Gish

[Tor the Fallen]

I'm trying to build a gish, playable from level 1.
I'm thinking fighter2/wiz4/spellsword1/eldritch knightX, with the first three levels alternating ftr-wiz-ftr.

stats are 15, 15, 15, 15, 14, 22.
After age/race (dwarf) they are:
14
14
16
23
15
14

The character would be a gruff and well read dwarf, with an interest in magic. His fighting style would be mainly defensive, and when he used spells, they'd be simply to increase his effectiveness in combat/deal damage.

I was looking at the shield specialization/shield ward feats, but I'm really at a loss of what feats to take. I thought spiked chain + trip, but that doesn't really go with how I imagined the character.

An archivist work better, as I could cast in armor, and get even *more* skill points. Better HD, too. I don't really like the flavor, but if there's a full divine casting/full BAB prc class out there that has the appropriate flavor, that'd be cool.

Available Books: PHB, DMG, The Complete series, The Races Of series (classes and feats only, none of the non-standard races), BoED, possibly others with specific permission from DM. NO PSIONICS.
Alignment: Good or Neutral

Anyway;
Is there any way to make a good sword+board caster that isn't a cleric?

[Soepvork]

Anyway;
Is there any way to make a good sword+board caster that isn't a cleric?

A Duskblade (PHB2)?

[Tor the Fallen]

A Duskblade (PHB2)?

They can't learn new spells, though.
It'd be great if there was a full divine caster class w/ full bab out there.

[Soepvork]

They can't learn new spells, though.
It'd be great if there was a full divine caster class w/ full bab out there.

Just expand his spell list with spells that seem appriopiate, with your DM's approval. Shouldn't be too much of a problem, since he only knows a subset of it anyway.

[serow]

I'm trying to build a gish, playable from level 1.
I'm thinking fighter2/wiz3/spellsword1/eldritch knightX, with the first three levels alternating ftr-wiz-ftr.

Available Books: PHB, DMG, The Complete series, The Races Of series (classes and feats only, none of the non-standard races), BoED, possibly others with specific permission from DM. NO PSIONICS.

Just a few things:
1. Ftr2/Wiz3 can't qualify for Spellsword, or E.Knight.
2. Try to ask for Abjurant Champion, from Complete Mage.

[Tor the Fallen]

Abjurant champion doesn't really mesh with the character concept.

[ZeroNumerous]

Dude, the fluff can be changed however you wanna change it. Unless you mean ability-wise it doesn't fit, then that sucks. You could try taking Martial Stance and Martial Study feats from ToB and go into Jade Phoenix Mage.

Then you don't need fighter, since theres full BAB in JPM. Plus, JPM offers you a very fun, very nice capstone ability. Exploding.

Buff your party for a few rounds, tell them to move away, then charge the enemy and explode. 20d6 to everything in a rather large radius around you, and you reform in the same spot 1-6 rounds later.

[deadseashoals]

If you're a Dwarf, you could go into Runesmith (Races of Stone) for the ability to cast without any ASF.

[Fax Celestis]

Duskblade 5/Mage of the Arcane Order 2/Knight Phantom 3/Legacy Champion 10.

BAB: +16 (+16.5 if you use fractionals)
Duskblade Caster Level: 18

You'll have to spend a feat on Arcane Preparation in addition to the prereqs to get in, but that's not a big deal. Be a human, take Cooperative Magic and Arcane Preparation at first, Smiting Spell at third, and walk into MotAO for two levels. Take Eldritch Knight, Abjurant Champion, or Knight Phantom for three levels, so you can qualify for Legacy Champion. I personally prefer Knight Phantom, but any will work. Get yourself a legacy weapon (by founding it or finding it) and then advance into Legacy Champion, using it to boost MotAO with it's "+1 level of existing class features" ability. Using the Legacy Champion to advance MotAO--which will advance Duskblade casting--will net you a better BAB, skills, and HD than straight MotAO, but still give you access to all that nifty MotAO stuff (like Spellpool). You can get yourself up to effective MotAO level 10 this way.

[lord_khaine]

i would recomend taking 1 lv of fighter with the substitution feature in complete mage that allows you to cast in light armor, then grab the armored caster feat from complete arcane and get some mithril armor.

after that i would just go straight wizard until i could start taking lvs in eldrich knight.

[Droodle]

If you're a Dwarf, you could go into Runesmith (Races of Stone) for the ability to cast without any ASF.

Seconded. Runesmith would be even more useful than Abjurant Champion, since you'd be able to cast in full plate while wearing a shield with no chance of spell failure. On top of that, it's only a 5 level PRC. The downside is that it doesn't get a good BAB score, so If you're trying to Gish with it, you'll probably want to space out the levels a bit. Something like Fighter 1/Wizard 4/Runecaster 2/EK 2/Runecaster 3/EK 8. This will give you 18th level casting and save you the trouble of wasting any feats to cast in armor. Taking the substitution level isn't a bad idea, though.

[Arbitrarity]

You could use the classical swiftblade :D.

Course, you lose 4 CL, but it's a hella nice class.

Then again, doesn't fit that well either.

[Tor the Fallen]

Thanks for all the help guys.

[DSCrankshaw]

I definitely recommend Runesmith from Races of Stone. Easy class to get, too: you only need one level of fighter, one level of wizard, and a bunch of ranks in a craft skill, which both fighter and wizard treat as a class skill. You can qualify for it by sixth level, and get the main benefit with only one level, and qualify for Eldritch Knight by seventh if you've done Fighter 1/Wizard 4. Choose the racial substitution Dwarf Fighter for extra HP, as long as you're thinking Weapon Focus with any axe for your bonus feat.

If possible though, try to get your Con up to 18. Even with Runesmith and Eldritch Knight (which are each d6), you'll be feeling that lack of HP and could use all the help you can get.

[Omnipotent_One]

If you don't mind being a paladin, Paladin2/Sorcerer4/Spellsword1/AbjurantChampion5/EldritchKnight8 is pretty strong, netting you +18 BAB and 17 Caster levels, with charisma to saves.

If you'd rather go for a more traditional gish, simply replace the paladin levels with fighter levels and sorcerer levels with wizard levels. While this build doesn't net you cha to saves, it gives you access to 9th level spells, additional feats, and may work better with your backstory.

[TheOOB]

The battle sorcerer from UA is pretty good at being a gish. I belive they have d6 hp, light armor proficiency and casting, and some martial weapon proficienies. If you take arcane disiple(spelling?) with the war domain you can get divine power which will greatly increase your combat ability.

[Droodle]

The battle sorcerer from UA is pretty good at being a gish. I belive they have d6 hp, light armor proficiency and casting, and some martial weapon proficienies. If you take arcane disiple(spelling?) with the war domain you can get divine power which will greatly increase your combat ability.

D8, actually, and they get a one-handed martial weapon for free.

[DSCrankshaw]

Still got to say, as long as you're playing a dwarf gish, it's hard to go wrong with a level of Runesmith, and since Races of Stone is allowed, it sounds like it'd work perfectly.

But then, I don't have the books most of these others come out of. Where does Battle Sorcerer come from? I'm afraid I don't know what UA stands for.

[Jasdoif]

But then, I don't have the books most of these others come out of. Where does Battle Sorcerer come from? I'm afraid I don't know what UA stands for.

UA stands for Unearthed Arcana, a supplement filled with optional variants. The vast majority of it is open content, so you can see the Battle Sorcerer online.

[Fax Celestis]

Still got to say, as long as you're playing a dwarf gish, it's hard to go wrong with a level of Runesmith, and since Races of Stone is allowed, it sounds like it'd work perfectly.

But then, I don't have the books most of these others come out of. Where does Battle Sorcerer come from? I'm afraid I don't know what UA stands for.

Battle Sorceror appears in Unearthed Arcana (UA) and is available in the SRD (here) for free.

EDIT: I r teh 'd.

[Omnipotent_One]

Battle Sorcerer is kind of underpowered though, as far as gish go. You lose too many spells to be effective, and still don't reach 16 BAB, which is required to get that 4th attack.

If you want to be a dwarf, i'd suggest a build like Fighter2/Wizard4/runesmith2/spellsword1/abjurantchampion5/eldritchknight6, taking runesmith as soon as possible so you can cast in armor.

(and i know you said abjurant champion doesn't mesh with the character concept, but it gives you d10 hit dice, full BAB, and full caster levels. it's a really nice way to round out the gish build.)

You end up 17 BAB and 17 Caster levels, which is a nice balance between fighting and casting. Make sure you take the improved toughness feat for extra HP. Strap on some full plate and grab a falchion (or a greataxe, if you wanna be like Gimli), and you can play like a tank. Take practiced spellcaster to improve your spells and blast away.

[TheOOB]

Battle Sorcerer is kind of underpowered though, as far as gish go. You lose too many spells to be effective, and still don't reach 16 BAB, which is required to get that 4th attack.

I think your definition of underpowered and mine are vastly different. The battle sorcerer is still a full caster (9th level spells win D&D), and it's combat ability isn't bad by any means(decent hp, decent armor and fighting abilities, and a boatload of buffs and combat utility spells.)

Yes, a battle sorcerer doesn't have the magic power (and thus is not as powerful as) a normal sorcerer, and yes it doesn't naturally get a 4th attack(not that you hit often with -15 anyways), but that doesn't mean the class is underpowered. Less powerful then the sorcerer, a full arcane spellcaster and generally considered the 4th most powerful class in the PHB (behind wizard, cleric, and druid) doesn't make you underpowered. The battle sorcerer is still a full spellcaster, and by shear virtue of that fact better then virtually any non-caster class, and the vast majority of hybrid caster classes.

[Droodle]

Try out a Battle Sorcerer 7/Abjurant Champion 5/Battle Sorcerer 8. Sure, he loses a spell known and cast per spell level, but he gets unbroken caster progresson and he'll get his fourth attack, too.

[Omnipotent_One]

I think your definition of underpowered and mine are vastly different. The battle sorcerer is still a full caster (9th level spells win D&D), and it's combat ability isn't bad by any means(decent hp, decent armor and fighting abilities, and a boatload of buffs and combat utility spells.)

Yes, a battle sorcerer doesn't have the magic power (and thus is not as powerful as) a normal sorcerer, and yes it doesn't naturally get a 4th attack(not that you hit often with -15 anyways), but that doesn't mean the class is underpowered. Less powerful then the sorcerer, a full arcane spellcaster and generally considered the 4th most powerful class in the PHB (behind wizard, cleric, and druid) doesn't make you underpowered. The battle sorcerer is still a full spellcaster, and by shear virtue of that fact better then virtually any non-caster class, and the vast majority of hybrid caster classes.

Well, the sorcerer has never been considered one of the best casting classes, and is painfully limited in terms of spells known. The battle sorcerer limits the sorcerer even more, and the reduced number of spells known also means that the battle sorcerer gets spells a full two levels lower than the wizard. Medium BAB and d8 hit dice don't really make a caster a melee monster, and your limited number of spells will make filling the gish role a lot harder. I agree that the battle sorcerer is probably better than any of the non casting classes in the player's handbook, and i'm not saying that it's unplayable. But as a gish, there are certainly much better options, and I'd definitely say it's underpowered compared to most gish builds.

[Droodle]

Well, the sorcerer has never been considered one of the best casting classes, and is painfully limited in terms of spells known. The battle sorcerer limits the sorcerer even more, and the reduced number of spells known also means that the battle sorcerer gets spells a full two levels lower than the wizard.

Spells known aren't reduced below one. The Battle sorcerer gains new spell levels at the same rate as a standard sorcerer. If you've built him right, he'll be really dangerous. On the other hand, if you are trying to build, say a Swiftblade, you'd be better off with a straight sorcerer. Since you would probably take Abjurant Champion levels after Swiftblade 10, a sorcerer/swiftblade/abjurant champion only loses the ability to cast in light armor, a feat to meet the martial weapon pre-req, a point of BAB and 14 HP (on average) in exchange for an extra spell known and cast per level.

[Omnipotent_One]

Spells known aren't reduced below one. The Battle sorcerer gains new spell levels at the same rate as a standard sorcerer. If you've built him right, he'll be really dangerous.

Oh sorry, my bad there. Missed that part.

[Quietus]

Spells known aren't reduced below one. The Battle sorcerer gains new spell levels at the same rate as a standard sorcerer. If you've built him right, he'll be really dangerous. On the other hand, if you are trying to build, say a Swiftblade, you'd be better off with a straight sorcerer. Since you would probably take Abjurant Champion levels after Swiftblade 10, a sorcerer/swiftblade/abjurant champion only loses the ability to cast in light armor, a feat to meet the martial weapon pre-req, a point of BAB and 14 HP (on average) in exchange for an extra spell known and cast per level.

Might not even lose the feat, if you're an elf. Free longbow/longsword proficiency for everyone!

[Latronis]

But OP is determined on being a dwarf then the battle sorcerer can take a dwarven waraxe as the martial weapon and still use a shield. Considering gish uses magic to enhance there fighting prowess and was specifically mentioned as the original concept Battle Sorcerer still fits, even with Swiftblade imo.