A Monster for Every Season: Summer 2
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  1. - Top - End - #121
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Why aren't 95% of dwarven souls going to Hel anyway?

    Quote Originally Posted by EAN View Post
    The problem is the countermeasures that dwarven society would take to tackle that unfair reality.
    That is creating death worshiping culture with many duels,
    and little to no regard to dwarf's lives in battle or risky professions, as saving lives and reducing risks just increases the chances of dwarves lost to Hel.
    Judging by The Giant's posts, that is indeed what they've done.

  2. - Top - End - #122
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    Default Re: Why aren't 95% of dwarven souls going to Hel anyway?

    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    Judging by The Giant's posts, that is indeed what they've done.
    On the plus side, I have to point out that Dwarves' +2 racial Constitution bonus probably helps prevent some disease-related and accidental deaths.

  3. - Top - End - #123
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    Default Re: Why aren't 95% of dwarven souls going to Hel anyway?

    Quote Originally Posted by EAN View Post
    The problem is the countermeasures that dwarven society would take to tackle that unfair reality.
    That is creating death worshiping culture with many duels,
    and little to no regard to dwarf's lives in battle or risky professions, as saving lives and reducing risks just increases the chances of dwarves lost to Hel.
    But that's just your opinion of what they would do. My opinion of what they would do would be to devise a highly honor-bound culture where people are taught that noble sacrifices are the Dwarven Way so that most of them see such behavior as normal and fitting and, when faced with a dangerous situation, do their best to preserve others' lives from accidents that would allow Hel to claim their souls—knowing that by doing so, their own souls are safe even if their bodies perish.

    Which of these two opinions do you think the story will reflect?
    Rich Burlew


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  4. - Top - End - #124
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    RogueGirl

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    Default Re: Why aren't 95% of dwarven souls going to Hel anyway?

    Quote Originally Posted by SoC175 View Post
    Sorry to hear that, but that's hopefully not a typical experience in the US. I admit I didn't even think about those, since we simply do not have them here
    The Dwarven Lands are in the mountains. Mountains are formed by tectonic plates rubbing on each other. The same thing that causes earthquakes. We already saw one earthquake in a flashback, so we have plenty of reason to assume they're common there.



    Quote Originally Posted by SoC175 View Post
    Which leads to other issues with the sustainability of a population size under such circumstances
    Not really. According to the description in the Player's Handbook, Dwarves are adults at about 40, and can live to 400. Let's assume that they die honorably, on average, halfway through their natural lives at 200. That gives 160 years of adulthood in which to procreate. Way more than humans have ever had. Given how large we saw Durkon's extended family to be, and the generally casual attitude we've seen, through both Durkon and his flashbacks, towards discussing sexual topics, we have plenty of reason to assume Dwarves breed fairly prolifically. There's no reason to assume that, even dying more frequently than their natural lifespan would predispose them to, they couldn't achieve population growth, much less sustain a stable population.
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    Quote Originally Posted by golentan View Post
    I can assure you that cultural depictions of dating are a trap, never trust them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pluto! View Post
    I show him where the door is, crumple his character sheet, scatter his dice across the floor, jump on the table and shriek "Out! Out, UNCLEAN ONE!" before collapsing on the floor in tremors, gibbering unearthly blasphemies in a tongue long lost to human ears.

  5. - Top - End - #125
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    Default Re: Why aren't 95% of dwarven souls going to Hel anyway?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But that's just your opinion of what they would do. My opinion of what they would do would be to devise a highly honor-bound culture where people are taught that noble sacrifices are the Dwarven Way so that most of them see such behavior as normal and fitting and, when faced with a dangerous situation, do their best to preserve others' lives from accidents that would allow Hel to claim their souls—knowing that by doing so, their own souls are safe even if their bodies perish.

    Which of these two opinions do you think the story will reflect?
    The problem is a bit deeper than just me guessing how should the Dwarven Way be.

    For example, if a warrior interfere in a battle and save the lives of his comrades , he just denied them of honorable death and perhaps condemned them to damnation by future accident.

    Meaning, if death is more important than life to the dwarves , then why is it honorable to sacrifice one's life to preserve the lives of others?
    It is selfish!
    The dead one avoids Hel , while the saved living are still at risk , having been denied their own "honorable death".
    English is not my native tongue , so if i make a mistake, feel free to correct me.

  6. - Top - End - #126
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    Default Re: Why aren't 95% of dwarven souls going to Hel anyway?

    Quote Originally Posted by JustIgnoreMe View Post
    I could have got involved in every single one. Every. Single. One.
    But not in a way that puts you in much danger. If you stop by the site of an accident that happened an hour ago or help changing a tire or jumpstarting, that's not putting your life on the line
    Quote Originally Posted by JustIgnoreMe View Post
    Society does not require me to. OotS Dwarven Society clearly would.
    It doesn't? In Germany that would be against the law to pass by without helping.
    Quote Originally Posted by JustIgnoreMe View Post
    You... don't do a lot of driving, do you? I've driven for 20 years, and do maybe 5,000 miles a year. I know people who do four times that or even more. 2 accidents in that time is not even close to being "particularly unlucky".
    Two accidents or two dangerous accidents? The numbers of how many accidents and dangerous/deadly accidents happen are published year by year by various agencies.

    While one seems to hear of new traffic deaths every day in radion and on TV, and yes there are ~ a hundredsomething dying this way daily, these tragic few come down to 11.6 per 100,000 inhabitants or 7,6 per billion driven km.
    The vast majority of car accidents are minor bumps whith damaged fenders and the vast majority of injuries occuring this way are cured out in a few weeks. Only those very unlucky few have serious lasting or deadly injuries
    Quote Originally Posted by JustIgnoreMe View Post
    Firemen risk their lives in every burning building. Paramedics risk their lives at every roadside crash. If I followed the ambulance or the fire engine and got involved, there would be a serious risk of my death, and not due to my lack of training.
    The vast majority of firemen and paramedics and cops make it to retirement. There is a certain danger involved and way too many die during duty, but again even among this group that's luckily not a threatingly large percentage for these groups as a whole (or we would have even less willing to do these jobs).

    Following any ambulance would most of the time end you at sites already closed down by the police were the extrication medical care is done in relative safety. Yes, there the horror cases of the next drunken/speeding/careless driver crashing right into the previous accident site while the cops and paramedics are still working on the victims of the first crash, but it doesn't happen frequently. It's one of the risks of the job, but one that won't come true for most of them. Just another damocles sword in the background

    Quote Originally Posted by JustIgnoreMe View Post
    These particular "illnesses" were an asthma attack leading to 3 weeks in intensive care, and anaphylactic shock from a previously unknown allergy. In both cases it was a "sudden emergency" style medical situation, in which quick action was vital.
    Yet a sudden emergency is not an accident
    That is remarkably lucky. Broken bones can easily cause punctured lungs, kidneys and arteries.
    If you're remarkably unlucky. Arms or legs get broken tens of thousands times each year and the percentage that leads to something more serious is in the millesimal. Again, these figures get published yearly by dedicated goverment agencies and insurance companies.
    Quote Originally Posted by JustIgnoreMe View Post
    One guy I'm thinking of fell off a cliff, fell 30 feet and shattered his leg. He is lucky to be alive.
    And the number of people falling of cliff or of any significant height is small compared to the population as a whole.
    Last edited by SoC175; 2015-09-16 at 05:30 PM.

  7. - Top - End - #127
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    Default Re: Why aren't 95% of dwarven souls going to Hel anyway?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    Which of these two opinions do you think the story will reflect?
    http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0084.html

    Oooh, oooh!

  8. - Top - End - #128
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Why aren't 95% of dwarven souls going to Hel anyway?

    Quote Originally Posted by EAN View Post
    The problem is a bit deeper than just me guessing how should the Dwarven Way be.

    For example, if a warrior interfere in a battle and save the lives of his comrades , he just denied them of honorable death and perhaps condemned them to damnation by future accident.

    Meaning, if death is more important than life to the dwarves , then why is it honorable to sacrifice one's life to preserve the lives of others?
    It is selfish!
    The dead one avoids Hel , while the saved living are still at risk , having been denied their own "honorable death".
    There is a difference between fellow soldiers fighting a battle and another dwarf having an accident. While in the former case a really old dwarf, who knows that he is unlikely to see the next summer, might intervene to protect a far younger comrade usually they would let each other fight their battles. If another dwarf is in danger of dying in an accident risking your own life to safe them would be a honourable way to die.
    "If it lives it can be killed.
    If it is dead it can be eaten."

    Ronkong Coma "the way of the bookhunter" III Catacombium
    (Walter Moers "Die Stadt der träumenden Bücher")



  9. - Top - End - #129
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    Default Re: Why aren't 95% of dwarven souls going to Hel anyway?

    The worst part of the unfairness (which I don't decry, I think that it's a perfectly legit decision on the Giant's part that the dwarves live their (after)lives in an ultimately arbitrary and unfair system, even if it doesn't push my emotional happy buttons) is the underlying and objective cosmic/karmic results of it. At first when I started to type this, I was going to say that all things considered, as a dwarf, I'd probably side somewhere sort of close to Hilgya, saying "y'know, I've got a fair chance of going to Hel no matter what, so I'll just live my life the way that seems morally and personally right from my perspective and deal with the eternity of torment knowing that I'm satisfied with at least some portion of my existence." (This leaving aside for the moment that I'd almost certainly be an adventurer, and thus have a pretty decent chance of dying honorably anyway.) But before I typed that out, it hit me: Hel is Evil, and she's empowered by the number of souls she amasses in her afterlife. In other words, deciding to avoid the uncertainty of that fate and accepting that I will most likely go to Hel (as opposed to doing what the dwarves actually do, which is to take every possible honorable risk to try to get to their actual deserved afterlife) doesn't just condemn me to eternal suffering, but is also objectively Evil, because by allowing myself to die in a way that will get me sent to Hel, I'm increasing the power of Evil in the world...

    Cripes, man. I guess it's true what they say; the road to Hel is paved with good intentions.

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    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: Why aren't 95% of dwarven souls going to Hel anyway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Enran View Post
    The worst part of the unfairness (which I don't decry, I think that it's a perfectly legit decision on the Giant's part that the dwarves live their (after)lives in an ultimately arbitrary and unfair system, even if it doesn't push my emotional happy buttons) is the underlying and objective cosmic/karmic results of it. At first when I started to type this, I was going to say that all things considered, as a dwarf, I'd probably side somewhere sort of close to Hilgya, saying "y'know, I've got a fair chance of going to Hel no matter what, so I'll just live my life the way that seems morally and personally right from my perspective and deal with the eternity of torment knowing that I'm satisfied with at least some portion of my existence." (This leaving aside for the moment that I'd almost certainly be an adventurer, and thus have a pretty decent chance of dying honorably anyway.) But before I typed that out, it hit me: Hel is Evil, and she's empowered by the number of souls she amasses in her afterlife. In other words, deciding to avoid the uncertainty of that fate and accepting that I will most likely go to Hel (as opposed to doing what the dwarves actually do, which is to take every possible honorable risk to try to get to their actual deserved afterlife) doesn't just condemn me to eternal suffering, but is also objectively Evil, because by allowing myself to die in a way that will get me sent to Hel, I'm increasing the power of Evil in the world...

    Cripes, man. I guess it's true what they say; the road to Hel is paved with good intentions.
    As a cleric of Loki, it's possible that Hilgya is outside of the usual Thor/Hel duopoly since she has switched to an entirely different belief system. Of course, if her soul goes to Loki, she's still aiding Evil apparently.

  11. - Top - End - #131
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Why aren't 95% of dwarven souls going to Hel anyway?

    Quote Originally Posted by EAN View Post
    Meaning, if death is more important than life to the dwarves , then why is it honorable to sacrifice one's life to preserve the lives of others?.
    Among the Dwarves, as I understand it, death is not more important than life. A life with honor is important, because a society that embraces death through reckless combats and pointless accidents is one that will be highly dysfunctional collapse in the end. That's why most Dwarves embrace honor and selfless-sacrifice the way they do. Because when they die in the field of battle, they want nothing more than to know that their clan will have a brighter future.

    At least that's my opinion.

  12. - Top - End - #132
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    SamuraiGuy

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    Default Re: Why aren't 95% of dwarven souls going to Hel anyway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kantaki View Post
    There is a difference between fellow soldiers fighting a battle and another dwarf having an accident. While in the former case a really old dwarf, who knows that he is unlikely to see the next summer, might intervene to protect a far younger comrade usually they would let each other fight their battles. If another dwarf is in danger of dying in an accident risking your own life to safe them would be a honourable way to die.
    That is the problem, If another dwarf is in danger of dying in an accident , his life should be saved,
    while if he is in a danger of dying in a battle or other honorable way, his life should not be saved.
    If a dwarf does save another dwarf from a death "with honor" , at the cost of his own life, he basically "stole" the death. is it honorable to do so?
    English is not my native tongue , so if i make a mistake, feel free to correct me.

  13. - Top - End - #133
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    Default Re: Why aren't 95% of dwarven souls going to Hel anyway?

    You're really overthinking it. "Dying with honour in battle is good" has often been a tenet of warlike cultures throughout history, and yet, they somehow managed not to let fellow warriors die pointlessly when it could be avoided.
    ungelic is us

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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Why aren't 95% of dwarven souls going to Hel anyway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Father Miles View Post
    As a cleric of Loki, it's possible that Hilgya is outside of the usual Thor/Hel duopoly since she has switched to an entirely different belief system. Of course, if her soul goes to Loki, she's still aiding Evil apparently.
    Considering Durkon’s explanation I doubt Loki’s (and other evil gods’) followers are exempt from the honour-system. Some, like Hilgya, might reject it, but I think if they die unhonourable they get a unpleasant surprise.

    I mean it seems Loki was involved in the bet that led to this situation. I think it is unlikely that he was allowed to put in a exemption for himself.
    "If it lives it can be killed.
    If it is dead it can be eaten."

    Ronkong Coma "the way of the bookhunter" III Catacombium
    (Walter Moers "Die Stadt der träumenden Bücher")



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    Default Re: Why aren't 95% of dwarven souls going to Hel anyway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pyron View Post
    Among the Dwarves, as I understand it, death is not more important than life. A life with honor is important, because a society that embraces death through reckless combats and pointless accidents is one that will be highly dysfunctional collapse in the end. That's why most Dwarves embrace honor and selfless-sacrifice the way they do. Because when they die in the field of battle, they want nothing more than to know that their clan will have a brighter future.

    At least that's my opinion.
    But if the Death is that important in determining the hereafter of a dwarf's soul.
    while continued life for a dwarf that lives good honorable life are a risk.
    a similar problem exists to non dwarves as well, with the risk of good people Being corrupted and damning their soul by evil acts.
    basically this is the problem in any setting with verifiable afterlife.
    But for dwarves with this quite unfair system, the problem is much more evident.
    English is not my native tongue , so if i make a mistake, feel free to correct me.

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    Default Re: Why aren't 95% of dwarven souls going to Hel anyway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Father Miles View Post
    As a cleric of Loki, it's possible that Hilgya is outside of the usual Thor/Hel duopoly since she has switched to an entirely different belief system. Of course, if her soul goes to Loki, she's still aiding Evil apparently.
    From my understanding, she would still have to die honorably to go to Loki, despite him being Chaotic Evil.

    ... Yeah.

    As for the "aiding Evil" thing, I mean yeah she would be, but it hardly seems like that's being forced on her since she's already a Chaotic-Neutral-at-best-and-probably-Evil Cleric devoting worship to an Evil god, so increasing the power of that Evil god seems like something she'd be in support of. Otherwise Good dwarves who die dishonorably don't just suffer forever, they've also committed Evil if they didn't do everything in their power to avoid dying in said dishonorable way, because in doing so they increase Evil's power.

    None of the dwarves who die from the Godsmoot world-ending would suffer an alignment hit on this count, but pretty much every dwarf in history who tried to make something else of their life besides following their culture probably would.

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    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: Why aren't 95% of dwarven souls going to Hel anyway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kantaki View Post
    Considering Durkon’s explanation I doubt Loki’s (and other evil gods’) followers are exempt from the honour-system. Some, like Hilgya, might reject it, but I think if they die unhonourable they get a unpleasant surprise.

    I mean it seems Loki was involved in the bet that led to this situation. I think it is unlikely that he was allowed to put in a exemption for himself.
    But when it came to Hilgya's situation, Durkon did not have enough ranks in Knowledge (religion) to understand it. Then he was caught by surprise when he found out she had abandoned everything and run away.

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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Why aren't 95% of dwarven souls going to Hel anyway?

    Quote Originally Posted by EAN View Post
    But if the Death is that important in determining the hereafter of a dwarf's soul.
    while continued life for a dwarf that lives good honorable life are a risk.
    a similar problem exists to non dwarves as well, with the risk of good people Being corrupted and damning their soul by evil acts.
    basically this is the problem in any setting with verifiable afterlife.
    But for dwarves with this quite unfair system, the problem is much more evident.
    Does saving someone from certain death risk their ultimate destination? In a certain sense that might be the case, but ultimately it depends on the choices the saved person makes from that point onwards. On the other hand letting someone die if you easily could have saved them puts your own afterlife in peril. Afterall such a (in)action is neither honourable nor particular good.
    "If it lives it can be killed.
    If it is dead it can be eaten."

    Ronkong Coma "the way of the bookhunter" III Catacombium
    (Walter Moers "Die Stadt der träumenden Bücher")



  19. - Top - End - #139
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    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: Why aren't 95% of dwarven souls going to Hel anyway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Enran View Post
    From my understanding, she would still have to die honorably to go to Loki, despite him being Chaotic Evil.

    ... Yeah.
    You are probably correct, Loki is a substitute for Thor in her case.

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    Default Re: Why aren't 95% of dwarven souls going to Hel anyway?

    Quote Originally Posted by hroşila View Post
    You're really overthinking it. "Dying with honour in battle is good" has often been a tenet of warlike cultures throughout history, and yet, they somehow managed not to let fellow warriors die pointlessly when it could be avoided.
    Humans have maximum skill ranks in Doublethink as a natural racial ability, and a racial +8 bonus to Hypocrisy checks.
    Last edited by Bulldog Psion; 2015-09-16 at 06:21 PM.
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    So the song runs on, with shift and change,
    Through the years that have no name,
    And the late notes soar to a higher range,
    But the theme is still the same.
    Man's battle-cry and the guns' reply
    Blend in with the old, old rhyme
    That was traced in the score of the strata marks
    While millenniums winked like campfire sparks
    Down the winds of unguessed time. -- 4th Stanza, The Bad Lands, Badger Clark

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    Default Re: Why aren't 95% of dwarven souls going to Hel anyway?

    Enran makes an interesting point about how any dwarf who accepts his Hel-ish fate is by necessity committing Evil, but my the most hilarious things are the karma implications going the other way. Why does Hel have no followers? Probably because anybody who wants to join her in the afterlife can already find plenty of easy ways to die dishonorably. Think about it for a second: let's say you have this Cleric of Hel, and he believes very strongly in his goddess' ideals, so he goes around using magic and mundane resources to assist in making people sick and otherwise prone to dying dishonorably. ("I stuck a chicken bone in your ale, so you were drinking yourself to death but still died from choking on a chicken bone and are going to Hel, HA!") One day, his plans are figured out in advance, and another dwarf busts in on him, challenging him to a duel. He realizes he has no other escape route and that if he doesn't accept the honorable combat, he'll be set upon by dozens of dwarves instead of one, while winning this one-vs-one will likely get him out unscathed, if exiled. So he accepts, but isn't able to hold up; his enemy defeats and kills him, and his soul rises away...

    ... And when his soul-self opens its eyes, preparing to take in the great landscape of his goddess' realm...

    He winds up looking Fenrir right in the eye.

    Call me Remedy or Celia, whichever you prefer.

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    Default Re: Why aren't 95% of dwarven souls going to Hel anyway?

    You know, the more I see of this argument, the more I'm becoming convinced that this is exactly how Loki and Thor (as page 2, panel 1 of 1000 implies) conned Hel into the 'wager' that resulted in the unique fate of dwarf souls to begin with - by playing on her assumptions about how most dwarves would lead their lives and deaths, instead of how dwarven culture would actually be.
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    Also, as a rule of thumb, if you find yourself defending your inalienable right to make someone else feel like garbage, you're on the wrong side of the argument.
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    There is nothing more emblematic of this forum than three or four pages of debate between people who, as it turns out, pretty much agree with each other.


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    Default Re: Why aren't 95% of dwarven souls going to Hel anyway?

    SoC175, the flaw in your argument is that you are basing everything in personal, anecdotal evidence. You have not experienced accidents or major disasters, so you assume it is rare. It is not. Everyone in the Southeast to Midwest US has to deal with tornadoes on a yearly basis. East Coast has hurricanes. West Coast has wildfires and earthquakes. Hawaii has volcanoes, tsunamis, tropical storms, etc. Hell, Birmingham has a pretty good shot at "Most bombed city in the South." Who the hell even cares about Birmingham enough to bomb us every twenty years?!? Montana? Mt. St. Helen was MASSIVE. Alaska? Snow storms. Phoenix, AZ? Living every day in Phoenix, AZ.

    Natural disasters abound in the country. And we're lucky enough to be a country with a system in place for helping in such disasters. What happens when, for example, Haiti gets hit by a hurricane? Stats on that are nowhere near as rosy. And all that is just natural disasters.

    Now, move far away from the real world, take away almost all modern technology, add in every monster from every monster manual, and what the hell do you expect? Hint: not statistically similar results to a modern country with a high standard of living.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2015-09-16 at 09:55 PM.
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    Default Re: Why aren't 95% of dwarven souls going to Hel anyway?

    The funny thing about this discussion is that the RL analogy isn't even accurate. For example, if I wanted to die an 'honorable' death fighting the forces of evil I could easily leave my California comforts, buy a couple connecting fares to sub-Saharan Africa, and try to free some junior high aged boys from forced conscription to a warlord who is, by almost any moral standard, 'evil'. But I don't because, well, I prefer to live as long as reasonably possible, thanks! Yet it illustrates just how fallacious is this idea of a bunch of elderly dwarves sitting around just hoping an opportunity to fight the good fight will come along. I'm not sure if the strip about them going out to fight a tree when their time had come was meant in any serious way, but the point stands that they know what's coming in the afterlife and they aren't dumb- they can go find an honorable death, as it's defined here. StickWorld (odd that it still doesn't have an official name) is clearly not lacking in dangers and malicious actors.
    "For you see, I theorize that the halfling does not possess a true sentient brain, like you or I, but rather a simple lump of nerve tissue that serves as a primitive "proto-brain" that can only process two emotional reactions to people: Hate or Lust."

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    Default Re: Why aren't 95% of dwarven souls going to Hel anyway?

    Quote Originally Posted by SoC175 View Post
    But not in a way that puts you in much danger. If you stop by the site of an accident that happened an hour ago or help changing a tire or jumpstarting, that's not putting your life on the line

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    SoC175, the flaw in your argument is that you are basing everything in personal, anecdotal evidence. You have not experienced accidents or major disasters, so you assume it is rare. It is not. Everyone in the Southeast to Midwest US has to deal with tornadoes on a yearly basis. East Coast has hurricanes. West Coast has wildfires and earthquakes. Hawaii has volcanoes, tsunamis, tropical storms, etc. Hell, Birmingham has a pretty good shot at "Most bombed city in the South." Who the hell even cares about Birmingham enough to bomb us every twenty years?!? Montana? Mt. St. Helen was MASSIVE. Alaska? Snow storms. Phoenix, AZ? Living every day in Phoenix, AZ.

    Natural disasters abound in the country. And we're lucky enough to be a country with a system in place for helping in such disasters. What happens when, for example, Haiti gets hit by a hurricane? Stats on that are nowhere near as rosy. And all that is just natural disasters.

    Now, move far away from the real world, take away almost all modern technology, add in every monster from every monster manual, and what the hell do you expect? Hint: not statistically similar results to a modern country with a high standard of living.
    This. Move to Iraq and find out how often you have an opportunity to risk your life to save someone else. Probably on a daily basis.

    You're talking about car accidents? The people in this world would LOVE to have that problem. Instead they'll face 3 potentially life threatening encounters just walking to the next village to go on a date.

    Quote Originally Posted by SoC175 View Post
    It doesn't? In Germany that would be against the law to pass by without helping.

    Lol yeah America is different. We're discouraged from helping people, because if you try to help someone and accidentally make it worse they'll sue you for everything you own.
    Last edited by littlebum2002; 2015-09-16 at 11:09 PM.

  26. - Top - End - #146
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    Default Re: Why aren't 95% of dwarven souls going to Hel anyway?

    One thing I thought of while reading this discussion: The habits of dwarves pushing themselves into danger every possible chance they get is potentially important beyond just their afterlife destination. You know who typically pushes themselves into every potentially dangerous situation they encounter in a D&D World? That's right, Adventurers.

    Every dwarf ever is basically an adventurer who averages something closer to a 1 encounter work year than a 1 encounter work day. But that's fine because they live for a long time. Their habit of throwing themselves into the fire every time there is an emergency likely leads to the dwarven population having a higher average level than other races in the world. Even if it means a typical dwarf is level 3-4 instead of level 1-2, that makes a huge difference power-wise overall.

    It helps explain (to me at least, I doubt it has any impact on the canon at all) why the 10million dwarven souls are worth so much to Hel. Because an individual typical dwarven soul is straight up worth more than a typical human or halfling soul, because those races have societies typically geared more towards self preservation, in addition to a much shorter lifespan.
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  27. - Top - End - #147
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    Default Re: Why aren't 95% of dwarven souls going to Hel anyway?

    Quote Originally Posted by littlebum2002 View Post
    Lol yeah America is different. We're discouraged from helping people, because if you try to help someone and accidentally make it worse they'll sue you for everything you own.
    For some kinds of help, in some places, there are Good Samaritan laws (you can't get in trouble for trying to help but accidentally making it worse) to avoid exactly that sort of implicit discouragement. (For example, in Washington State, giving CPR is protected that way.)
    Last edited by rodneyAnonymous; 2015-09-17 at 12:39 AM.
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  28. - Top - End - #148
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    Default Re: Why aren't 95% of dwarven souls going to Hel anyway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    SoC175, the flaw in your argument is that you are basing everything in personal, anecdotal evidence.
    No, I am not.

    Saying " I've driven for 20 years, and do maybe 5,000 miles a year. I know people who do four times that or even more. 2 accidents in that time is not even close to being "particularly unlucky"." Is arguiging from personal, anecdotal evidence.

    Saying there are 7.6 deadly accidents for every billion km driven is the exact opposite of personal, anecdotal evidence.

    The numbers how many accidents happen every years are published yearly, that one

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    You have not experienced accidents or major disasters, so you assume it is rare. It is not. Everyone in the Southeast to Midwest US has to deal with tornadoes on a yearly basis. East Coast has hurricanes. West Coast has wildfires and earthquakes. Hawaii has volcanoes, tsunamis, tropical storms, etc. Hell, Birmingham has a pretty good shot at "Most bombed city in the South." Who the hell even cares about Birmingham enough to bomb us every twenty years?!? Montana? Mt. St. Helen was MASSIVE. Alaska? Snow storms. Phoenix, AZ? Living every day in Phoenix, AZ.
    And yet what it comes down to every year in cold hard numbers gets published by various state departments and insurance companies for everyone to look up.

    E.g. natural desasters in the USA from 1970-2014 together only claimed half as many lives as yearly die in traffic accidents and the chance to be among the later is already very slim. There's perceived danger and there's the realty of those dangers.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    The funny thing about this discussion is that the RL analogy isn't even accurate.
    It was the Giant who started bringing this up by saying that living in our snugly first world countries without having experiend plenty of those situations yet we must be either very young or very sheltered. Yet national statistics show that it's the opposite. Having been in mutliple such occassion in the USA means you had a streak of bad luck

  29. - Top - End - #149
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    Default Re: Why aren't 95% of dwarven souls going to Hel anyway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Seerow View Post
    One thing I thought of while reading this discussion: The habits of dwarves pushing themselves into danger every possible chance they get is potentially important beyond just their afterlife destination. You know who typically pushes themselves into every potentially dangerous situation they encounter in a D&D World? That's right, Adventurers.

    Every dwarf ever is basically an adventurer who averages something closer to a 1 encounter work year than a 1 encounter work day. But that's fine because they live for a long time. Their habit of throwing themselves into the fire every time there is an emergency likely leads to the dwarven population having a higher average level than other races in the world. Even if it means a typical dwarf is level 3-4 instead of level 1-2, that makes a huge difference power-wise overall.

    It helps explain (to me at least, I doubt it has any impact on the canon at all) why the 10million dwarven souls are worth so much to Hel. Because an individual typical dwarven soul is straight up worth more than a typical human or halfling soul, because those races have societies typically geared more towards self preservation, in addition to a much shorter lifespan.
    There is no honor in dying in risky situation for no just cause. nor there is honor in fighting when diplomacy could solve the situation with no bloodshed.
    Basically ,we have a conflict with the lawful good alignment values, and the dwarven honorable death value.
    They will not have any higher level than any other people due the same reason epic elven wizards don't rule the OOTS world.
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  30. - Top - End - #150
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    Default Re: Why aren't 95% of dwarven souls going to Hel anyway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boogastreehouse View Post
    In this setting, there isn't a 911 number to call.
    Unless, of course, you live in a steampunk town and can count on the Department of Gnomeland Security.
    (which is a very dangerous job, BTW)
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