well would that work in D&D, though? What if the Paladin worshipped a god with, say, creation in his portfolio but nothing about being all-powerfully strong.

    God: Paladin, I remove all traces of fear from you. Go out and fight evil!

    Paladin: Hey, sure thing, God. But first, now that I'm no longer afraid of you, I have a question... could you create a rock so large that you couldn't move it?

    God: Yes. It falls, you die.
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    but i'll throw my two coppers in too.

    It only grants immunity to fear effects, which i would read as the mechanical effects of becoming overcome with fear. Moving away from mechanics being immune to fear is not going to make an effective champion.

    YES i'm level 2 no fear! that great wyrm red dragon needs a good smiting!

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    Default Re: A quick question about Paladins and Fear

    Quote Originally Posted by Person_Man View Post
    I've never known someone to roleplay a Paladin that felt fear. Though presumably, you could. It just doesn't fit into the archetype.
    I think it fits into the archtype just fine. Paladins are the epitome of courage, so of course they of course feel fear; if they weren't afraid, then doing what they do wouldn't be very courageous, would it? "Courage is the complement of fear. A man who is fearless cannot be courageous. (He is also a fool.)" - it's misquoted in someone's sig as I recall.

    mechanically: Fear effects don't work on a paladin.

    Roleplaying: You still feel the fear, but your faith and courage are strong enough so that it cannot shake your resolve; there is no hesitation, no weakness, no breaking of your spirit.

    Quote Originally Posted by brian c View Post
    Because your god told you to fight them. Paladins might be the most straightforward class, other than barbarians (Thog kill things because they're there)
    That would be a mindless obedient warrior, not a paladin...
    Last edited by Jayabalard; 2007-05-10 at 12:18 PM.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: A quick question about Paladins and Fear

    I wonder what would happen if you dominated a Paladin and commanded them to be afraid of you? Would that break the spell? Or give them a saving throw since you're asking them to do something against their nature?

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    Default Re: A quick question about Paladins and Fear

    Quote Originally Posted by Tokiko Mima View Post
    I wonder what would happen if you dominated a Paladin and commanded them to be afraid of you? Would that break the spell? Or give them a saving throw since you're asking them to do something against their nature?
    Dominate Person is a separate spell, no fear effect included per se. Also, it would be a definite bonus to the story, the mighty paladin who is forced to know fear for the first time. Any DM worth his salt would go for it, and hang the complaining rules lawyer.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: A quick question about Paladins and Fear

    How about a suggestion spell, then? Suggest that the Paladin is afraid of everything.

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    Default Re: A quick question about Paladins and Fear

    if you used dominate person or suggestion, sure, they would be afraid... but since they're a paladin they wouldn't give in to that fear.

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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: A quick question about Paladins and Fear

    Interesting side note about Paladins and fear, have any of you read Elizabeth Moon's Paksenarrion trilogy?

    Basically the main character is a Paladin who never feels fear until she has a spell cast on her. The healing to remove the spell also removes her inborn immunity to fear and then she pretty much loses all her Paladin abilities. Not because her god stops granting them, but because now whenever she holds a weapon and is forced to fight, even in a practice bout, she panics and freezes up. Of course she later learns to deal with fear and learns important lessons about the common man who has to deal with being afraid.


    Back to the discussion at hand. As far as the suggestion spell goes, I don't think any DM should really be allowed to dictate how a player roleplays a character. The DM can say that the Paladin is now afraid of everything, but that doesn't mean that the Paladin turns into a coward. The player can easily say that his character is a little more cautious than before but keeps steadfast in the faith that his God will protect him.
    Last edited by Snooder; 2007-05-10 at 05:37 PM.

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    Default Re: A quick question about Paladins and Fear

    Quote Originally Posted by Jayabalard View Post
    if you used dominate person or suggestion, sure, they would be afraid... but since they're a paladin they wouldn't give in to that fear.
    Well, the paradox of this is that the paladin rules doesn't say that they still feel fear and fight through it, they say:

    Quote Originally Posted by SRD
    Aura of Courage (Su)
    Beginning at 3rd level, a paladin is immune to fear (magical or otherwise). Each ally within 10 feet of her gains a +4 morale bonus on saving throws against fear effects.

    This ability functions while the paladin is conscious, but not if she is unconscious or dead.
    So any form of magical or non-magical fear, explicitly. So using magic to cause fear is something that they are technically immune to, even if it's not in the Necromancy [ Fear ], Enchantment (compulsion) or Illusion (phantasm) subschools.

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    Default Re: A quick question about Paladins and Fear

    "I must not fear.
    Fear is the mind-killer.
    Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
    I will face my fear.
    I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
    And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
    Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
    Only I will remain."
    -Bene Gesserit saying, Dune by Frank Herbert
    I think that this would make an excellent Paladin(or other resolute warrior) refrain. Plus I just like it as a saying. Paladin's aren't unaffected by fear(like in OotS), but instead overcome it.
    Last edited by MeklorIlavator; 2007-05-10 at 06:42 PM.

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    Last edited by ghost_warlock; 2007-05-10 at 07:10 PM.

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    Default Re: A quick question about Paladins and Fear

    Quote Originally Posted by Tokiko Mima View Post
    Well, the paradox of this is that the paladin rules doesn't say that they still feel fear and fight through it, they say:



    So any form of magical or non-magical fear, explicitly. So using magic to cause fear is something that they are technically immune to, even if it's not in the Necromancy [ Fear ], Enchantment (compulsion) or Illusion (phantasm) subschools.
    immune is a game mechanics term; it just means that it has no mechanical effect anymore. There's nothing in that that states that the paladin does not feel fear.

    I agree with MeklorIlavator, that Dune saying is a great reference point for a paladin; it gives a nice hint for how a paladin might deal with their fear in a strictly roleplay sense.

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    Default Re: A quick question about Paladins and Fear

    Quote Originally Posted by Jayabalard View Post
    That would be a mindless obedient warrior, not a paladin...
    There's a difference? *shot*

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    Default Re: A quick question about Paladins and Fear

    Courage is not the absence of fear but the ability to overcome it.

    Someone probably already said that.


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