Naval Tactics in the Age of the Sail

[Icewalker]

This is by far the biggest project I have embarked upon in all dnd.

I am attempting to flesh out AN ENTIRE NEW SYSTEM for combat, for ship-to-ship battles. Naval battles, in the general Napoleonic war's era. This means ships of the line, cannons (I am leaving out carronades for the sake of simplicity, don't need two different kinds of cannon really, with all the different sizes).

Anybody who has read the Hornblower series knows what I'm talking about. Anybody who hasn't should go read them right now and come back. Amazing books. They are what inspired this (along with a slight nudge back into the forefront of my mind from watching Pirates of the Caribbean then listening to the music again).

[hr]

So an entirely new system. This means turn system, movement system, combat system, damage system, health system. And the hardest part is that this entire new set of systems has to coincide with the normal dnd ones, for personal health and such. With this amount of work you could base a campaign off this stuff. In fact, I intend to.

These battles were reeeally complex. I am starting research on the topic.



One further thing that must be done:

New classes. No more wimpy "Profession (Sailor)". It has to be a class. I have already begun work on it.
I also believe we need a seamage class, which I am also going to begin work on, as a PrC to be taken after about 5 levels of Sailor.

[Icewalker]

First things first: the systems.


The ship health/damage system: The first thing we need to do is make the system for ships living, taking partial damage, all of that. One important aspect of this to take into account is equipment. What it takes to sink a ship, what it takes to disable a ship, what it takes to damage certain ships functions. This coincides greatly with the second system...

The ship/cannon damage-dealing system: This system has to deal with how cannons and other things, such as combat spell-casting, can damage parts of a ship and it's equipment. This means damage sails to incapacitate movement, firing on the ship to impair offensive power and possibly kill crew, all that. There is an important spoilered batch of information below the next section relating to the two systems.

The ship/cannon combat system: This is going to be one of the hardest systems to manage, and it will coincide deeply with ship movement. This is how shots hit, where they hit, how being windward or leeward affects your fire, how experienced or inexperienced cannoneers affect your firing accuracy, as well as wind. I have found information on different cannons and their sizes, gunpowder requirements, recoil, range, etc. I expect several of these points will not come into play, luckily. I have created a spoilered information table here:

Spoiler

Show

{table=head]Cannon type (By cannonball size)|Cannon size|Shot diameter|Cannon weight|Powder charge|Range at 5 degree elevation|Recoil

9 pounder|

8' 6"

|

4"

|

3528

|3 lbs.|4860 ft.|2 ft.

12 pounder|

8' 6"

|

4.4"

|

3808

|4 lbs.|4740 ft.|6 ft.

18 pounder|

9'

|

5.1"

|

4704

|6 lbs.|5400 ft.|8 ft.

24 pounder|

9' 6"

|

5.6"

|

5600

|8 lbs.|5400 ft.|11 ft.

32 pounder|

9' 6"

|

6.1"

|

6216

|10.5 lbs.|6240 ft.|11 ft.

42 pounder|

9' 6"

|

6.7"

|

7504

|14 lbs.|5820 ft.|13 ft.[/table]

The ship movement system: I believe this system is going to be the hardest to create. There are SO MANY things that affect the movement and movement strategies and tactics of ship-to-ship combat. This will coincide importantly with the turn system, which is going to be very complex to create, moving real-time into a turn-based system.

A few things which are part of the combat and movement systems combined:

• Windward and Leeward
• The rolling of ships (affects angle of fire, see combat system)
• Raking vs. Broadsides and how angle of fire and relative position/orientation/movement of the ships affects it.
• The wind affecting shots, as well as ship movement.

This is just off the top of my head and before I have done any real research into the topic beyond skimming a few Wiki pages.

[Icewalker]

There is a small amount of research I have done upon the sizes of ships. I will begin to post these here now. This contains information on ship size, crew size (lowered for the sake of simplicity. Ships of the line contained ridiculously large crews), cannon count and location, officers vs standard sailors.

So:

Ship sizes: smallest to largest

Cutter

Gun-brig

Sloop of War

Sixth rate

Fifth rate

Fourth rate

Third rate

Second rate

First rate

DETAILS AWAY BELOW!

Some important distinctions
The sailor count is what is generally used, not what is required to actually sail a ship. Another difficult aspect to do is difference in efficiency due to changed crew size. A small group (like perhaps a group of adventurers?) fleeing an island attempting to crew a ship? Then they get into a battle? What differences are there due to this tiny crew?

Ranks, descriptions, and ranking order (please feel free to correct me, as I am sure there are mistakes in here. Some are left blank as I do not yet have full information. Our system will have to vary slightly from the British system this is based upon):

Conscripted:
Midshipmen: The lowest of the officers, the midshipmen are basically the younger boys with the great dreams of being captain someday. They can give orders to the sailors, don't really know to what level...
Lieutenant: The next rank up from Midshipman, Lieutenants rank by superiority. The lieutenant on board the ship who had been lieutenant the longest is the first lieutenant, and is often the second-in-command of the ship.
Commander: The next step up past lieutenant, commanders captained smaller ships, but didn't rate ships of the line. They generally crewed Sloops of War and similarly sized ships, perhaps smaller or unimportant sixth-rates.
Post-captain: The rank of Post-captain was the entrance to the higher up final rankings of the ships. Unless a post-captain was killed or disgraced, they would continue to move up as higher-ranking officers retired or were killed. As long as they remained an officer in the navy, Post-captains were guaranteed to continue moving up the ranks through captain, commodore, and even to admiral.
Captain:
Commodore:
Admiral:

Non conscripted don't have ranks to my knowledge, or at least no particular order
Sailor
Gunner
Bosun (Boatswain):
Carpenter

[Icewalker]

Cutter

• Mast count: 1

Guns

• Gun decks: 1
• Gun count: 2-4
• Gun sizes: 9-pounders only
• Gun locations: 1-2 on a side

Crew

• 4-5 officers:
  
  • 1 Lieutenant (In command)
  • 1 Surgeon
  • 1 Boatswain
  • 1 Carpenter
  • 0 or 1 Midshipmen
• 5-15 Sailor crew.

[hr]

Gun-Brig

• Mast count: 2

Guns

• Gun decks: 1
• Gun count: 6-12
• Gun sizes: 9-pounders only
• Gun locations: 3-6 on a side

Crew

• 5-7 officers:
  
  • 1 Lieutenant (In command)
  • 1 Surgeon
  • 1 Boatswain
  • 1 Carpenter
  • 1 to 3 Midshipmen
• 25-40 Sailor crew.

[hr]

Sloop of War

• Mast count: 3

Guns

• Gun decks: 1
• Gun count: 10-18
• Gun sizes: 9-pounders only
• Gun locations: 5-9 on a side

Crew

• 9-10 officers:
  
  • 1 Commander (In command)
  • 1 lieutenant
  • 1 Master
  • 1 Surgeon
  • 1 Gunner
  • 1 Boatswain
  • 1 Carpenter
  • 2 or 3 Midshipmen
• 60-130 Sailor crew.
• 0-20 Marines.

[Icewalker]

You can always use another reserved post!

[Icewalker]

more reserved posts?

I'd like to use three for the ship details.

One for cutter/gun-brig/sloop-of-war

One for sixth, fifth, and fourth rates

One for third, second, and first rates.

[Icewalker]

There is always room for one more post considering how much this is going to take...



Done tonight, gonna be back tomorrow with more information!

[Triaxx]

Something to not only consider, but also remember, is that pirates aren't necessarily going to engage with full fleet tactics. These are going to come out of nowhere, hit you and disappear, usually after looting or capturing a ship. Depending on the number of players, you might want to have one group playing pirates, while the other group is the navy. Be sure to consider the tactics both sides are going to exploit.

Also, gun size isn't the only thing to consider. The actual ammunition is just as important. Grapeshot, Barshot, Chainshot, and pure cannon ball. Don't forget to include both smooth bore, and rifled cannons. Look at the articles on the Battle of Trafalgar, Britain versus Spain. Very interesting reading on tactics.

[Icewalker]

I think I may ignore smoothbore/rifled barrels, and instead use faulty-normal-masterwork for cannons and cannonballs.

Although yes, there is also a lot of different cannon shots to use. I already have plans for a special crystal that explodes when thrown (new magic item: Blazestone marble, identical to fireball beads). Like REALLY EXPLODES. Which this one pirate group knew how to make cannonballs out of, which could easily sink a ship of almost any size.

On the subject of grapeshot and anti-personnel weaponry:

Swivel-guns! Gotta stat em out. Also crude rifles, probably, although they are innaccurate enough and expensive enough that almost all crews use crossbows instead.

Already begun work on the class of Sailor.


Generally, sailing tactics were pretty similar I think, although they would vary by goal of course. A merchant ship would aim high, disable the sails, then move away if they were windward. A pirate ship would aim high, disable sails, maybe give em a broadside or two so they don't try to shoot you down, then run up alongside and board em.

Thats another thing that'll have to be made. Boarding. Combat on a scale of that size is gonna be somewhat challenging, as groups could be quite large...

But where was I. Two fleets of opposing navies trying to destroy each other would probably aim low to try to destroy the opposing ships, then high once they flee.



Oooh, idea. As the turn system must be based on rounds, so it converts into normal dnd combat, and one turn high, one turn low, maybe 2 and 2 in really thick weather...

[Cybren]

Something to not only consider, but also remember, is that pirates aren't necessarily going to engage with full fleet tactics. These are going to come out of nowhere, hit you and disappear, usually after looting or capturing a ship. Depending on the number of players, you might want to have one group playing pirates, while the other group is the navy. Be sure to consider the tactics both sides are going to exploit.

Also, gun size isn't the only thing to consider. The actual ammunition is just as important. Grapeshot, Barshot, Chainshot, and pure cannon ball. Don't forget to include both smooth bore, and rifled cannons. Look at the articles on the Battle of Trafalgar, Britain versus Spain. Very interesting reading on tactics.

Uhm I imagine it would be far more profitable for the pirates to not hit you, but rather show that they're pirates, board you, kill you if there's any resistence, or maybe even if there isn't, then take all your stuff.
Can't make a profit if the cargo is at the bottum of the sea

[LongVin]

For the ships damage system I would suggest you divide the system into 2 or 3 different parts to simulate damage to different areas of the ship. Since depending on where the ship is hit, you will have different effects

You could have HP for the sails and rigging.

HP for the hull above the water line and possibly a seperate HP for hull below the waterline.

This would allow you to simulate most types of damage that could occur to a ship and even have the ship being completely crippled(sails and rigging destroyed) but still floating and generally operational below deck.

[TheThan]

Books you should get:
Stormwrack
D20 modern-past

Both books provide great sources of information. Stromwrack gives you great information about roles for your players to play onboard ship, as well as rules for ship to ship tactics (might give you a good starting off point). It gives you some new prestige classes, magic weapons, has a fair amount of ships for use as well as personal equipment and weapons (like the cutlass, arr!).

D20 modern-past has stats for guns (cannons), muskets (guns), and pistols (guns). It’s very good in fact.

[Icewalker]

Books you should get:
Stormwrack
D20 modern-past

Both books provide great sources of information. Stromwrack gives you great information about roles for your players to play onboard ship, as well as rules for ship to ship tactics (might give you a good starting off point). It gives you some new prestige classes, magic weapons, has a fair amount of ships for use as well as personal equipment and weapons (like the cutlass, arr!).

D20 modern-past has stats for guns (cannons), muskets (guns), and pistols (guns). It’s very good in fact.

Stormwrack sounds excellent. I'll look at that and modify off of it, as I want to be creating a unique system. Went and read a little bit about it: LOOKS PERFECT, definitely have to go get this. Excellent new source.

As to the second book, I dunno. I want very weak firearms, and the big issue with cannons is dealing damage to the ship. Doesn't sound like enough information to warrant buying a book.

For the ships damage system I would suggest you divide the system into 2 or 3 different parts to simulate damage to different areas of the ship. Since depending on where the ship is hit, you will have different effects

You could have HP for the sails and rigging.

HP for the hull above the water line and possibly a seperate HP for hull below the waterline.

This would allow you to simulate most types of damage that could occur to a ship and even have the ship being completely crippled(sails and rigging destroyed) but still floating and generally operational below deck.

Exactly. Sounds about right, except for one further thing.

Sail damage, damaging movement, right.
Hull damage, eventual sinking of ship, all good.
But then we also need damage to crew, and damage to cannons...This one will be hard.
I kind of like the idea for breaching the ship below the normal hull (which could only be done when they are to leeward of you and you are firing down, and would still be hard to do) as those hits are important, as they are really hard to fix.



Some further points:
replacement of ranks on ships due to a dnd world:
carpenter would probably be some form of artificer
all ships would need a seamage. If one doesn't the seamage on the other would probably tear them apart.


A magic item idea:
heavy crossbow bolts, thick black and extremely heavy. When fired out of a heavy crossbow, they turn into cannonballs. I'm thinking there would be 9-pounder cannonbolts, as well as 12 and 18 pounder versions.

[Destro_Yersul]

The arms and equipment guide has a section on ships. Not saying you need it, but it's easier to make something if you have a base. One of the things it uses is separate HP totals for each 5ft section of ship, as well as for rigging and sails.

[Triaxx]

Cybren: I was talking about if they were being pursued. Merchant hunting is a simpler tactic. Appear, destroy the sails, loot the ship, and run.

When it comes to boarding actions, including those of fleets, don't forget the marines.

[Icewalker]

Yup, I'm adding in marines as part of the crew lists, although it'll always be 0-#, because some ships wouldn't have any.

I think separate hp for 5 ft. sections is too many, as there were some big ships. I'm thinking there could be port hull, starboard hull, bow, stern, underhull, and sails. Individual cannons as well, but they would be harder to hit, and almost always destroyed by a hit.

[Winterking]

I would suggest that you take a look at the rulebook for Battlefleet Gothic for ideas on how to codify some of the Age-of-Sail variables you mention. (available as a free download from GW's Specialist Games website) Sure, it's space battle in the far future, but the system uses rules/tactics similar to many aspects of AoS battle--Eldar ships have movement that relies on their alignment towards the sun (like ships having or lacking the weather guage), and most importantly, there are gunnery tables that allow you to compare the effectiveness of different strengths of artillery when firing at ships that are closing, sailing away or sailing abeam to the firing ship. Also, if you have a chance, buy some packs of Pirates of the Spanish Main (or of Ocean's Edge, or of the Frozen North, or any of Wizkid's expansions), the constructible strategy game. At the very least, the small plasticard models are really cool; at best, they've got some admittedly simplistic but still interesting rules for sailing ships. I think taking a look at what's out there already will help you steal/commandeer ideas that you think would work well.

Also important to consider--what do you want the focus of this system to be? Are you looking at individual ships--ie, a party/player plays the officers on a single warship? Is it small-squadron based--the players each have one or two ships in a squadron of six to ten? Is it squadron/fleet based, and pvp--the players each control a group of ships and fight against the enemy? Picking one of these to focus on will help you decide how much detail is necessary and worthwhile--if the game is squadron-based, you probably don't want to worry about detailed rules for topmast musketeers, aiming high or low, etc. If the game is single-ship based, or each player has a single ship, then you'll want to focus on these things, and also on how the players fit into the fleet they are a part of.



EDIT: You mentioned needing new classes...For the campaign I'm currently running, I created a subset of the Expert class, basically Expert: Sailor. In addition to skill points, they had automatic Skill Focus in Profession: Sailor, and depending on the particular sailor's specialty, different bonus feats at second and third level--things like Alertness (for crow's nest types), Agility (clambering about on the ropes), Weapon Focus: Cutlass, Skill Focus: Use Rope. I think at 2nd level there were 2 bonus feats, simple skill-based ones, and then something else at third (it basically capped at 3rd; at that point most sailors would either simply get very very good--more expert levels--or start to branch out into command, combat, magic, etc roles.). I don't remember the exact arrangements, because none of my players took me up on the offer, but I recall it having a certain elegance in my mind. You might try something simple like that.

[TheThan]

You’ve gotta remember that ship based combat in dnd is way different than it is in real life, for one in dnd you have magic, that plays a HUGE part in any navel encounter. Plus all sorts of nasty underwater monsters to fight.

Anyway getting to classes
You could modify the marshal into a captain base class, inspiring his crew to work harder and fight better etc. A bard has an excellent place on a ship, keeping everything in time with sea shanties and what not. Lets see… fighters and paladins would make great marines, clerics would be good for a healer roll (probably cloistered cleric). Barbarians, rangers and rogues make good pirate classes. Wizards and sorceress have an obvious place aboard ship, taking the roll of ships’ mage (good in case you get stuck without wind, or just need a spell slinger in battles); an expert makes a good deckhand. Druids, with their wildshape make great scouts or even infiltrators. Swashbucklers are an obvious choice for a navel game.


Ultimately it depends on what you have planned; a single ship? Or a flotilla of ships each under the command of a PC? Choose, but choose wisely

[Icewalker]

Here is how the new classes and such are going to work:

I am working on a new base class, Sailor, which is EVERYTHING one needs on a ship. Your basic sailor, the NPCs keeping the ship running, are going to be 2-4 sailors, higher or lower depending on the experience of the crew (I'm seeing a new method of single unit experience for winning ship-to-ship battles, because the crew would level up for it...).

Everybody who is going to be the crew member of a ship should have 2 or more levels of sailor. At second level they can automatically make balance checks on rocking ships, non-threatened and out of reeeally extreme winds. All sorts of handy stuff like that.

The important thing about sailors is that at (probably) 10th level, they specialize. Might be a lower level, like 7. You can specialize into all sorts of different positions. There will probably be about 5-6 choices. What I have so far:
Leadership (the officers all take this, gives leadership feat, bonuses, lets you command ships during combat, bonuses when commanding a ship, etc)

Gunner (bonuses to aiming cannons, there is a rank 'gunner' although I think they keep organization on the lower gun decks, I need to do some research there)

Lookout (massive spot/balance bonuses, hangs out in crows nest with a magic spyglass to identify the flags of spotted ships at great distances, longbow enchanted for super-distance firing, and selection of anti-ship arrows. Interesting first shot scenarios where the ships close on each other while firing off these specially made arrows.)

I don't think surgeon will be a subset of sailor, they will just be Sailor 2/Cleric # probably.

The magic aspect modifying sea battles is definitely going to be big. I'm making a new class for that, and the wizard and sorcerer classes are going to have to be modified, and are going to be almost never used. New class is a PrC which stems from 5(?) levels of sailor into a ship casting class, no concentration checks for rocking ship, nothing added to the DC of concentration checks for being threatened due to rocking ships, new spells, etc.

Bards do sound like excellent parts of ships, good plan. I'm just seeing Sailor 2/Bard # as the general bard character. Sounds like the kind of person who wouldn't be a required unit on all ships (like carpenter (artificer), surgeon (cleric?) or Seamage) but would be very handy. New bard sea songs for ship bonuses.

Marines would be fighters, probably with longswords and muskets. There would be a weapons chest on ships for the normal crew in case of boarding (either direction). The usual weapons of a sailing crew is pikes, cutlass', and muskets (although my muskets will suck enough and be expensive enough that very few ships will have them as a crew weapon).

[Human Paragon 3]

I would divide the ship three ways like this:

Mast Damage: Mast, sails, rigging. Damage limits movement, maybe critical hits actually eliminate a mast.

Hull Damage: Both above and below the water line, this is the structural integrity of the ship. Enough hull damage will sink the ship.

Deck Damage: This is damage to everything else on the ship: People, cannons, cargo etc. This can give penalties to combat and skill checks (Manuevering, firing cannons etc.) A percentile can determine if PCs are effected by deck damage.

[Icewalker]

Exactly.

I'm thinking sails and rigging are going to be the same though.
Deal enough damage to a mast and it is knocked over.

Hitting lower ship can hit cannons, or crew. Gotta figure out the system for rolling for hits.

[Human Paragon 3]

I had an idea yesterday for that, where each ship section would have only a few hit points, say, 10 HP for the biggest ship, and then depending on what kind of cannons or ramming damage hits the ship, you roll a certain # of d4s. That way it'll be easy to keep track of what % of the ship is damaged. And you can attribute minuses based on percentage or fractions. Say, if 1/3 of the mast points are gone, you give a -2 to movement, if 1/2 of the mast points are gone you take a -4 to movement, two thirds is a -6 and anything more than that you lose all of your maneuverability. You can do a similar thing for Hull (1/3 equals a leak requiring pumping, 1/2 equals a breach that needs to be repaired, and anything more than that will sink the ship over a number of rounds) and the Deck (1/3 of the deck points gives a -2 to attack rolls and skill checks etc. etc.)

A very small ship (the kind that can be sailed by 1 or 2 people) would have maybe 3 HP per section, so light cannon fire would be a big issue (d4 damage could take out a section easy) and heavy cannon fire (3d4) would easily annihilate any section.

Maybe give a dodge bonus for a high seamanship roll (like the Mounted Combat feat in D&D), and of course there would be a size bonus to AC for small ships.

[Triaxx]

I was thinking Marines as used by revolution-era US fleets. Sitting up in the rigging and taking shots at enemy officers during boarding.

Bards are useful both to keep up morale, which should naturally begin to drop some on longer voyages, and if the Sails are destroyed, and you're rowing, a bard could keep cadence, and improve speed.

You might consider making Seamage a specialized Wizard. Probably take 5 levels of Sailor, and then become a wizard. Or say that normal Wizards and Sorcerors have so much difficulty casting at sea, as to be nearly useless. I'd almost say make a subset of Sorcerors, with Sea Dragons, and Sea gods as benefactors. Great enemies, perhaps in command of pirate bands of humanoid sea monsters are you going to have those?

You might consider navalizing Druids as well. Perhaps they have Dolphin companions that patrol for drowning sailors.

[DreadArchon]

You might consider navalizing Druids as well. Perhaps they have Dolphin companions that patrol for drowning sailors.

Don't we already have rules provisions for aquatic stuff for Druids?

Also: "Wild Shape: Fish... Warp Wood, Warp Wood, Warp Wood. Okay, we win. How much XP was that fleet?"

Hmm, we lack a good generic :Evil: smiley.

[Human Paragon 3]

Don't we already have rules provisions for aquatic stuff for Druids?

Also: "Wild Shape: Fish... Warp Wood, Warp Wood, Warp Wood. Okay, we win. How much XP was that fleet?"

Hmm, we lack a good generic :Evil: smiley.

I guess it pays to enchant your hull in a world with magic ship-to-ship combat. Also, to target a decent sized ship (Gargantuan) you need to have a caster level of 16... although you could target a plank maybe. It'd be up to DM discretion.

Some other enchantments you might want on your hull could be globe of invulnerability or maybe a high-powered deflect arrows that can chuck away cannon balls.

/Huzzah! Her sides are made of iron!

[Icewalker]

Yeah, magical protection will play a large role. Probably protections so stuff like warp wood wouldn't suddenly sink fleets. It could also make cannonfire less effective, thereby extending fights, when usually a few good shots will take one down. It'd also probably avoid the aspects of water corrosion and such. That'll simplify that mechanic (in fact remove it all together).

I like navalizing druids. That'll work pretty well I think.

Bards, yes. Been mentioned, gotta come up with some sea shanties for them for ship bonuses.

Basically the deal with wizards/sorcerers is that there will be VERY few of them, and they will have almost no place normally on a ship. No standard crew member of a ship should have less than 2 levels of Sailor, I'm thinking that's the point where you don't have to make constant balance checks anymore.

Sorcerers and Wizards would have to make horrifically hard concentration checks whenever casting due to rocking boats, even if out of combat or anything. Seamages wouldn't have to make concentration checks due to the boats, nor would the DC increase due to the boat if they did have to make a save (like in combat).

So all sea based casters are going to be seamages, which I think is going to be a PrC stemming basically from sailor 5. Maybe sailor 3.

[Angafirith]

Have you considered using the HP / Thickness and Hardness rules for smashing things? By using these rules, you save yourself a lot of work and make it compatible with standard D&D combat.

I'm quite interested in a system that would let you fire on things other than enemy ships. That's why I think using already existing D&D rules to model certain things is probably the best way to go about it.

A cannonball smashes into the side of the ship. Let's say that it's 1 inch thick wood, so it has a hardness of 5 and 10 hp. Let's say the cannonball does some arbitrary amount of damage, say 3d8. This comes to an average of 13 damage, right? It does 8 points of damage to the hull, mostly destroying it. Another cannonball hits, doing the same amount of damage. The section of the hull takes 8 points of damage. 2 of these points are used up in destroying the rest of this section of the hull, and the remainder goes on into the ship. If someone's standing behind this hull section, they get hit and take the rest of the damage. Lose a hull section and the ship starts to sink, with the number of rounds until it sinks somehow related to the proportion of broken sections to reasonably fine sections. If you were crazy, you could model an adamantine hull in the same way (though that would probably be pretty heavy).

Now fire that same cannon at a seaside shack that has 1 inch thick walls (kinda cheap, I suppose). It'd work in a similar way. Or perhaps if you're attacked by a sea monster, you could use those same armaments against it.

The smashing system also allows for some fun things. Perhaps you have a cannonball that has been enchanted to set off a CL 6 fireball after a certain amount of time. The cannonball is shot at the enemy ship. If it gets inside the ship itself (i.e. smashing through the hull or deck), it can explode inside it for massive damage. I'm going to assume that fire damage does normal damage to wood. It does 6d6 (average 21) damage to very creature and deck segment in the 20 ft. radius. Heck, you could even setup the enchanted fireballs similarly to a magical trap. Or maybe it's alchemical in nature.

[Human Paragon 3]

Have you considered using the HP / Thickness and Hardness rules for smashing things? By using these rules, you save yourself a lot of work and make it compatible with standard D&D combat.

I'm quite interested in a system that would let you fire on things other than enemy ships. That's why I think using already existing D&D rules to model certain things is probably the best way to go about it.

A cannonball smashes into the side of the ship. Let's say that it's 1 inch thick wood, so it has a hardness of 5 and 10 hp. Let's say the cannonball does some arbitrary amount of damage, say 3d8. This comes to an average of 13 damage, right? It does 8 points of damage to the hull, mostly destroying it. Another cannonball hits, doing the same amount of damage. The section of the hull takes 8 points of damage. 2 of these points are used up in destroying the rest of this section of the hull, and the remainder goes on into the ship. If someone's standing behind this hull section, they get hit and take the rest of the damage. Lose a hull section and the ship starts to sink, with the number of rounds until it sinks somehow related to the proportion of broken sections to reasonably fine sections. If you were crazy, you could model an adamantine hull in the same way (though that would probably be pretty heavy).

Now fire that same cannon at a seaside shack that has 1 inch thick walls (kinda cheap, I suppose). It'd work in a similar way. Or perhaps if you're attacked by a sea monster, you could use those same armaments against it.

Except a cannonball would obliterate a 1" thick plank. Maybe a 6" hull with 60hp would be more apropos... however, I like the idea of giving each section HP and giving the cannon volley a single attack better, that way if a ship has 60 guns you don't have to roll every single shot and roll every single shot's damage and keep track of every 10' section of the hull separately- and anyway, how would you determine where exactly on a 150' ship each cannonball hits?

Against a sea monster you could just switch back to D&D mode giving each gunner an attack with a cannon, which has personal combat stats. I'm just thinking it would be wise to simplify ship-to-ship combat this way to make things more abstract and easy to track.

[Icewalker]

Well I definitely like the using dnd hardness system. Stormwrack does, and their system sucks, except that is due to splitting the hull into 10x10x10 sections...which doesn't really make too much sense. Maybe a little...

I dunno bout rolling volleys as one attack. I don't think any ships have 60 cannons on a side, but some probably come close. But I have an idea:

The volley makes an attack roll, which determines how many cannonballs hit. Then you roll damage for them to find out if they make holes, hit people, hit a cannon, whatever.
One way you could determine the number hitting for a volley is by making a normal attack roll system for a single cannon vs a ship (d20 +blah -blah +blah must = blah) then when firing a volley, assuming the sailors firing the cannons are equally trained, you figure out the chance they hit and take that percentage of the cannonballs. (50 cannonballs: hit on 13-20? 8/20 = 2/5. 2/5 of 50 = 20 cannonballs hit.)


So for damage:
Roll cannonball damage as if you were hitting a wooden wall, if you deal enough to get through it, makes a hole in the ship, and may hit somebody behind it. The damage caused by making that hole is subtracted from the "Starboard hull" (or whatever) health total. So that would work for the 5 hull sides. Looks like we have a good half the basics for our health system.

Enchanted cannons and cannonballs are going to be a large part, definitely. Fireball wouldn't work though, as magical fire it doesn't have force, nor does it burn. Just magical fire damage. Going to have to make new spells that can damage ships that are similar.


On the sea-magic topic, basically what I'm thinking is either seamages have an improved counterspell ability, which I think lets them counter any spell with a spell of the same level, instead of just the same spell. Because the big thing for ship-to-ship mage fights is that they constantly have to stop the other one's spells. Defensive spells, counterspells, offensive spells in the gaps. Considering the power of magic, a couple good spells get through and the ship is pretty screwed.

Couple spell ideas:

spell that lets you see them more clearly during the movements of ships, so you don't have DC a million spellcraft checks due to distance.

I was thinking of shielding spells to stop cannonballs, but Wall of Force actually works perfectly. Except it is just 'impassable' and should be able to be broken by enough cannonfire or it is too overpowered.

Ship-bane Fire: Basically a miniature fireball, with a half-size explosion, that starts a fire which is extremely hard to put out.

Various spells that just shoot cannonballs probably.


Also, I like the idea of giving sea monsters ship stats

[TheThan]

Come to think of it, I think there is a prestige class for shipboard mages, think it’s called “ship’s mage” or something, it’s in stormwrack (I don’t have it with me or I’d look it up), and there are a few more like sea witch and stormlord for casters. There’s also some for bards like the windsinger prc. So I thing at least some of the work has already been done for you.