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    Default Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIV: ...And They Shall Know No Fluff

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    I'm new to the hobby. Which army should I start?
    It really depends on what you want to play. And how your meta-game shapes up. Find out what everyone else is playing near you, and play anything not those armies for best results. Otherwise, if you're starting from scratch with no-one really to play with - or, you've got a friend who is also starting from scratch - buy the Dark Vengeance starter box.

    What's Dark Vengeance?
    Dark Vengeance contains a rulebook and a bunch of dice.

    It contains roughly 850 Points worth of Dark Angels. However, it only contains around 500 points worth of Chaos Space Marines. Of course, if you're playing DV as it's meant to be played, you're never using all of the models at once so the points difference doesn't really matter.

    However, in practical terms, the Dark Angels are only barely legal and lack enough Scoring models. And, while the CSMs are legal, they're almost 300 points behind and lack anything that packs a decent punch. You will also need the relevant Codecies for your faction as it will dramatically change the way you play the game as opposed to using the reference sheets that come with DV.

    How much does it cost?
    The Dark Vengeance box, one Codex, one other box of your choosing, and a Starter Paint Set costs you about the same as a Playstation 3 and one game*. In both cases, you'd be good to go for about a month. This author thinks of most boxes as console games, and Flyers and Land Raiders are the AAA-Title Collector's Edition game. The difference being that in this hobby you can use all your 'games' at the same time, and continuously.

    Is WH40K expensive? Yes. I suppose it is. We all know it is. But, practically speaking, it's no more expensive than any other hobby.

    *Priced in $AU where everything is more expensive - although the ratios should be the same.

    Okay, I've got everything. What next?
    Play some games. Playing some actual games, is a far, far better learning experience than anything you could glean from the internet. Although we really would appreciate some stories and how you're finding your army.
    Find out what works for you, find out what doesn't (just because the internet likes something, doesn't mean you will too). You, more than anyone know who your opponents are and what they're putting on the table. You are in the best position to find out what you need to bring to the table.

    However, if you're still stuck. Just ask.

    How many points do I need? What size board do I need?
    There are ways that you can play 200, 400 and 500 point games using altered rules. But, if you want to play the game as-is, the recommended minimum is 750.

    The game 'balances out' at 1500. Most games should be played at this level since pretty much all armies get a fair shake.

    However, in other meta-games, find out what the local tournament standard is. Most people in your area should be playing at that points level. While you're at it, here's How to write an army list.

    As for board size; a 4x4' table can accommodate up to 1250 with reasonable room left for movement. But, after that you should probably look at finding a 6x4' area. The floor is never a bad start.

    I did what you said and I still lost. What gives?
    First, this game is all about dice. Dice are random (most of the time anyway), sometimes you just get bad rolls all game and there's nothing you can really do about it. It's best to accept it, otherwise you're not going to have a very fun time.

    Sometimes your opponent can make a minor change in his list - like changing from Plasma Cannons to Lascannons. That can totally alter the flow of the game and what happens when they next play you.

    Sometimes the terrain placement is just bad (or the terrain itself is bad) and right from Deployment you can find yourself getting shot at and there's nothing you can do about it. Really, this can only stress how important terrain can be to how the game gets played.

    And, lastly, maybe you just 'did it wrong'? Maybe you used [X] to shoot [Y] when they should have been shooting [Z]. Maybe you Charged, when the better move could have been moving backwards and Rapid Firing instead? There are all sorts of ways you can be out-played. You didn't just lose because your opponents' Queens are overpowered.

    Terrain? You said this hobby was only as expensive as any other.
    Yes and no. Most of your 'starting' terrain can be household items. Books. Soda-cans. Small boxes. Whatever.

    If you look around the internet, you can also find a few tutorials on how to make some really decent-looking terrain. Made out of what you essentially would have otherwise thrown in the bin.

    Only GW Terrain actually costs you any significant money. Making your own should only cost a few dollars tops - and your time and effort.

    How much terrain do I need?
    Up to 12 pieces is the official word. However, that can get crowded pretty fast if you've got big pieces.

    A better guide is roughly anywhere between 25-33% of the board should be covered by terrain. On a standard 6x4' table, you would want anywhere between 6-8' square of terrain. It seems like a lot. But if you divide that up to 7-12 pieces, it doesn't look like much. Or you could just put a 2x3' block in the centre of the board.

    I don't like using Special Characters, and I think Allies are dumb.
    Your opponents probably don't. Special Characters are pretty powerful and there's no real reason that you shouldn't be using them if your opponents are. That's not to say that all Special Characters are good - they aren't - and certainly don't get the impression that just because it's a Special Character that you need to use it - you don't. But some of them are still good and they do make certain armies a lot better.

    However, Allies, on the other hand. Are often a required part of the game. Some armies just don't have the units required to fend off other units. Does this make the game unfair? Kind of. But, GW doesn't update their entire range at once (it's a big range), and so some units are always going to be better than others. But, allowing Allies is a big step to evening the playing field.

    So which Allies should I pick?
    Depends on your army, and what units you already have. Ask in the thread.

    I can't paint.
    Like any skill worth having, you get better if you practice. 90% of a good paint job is just brush control - how much paint you put on your brush and where you put it. The other 10% is just colour theory (yeah, it's a thing). The most important tool this author has is a $5 Colour Wheel.

    But, on a more serious note, the only real reason that you need to paint is if you want to participate in tournaments. Well, that and painted models just look better - if you've practised, of course.

    Unfortunately, painting is a practical skill, not knowledge. The only person who can get you better at painting is you. Wraith has put together how you can go about Painting your army without losing your mind.

    Which army is the best?
    That's a loaded question. It depends what points limit you're playing at (at 1500 there really isn't one). But, there is no 'best' army. Plasma beats Terminators beats Mech beats Plasma. 40K is much like Rock, Paper, Scissors. None of the armies are 'best', as each army can be countered. Some armies are better than others, but there is no 'best'.

    However, as you play the game you will notice that your Codex doesn't have the units that beat another Codex. That's not to say that you haven't won any games, and it's not to say that your opponents' armies haven't lost several games to armies that just aren't yours. It just means that your army can't beat your opponent's army with what you've got available to you. That's why Allies need to be in the game.

    Wait, so there are bad Codecies?
    Yes. But, every Codex should be usable between 1000-1500 points. So, no matter what army you pick, you'll be okay within those points limits, or, you should be. If you find that your Codex/Army isn't doing well against certain opponents, and there's nothing you can do; You may need Allies.

    Helpful Army Building Guides


    Previous Threads


    Here's a bunch of Battle Reports for you to read. Plenty of army lists in there.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIV: ...And They Shall Know No Fluff

    ...Last time in the Playground

    Blackhawk was trying to get a Renegades army off the ground.

    ...We now return you to your regular thread.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIV: ...And They Shall Know No Fluff

    So something that got ignored in the last thread due to all the talking about the future of 40k-does anyone who uses Typhus ever actually use the Destroyer Hive ability?
    I have a LOT of Homebrew!

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIV: ...And They Shall Know No Fluff

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    So something that got ignored in the last thread due to all the talking about the future of 40k-does anyone who uses Typhus ever actually use the Destroyer Hive ability?
    I only have used Typhus a few times so far (having only bought him recently), but I've never used it. I could see situations where it's useful - say if you're fighting a challenge or tied up in combat and want some extra damage - but it's not super powerful and most of the time I feel like I'd rather not kill my own Zombies.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIV: ...And They Shall Know No Fluff

    So anyone expecting anything for the new tau codex? I heard something about new firewarrior weapons?
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIV: ...And They Shall Know No Fluff

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackhawk748 View Post
    Edit: Ok thats enough griping about GW for right now (we can always go back later ) Heres the core of a Renegades and Heretics list i came up with awhile back and im wondering what you guys think:

    HQ
    Renegade Command Squad 14 Disciples,Carapace Armor, Master of the Horde, Banner of Hate, command net vox-215

    Elite
    Renegade Marauder Squad Stalkers, 2 Meltaguns, 9 Marauders-125

    Troops
    Renegade Infantry 3 Squads 20 Renegades, 4 Grenade Launchers, 2 Autocanons, Militia Training-330
    Renegade Infantry 3 Squads 20 Renegades, 4 Grenade Launchers, 2 Autocanons, Militia Training-330

    Heavy Support
    Medusa Siege Cannon, Breacher Shells-110
    Medusa Siege Cannon, Breacher Shells-110

    Total 1220

    Originally i was gonna ally in Arhiman and some Thousand Sons, but then i found out that the TSons wouldnt count as Troops because of weird detachment stuff, so that got shot in the foot. So ive got 780 free points, with no clue what to spend them on.
    Not sure the Marauders are that useful myself. I guess you'll be using them for outflanking to snipe vehicles, but I feel they're not a durable or reliable enough unit for that compared to things like DS veterans. Two 5 man units of veterans with Deep Strike and a Meltagun is 120 points, or 100 points for a 10 man unit with 2 meltaguns, and they can hit vehicles that are further from the board edges and have more reliable-ish morale.

    As for stuff to add in, more artillery is always good, Leman Russ tanks are good, anything that uses blasts is good really. Allying in some KDK gorepacks would be pretty good since Flesh Hounds are really nice. Be'lakor is good, though there's not a lot for him to do in this list.

    Maybe pick up the dedication to nurgle and field a big blob of zombies, they're always nice.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIV: ...And They Shall Know No Fluff

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackhawk748 View Post
    So ive got 780 free points, with no clue what to spend them on.
    Hydras or Vengeance Weapons wouldn't go astray. Or anything that has Skyfire, really. If Fliers aren't a problem, then you can always go with Rapier Laser Destroyers.

    Chaos Marines, AD
    Be'lakor - 350 Points
    Cultists (x10) - 50 Points
    Heldrake; Baleflamer - 170 Points

    Total: 570 Points.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIV: ...And They Shall Know No Fluff

    Thinking on this some more, i realize that i want to go more for Renegade and less Heretic. Meaning i want a large mob of pissed off Menials, not a bunch of Chaos nuts. Now im aware that this shoots me in the foot for allies, but hey thats what happens when you build a fluffy army

    Most likely ill just add another Platoon like the first two, a Rapier Laser Destroyer, and maybe a Hellhound or two if i've got the points. Thats a ton of shots a turn with some good long range fire support. It also has the benefit of strategically being similar to my Orks, who are a bunch of Shoota boyz who pretend its WW1. I think my Renegades should be better at it
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIV: ...And They Shall Know No Fluff

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalisj View Post
    So anyone expecting anything for the new tau codex? I heard something about new firewarrior weapons?
    A better flier? At least I've never seen Tau players use them much.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIV: ...And They Shall Know No Fluff

    Why not just run an IG list and mod them to be all renegade-y then?

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIV: ...And They Shall Know No Fluff

    Quote Originally Posted by Manticoran View Post
    Why not just run an IG list and mod them to be all renegade-y then?
    Mostly because i cant get Master of the Horde, and the Renegades have a few things normal Guard dont.

    Ill be honest, its 90% no Master of the Horde, i love that ability.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIV: ...And They Shall Know No Fluff

    Quote Originally Posted by Manticoran View Post
    Why not just run an IG list and mod them to be all renegade-y then?
    Probably because renegades have a better mechanical representation of the rebellious rabble type army than IG do. Worse BS, no/worse armour saves, random leadership, highly variable gear, etc.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIV: ...And They Shall Know No Fluff

    Quote Originally Posted by Grim Portent View Post
    Probably because renegades have a better mechanical representation of the rebellious rabble type army than IG do. Worse BS, no/worse armour saves, random leadership, highly variable gear, etc.
    You can do similar with Veterans, Guardsmen and Conscripts representing different types of Renegade.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIV: ...And They Shall Know No Fluff

    Quote Originally Posted by Grim Portent View Post
    Probably because renegades have a better mechanical representation of the rebellious rabble type army than IG do. Worse BS, no/worse armour saves, random leadership, highly variable gear, etc.
    Heh. First page and I already get to reference the thread title.
    None of what you just said sounds like a positive, to me.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIV: ...And They Shall Know No Fluff

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Heh. First page and I already get to reference the thread title.
    None of what you just said sounds like a positive, to me.
    It generally isnt, but i like the army, and even with Militia training they are cheaper per model than IG, and just keep getting cheaper the more you take, thus letting me take more Heavy Weapons. And have Master of the Horde. Renegades Without Number!!!
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIV: ...And They Shall Know No Fluff

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackhawk748 View Post
    It generally isnt, but i like the army, and even with Militia training they are cheaper per model than IG, and just keep getting cheaper the more you take, thus letting me take more Heavy Weapons. And have Master of the Horde. Renegades Without Number!!!
    Yeah, but Guard Conscripts are better armoured than Renegades (with basically equivalent stats), for the same points and, more importantly, can come in squads of fifty. Okay, they don't get Heavy Weapons, but who cares? Sit a Heavy Weapon squad or four right behind them. Or take Veterans and give them Demo Charges, as the elite, crazy sons-of-dogs that are just as likely to blow themselves up as the enemy. Veterans with Forward Sentries make for cool guerilla types too. None of these guys can come back from the dead (no more Kubrik Chenkov :( ), but they benefit from Orders, Priests, and various other things.

    Or you can take Infantry Squads, and mob them up into squads of fifty, with a Priest leading, like regular Guard armies do, and refluff the Priest as a Demagogue. The Lieutenant is a... Renegade Lieutenant, or Ringleader, or whatever. Guard is a pretty strong army, after all. Take loads of Primaris Psykers as Rogue Psykers. Whatever. Ogryns can be Renegade Ogryns, or massive mutants. Ratlings can be stealth mutants or whatever.

    Ally in Dark Angels as Fallen, if you really want to. Ally in Ad-Mech as Hereteks. Ally in Inquisitors as Arch-Heretics, or Radical Inquisitors, or...

    Lots of ways to build an, on paper, Guard Army as Renegades, as Tau Sympathisers, as a Rogue Trader's personal retinue, as PDF, as Frateris Militia, as...
    Last edited by bluntpencil; 2015-09-25 at 11:53 AM.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIV: ...And They Shall Know No Fluff

    Quote Originally Posted by bluntpencil View Post
    Yeah, but Guard Conscripts are better armoured than Renegades (with basically equivalent stats), for the same points and, more importantly, can come in squads of fifty. Okay, they don't get Heavy Weapons, but who cares? Sit a Heavy Weapon squad or four right behind them. Or take Veterans and give them Demo Charges, as the elite, crazy sons-of-dogs that are just as likely to blow themselves up as the enemy. Veterans with Forward Sentries make for cool guerilla types too. None of these guys can come back from the dead (no more Kubrik Chenkov :( ), but they benefit from Orders, Priests, and various other things.

    Or you can take Infantry Squads, and mob them up into squads of fifty, with a Priest leading, like regular Guard armies do, and refluff the Priest as a Demagogue. The Lieutenant is a... Renegade Lieutenant, or Ringleader, or whatever. Guard is a pretty strong army, after all. Take loads of Primaris Psykers as Rogue Psykers. Whatever. Ogryns can be Renegade Ogryns, or massive mutants. Ratlings can be stealth mutants or whatever.

    Ally in Dark Angels as Fallen, if you really want to. Ally in Ad-Mech as Hereteks. Ally in Inquisitors as Arch-Heretics, or Radical Inquisitors, or...

    Lots of ways to build an, on paper, Guard Army as Renegades, as Tau Sympathisers, as a Rogue Trader's personal retinue, as PDF, as Frateris Militia, as...
    And with my Master of the Horde i can take mine in squads of 30 and get WS and BS 3 for 100 pts. Like i said, its mostly because i love Master of the Horde and just how cheap the Infantry are, Also are we really talking about 5+ armor like its significantly better than 6+? With who i usually fight im never gonna get the save anyway, so its really a moot point. On top of this, Orders just feel out of place in this army. Its a bunch of angry Menials armed with Stub Rifles who have had some Militia Training not a Renegade PDF force.

    Also Renegade Ogryn are amazing especially if you stick an Enforcer with a Chem Injector in the squad. Ogryns with Rage? Yes please!!
    Last edited by Blackhawk748; 2015-09-25 at 12:01 PM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIV: ...And They Shall Know No Fluff

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackhawk748 View Post
    And with my Master of the Horde i can take mine in squads of 30 and get WS and BS 3 for 100 pts. Like i said, its mostly because i love Master of the Horde and just how cheap the Infantry are, Also are we really talking about 5+ armor like its significantly better than 6+? With who i usually fight im never gonna get the save anyway, so its really a moot point. On top of this, Orders just feel out of place in this army. Its a bunch of angry Menials armed with Stub Rifles who have had some Militia Training not a Renegade PDF force.

    Also Renegade Ogryn are amazing especially if you stick an Enforcer with a Chem Injector in the squad. Ogryns with Rage? Yes please!!
    Renegade Ogryn also cost a lot to field. I'd say they work best in a Mutants list since they can get the mutant buffs for a pretty good price while a Horde army is better off spamming artillery and infantry platoon swarms.

    Also don't renegades start with no save? It's not usually worth the points to buy a save for them since everyone but guard ignores 6+ and most of the other armies ignore 5+ as well.

    I had that army guide written up somewhere in the last thread, but I don't think it was ever added to the list.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIV: ...And They Shall Know No Fluff

    Quote Originally Posted by Grim Portent View Post
    Renegade Ogryn also cost a lot to field. I'd say they work best in a Mutants list since they can get the mutant buffs for a pretty good price while a Horde army is better off spamming artillery and infantry platoon swarms.

    Also don't renegades start with no save? It's not usually worth the points to buy a save for them since everyone but guard ignores 6+ and most of the other armies ignore 5+ as well.

    I had that army guide written up somewhere in the last thread, but I don't think it was ever added to the list.
    Its either a 6+ or no save, and i dont much care as they'll be cover camping anyway. I also a agree on the Ogryns, Fanged and Clawed on them is ridiculous, they are also crazy pricey, but you are basically getting an Ork Warboss.

    5 Ogryn Brute w/ Carapace Armor-425

    For that you're getting, 1d6+1 S 5attacks on the Charge, Hammer of Wrath, Fearless (so their terrible Ld soesnt really matter), freakin Rampage, and they are all T5 W3 with 4+ armor. Now if you wanna get more expensive, you can go buy a Mark. Nurgle gets you FnP (big Surprise) Khorne lets you re roll your random attacks, Tzeentch gets you an extra CC weapon (seems meh) and Slaanesh gets you Fleet. So ya, grab some Nurgle Ogryns and giggle as they never freakin die and they spit out 1d6+1d3 attacks per turn.

    ......I think i may do this now.

    One thing im not clear on, is the Marks cost per model or for the unit?
    Last edited by Blackhawk748; 2015-09-25 at 12:58 PM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIV: ...And They Shall Know No Fluff

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackhawk748 View Post
    Its either a 6+ or no save, and i dont much care as they'll be cover camping anyway. I also a agree on the Ogryns, Fanged and Clawed on them is ridiculous, they are also crazy pricey, but you are basically getting an Ork Warboss.

    5 Ogryn Brute w/ Carapace Armor-425

    For that you're getting, 1d6+1 S 5attacks on the Charge, Hammer of Wrath, Fearless (so their terrible Ld soesnt really matter), freakin Rampage, and they are all T5 W3 with 4+ armor. Now if you wanna get more expensive, you can go buy a Mark. Nurgle gets you FnP (big Surprise) Khorne lets you re roll your random attacks, Tzeentch gets you an extra CC weapon (seems meh) and Slaanesh gets you Fleet. So ya, grab some Nurgle Ogryns and giggle as they never freakin die and they spit out 1d6+1d3 attacks per turn.

    ......I think i may do this now.

    One thing im not clear on, is the Marks cost per model or for the unit?
    Dedications are per unit.

    Chaos Hounds are a pretty nice way to bulk up the unit by the way, much cheaper wounds than Ogryn, though the lack of a save is a pain.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIV: ...And They Shall Know No Fluff

    Quote Originally Posted by Grim Portent View Post
    Dedications are per unit.

    Chaos Hounds are a pretty nice way to bulk up the unit by the way, much cheaper wounds than Ogryn, though the lack of a save is a pain.
    Oh sweet mother of god. So for 450 points i get 5, 4+ armor Ws 4, S5, T5, W3, Fearless, Rampage, FnP, HoW units with 1d6 attacks? Im so taking this.

    If anyone is curious 4 Warbosses w/ 'eavy armor and Grotsnik cost 416 points, and you have pretty much the same unit. So its totally priced right.

    The Hounds are nice, like real nice, but no FnP makes me sad.
    Last edited by Blackhawk748; 2015-09-25 at 01:14 PM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIV: ...And They Shall Know No Fluff

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackhawk748 View Post
    It generally isnt, but i like the army, and even with Militia training they are cheaper per model than IG, and just keep getting cheaper the more you take, thus letting me take more Heavy Weapons. And have Master of the Horde. Renegades Without Number!!!
    But it only happens on a 5+, it barely works anyway, and you're not even maxing it out. Your list is completely wrong for a Master of the Horde army.

    Renegades and Heretics, CAD
    Renegade Command Squad - 130 Points
    - (W) Carapace Armour, Refractor Field, Master of the Horde
    - Banner of Hate, Lascannon, Carapace Armour

    Renegade Infantry Squad (x30); x3 Lascannons, Militia Training - 160 Points
    Renegade Infantry Squad (x30); x3 Lascannons, Militia Training - 160 Points
    Renegade Infantry Squad (x30); x3 Autocannons, Militia Training - 130 Points
    Renegade Infantry Squad (x30); x3 Autocannons, Militia Training - 130 Points
    Renegade Infantry Squad (x30); x3 Autocannons, Militia Training - 130 Points
    Renegade Infantry Squad (x30); x6 Flamers - 120 Points

    Renegade Ogryn Brutes (x6); Carapace Armour, Nurgle - 420 Points

    Vengeance Weapon Battery (x2); Quad Icarus Lascannons - 150 Points

    Renegades and Heretics, CAD
    Renegade Command Squad - 45 Points

    Renegade Infantry Squad (x30); x3 Lascannons, Militia Training - 160 Points
    Renegade Infantry Squad (x30); x5 Flamers - 115 Points

    Total: 1850 Points

    Master of the Horde is only good if it works. Which it only does on a 5+. Master of the Horde applies to your army, so what you really want to be doing is spamming Detachments. Under ITC rules, you can only take two of the same Detachment, so whatever. Since I read the thread, I see you want to take Ogryns for no good reason, especially since they aren't even Infantry Squads.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIV: ...And They Shall Know No Fluff

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    But it only happens on a 5+, it barely works anyway, and you're not even maxing it out. Your list is completely wrong for a Master of the Horde army.

    Renegades and Heretics, CAD
    Renegade Command Squad - 130 Points
    - (W) Carapace Armour, Refractor Field, Master of the Horde
    - Banner of Hate, Lascannon, Carapace Armour

    Renegade Infantry Squad (x30); x3 Lascannons, Militia Training - 160 Points
    Renegade Infantry Squad (x30); x3 Lascannons, Militia Training - 160 Points
    Renegade Infantry Squad (x30); x3 Autocannons, Militia Training - 130 Points
    Renegade Infantry Squad (x30); x3 Autocannons, Militia Training - 130 Points
    Renegade Infantry Squad (x30); x3 Autocannons, Militia Training - 130 Points
    Renegade Infantry Squad (x30); x6 Flamers - 120 Points

    Renegade Ogryn Brutes (x6); Carapace Armour, Nurgle - 420 Points

    Vengeance Weapon Battery (x2); Quad Icarus Lascannons - 150 Points

    Renegades and Heretics, CAD
    Renegade Command Squad - 45 Points

    Renegade Infantry Squad (x30); x3 Lascannons, Militia Training - 160 Points
    Renegade Infantry Squad (x30); x5 Flamers - 115 Points

    Total: 1850 Points

    Master of the Horde is only good if it works. Which it only does on a 5+. Master of the Horde applies to your army, so what you really want to be doing is spamming Detachments. Under ITC rules, you can only take two of the same Detachment, so whatever. Since I read the thread, I see you want to take Ogryns for no good reason, especially since they aren't even Infantry Squads.
    I was gonna say i need more Artillery in this list, then i saw the Vengeance Weapon Batteries, so that is totally covered. All i can say is, dear god thats a ton of infantry.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIV: ...And They Shall Know No Fluff

    I was gonna say i need more Artillery in this list, then i saw the Vengeance Weapon Batteries, so that is totally covered. All i can say is, dear god thats a ton of infantry.
    Its the "the opponent starts to pain while you set up" army
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIV: ...And They Shall Know No Fluff

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackhawk748 View Post
    I was gonna say i need more Artillery in this list, then i saw the Vengeance Weapon Batteries, so that is totally covered. All i can say is, dear god thats a ton of infantry.
    That should win a heap of games if you play it right. I've been trying out infantry guard recently now that I finally have enough infantry to play worthwhile points limits with them and flooding the board makes it extremely hard for your opponent.

    Im not really sure how chaos renegades work but it looks promising.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIV: ...And They Shall Know No Fluff

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackhawk748 View Post
    All i can say is, dear god thats a ton of infantry.
    Isn't that the point?
    The more units you have, the more chance you can roll the 5+ that you need, otherwise your army is pointless. The other thing to remember is that you don't just get the unit. It's nothing like the old 'Send in the next Wave'. The unit you 'get' is placed in Reserve, not on the board - and that's actually kind of bad.

    The more models you have, per unit, means that when you eventually do roll the 5+, you get more free models. Effectively Summoning. Every single model in your army that isn't part of an Infantry Squad, is pretty much wasted potential. That's why I'm not so happy about the 400 Point unit that could easily be 3-4 more Infantry Squads depending on upgrades, which is entirely possible since the second CAD has <4 Troops slots open, so why not?

    I'd also seriously consider bringing a second Fort in the second CAD, such as an Aegis Line or a Fortress of Redemption instead of the Ogryns. Something that actually makes your Infantry more survivable since they have no Armour Save at all. Which means even AP- weapons kill them reliably if they aren't in Cover, and that just shouldn't happen. But, if you're under ITC restrictions (and I see no reason why not, since it's good), then you can't have the second Fort, and you should definitely keep the Vengeance Weapons - or trade them for a Firestorm Redoubt, or something.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ricky S View Post
    Im not really sure how chaos renegades work but it looks promising.
    He's basing his army around Master of the Horde; Every time an Infantry Squad dies, try and roll a 5+, then put an identical unit into Reserve.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIV: ...And They Shall Know No Fluff

    All I can say about this list is that it's more models than I usually played for 3000 points Skaven. So, have fun painting.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIV: ...And They Shall Know No Fluff

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    All I can say about this list is that it's more models than I usually played for 3000 points Skaven. So, have fun painting.
    Ya, not looking forward to that.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Isn't that the point?
    The more units you have, the more chance you can roll the 5+ that you need, otherwise your army is pointless. The other thing to remember is that you don't just get the unit. It's nothing like the old 'Send in the next Wave'. The unit you 'get' is placed in Reserve, not on the board - and that's actually kind of bad.

    The more models you have, per unit, means that when you eventually do roll the 5+, you get more free models. Effectively Summoning. Every single model in your army that isn't part of an Infantry Squad, is pretty much wasted potential. That's why I'm not so happy about the 400 Point unit that could easily be 3-4 more Infantry Squads depending on upgrades, which is entirely possible since the second CAD has <4 Troops slots open, so why not?

    I'd also seriously consider bringing a second Fort in the second CAD, such as an Aegis Line or a Fortress of Redemption instead of the Ogryns. Something that actually makes your Infantry more survivable since they have no Armour Save at all. Which means even AP- weapons kill them reliably if they aren't in Cover, and that just shouldn't happen. But, if you're under ITC restrictions (and I see no reason why not, since it's good), then you can't have the second Fort, and you should definitely keep the Vengeance Weapons - or trade them for a Firestorm Redoubt, or something.
    This is all true, and i may drop the Ogryns for another Fort, probably an Imperial Defense Network

    1 Bunker-55
    I Defense Line-80
    1 Defense Emplacement-40
    1 Firestorm Redoubt 2 Battle Cannons-220
    1 Vengeance Weapon Battery (quad Icarus Lascannon)-75

    Total 470

    Ill run the Ogryns and see how they do, if they underperform ill swap them for the Defense Network
    Last edited by Blackhawk748; 2015-09-26 at 10:30 AM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIV: ...And They Shall Know No Fluff

    Week 9 of getting my army painted.

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    eBay came along and gave me all the parts I needed to finish my Chaplain, and the Twin-Linked Heavy Flamer also got made. However, I'm waiting for a pair of Forge World doors to show up in my mailbox, so, this week I probably want to get started on my Bikes, should be easy. I hope.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIV: ...And They Shall Know No Fluff

    Nice work Cheese, they're lookin' gooood.

    I've said a few times (and heard others say) that you could randomly roll eldar units to make a decent army list. So I gave it a bash today. Rules were as follows;

    Generate HQ (they have 12 HQ's, roll a d6 to determine first 6 or second 6, then roll again to determine which HQ by order in the book)
    Generate wargear for said HQ, rolling a d6 to determine if they take the options listed (on a 4+ they do), then randomly generate powers (if required) by rolling a d6 for which psychic school they will generate each power from.
    Generate 2x Troops (same method as HQ, but in addition, determine if they add any additional troopers and if so, how many)

    Now mandatory slots are filled, roll a d6 for each additional unit.
    1 = HQ
    2 = Troop
    3 = Elite
    4 = FA
    5 = Heavy Support
    6 = Lord of War

    As soon as all available slots are filled, re-roll any reult that doesn't fit in a CAD.
    Generate each unit as per previous, rolling randomly for each option (including dedicated transports and all their oprions as well). Cease when you've reached the points limit.

    Spoiler: Randomly generated Eldar 1850 list
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    LOW
    315 - Wraithknight, Suncannon/Shield, 1x Starcannon

    HQ
    70 - Spirit Seer (Runes of Battle, Empower), (Runes of Battle, Protect + Conceal)

    Troops
    237 - 8x Storm Guardians, 1x Warlock, 2x Fusion Guns, Wave Serpent
    186 - 19x Guardian Defenders, 1x Scatter Laser
    51 - 3x Wind Riders
    60 - 5x Rangers

    Elites
    135 - 5x Fire Dragons, Exarch, Firepike

    Fast Attack
    95 - Warp Spiders

    Heavy Support
    389 - 8x Dark Reapers, Starshot Missiles, Wave Serpent, Twin Linked Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon
    159 - 3x Dark Reapers, Starshot missiles, Exarch, Tempest Launcher
    125 - 2x War Walkers, 3x Shuriken Cannons, 1x Suncannon

    1822 points.

    Use the remaining 28 points to either give the wraithknight a second starcannon and upgrade the other 3 shuricannons on the warwalkers to suncannons
    or
    Round the Guardian Defenders out to 20 models and get them another scatter laser platform.

    Switch the 6th Ed Serpent from the Reapers to the Fragons and it's a serviceable list (though you would forever hate yourself if you actually builkt a wraithknight with the cannon/shield).

    Stick the Spiritseer in with either the guardians or the fragons (assuming you switch the reapers serpent to the fragons) and either use shrouded or protect, respectively, to keep your dudes alive after getting out and popping something.

    Feel free to stick 3 of the Fragons/Spiders/Reapers into an aspect host for BS5 for free.


    Hmmm... Wonder what would happen if we did the same for CSM eh?

    Spoiler: Oh Dark Gods, why?
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    HQ
    165 - Fabulous Bill
    270 - Daemon Prince, Mark of Slaanesh, ML3, Wings (Symphony of Pain, Sensory Overload), (Ecstactic Siezures), (Life Leach)

    Troops
    67 - 10x Cultists, Shotgun, flamer, 4x Autoguns, Mark of Slaanesh
    139 - 5x CSM, Mark of Nurgle, 1x additional CCW, 1x trade bolter for CCW, 1x Melta Gun, 1x Gift of mutation (Feel no Pain), Melta Bombs
    377 - 17x CSM, 5x additional CCW, 3x trade bolter for CCW, 1x Plasma pistol exchang for bolt pistol, 1x Heavy bolter, Mark of Nurgle, Icon of Vengance, Rhino
    284 - 15x CSM, 3x additional CCW, 4x exchange bolter for CCW, 1x Flamer, 1x Power Lance (!), 1x Combi bolter, Mark of Khorne, Rhino, Warpflame Gargoyles, Extra armour, Destroyer Blades

    Elites
    190 - 5x Possessed, Mark of Tzeentch, 2x Gifts (Spawn, +1 Str to shooting weapon [note, possessed don't even have shooting weapons]), Icon of Vengance [note, they're already fearless, the Icon of Vengance grants fearless but still costs 5 points], VotLW

    Fast Attack
    153 - 5x Raptors, Mark of Nurgle, 1x Flamer, 1x Chain Axe, 1x Combi Plasma, 1x Gift (Crusader), Icon of Despair [note, raptors come stock with fear, the Icon of Despair gives fear but costs 10 points]
    183 - 7x Raptors, Mark of Tzeentch, 1x Power Fist, 1x Combi Plasma, 1x Melta Bombs

    Total - 1828

    What is this I don't even?

    Fear on a unit that already has it, Fearless on a unit that already has it, non assault combi weapons on units that want to assault, a Power Lance!, no heavy supports, a prince with neither MoN or MoT, no armour and 2 rolls on Slaanesh when you have no noise marines, mark of tzeentch on a unit with no natural invo, then madness just doesn't end.

    Do whatever with the remaining 32 points, nothing can save this random collection of junk.

    Switch a rhino over to the 5 man marines, stick Fabulous Bill in the small nurgle unit to make them fearless and enhance the khorne blob to make them fearless and get +1 strength, but there is not really anything you can do since you've basically got 30 footslogging marines with no punch and a number of MSU overcosted T4 fast units with no supporting fire at all.

    No. Just no.

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