Dreamscarred Press - Path of War Expanded! (Thread VII)

[Swaoeaeieu]

At long last, part 1 of the Path of War Errata is here.

It's been a long time coming and it's not technically done yet; we're still polishing up part 2, which will cover the disciplines. We appreciate your patience and support during this difficult process. The team's especial thanks go out to Forrest, Taveena, and Keledrath, without whom this would not have been done at all.

looks great! glad to see less restrictions on the disciplines.
I have a feeling most complaints were about the maneuvers needing balancing. But i am super happy to see this!
Good job DSP
best as always

[Mezzaluna]

Thank you! I'm happy with lots of the decisions made in here.

Spoiler: Some early feedback:

Show

1) The new definition of Attack as requiring an attack roll might play awkwardly with maneuvers that replace them with skill check rolls, especially since I think skill check maneuvers don't inherit the other properties of attack rolls (criticals, nat 1 failures).
2) The Acrobatic Movement rule has the side effect that it makes the maneuvers more effective the later in your turn you use them, since they can exceed your movement for the round, but they still subtract from the rest of the round's remaining movement. Could it be made so it doesn't count towards your movement limit at all?

Small question:
1) Do you still get the maneuver trade when advancing to initiator level 4 if you raised it to 4 as part of taking a level in another class? (eg Warlord 3/Fighter 1 advancing to Warlord 3/Fighter 2 would be warlord initiator lv4)

[Tuvarkz]

IT'S HERE!
And now my opinion as someone who almost exclusively builds and plays Path of War characters, with easily 40+ sheets built across all level ranges, gestalt, and mythic.

CLASS FEATURES
-Maneuver swaps are now made with initiator level rather than class level. Lotsa help to multiclassing and PrCs.
-Combat Precognition took the nerfbat hard. Now it's about as good as Oaken Shield, with the addendum that it can block a nat 20.
-Murderous Insight gets its wording fixed AND a buff on top? Neat.
-Warder Extended Defense's new line might screw out counters like Oaken Shield, even if the intended purpose is more obvious.
-Warlord's Gambit got nerfed HARD. Seems like they want to kill Charisma-warlord. However, this does make Fate's Favored a much more vital pick on all warlord builds.
-Acrobatic Gambit got nerfed too, although this one was rather broken in many cases.
-Pinhole Gambit got NERFED. HARD.
-Gatecrasher gambit remains the same, although general nerfs to Charisma Warlord no longer make the ultrahuge no-save debuff as a viable method.
-Unbreakable Gambit got fixed, but now it isn't a viable replacement to Sanguine Perseverance (or another save replacer), due to the Cha nerf.
-Warleader loses one use. Irrelevant, as the ability is tbh rather weak in many cases, specially before Improved Warleader.
-Tactical Flanker gets NERFED TO THE GROUND, BABY. Charisma Warlord is dead! DEAD!
-Tactical Assistance becomes an AoE effect. Well, time to just slap on Helpful to get some use out of it, and maybe Benevolent on that weapon as well.

ARCHETYPES
-Stacking now works better
-Zweihander Sentinel is now THE Strength TWF build. Cheapest and 1.5x on the 'main hand'. YES
-Pathwalker now gets the uniform maneuver progression. It loses more bonus feats though. Still one of the strongest archetypes out there.
-War Souls now regain their psionic focus instead of expending it when recovering maneuvers. Great.

Prestige Classes
-More stances for the PrCs. Nice, this also helps with getting the 5th level flight stances on time.
-Minor Umbral Blade Embrace the Shadows scaling fix

FEATS
-New Advanced Study might just lock Aegis out of taking it, as Initiator's Soul doesn't give the maneuvers readied feature. This means that a 4-level PrC dip might be a new forced measure for most Aegides now.
-Deadly Agility TWF nerfed. It does 1.5x for 2handed finesse weapons as well. We might just see some more Nodachis now.
-Discipline Expertise remains a weak feat, worth 5400 gp in Ioun Stones at best.
-Martial Training: You can choose your mental stat, but no longer going off a physical one. Helps some builds, hampers others.
-Weapon Group Adaptation now works kinda like Martial Focus. YES!
-Greater Unarmed Strike scaling noticeably improved, nice.

System Mechanics
-Critical Hits and maneuvers-Slight nerf to non-dice damage bonus stances. Well, this nerfes the crits of size stackers the most, but it's understandable.
-Flying Initiators. I LOVE YOU. <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3
-Intimidate: Nice, Black Seraph Annihilation is no longer a must have for Black Seraph initiators, particularly because ATM Black Seraph Malevolence does nothing with the rework. It might still be a good thing to grab for Eternal Guardian initiators, however.
-Prerequisites: Nice, now it's a lot easier to do multi-discipline builds.
-Silver Crane now officially works for evil guys, and Scarlet Throne for shield lovers. Yes.
-Veiled Moon incorporeal fixes. Neat.

I like a lot of this. Except, Charisma Warlord is dead. Press F to pay respect.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Glad to see the update to Martial Training, makes a lot of builds more viable (Scarlet Throne magus! Yes!). Can someone who has maneuvers from Martial Training not take Extra Readied Maneuver?

[Fenryr]

I like a lot of this. Except, Charisma Warlord is dead. Press F to pay respect.

F.

-Martial Charge now allows charging through allies, through enemies (with an Acrobatics check), and through difficult terrain. HOTTEST FEAT NOW!

Uh, maybe it's a language barrier but it says:

obeying the normal restrictions on movement during a charge

It means you still follow the restriction of not bein' able to charge in difficult terrain? Or it's meant to say "up to twice your movement"?

[ChrisAsmadi]

Oh good, Steelfist Commando is less of an incomprehensible mess.

I'm still not sure if the flat-footed bonus damage from Powerful Pugilist applies just with unarmed or to all attacks, though.

[Tuvarkz]

F.




Uh, maybe it's a language barrier but it says:



It means you still follow the restriction of not bein' able to charge in difficult terrain? Or it's meant to say "up to twice your movement"?

Huh, for some reason I misread 'obeying' as 'ignoring'. Somehow. Probably overhyped and skimmed it.
Fixing that.

[phlidwsn]

When the errata is all set, is there a new printing / update of the pdfs planned? I'd love to update my BW copy to color if it came with the errata integrated.

[Tuvarkz]

Hm, gave some thought and numbermaking to the changes to Warlord's Gambit, and it's going to be a pain with the remaining Warlord builds as well.
-First, Fate's Favored is a must have trait now, since Gambit scales incredibly slowly otherwise. Incidentally, this also nerfs the early value of Unbreakable Gambit for Half-Orcs.
-Second, with many Charisma bonuses gone and Warlord's Gambit working on half-charisma, odd Charisma modifiers are plain not worth it. 16 CHA isn't worth the +extra maneuver recovered and the extra +1 to will saves (nor the +1 to maneuver DCs, but Cha is not getting pumped which means a debuffing build isn't as viable anyways) vs what could be obtained from putting the points in another stat unless the Warlord is keeping STR at 10 or lower and doesn't have 12 INT yet, since odd CHA mod is only 100% of the time more valuable than an increase to the WIS mod, an extra skill point per level being potentially more worth it (based on the build) and +1 AC +1 Init +1 Reflex (+1 AoO) being so much more worth it for a Str Warlord.
-This creates a soft cap situation, where outside of incredibly high point buys, we're going to see 14 CHA as the level 1 cookie cutter build, then 16 CHA with a +2 Headband for the midgame, 22+ CHA only appearing at lategame when upgrading the headband appears to be worth it.

I'd strongly suggest to instead get Warlord's Gambit back onto full Charisma, but cap it to +2 at first level, with increases at 2nd, 6th, 10th, 14th, and 18th levels. This will devalue Fate's Favored, and at the same time allow odd charisma scores to be usable, while fixing the issue of Gambits giving too high a bonus.

EDIT: Victory Gambit is plain terrible at this point, very little reason not to just take Flanker's Gambit instead.

[upho]

At long last, part 1 of the Path of War Errata is here.

THANK YOU! You guys rock!

So far, I've found no changes that seem unreasonable or hazy, but a LOT of great ones, several of them exactly what I was hoping for.

I was in a kinda bad mood before reading this, but now everything's suddenly all sunshine!

And now my opinion as someone who almost exclusively builds and plays Path of War characters, with easily 40+ sheets built across all level ranges, gestalt, and mythic.

Ha! I knew it! I've suspected you're actually an even more fanatic fanboy than me for a long time now.

Hmm... If I show this to people, you think they might start treating me as if I was a sane person? Wonder what that's like...

Except, Charisma Warlord is dead. Press F to pay respect.

F

(But why F and not C, as in "Cha"?)

[applied_people]

Could anyone state what type of damage you do when using a firearm as a melee weapon per the Privateer Warlord's Sea Combat ploy? Bludgeoning seems to make the most sense.

And when using them as melee weapons, what weapon group do they belong to? Still firearms? Close? Something else?

Thanks in advance!

Sea Combat: The privateer can treat ranged attacks with firearms against adjacent opponents as melee attacks in every way. He may initiate strikes and use feats and abilities that normally only apply to melee attacks (such as Power Attack) with such attacks, and uses his Strength modifier to determine his attack bonus instead of his Dexterity modifier. He adds his Strength modifier to damage rolls as normal for a melee weapon of the firearm’s handedness. The privateer may treat one-handed firearms as light weapons for the purpose of the Weapon Finesse feat, the penalties for fighting with two weapons, and similar effects. He does not provoke attacks of opportunity when making attacks in this manner, and may not use feats that normally only apply to ranged weapons while treating a firearm as a melee weapon. In addition, the privateer can reload a one-handed firearm while wielding another weapon in his other hand, and does not provoke attacks of opportunity while doing so.

[Sayt]

As someone who played. A TWF warlord and a Vanguard Defender in moderate PB games, I think most of the changes are fairly warranted, to be honest, as they were pretty monstrous. Also, a lot of the nerfs are, imho, quite smart sidesteps to tricky qurations like :how do tactical flanker and out flank interact", and "how do swift aid and tactical assistance interact?"

The only thing I would have liked changed that isn't is force of personality, which has redundant wording due to Paizo's ability score stacking, and doesn't (mightn't?) work with the newly reformed unbreakable gambit.

[applied_people]

Could anyone state what type of damage you do when using a firearm as a melee weapon per the Privateer Warlord's Sea Combat ploy? Bludgeoning seems to make the most sense.

And when using them as melee weapons, what weapon group do they belong to? Still firearms? Close? Something else?

Thanks in advance!

Reading between the lines here, but I think the simplest answer is that firearms being used with Sea Combat a) retain their damage type regardless of whether they are being used at range or in melee and b) they retain their weapon group type regardless of whether they are being used at range or in melee.

In my head, I was imagining the Privateer using his firearm as a bludgeoning weapon in close combat (rather than firing it)...which I think makes sense given the Strength bonuses granted. But per my questions above, that interpretation complicates things unnecessarily.

So I think I answered my own question, but I'd be interested in hearing other thoughts.

[Sayt]

Okay, actual questions on the errata:

Flying Initiators: If an initiator gains a fly speed from a stance or maneuver, he may treat his ranks in Fly as being equal to his initiator level, and may add his initiation modifier to his Fly check

Is the initiation modifier to the fly check in addition to, or in place of the normal dexterity to fly checks?

[Lord_Gareth]

Okay, actual questions on the errata:


Is the initiation modifier to the fly check in addition to, or in place of the normal dexterity to fly checks?

In addition to, my friend.

[MilleniaAntares]

Overall, I like it, even if my charisma-heavy warlords would be getting quite sad... if they were still being played.

However, on a specific basis, I am unsure why Deadly Agility has been changed to use the strength multipliers. I understand PoW TWFing is rather powerful, but wouldn't this just move things more toward dex 2Hing breaking things instead? Especially given how easy 2H has it compared to TWFing...

I'd strongly suggest to instead get Warlord's Gambit back onto full Charisma, but cap it to +2 at first level, with increases at 2nd, 6th, 10th, 14th, and 18th levels. This will devalue Fate's Favored, and at the same time allow odd charisma scores to be usable, while fixing the issue of Gambits giving too high a bonus.

I second this suggestion.

[Sayt]

However, on a specific basis, I am unsure why Deadly Agility has been changed to use the strength multipliers. I understand PoW TWFing is rather powerful, but wouldn't this just move things more toward dex 2Hing breaking things instead? Especially given how easy 2H has it compared to TWFing...

My guess? Precedent set by the the unchained rogue.

Also Dex based 2h still needs/wants to invest in Str for carrying heavier two handed weapons and power attack.

[Fenryr]

About criticals.

What about maneuvers like Elemental Drive? Is it considered extra damage?

Asking again, for a friend.

Has someone made a thread at reddit yet?

[phlidwsn]

Has someone made a thread at reddit yet?

Yep, thread is up at reddit

[Tuvarkz]

A lesser point to those brought up before, but any chances Double Weapon Finesse can be made to work like Polearm Dancing? Double Weapons are bad enough as is, and one feat less could do a bit of work towards that.

[Manyasone]

While i understand the change in the deadly agility dear i think it is dangerous precedent. Third party publishers should not follow paizo like slaves because they made an alteration. As it stands i am glad they haven't altered for instance psionics too much too get more in line with psychic magic in the sh*t that occult adventures is

[Ninjaxenomorph]

A lesser point to those brought up before, but any chances Double Weapon Finesse can be made to work like Polearm Dancing? Double Weapons are bad enough as is, and one feat less could do a bit of work towards that.

I'll second this; I played an Akasin Guru aiming to use a double sword, and I couldn't actually use it until level 3. And that was on a custom race that got Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat; otherwise, if you're not human and you don't get bonus combat feats, you'd have to wait until level 5 to actually use a bunch of your feats.

[MilleniaAntares]

I think it's a bit of a shame that warder couldn't get shield-focused class features for 6th and 12th level, so the zweihander sentinel wouldn't be such a straight power boost compared to the other archetypes.

My guess? Precedent set by the the unchained rogue.

Also Dex based 2h still needs/wants to invest in Str for carrying heavier two handed weapons and power attack.

True.

About criticals.

Asking again, for a friend.

Has someone made a thread at reddit yet?

Elemental Drive's damage is not bonus damage, but base damage. It will crit and deal x2 damage.

[Geigan]

Any suggestions for a stopgap for black seraph malevolence, while we await the PoW:E errata? I've got a build I plan to use soonish, and Black Seraph Style's line was on its feat list.

Thirds on the double weapon finesse suggestion btw.

[upho]

Any suggestions for a stopgap for black seraph malevolence, while we await the PoW:E errata?

Why does Malevolence need a stopgap? It has gone from allowing you to deal 150% of profane damage to scared foes of any alignment, to instead allowing you to deal 100% of profane damage to scared foes and have your weapon damage ignore their alignment DR.

I've got a build I plan to use soonish, and Black Seraph Style's line was on its feat list.

I don't really see how the changes to profane damage is a call for reevaluating whether you should invest in the BS Style chain or not. I mean, has there ever been a good reason to actually regard Malevolence as a key selling point of the chain, rather than its weakest link?

Thirds on the double weapon finesse suggestion btw.

Fourths.

[Geigan]

Why does Malevolence need a stopgap? It has gone from allowing you to deal 150% of profane damage to scared foes of any alignment, to instead allowing you to deal 100% of profane damage to scared foes and have your weapon damage ignore their alignment DR.

I don't really see how the changes to profane damage is a call for reevaluating whether you should invest in the BS Style chain or not. I mean, has there ever been a good reason to actually regard Malevolence as a key selling point of the chain, rather than its weakest link?

Fourths.

Um, from the errata.

Replace “Attacks that inflict profane damage inflict
an additional 50% damage to good-aligned opponents
or opponents with the good subtype.” with “Profane
damage deals full damage to incorporeal targets and
deals damage as if the weapon were evil-aligned. As it is
not a weapon damage type, it automatically bypasses all
damage reduction.”

and the feat

Benefit: You treat creatures that are shaken, frightened, panicked, or cowering as being good-aligned for the purpose of dealing profane damage to them.

With the changes, Profane damage does its DR bypass by default regardless of alignment. The feat however does nothing at all now, unless I misread that horrendously.

[upho]

With the changes, Profane damage does its DR bypass by default regardless of alignment. The feat however does nothing at all now, unless I misread that horrendously.

You're right with regards to a few maneuvers which only deal profane damage (such as Shadow Feather Strike/Raptor Swarm or Circle of Razor Feathers), but not with regards to maneuvers which deal bonus profane damage in addition to weapon damage (such as Ravaging Blow, Inner Demon Strike or Sharing the Dark Soul). So while I think Malevolence has become less useful overall, it also has become more useful for those focusing more on weapon strikes. But more importantly, the BS Style chain remains very strong for virtually any kind of combat demoralization build.

Unless I misread that horrendously, of course...

[ATalsen]

I’m pretty sure Black Seraph’s Malevolence does nothing now.

I can’t see how adding weapon damage in changes how the feat works.

It used to *ensure* that you got your +50% damage on “creatures that are shaken, frightened, panicked, or cowering” by treating them as good aligned. If they were already good, the feat did nothing, because the targets were already getting +50%. So it was a worthless feat in an “Evil” campaign where most enemies were good, but reasonably useful in a typical campaign where enemies were often Evil or Neutral.

The new Profane damage wording nixes the +50% damage and any references to Good alignment.


Profane damage (now) causes the weapon to bypass DR/Evil, but if the target didn’t have DR/Evil treating them as good doesn’t change anything.

Basically it boils down to:
In the new text of Profane damage, nothing is contingent on the target being good-aligned, and the wording of Black Seraph’s Malevolence allows you to treat targets as good aligned, therefore Black Seraph’s Malevolence does not interact with any of the wording under Profane damage any more.

[Dac]

Hoooooly mackerel. That's sure Warlord nerfs, right there.

[Mehangel]

At long last, part 1 of the Path of War Errata is here.

It's been a long time coming and it's not technically done yet; we're still polishing up part 2, which will cover the disciplines. We appreciate your patience and support during this difficult process. The team's especial thanks go out to Forrest, Taveena, and Keledrath, without whom this would not have been done at all.

I was hoping that the War Soul archetype would've been updated so to become compatible with the Nimble Blade Archetype (possibly by simply changing the War Soul's replaced blade skill from 10th to 8th level or something similar).