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  1. - Top - End - #31
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Devil

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    Default Re: A quick question about Paladins and Fear

    The rules don't specifically say that a paladin is immune to all fear, but that seems to be the most straightforward interpretation. It seems that the biggest question is exactly how "immune" works. Is a 3rd+ level paladin immune to fear in the sense the sense that 11th+ level monks are immune to posion, or in the sense that elves are immune to sleep? I.e., is fear just something that doesn't effect a paladin, or is it something that a paladin doesn't ever experience? (Assuming that poison doesn't just cease to exist when it enters a monk's body, and that elves aren't really just sleepwalking but acting exactly as though they were awake. ) Does Aura of Courage just keep a 3rd-level paladin faced with the Tarrasque from immediately wetting herself and running away, or does it prevent her from even feeling afraid in the first place? That's obviously a pretty big difference, though the effects are much the same.

    Personally, I favor the interpretation that the paladin's fear simply no longer effects her, but doesn't cease to even exist. Mostly because courage seems easier to roleplay than total fearlessness. And, hey, the ability is called Aura of Courage. As others have pointed out, courage is not the absence of fear; courage just means not yielding to fear.

    There's still the matter that, either way, Scaricus, the supreme god of fear, can't scare away a paladin of third level of higher (...unless she's in an anti-magic field), but that's a seperate issue.
    Last edited by Devils_Advocate; 2007-05-10 at 08:39 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by icefractal View Post
    Abstract positioning, either fully "position doesn't matter" or "zones" or whatever, is fine. If the rules reflect that. Exact positioning, with a visual representation, is fine. But "exact positioning theoretically exists, and the rules interact with it, but it only exists in the GM's head and is communicated to the players a bit at a time" sucks for anything even a little complex. And I say this from a GM POV.

  2. - Top - End - #32
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: A quick question about Paladins and Fear

    Quote Originally Posted by Devils_Advocate View Post
    The rules don't specifically say that a paladin is immune to all fear, but that seems to be the most straightforward interpretation. It seems that the biggest question is exactly how "immune" works. Is a 3rd+ level paladin immune to fear in the sense the sense that 11th+ level monks are immune to posion, or in the sense that elves are immune to sleep? I.e., is fear just something that doesn't effect a paladin, or is it something that a paladin doesn't ever experience? (Assuming that poison doesn't just cease to exist when it enters a monk's body, and that elves aren't really just sleepwalking but acting exactly as though they were awake. ) Does Aura of Courage just keep a 3rd-level paladin faced with the Tarrasque from immediately wetting herself and running away, or does it prevent her from even feeling afraid in the first place? That's obviously a pretty big difference, though the effects are much the same.

    Personally, I favor the interpretation that the paladin's fear simply no longer effects her, but doesn't cease to even exist. Mostly because courage seems easier to roleplay than total fearlessness. And, hey, the ability is called Aura of Courage. As others have pointed out, courage is not the absence of fear; courage just means not yielding to fear.

    There's still the matter that, either way, Scaricus, the supreme god of fear, can't scare away a paladin of third level of higher (...unless she's in an anti-magic field), but that's a seperate issue.
    Well, unlike Monks immunity to poison or the elven immunity to the spell of sleep, the Aura of Courage is qualified as working against all forms of fear, specifically magical or otherwise. To me that means that whenever fear could affect a Paladin in any way, it just doesn't. This is irrespective of the source, be they a necromancers spell, a brawlers taunt, or the Paladin's own heart. How can you honestly claim to be 'feeling' fear if it doesn't and cannot affect you in the slightest? Is courage really as simple as the supression of fears effects?

    People are quoting Dune, but part of that saying means I think is rooted in the struggle not to be afraid, and that fear itself is the the largest threat we face. Is it really courageous for a Paladin to face danger utterly immune to the greatest part of the danger? Isn't a Fighter that faces down the same threat, without total immunity to fear even more courageous than a Paladin would be in the same situation?

  3. - Top - End - #33
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Matthew's Avatar

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    Default Re: A quick question about Paladins and Fear

    Quote Originally Posted by Tokiko Mima View Post
    Well, unlike Monks immunity to poison or the elven immunity to the spell of sleep, the Aura of Courage is qualified as working against all forms of fear, specifically magical or otherwise. To me that means that whenever fear could affect a Paladin in any way, it just doesn't. This is irrespective of the source, be they a necromancers spell, a brawlers taunt, or the Paladin's own heart. How can you honestly claim to be 'feeling' fear if it doesn't and cannot affect you in the slightest? Is courage really as simple as the supression of fears effects?
    Pretty much, it is. Fear usually prevents action, being able to act whilst still feeling Fear is overcoming fear. However, the Paladin is immune to the game effect Fear:
    Fear
    Spells, magic items, and certain monsters can affect characters with fear. If a fear effect allows a saving throw, it is a Will save (DC 10 + ½ fearsome creature’s racial HD + creature’s Cha modifier; the exact DC is given in the creature’s descriptive text). All fear attacks are mind-affecting fear effects. A failed roll usually means that the character is shaken, frightened, or panicked.

    Fear effects are cumulative. A shaken character who is made shaken again becomes frightened, and a shaken character who is made frightened becomes panicked instead. A frightened character who is made shaken or frightened becomes panicked instead.

    Fear Aura (Su)
    The use of this ability is a free action. The aura can freeze an opponent (such as a mummy’s despair) or function like the fear spell. Other effects are possible. A fear aura is an area effect. The descriptive text gives the size and kind of area.

    Fear Cones (Sp) and Rays (Su)
    These effects usually work like the fear spell.

    Frightful Presence (Ex)
    This special quality makes a creature’s very presence unsettling to foes. It takes effect automatically when the creature performs some sort of dramatic action (such as charging, attacking, or snarling). Opponents within range who witness the action may become frightened or shaken. Actions required to trigger the ability are given in the creature’s descriptive text. The range is usually 30 feet, and the duration is usually 5d6 rounds. This ability affects only opponents with fewer Hit Dice or levels than the creature has. An affected opponent can resist the effects with a successful Will save (DC 10 + ½ frightful creature’s racial HD + frightful creature’s Cha modifier; the exact DC is given in the creature’s descriptive text). An opponent that succeeds on the saving throw is immune to that same creature’s frightful presence for 24 hours.
    That's really all there is to it.
    Last edited by Matthew; 2007-05-27 at 02:09 PM.
    It is a joyful thing indeed to hold intimate converse with a man after one’s own heart, chatting without reserve about things of interest or the fleeting topics of the world; but such, alas, are few and far between.

    – Yoshida Kenko (1283-1350), Tsurezure-Gusa (1340)

  4. - Top - End - #34
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Renegade Paladin's Avatar

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    Default Re: A quick question about Paladins and Fear

    Quote Originally Posted by Tokiko Mima View Post
    Well, the paradox of this is that the paladin rules doesn't say that they still feel fear and fight through it, they say:
    Yeah, see the really big words in the quoted rule segment? That's where it says they feel fear. See the sig. However, no matter what you do short of an antimagic field, that fear will not overcome them and make them take penalties on attacks and so forth.
    "Courage is the complement of fear. A fearless man cannot be courageous. He is also a fool." -- Robert Heinlein


  5. - Top - End - #35
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Viscount Einstrauss's Avatar

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    Default Re: A quick question about Paladins and Fear

    Whoa. That makes paladins way overpowered. For as we know, fear leads to anger. If a paladin's immune to fear, he's thus immune to anger. Anger leads to hate, so a paladin is immune to feeling hatred as well. Hatred leads to suffering, and there's the crazy thing- the paladin is immune to suffering. Since the DM is the lord of all suffering in D&D, the paladin is immune to the DM. The DM controls the universe, and thus the paladin is immune to the universe. Being immune to the universe, the paladin cannot be harmed by anything inside of it. Thus, the paladin is completely and totally invincible thanks to Star Wars.

    George Lucas ruins yet something else for me.
    Do not meddle in the affairs of adventurers, for you are expendable and full of EXP.


    Overblown fantasy action/adventure/comedy/drama/spoof. Updates M/W/F

  6. - Top - End - #36
    Ogre in the Playground
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    May 2007

    Default Re: A quick question about Paladins and Fear

    I was looking at something the other day- Are undead paladins immune to turning? A high level cleric's turn attempt just kills you, sure, but does immunity to fear prevent you from cowering or panicking when someone flashes a holy symbol at you?

  7. - Top - End - #37
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Goblin

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    Default Re: A quick question about Paladins and Fear

    Turning isn't a Fear Effect, since Undead would be immune to those anyway. If you somehow had an undead Paladin, turning would effect them normally.

    The question would be what happens when the Paladin Turns Undead...
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  8. - Top - End - #38
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Devil

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    Default Re: A quick question about Paladins and Fear

    Quote Originally Posted by Tokiko Mima View Post
    Isn't a Fighter that faces down the same threat, without total immunity to fear even more courageous than a Paladin would be in the same situation?
    You're asking whether someone who does occasionally yield to fear is somehow more courageous than someone who never does?

    Uh, NO? You're basically asking whether a whole lot is more than infinity. It... uh, just isn't. This is no less true when applied to courage than anywhere else.
    Quote Originally Posted by icefractal View Post
    Abstract positioning, either fully "position doesn't matter" or "zones" or whatever, is fine. If the rules reflect that. Exact positioning, with a visual representation, is fine. But "exact positioning theoretically exists, and the rules interact with it, but it only exists in the GM's head and is communicated to the players a bit at a time" sucks for anything even a little complex. And I say this from a GM POV.

  9. - Top - End - #39
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Jacob Orlove's Avatar

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    Default Re: A quick question about Paladins and Fear

    No, he's actually asking whether it's more impressive to accomplish something by overcoming a challenge (fighter, paladins that feel fear), or by doing it without facing a challenge of any kind (paladins that do not even experience fear). Unless someone had a really worthwhile character concept, I'd lean very strongly towards the former interpretation, for just that reason.

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