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  1. - Top - End - #1321
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    Celestia's Avatar

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    Default Re: Will Save World for Gold

    Quote Originally Posted by Lizard Lord View Post
    Wouldn't the banging of a drum sound very different than the sort of banging they thought they heard? Also is Drummer Odie faceless or just facing away?
    Low pixel sprites can be ambiguous and difficult to decipher, but I'm old enough to have plenty of experience with ancient games. Based on the shape of the necklace outlining his head as well as the position and angle of his arms, he's definitely facing towards us.

    Edit: Or it could just be bad art, and he's facing away. *shrug*
    Last edited by Celestia; 2020-05-13 at 03:21 PM.
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  2. - Top - End - #1322
    Troll in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Will Save World for Gold

    And we are back to the discussion earlier where I now wonder if this is also just a nightmare and not something that actually happened.

  3. - Top - End - #1323
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    Default Re: Will Save World for Gold

    Has to be and if it not an nightmare then it very surprising.

  4. - Top - End - #1324
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    Default Re: Will Save World for Gold

    I'm going to go with "real" on this one. Another fake out at this point wouldn't make sense, narratively speaking. I'm guessing that the one they beat was either an illusion/weaker copy or an offspring.
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  5. - Top - End - #1325
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    Default Re: Will Save World for Gold

    I don't think it's a fake out either, although I do think some are probably coming since they're dealing with the nightmare spirit.

  6. - Top - End - #1326
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    Default Re: Will Save World for Gold


  7. - Top - End - #1327
    Troll in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Will Save World for Gold

    What the point of killing the clone? Is it petty revenge for getting them in the situation or just to be a jerk in general? I didn't think that they had any reason to actually care if Odie gets his own body or not.
    Last edited by Lizard Lord; 2020-06-01 at 04:39 PM.

  8. - Top - End - #1328
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    Default Re: Will Save World for Gold

    Quote Originally Posted by Lizard Lord View Post
    What the point of killing the clone? Is it petty revenge for getting them in the situation or just to be a jerk in general? I didn't think that they had any reason to actually care if Odie gets his own body or not.
    If it's even really happening. My first thought was that it's another nightmare. I hope that isn't true, but this is what I was talking about when I said the constant fake outs are bad for story tension.

  9. - Top - End - #1329
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    Flumph

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    Default Re: Will Save World for Gold

    Wow, that update was something else. And makes sense too.

  10. - Top - End - #1330
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    Default Re: Will Save World for Gold

    I have to be honest, the sword is doing a really poor job of making Ardon look sympathetic. And I say this as one of the few people that actually likes Ardon.

  11. - Top - End - #1331
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Will Save World for Gold

    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    I have to be honest, the sword is doing a really poor job of making Ardon look sympathetic. And I say this as one of the few people that actually likes Ardon.
    This is supposed to make him look sympathetic?
    Understandable maybe, but just because I can understand how and why Ardon turned out like he did doesn't change he's a evil jerk who hit the bottom end of the alignment pool and started digging.

    I mean, there are moments that show Ardon isn't completely awful, that would make him look sympathetic, but this?
    Not really.
    If anything it makes me suspicious of the funky letter opener if that's the sort of person it'd lend its power.
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  12. - Top - End - #1332
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    Default Re: Will Save World for Gold

    So, wait... rather than Ardon being forced to escape because of a threat to his life from his brother, his father, his mother etc; he chose to escape out of ego?

    Ardon released and drove wild the owlbears, killing hundreds in order to prevent his family from forcing him into an incredibly cushy life but as an NPC?

    Imagine a Princess; angry at the prospect of being married off to seal an alliance and living a life of passive decadence, she decides to escape... and in the process of her escape, kills hundreds.

    ...this is what is impressing the super-Paladin sword?

    I have faith in LoneStar, but these last few pages with the sword are testing that. It seems omniscient, and as a narrative device, very heavy-handed. If as the GM I pulled 'if you, paladin, want to keep the paladin sword, you have to play nice with the CE dickbag', they would be completely right to storm out of the game.

  13. - Top - End - #1333
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    Celestia's Avatar

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    Default Re: Will Save World for Gold

    Quote Originally Posted by Arkwright View Post
    It seems omniscient, ...
    Remember: They are currently in Ardon's head. All his memories are, in fact, available to peruse.
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  14. - Top - End - #1334
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celestia View Post
    Remember: They are currently in Ardon's head. All his memories are, in fact, available to peruse.
    Good catch, I'd forgotten that. Although the sword really comes off like it has known this forever.

  15. - Top - End - #1335
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    Default Re: Will Save World for Gold

    Quote Originally Posted by Arkwright View Post

    ...this is what is impressing the super-Paladin sword?
    I think the sword mainly cares about following strong convictions.

  16. - Top - End - #1336
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    Default Re: Will Save World for Gold

    Quote Originally Posted by Arkwright View Post
    Good catch, I'd forgotten that. Although the sword really comes off like it has known this forever.
    Could just be the way it talks. Or maybe it has known for a while because it read Ardon's mind while they were adventuring.
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  17. - Top - End - #1337
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    Default Re: Will Save World for Gold

    What is more worthy of an epic level paladin challenge than redeeming someone as awful as Ardon? Being his friend is just Step 1.

  18. - Top - End - #1338
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    Default Re: Will Save World for Gold

    we never actually firsthand saw Ardon's escape and massacre. It's possible it wasn't as bad as his family made it seem. kinda feel that might be unlikely, but it's possible.


    Honestly i saw Teal-eyed Ardon here and thought he made some kind of warlock pact and got green eyes. I forgot that it was Odi who had green eyes, not Ardon.

    Looking further though, Ardon's eyes do seem a lot darker blue then they do here. that might be something? Still, sounds like he made some Warlock-type pact to remove all of his levels or something.
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  19. - Top - End - #1339
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Will Save World for Gold

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    What is more worthy of an epic level paladin challenge than redeeming someone as awful as Ardon? Being his friend is just Step 1.
    Redeem him? The sword's perfectly fine with Ardon's Ardon-ness.
    It explicitly says it never gave him its powers because he never multiclassed into paladin.

    Speaking of, I just realized there's an certain irony to Ardon doing all this because he wanted to be more than a mere NPC.
    He still is.

    Or at least I think it's possible.
    It would explain why he doesn't follow the same rules as the other PCs.
    Huh. Maybe that's why he's like that. You know, besides being a soulless abomination that sacrificed everything for his egos sake.
    Deep down he suspects the possibility and lashes out against the world because of it.

    From that point of view he's kind of a tragic character.
    Still not very sympathetic though.
    "If it lives it can be killed.
    If it is dead it can be eaten."

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  20. - Top - End - #1340
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    Default Re: Will Save World for Gold

    don't think the idea was to ever make him sympathetic. just to give us some more detail on his origin.
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  21. - Top - End - #1341
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    Default Re: Will Save World for Gold

    I think that if the point was to make Ardon sympathetic the sword would have shown this sooner. Here the sword is simply clarifying what it is that Ardon wants. It isn't wealth and power for their sakes, like Ell had thought, but to be in control of his own destiny.

  22. - Top - End - #1342
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    Default Re: Will Save World for Gold

    I have no idea why so many people seem to think that giving a villain a backstory must automatically be an attempt to make the villain sympathetic. Sometimes, it's just about making the villain's motivations clearer.
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  23. - Top - End - #1343
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Celestia View Post
    I have no idea why so many people seem to think that giving a villain a backstory must automatically be an attempt to make the villain sympathetic. Sometimes, it's just about making the villain's motivations clearer.
    I mean the letter opener seems to want Ell to keep working with Ardon, so I figured it was trying for something along those lines.

    Maybe sympathetic isn't the right word, but what Avenger Prime's showing Ell (and the readers) doesn't really convince me she should work with Ardon instead of leaving him in a ditch.
    "If it lives it can be killed.
    If it is dead it can be eaten."

    Ronkong Coma "the way of the bookhunter" III Catacombium
    (Walter Moers "Die Stadt der träumenden Bücher")



  24. - Top - End - #1344
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    Default Re: Will Save World for Gold

    Quote Originally Posted by Kantaki View Post
    I mean the letter opener seems to want Ell to keep working with Ardon, so I figured it was trying for something along those lines.

    Maybe sympathetic isn't the right word, but what Avenger Prime's showing Ell (and the readers) doesn't really convince me she should work with Ardon instead of leaving him in a ditch.
    It's trying to get Ell to understand the qualities it's looking for, I think. Possibly going to lead to Ell deciding to give up the Avenger Prime, because there's a significant disconnect between their definitions of Paladin-hood. Ell thinks Paladins are Good People who Help People. Avenger Prime thinks they're Heroes that Attempt Impossible Challenges. Like trying to reform Ardon, or Ardon deciding to throw away his position of relative power, wealth, and security in order to start all over as a Level 1 PC just for the chance (not guarantee or even likelihood, but just the chance) that it would allow him to become more powerful and more relevant than he ever could be as an NPC.

    .. you would think 'challenging a massively overgrown and above your level Nightmare Spirit in a bid to rescue your party's souls' would be something AP approves of, but then I suppose that might be why it pulled her out of that fight and is talking to her now.

  25. - Top - End - #1345
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celestia View Post
    I have no idea why so many people seem to think that giving a villain a backstory must automatically be an attempt to make the villain sympathetic. Sometimes, it's just about making the villain's motivations clearer.
    The sword' s whole purpose in doing this is to convince El that Ardon isn't as bad as she thinks and is worth protecting. So yeah, we think it's an attempt to make him sympathetic because the story explicitly says so.

    It doesn't mean it's an attempt to make him sympathetic to the reader, but for El it certainly is.
    Last edited by Anteros; 2020-06-29 at 05:22 PM.

  26. - Top - End - #1346
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    Default Re: Will Save World for Gold

    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    The sword' s whole purpose in doing this is to convince El that Ardon isn't as bad as she thinks ...
    False. The sword explicitly said that its goal is to make El "see him as a person in need of help." That is a matter of empathy, not sympathy.
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  27. - Top - End - #1347
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celestia View Post
    False. The sword explicitly said that its goal is to make El "see him as a person in need of help." That is a matter of empathy, not sympathy.
    Be careful you don't set off an atomic explosion when you're splitting hairs that finely.

  28. - Top - End - #1348
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kantaki View Post
    I mean the letter opener seems to want Ell to keep working with Ardon, so I figured it was trying for something along those lines.

    Maybe sympathetic isn't the right word, but what Avenger Prime's showing Ell (and the readers) doesn't really convince me she should work with Ardon instead of leaving him in a ditch.
    I don't think the Avenger Prime is done yet (also it has trouble communicating and also has an alien mindset). This was just to counter Ell's understanding of what Ardon's motivation was.

  29. - Top - End - #1349
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    Default Re: Will Save World for Gold

    Well, this is a lot more convincing of an argument.

  30. - Top - End - #1350
    Troll in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Will Save World for Gold

    This may honestly be my favorite epilogue. It feels rather touching even as it subverts Ell's belief in this moment. The sword didn't choose her because of same grand fate it had in store for her, but nor was it just dumb luck that she just happened to draw it from the well. The sword simply saw her wish as one worth granting.
    Last edited by Lizard Lord; 2020-07-09 at 02:03 AM.

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