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  1. - Top - End - #961
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIV: ...And They Shall Know No Fluff

    Quote Originally Posted by Drasius View Post
    Overall thoughts?
    Missiles/Plasma/CIB/Fusion on the crisis & Commander?
    Black Sun on 7/8 tanks to use remaining points?
    Not enough Markerlights?
    Trade some of the Rails for Ion?
    Gun drones on hammerheads for intervening model save and charge blocking or SMS for weapon destroyed protection and damage output when firing submunitions?[/spoiler ]
    I think Missiles is the way to go on the Battlesuits. In a list with only 4 Markerlights, you're going to want to consider going Buffmander instead of guns.

    Definitely trade some Railguns for Ion Cannons. At least one, preferably two. You'll want them to deal with MCs, which your list will struggle against as-is unless you get really lucky with your Breachers. Plus, Gets Hot is a non-issue with the AIF, so you've got the benefit of Wrecking Face

    Definitely Gun Drones on Hammerheads. With SMS they need to remain stationary and waste their secondary system whenever they shoot at tanks, while Drones do their own thing. Keep in mind, with tanks you actually need to cover 25% of a facing with regards to TLOS to get a cover save, which can be difficult with just a couple of little Drones. You may need more than that to actually get cover. Regardless, if you're going Railguns the Drones are definitely the better choice, and probably better with Ionheads.

    Really not sold on the Riptide. I think you'd be better off with a couple of Fusion Piranhas or something in this list, or some Fusion Crisis Suits. Or Plasma Crisis Suits. Or a pair of Sky Rays, with 40 points from somewhere else, would be awesome. Or, really, anything but a Riptide. He's going to be a massive target for every gun the other guy has that can't kill your tanks. You can hide Crisis Suits behind your tanks if you do it right, or leave them to Deep Strike. Doesn't work very well for Riptides.
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  2. - Top - End - #962
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIV: ...And They Shall Know No Fluff

    The buffmander is comped into unplayability, I can't even run a Mark'O with the amount of comp I'm already in the hole for with 10 vehicles.

    Another Skyray or 2 would indeed be great, but again, comped hard.

    Hmm, surprised about the lack of love for the Riptide, especially since he's my only deep strike defence and was intended as a bit of a trade off against not taking ionheads (though I think you're right about taking at least two ionheads).

    Maybe if I lose the Riptide I could transition into a hunter cadre with piranhas in FA and a token broadside for HS? Would help stretch those minimal markers a bit further, but I'd lose obsec, and that hurts on an av12 skimmer.

  3. - Top - End - #963
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIV: ...And They Shall Know No Fluff

    Quote Originally Posted by Drasius View Post
    Whichever unit you feel is most important (or conversely, whichever unit will survive less well without support) , go with the choice that supports them best.
    I think the better choice is Fatey in that situation. The Spawn are pretty ok by themselves (T6 really only being weak against D), and the Screamerstar could really do with extra Psychic dice and the reroll.

    However, guaranteed Telepathy from Be'lakor can benefit either. Either one being Invisible or Shrouded gains a significant bump. But, if both Sorcs roll on Telepathy/Bio, there's a pretty good chance that they get one or more of Invis/Shroud/Endurance.

    Against anyone bringing thunderfire and coteaz, your screamers are going to need to start in reserve or be annihilated but the Spawn stand a much better chance. Against thunderdome, it will be the other way around. I'd say the better option would be opponent related, but neither choice is bad. Fateweaver is 50 Points cheaper though...
    Well, I feel like with TFCs or other long range you're really talking about who goes first. Against anything like that, the un-buffed Screamers are going to be way worse off than the already beefy Spawnstar. If forced to put stuff into reserve, Fatey is nice as well thanks to his reroll (or a Comms Relay on an Aegis if I want one for the Horrors).

    In other news: I've played around with the double AIC idea and within the (silly) community comp restrictions have found a list I would like some comments on;

    Spoiler
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    CAD
    155 - Commander, iridium, stims, 2x missile pods
    166 - 9x breachers, devilfish w/sensor spines
    166 - 9x breachers, devilfish w/sensor spines
    156 - 3x crisis, 2x missile pods each
    190 - Riptide, IA, EWO

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    130 - Railhead w/Subs
    130 - Railhead w/Subs
    130 - Railhead w/Subs
    115 - Skyray

    Armoured Interdiction Cadre
    130 - Railhead w/Subs
    130 - Railhead w/Subs
    130 - Railhead w/Subs
    115 - Skyray

    1843

    Overall thoughts?
    Missiles/Plasma/CIB/Fusion on the crisis & Commander?
    Black Sun on 7/8 tanks to use remaining points?
    Not enough Markerlights?
    Trade some of the Rails for Ion?
    Gun drones on hammerheads for intervening model save and charge blocking or SMS for weapon destroyed protection and damage output when firing submunitions?
    That's... a lot of armor. The only thing I will say is that I'm not personally a fan of gunboats with one shot weaponry. They have a tendency to miss and then blow up immediately. Invisible Deathstars will also be your bane. Single shot guns don't have enough Volume of Fire, and the blast versions can't shoot at them.

    But, against lists that aren't durable deathstars or drop pod melta, it should do fine. I'm no authority on Tau by any means, but I know of several of my armies that would be quite scared of facing that.

  4. - Top - End - #964
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIV: ...And They Shall Know No Fluff

    Just what DOES counter an invistar? I run necrons, adeptus mechanicus, grey knights, and tau. And I've always had a problem when facing them.
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  5. - Top - End - #965
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIV: ...And They Shall Know No Fluff

    Quote Originally Posted by Drasius View Post
    The buffmander is comped into unplayability, I can't even run a Mark'O with the amount of comp I'm already in the hole for with 10 vehicles.

    Another Skyray or 2 would indeed be great, but again, comped hard.

    Hmm, surprised about the lack of love for the Riptide, especially since he's my only deep strike defence and was intended as a bit of a trade off against not taking ionheads (though I think you're right about taking at least two ionheads).

    Maybe if I lose the Riptide I could transition into a hunter cadre with piranhas in FA and a token broadside for HS? Would help stretch those minimal markers a bit further, but I'd lose obsec, and that hurts on an av12 skimmer.
    Ahh. Hmm. I don't actually know the comp rules you're working with, but I'll take your word for those options being off the table.

    I'd still suggest replacing the Riptide with something that won't be a target for non-AV weapons in the early turns of the game, though. The only Deep Strike attack that will really worry you with this army is the Assault Marines out of the Skyhammer coming down to charge three or four tanks at once, and that's a threat that can be hugely mitigated by careful deployment and almost negated by going first. Your list is built around negating half or more of the enemy's firepower, and that half of their firepower is all going to point at the Riptide as long as he's on the table. It's a Riptide, so it's tough, but I'd still think something else would be better.

    Not sure if you'll be able to do the Hunter Cadre, though. Not without cutting your commander down a bit. You'd need another squad of Breachers, and in retrospect I did underestimate how many points you'd need to spend on them. Or just a 5-man Strike Squad, I guess. That would work pretty well. Still, Breacherfish are pretty much the only way for Tau to play the ObSec game, so it would be painful to give that up.

    If I may ask, do you use the ITC errata there? If not, your army may not work as well against Death Star armies as it would in the meta where I first envisioned it, since you can't deal with Invisibility or Screamerstars at all. Though maybe those aren't things in your comp system? I'm sorry, my advice is based on my experiences with the game, which obviously differ in a fundamental fashion from yours.
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  6. - Top - End - #966
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIV: ...And They Shall Know No Fluff

    Quote Originally Posted by DaedalusMkV View Post
    Not sure if you'll be able to do the Hunter Cadre, though. Not without cutting your commander down a bit. You'd need another squad of Breachers, and in retrospect I did underestimate how many points you'd need to spend on them. Or just a 5-man Strike Squad, I guess. That would work pretty well. Still, Breacherfish are pretty much the only way for Tau to play the ObSec game, so it would be painful to give that up.
    If you're using a Hunter Cadre you don't have obsec anyway, so why stick with the Breachers?

    Minimum squads of fire warriors are an option, particularly when they can help out with combined fire.
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  7. - Top - End - #967
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIV: ...And They Shall Know No Fluff

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalisj View Post
    Just what DOES counter an invistar? I run necrons, adeptus mechanicus, grey knights, and tau. And I've always had a problem when facing them.
    Bullets. Lots and lots of bullets. Or a Culexus Assassin.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIV: ...And They Shall Know No Fluff

    Quote Originally Posted by Requizen View Post
    I think the better choice is Fatey in that situation. The Spawn are pretty ok by themselves (T6 really only being weak against D), and the Screamerstar could really do with extra Psychic dice and the reroll.

    However, guaranteed Telepathy from Be'lakor can benefit either. Either one being Invisible or Shrouded gains a significant bump. But, if both Sorcs roll on Telepathy/Bio, there's a pretty good chance that they get one or more of Invis/Shroud/Endurance.
    Yeah, agreed. I suspect fateweaver would have the edge, and, really, any list with a screamerstar almost requires fateweaver because sinking a significant amount of points into something that works on a 3+ and backfires spectacularly on a 1-2 needs some insurance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Requizen View Post
    Well, I feel like with TFCs or other long range you're really talking about who goes first. Against anything like that, the un-buffed Screamers are going to be way worse off than the already beefy Spawnstar. If forced to put stuff into reserve, Fatey is nice as well thanks to his reroll (or a Comms Relay on an Aegis if I want one for the Horrors).
    Take fateweaver, the spare 50 Points for aegis, then drop a screamer for a comms relay if you don't have the spare points. I really like it. Horrors do well behind an aegis and even better you can keep fateweaver off the table too if required without burning his re-roll.

    Quote Originally Posted by Requizen View Post
    That's... a lot of armor. The only thing I will say is that I'm not personally a fan of gunboats with one shot weaponry. They have a tendency to miss and then blow up immediately. Invisible Deathstars will also be your bane. Single shot guns don't have enough Volume of Fire, and the blast versions can't shoot at them.
    Invisibility is virtually banned in this comp setting. Technically you can take it, but it's basically 1/2 your score if you even want a chance at rolling it. It's never worth it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalisj View Post
    Just what DOES counter an invistar? I run necrons, adeptus mechanicus, grey knights, and tau. And I've always had a problem when facing them.
    A culexus in a pod.

    Anyone with enough dice to deny invis (so basically eldar, gk and daemons), extreme msu such as gladius and tau with enough Markerlights. The tau flier Formation that simply hands out d3 markerlights on a unit makes invisible things cry, doubly so if you're taking a hunter contingent as well.

    Also Kharn, because specific trumps general, and hitting on 2's is for winners.

    Certain builds with heavy stacking of reserve manipulation and sieze modification can render invisible stars ineffective, but that's a very specific counter.

    Quote Originally Posted by DaedalusMkV View Post
    Ahh. Hmm. I don't actually know the comp rules you're working with, but I'll take your word for those options being off the table.

    I'd still suggest replacing the Riptide with something that won't be a target for non-AV weapons in the early turns of the game, though. The only Deep Strike attack that will really worry you with this army is the Assault Marines out of the Skyhammer coming down to charge three or four tanks at once, and that's a threat that can be hugely mitigated by careful deployment and almost negated by going first. Your list is built around negating half or more of the enemy's firepower, and that half of their firepower is all going to point at the Riptide as long as he's on the table. It's a Riptide, so it's tough, but I'd still think something else would be better.

    Not sure if you'll be able to do the Hunter Cadre, though. Not without cutting your commander down a bit. You'd need another squad of Breachers, and in retrospect I did underestimate how many points you'd need to spend on them. Or just a 5-man Strike Squad, I guess. That would work pretty well. Still, Breacherfish are pretty much the only way for Tau to play the ObSec game, so it would be painful to give that up.

    If I may ask, do you use the ITC errata there? If not, your army may not work as well against Death Star armies as it would in the meta where I first envisioned it, since you can't deal with Invisibility or Screamerstars at all. Though maybe those aren't things in your comp system? I'm sorry, my advice is based on my experiences with the game, which obviously differ in a fundamental fashion from yours.
    Skyhammer and screamerstar both effectively banned too. Looking at giving up 2/3rds or more of your points for either.

    They use a different ruleset, but it's very similar to itc. Rule sharing in the contingent doesn't work if that's what you're asking.

    Your thoughts are much appreciated mate (and everyone else's of course) , a different viewpoint is always a good thing, and has given me something to think about, which is awesome.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tome View Post
    If you're using a Hunter Cadre you don't have obsec anyway, so why stick with the Breachers?

    Minimum squads of fire warriors are an option, particularly when they can help out with combined fire.
    Cause breachers in fish support the Armoured threat saturation and a boatload of str 6 ap 3 shots on the cheap are great?

    Yep, I would definitely be rounding out troops choices with 5 warriors with a turret, just to get more combined fire squads.

    Thanks everyone for your input so far, much appreciated.
    Last edited by Drasius; 2015-12-29 at 03:25 PM.

  9. - Top - End - #969
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIV: ...And They Shall Know No Fluff

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalisj View Post
    Just what DOES counter an invistar? I run necrons, adeptus mechanicus, grey knights, and tau. And I've always had a problem when facing them.
    Cheap, durable tarpits like Khorne Hounds. Invisibility of your own, or enough Psychic power to deny theirs. Stuff that autohits or has enough volume of fire/rerolls to just force damage through. GCs/SHWalkers don't really care because Stomp will remove it, as long as they can survive the combat (Thunderhammer TWC can punk a LoW pretty quick). An Invisible Wraithknight will generally take care of it in a matter of moments... but then there's few things that it won't

    MSU works well against them. Generally an Invisiblestar is large enough to multicharge a couple units, but if you've got lots spread out like Drop Pod marines, Battle Company, Summoning, Eldar Scatbike Spam, etc, you can keep them from killing too many points.

    For your armies, AdMech specifically, a Culexus in a drop pod + mass shooting should do rather well. Just drop on the star to cancel the buffs, pop your reroll Canticle thingy, and just trying to kill it as hard as possible before it can run away and rebuff.

    Tau needs lots of Markerlights to be super effective against it, but with AoC for Imperium, they can also do the Culexus thing.

    I have yet to figure out a Necron build that works against it. Wraiths aren't really killy enough and get instagibbed by Thunderhammer attacks/Gravguns. Flayed Ones have more attacks, more bodies, and are cheaper, but they have other issues (have to Infiltrate/Outflank, die to small arms easier, don't ignore armor saves). Lychstar is actually pretty good against it... if they can catch it, the slow speed of foot units really does a number against a smart player.

    Sentry Pylons with Death Rays autohit and double out most Invisible Star units, but are actually extremely fragile due to most armies having things like Grav, D, or other high-strength guns. You can boost their durability by giving them a Solar Staff and 5++ against shooting from a Cryptek, but without a better Invuln save or RP, they go down pretty quickly. Not to mention they need to be relatively close - max range is 42" (without being able to move), but average range is 34.5", which is well within the range of most guns that will deal with them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Drasius View Post
    Take fateweaver, the spare 50 Points for aegis, then drop a screamer for a comms relay if you don't have the spare points. I really like it. Horrors do well behind an aegis and even better you can keep fateweaver off the table too if required without burning his re-roll.
    I dig it. I kind of want to swap the Aegis for a Bastion, so I can hide Fatey/some Screamers behind it in case I go second and need to survive against ranged obliteration, but either way I think it's a cool army. Double star with enough flexibility to be played in a couple different fashions.

  10. - Top - End - #970
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIV: ...And They Shall Know No Fluff

    Alright, I've got a couple of questions.

    Psychic Shriek-Do I need to roll to hit? It says it's a witchfire, but I've seen it done both ways. Either an automatic test, no hitting required, or roll to hit, then take a leadership test.

    Modeling Chaos Furies-I'm planning on taking Dire Wolves (Vampire Counts) and adding Gargoyle (Tyranids) wings. Think that'd be a good look?

    This List-How does it look like it'll hold up?

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    Daemon CAD

    Troops
    99-11 Pink Horrors
    198-11 Pink Horrors

    HQs
    403-Daemon Prince of Tzeetch with Wings, Mastery Level 1, Lesser Reward
    598-Daemon Prince of Tzeetch with Wings, Mastery Level 1

    Fortifications
    658-Aegis Defense Line
    698-Aegis Defense Line

    Daemon Allied Detachment

    Troop
    797-11 Pink Horrors

    HQ
    992-Daemon Prince of Tzeetch with Wings, Mastery Level 1

    All the Princes will take powers from Telepathy, with the main one being Psychic Shriek. Use that to wipe out most models, with the Pink Horrors Going To Ground behind Aegis Defense lines for 2+ rerollable cover for extra warp charges.

    Total, I'm looking at 9+d6 warp charges per turn. 3 per Psychic Shriek, with the d6 for whatever other powers I roll.


    Pink Horrors-Can they generate anything other than Change powers? Warpflame... Kinda sucks. Horribly. I don't want to give my enemy FNP.

    Making Warpflame Good-If Pink Horrors can't get anything other than Change powers, how do I make Change powers worth it, what with Warpflame?

    Aegis Defense Lines-One Aegis Defense Line is 2 long and 2 short pieces, right?
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  11. - Top - End - #971
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIV: ...And They Shall Know No Fluff

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    Alright, I've got a couple of questions.

    Psychic Shriek-Do I need to roll to hit? It says it's a witchfire, but I've seen it done both ways. Either an automatic test, no hitting required, or roll to hit, then take a leadership test.
    Common acceptance says you need to roll to hit. Witchfires that aren't Novas say they need to roll to hit. Just because it doesn't have a traditional weapon profile doesn't mean it's any different.
    Modeling Chaos Furies-I'm planning on taking Dire Wolves (Vampire Counts) and adding Gargoyle (Tyranids) wings. Think that'd be a good look?
    Furies come on Infantry bases, and if I'm not mistaken, Dire Wolves are on the "long" or "bike/horse/beast" bases. If you're going to put them in some sort of standing pose, it might be fine, but the bases they come on are like 2.5x as long as an infantry base, so that's a no-go. They make great Hounds, though.

    Most Furies I've seen are just infantry choices of various kinds with wings.
    This List-How does it look like it'll hold up?

    Spoiler: Tzeetch Pyschic List
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    Daemon CAD

    Troops
    99-11 Pink Horrors
    198-11 Pink Horrors

    HQs
    403-Daemon Prince of Tzeetch with Wings, Mastery Level 1, Lesser Reward
    598-Daemon Prince of Tzeetch with Wings, Mastery Level 1

    Fortifications
    658-Aegis Defense Line
    698-Aegis Defense Line

    Daemon Allied Detachment

    Troop
    797-11 Pink Horrors

    HQ
    992-Daemon Prince of Tzeetch with Wings, Mastery Level 1

    All the Princes will take powers from Telepathy, with the main one being Psychic Shriek. Use that to wipe out most models, with the Pink Horrors Going To Ground behind Aegis Defense lines for 2+ rerollable cover for extra warp charges.

    Total, I'm looking at 9+d6 warp charges per turn. 3 per Psychic Shriek, with the d6 for whatever other powers I roll.
    1) Princes need to be decked out. Just having Wings and ML1 is basically a dead Prince. Take just one in the CAD, but ML3 and with Greater Rewards/3+. Lead the Allied with a Herald (again with higher Mastery Level).
    2) CAD only gives 1 Fortification slot
    3) Make sure you are in a meta that allows self-allying. It's not allowed in the BRB, just in most tournaments. If you do the above and cut an HQ, you can just make it a CAD with 2 HQs and 3 Troops.

    Overall, unless you're heavily Summoning, this list is... kinda bad, sorry to say. Pink Horrors don't really do much most of the time, and you're really depending on your Prince(s) to do a loooot of work to make up for it.
    Pink Horrors-Can they generate anything other than Change powers? Warpflame... Kinda sucks. Horribly. I don't want to give my enemy FNP.
    All Daemons can generate from Malefic Daemonology. But, Horrors are basically there just to generate Warp Charge, or Summon. If they don't get a good summoning power, they rarely do anything.
    Making Warpflame Good-If Pink Horrors can't get anything other than Change powers, how do I make Change powers worth it, what with Warpflame?
    Bolt of Tzeentch is pretty good as is, able to pop vehicles on an average roll. Since it's a Beam with high Strength and AP2, on a flying Prince (or Fatey) it can actually just line up and pop things really easily. Even if they get a free FNP roll, it's not before you kill a good number of models.

    Giving out FNP isn't bad, but it depends on the target. You don't want to give it to a unit that already has FNP, but if you shoot at a 5 man Marine squad, kill 3, and the last 2 have FNP 6+, who cares? They'll die easily next turn. And low Toughness models have a good chance of just failing and dying.
    Aegis Defense Lines-One Aegis Defense Line is 2 long and 2 short pieces, right?
    4 and 4.
    Last edited by Requizen; 2015-12-29 at 04:17 PM.

  12. - Top - End - #972
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIV: ...And They Shall Know No Fluff

    The issue is, I'm working with what I have. As it stands, I'm proxying all the Horrors. I don't really have a Herald proxy, though I suppose I could use Typhus or another Terminator Lord.

    Aw well. I just saw a Battle Report with heavy use of Psychic Shriek and they got killed too, so I suppose building a list around it is a bad idea.

    And yes, my local meta has no issues with self-allying.

    More questions!

    Modeling-Would using the Gargoyle bases, even though they're infantry flying bases, work? They're about the right size, yeah?

    Vindicare and Vengeance Weapons-Does the Vindicare Assassin's Ignores Cover special rule apply when he fires a fortification weapon?

    Making a Psychic Shriek List-What kind of list would be viable? Any point value from 500-2000. Relatively casual meta, so no need to be tournament worthy or anything.

    Edit: Macro-Cannon Aquila Strongpoint and Vindicare-It's nearly 700 points. Is it worth it?
    Last edited by JNAProductions; 2015-12-29 at 04:38 PM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIV: ...And They Shall Know No Fluff

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    The issue is, I'm working with what I have. As it stands, I'm proxying all the Horrors. I don't really have a Herald proxy, though I suppose I could use Typhus or another Terminator Lord.

    Aw well. I just saw a Battle Report with heavy use of Psychic Shriek and they got killed too, so I suppose building a list around it is a bad idea.

    And yes, my local meta has no issues with self-allying.

    More questions!

    Modeling-Would using the Gargoyle bases, even though they're infantry flying bases, work? They're about the right size, yeah?
    Maybe, measure it. If you're being really casual, I believe they're close enough, but if anyone complains about base size/measurements, you're really just asking for trouble. If it was just a pick up game on a game night, I probably wouldn't have a problem with it, but if you're already proxying the Pink Horrors, surely you have some other models on 25mm bases to use?
    Vindicare and Vengeance Weapons-Does the Vindicare Assassin's Ignores Cover special rule apply when he fires a fortification weapon?
    As it is part of his wargear and not the gun itself, then yes.
    Making a Psychic Shriek List-What kind of list would be viable? Any point value from 500-2000. Relatively casual meta, so no need to be tournament worthy or anything.
    Errm... maybe none? Shriek is unreliability at it's worst - roll to get off, roll to deny, roll to hit, roll to wound. If you have to Jink, it's borked. If they have Invulns/FNP, it's weaker. If you're against an army with good LD (like Necrons, SM, etc), it only has something like a ~50% chance to do anything.

    Sure, if you have it available, it'll kill squads of low LD models with minimal complaints, but it's not something to build an army around. At best, you'd have something like you are trying for, but at a higher point range where you can have 4 Princes doing that, but Shriek is almost always an afterthought after getting off more important Psychic powers. If you really want to make it work, bring Be'lakor and use Terrify to lower LD first.

    Witchfires are pretty bad, with a few exceptions. Your Psychic phase is for making your stuff stronger, getting more units, or debuffing enemy units. Witchfires are for the spare dice, unless you're sure you're going to do damage with it. The only time I see it being a priority is something like:
    -WC3 Flickering Fire with the +1S Locus to shred an Infantry unit
    -Bolt of Tzeentch to take off a last hull point or hit lots of units at once
    -Nova Powers since they don't roll to hit and do a lot of damage (hello, Purifiers in Drop Pods)
    -Witchfires that have some real great bonus, like the Nova Ignores Cover from Pyromancy, or the Poison stuff from Nurgle if you're up against high T.

  14. - Top - End - #974
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIV: ...And They Shall Know No Fluff

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    Edit: Macro-Cannon Aquila Strongpoint and Vindicare-It's nearly 700 points. Is it worth it?
    That was not addressed. Probably depends on whether or not Ignores Cover is granted by the Vindicare, right?

    And the Chaos Furies are for adding to my REAL army, not a proxied one.

    Edit: Spy Mask Rules: "All successful To Hit rolls made by a Vindicare Assassin, excluding Snap Shots, have the Ignores Cover special rule."

    I believe that means yes, it would grant ignores cover.

    Edit II: What's the size of an Apocalyptic mega-blast?
    Last edited by JNAProductions; 2015-12-29 at 04:56 PM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIV: ...And They Shall Know No Fluff

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    That was not addressed. Probably depends on whether or not Ignores Cover is granted by the Vindicare, right?
    Didn't see that one, sorry.

    I mean, it's extremely strong. 2 shot D blasts are what break the game, and aren't even allowed in some tournaments. But, it's bloody expensive, especially once you take the Void Shield (and you'll want it). ~700 points is a huge chunk of your army, even in a 2000 point game. If it's not doing some massive damage each turn, you're SoL. Drop Pod armies would be its bane, as would MSU with no real power target to shoot at. But, if you play in a meta where you're sure you can guarantee a target each turn and aren't afraid of losing friends, go for it. But the moment it gets blown up by D or dropped on, or the opponent just uses Invisibility, you're going to really wish you just had 700+ points of other stuff.

    And the Chaos Furies are for adding to my REAL army, not a proxied one.
    Well, you said you'd be proxying the Horrors already, pardon the confusion.

    Then, I'd try to make them as close as possible. While it might be fun to put them on different bases, if you intend to keep them as your long-term army, eventually you'll end up against someone or in an event where that will be a problem. You can buy a pack of 25mm bases pretty cheap from a multitude of sources, so it shouldn't be a bad conversion.

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    Edit II: What's the size of an Apocalyptic mega-blast?
    It's the big one in sections. 10" max, sections are 3" and 7". Or is it 5" and 7"? Can't remember. Either way, big.
    Last edited by Requizen; 2015-12-29 at 05:07 PM.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIV: ...And They Shall Know No Fluff

    For making furies you might be better off using VCs ghouls with wings attached, they're closer in size/pose to furies.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIV: ...And They Shall Know No Fluff

    5 and 7 iirc.

    Also, I second pretty much everything he just said.

    As an addendum, princes are bad as hq. Be'lakor is better for less points, as is a lord of change with the toys, and he makes princes heavy support.

    Be'lakor
    Lord of change, ML3, 2x greater, 1x lesser [trade for boomstick ]
    11x horrors
    11x horrors
    Prince, tzeentch, wings, armour, ML3, 2x greater, 1x lesser [trade for boomstick ]

    Is 1208, either add 42 points of whatever for 1250 or keep adding princes for flying circus list.

    Be'lakor casts shrouding, everyone stays within 6" and jink for a 2+ cover with a reroll. Your enemy brings ignores cover, a thunderbrick, d weapons or loses.

  18. - Top - End - #978
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIV: ...And They Shall Know No Fluff

    Yeah, probably not gonna buy the strongpoint. Not enough people would want to play it.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIV: ...And They Shall Know No Fluff

    So I've started painting purple Skitarii to go with my yellow Space Marines. Yes, purple and yellow. I still think that for $3.50, my colour wheel is the most important hobby tool that I own.

    How come nobody told me how easy not painting yellow is? Like, just don't paint yellow. It's so easy.

    And yes, I now have models with purple greatcoats.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIV: ...And They Shall Know No Fluff

    The Apocalyptic Mega-Blast is 5"/10"/15".

    The Quake Shell is S 10/7/5 AP 1/4/6.

    I really, really like the look of that. With BS 8 from a Vindicare, it can't even possibly miss its main target. (4" scatter on a 12, 5" on the central blast.)

    I SO WANT TO TRY THIS!
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIV: ...And They Shall Know No Fluff

    Building on a Budget: Grey Knights

    Grey Knights are literally the best weapons that mankind has to offer. Every single one of them is a Psyker, and they're all Space Marines. They're an entire Chapter of Librarians. Why would you not want to play them? In addition, they have Troops models that cost 33 Points per model. That's going to get you to 1850 Points taking units that you'll probably want to be taking anyway. Which that in mind

    Rule #1; Get to 1850 as cheaply as possible, while
    Rule #2; Not being bad.

    Rule #2 says that deliberately taking units because they are expensive points-wise is not allowed. Because that's being bad. But, Grey Knights' expensive units are actually good. You want to take those units that would normally be considered 'bad' in any other army. Score!

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    You can basically pick any HQ you want. Every single one of them (except the Techmarine) is 0.2 or under. So, while we could pick other, cheaper options, we probably wont save that much money. So let's just go with the best option;

    (0.20) (W) Librarian; ML3, Melta Bombs, Domina Liber Daemonica - 165 Points

    He's effectively an ML4 Librarian, in Terminator Armour. Now, he really wants a Nemesis Daemon Hammer for 5 Points. But, the model comes with a Staff, and Melta Bombs are the same points. If you really need that S8 Force Weapon, roll up Hammerhand and you'll be good. So, yeah. That's Warlord taken care of. One of the best models in the book. So easy.

    So, Troops;

    (0.42) Strike Knights (x5); Incinerator, x1 Nemesis Daemon Hammer, Melta Bombs - 130 Points
    (0.39) Terminators (x5); Incinerator, x1 Nemesis Daemon Hammer, Melta Bombs - 190 Points

    The extra currency cost of the Terminators is offset by the fact that they cost more points. Anyway, Strike Knights are functionally identical to Terminators, except that Terminators have 2 attacks each and 2+/5++. The Strike Knight with the Incinerator loses his Melee weapon, while the Terminator doesn't. In any case, Terminators are far superior to Strike Knights, and, they just so happen to be a tiny bit more efficient. It's not even a question.

    (0.39) Terminators (x5); Incinerator, x1 Nemesis Daemon Hammer, Melta Bombs - 190 Points
    (0.39) Terminators (x5); Incinerator, x1 Nemesis Daemon Hammer, Melta Bombs - 190 Points
    (0.39) Terminators (x5); Incinerator, x1 Nemesis Daemon Hammer, Melta Bombs - 190 Points
    (0.39) Terminators (x5); Incinerator, x1 Nemesis Daemon Hammer, Melta Bombs - 190 Points

    Incinerators are S6, AP4, Template weapons. In a meta that is more and more frequently 'T3, 4+/FNP, Cover save', Incinerators are arguably one of the - if not the - best weapons in the game for killing Infantry, and Grey Knights can take lots of them. If your meta is T4, 3+ Armour, then it really doesn't matter what you take. Yes, Terminators are Relentless, and yes Psycannons have Rending. Still, an Incinerator is half the points.
    However, it's worth mentioning that the Strike Knight box comes with two Psycannons, not one.

    Well, we've got Infantry-killing in spades. We now need to be killing Vehicles. Unfortunately, there's not a whole lot of leeway in the Grey Knights' book. Every single Terminator you own could be taking a Daemon Hammer. But, you only get one per box, so that means trawling auction sites for parts, or PROTIP: Buying a Terminator Assault Squad box, using the Hammers out of that box and then making Lightning Claw Terminators. However, there aren't a great deal of uses for Claw-Terminators, so, don't do that unless you have a plan.

    (0.49) Nemesis Dreadknight; Personal Teleporter, Heavy Incinerator, Daemon Hammer - 185 Points

    Remember how Strike Knights come with two Psycannons per sprue? Well, if you buy two boxes (or one of those boxes of ten), that gives you four Psycannons. We've established that the efficiency between Strike Knights and Terminators is basically 'nil, so it's not like you're losing money, just that Terminators are better. Still, we need two boxes of Strike Knights to get four 'Cannons. So, let's get rid of one of those Terminators, and save ourselves a bit of money since we probably don't need five Troops units.

    Terminators (x5); Incinerator, x1 Nemesis Daemon Hammer, Melta Bombs - 190 Points

    (0.39) Strike Knights (x5); Incinerator, x1 Nemesis Daemon Hammer, Melta Bombs - 130 Points
    (0.32) Purgators (x5); x4 Psycannons - 170 Points

    Purgators also have Night Vision, to get rid of Stealth on the first turn during Night Fight. Y'know, just in case you aren't ruining people who enjoy Cover Saves' day enough. S7 Rending isn't the best. But it's the best you've got. Because of the silly number of shots that four Psycannons churn out, they can also serve as Flier defense in a pinch, doubly so if you're playing against Daemons. The main problem with Purgators is that you need two boxes to make one (good) unit, and that's simply not viable if you want to spam them.

    So, where are we at?

    (W) Librarian; ML3, Melta Bombs, Domina Liber Daemonica - 165 Points

    Strike Knights (x5); Incinerator, x1 Nemesis Daemon Hammer, Melta Bombs - 130 Points
    Terminators (x5); Incinerator, x1 Nemesis Daemon Hammer, Melta Bombs - 190 Points
    Terminators (x5); Incinerator, x1 Nemesis Daemon Hammer, Melta Bombs - 190 Points
    Terminators (x5); Incinerator, x1 Nemesis Daemon Hammer, Melta Bombs - 190 Points

    Purgators (x5); x4 Psycannons - 170 Points

    Total: 1035 Points

    Well, we've established that having another unit of Purgators simply isn't viable on our wallet. So...

    (0.49) Nemesis Dreadknight; Personal Teleporter, Heavy Incinerator, Daemon Hammer - 185 Points

    Unfortunately, running our Dreadknight by himself is asking for trouble. Let's give him some backup.

    (0.37) Interceptors (x5); Incinerator, x1 Nemesis Daemon Hammer, Melta Bombs - 150 Points

    Much cheaper than a second Dreadknight. But, do you know what's cool about Grey Knights? Pretty much everything is built using the same kit, and now we have another two Psycannons. So, if we want to buy another box, we have four Psycannons, and look! It's a second unit of Purgators!

    (0.32) Purgators (x5); x4 Psycannons - 170 Points

    You now have even more Flier defense if you need it, too. Since it's not like you're going to pick up a Stormraven (0.55) anytime soon.

    Total: 1540 Points.
    We're getting pretty close to the end. Maybe we should start thinking about a bodyguard unit for our Warlord. There are two options; Purifierers give our Warlord Fearless (which does matter), but, since Marines can't be Swept, it's not like losing Assault matters, since if you die to shooting attacks, you'll just ATSKNF back into the fight next turn. Besides, a unit with a 3+ save and no Invulnerable isn't a particularly good bodyguard unit for our Warlord.

    (0.23) Paladins (x5); Apothecary, Incinerator, x1 Nemesis Daemon Hammer - 315 Points

    Wait...0.23? Why not just make a whole army out of Paladins and save heaps of money? Like a lot?
    Because we're not being bad.

    In any case, we're now at 1855, so let's drop Melta Bombs off of those Strike Knights.


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    (W) Librarian; ML3, Melta Bombs, Domina Liber Daemonica - 165 Points

    Strike Knights (x5); Incinerator, x1 Nemesis Daemon Hammer - 125 Points
    Terminators (x5); Incinerator, x1 Nemesis Daemon Hammer, Melta Bombs - 190 Points
    Terminators (x5); Incinerator, x1 Nemesis Daemon Hammer, Melta Bombs - 190 Points
    Terminators (x5); Incinerator, x1 Nemesis Daemon Hammer, Melta Bombs - 190 Points

    Paladins (x5); Apothecary, Incinerator, x1 Nemesis Daemon Hammer - 315 Points

    Interceptors (x5); Incinerator, x1 Nemesis Daemon Hammer, Melta Bombs - 150 Points

    Purgators (x5); x4 Psycannons - 170 Points
    Purgators (x5); x4 Psycannons - 170 Points
    Nemesis Dreadknight; Personal Teleporter, Heavy Incinerator, Daemon Hammer - 185 Points

    Total: 1850 Points

    The only models in the list that can't Deep Strike are the Purgators.


    0.34. Not the cheapest by any stretch. Orks come with a single 800 Point model, and Dark Angels and Chaos Marines both can abuse the Dark Vengeance set. Blood Angels are slightly cheaper, but they're bad. Now, if you want to hard derp mode into 3 units of Paladins (0.23), you can do that. But you should never go full derp mode. You can save a bunch of money by dropping the Strike Knights and a unit of Purgators, and picking up Kaldor Draigo (0.16). But, it's not really worth it. Since those 16, S7 Rending shots that ignore Night Fighting are quite good. Especially if you plan on holding your Purgators on Objectives so you don't lose, and those Strike Knights are ObSec, and anyone who tells you that ObSec doesn't matter are kidding themselves.

    But that's what BoaB is all about, isn't it? Do you want to win games? Or do you want to spend less money? You want to try and do both, right?
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  22. - Top - End - #982
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIV: ...And They Shall Know No Fluff

    No double strikeforce? I would have thought double Libby, 10+ termies and 4 dk's would have been a much stronger list for not much more money?

  23. - Top - End - #983
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIV: ...And They Shall Know No Fluff

    Quote Originally Posted by Drasius View Post
    No double strikeforce?
    ...Maybe if we were living in 2014.
    With Eldar having ObSec'd Jetbikes running around everywhere, with Space Marines getting ObSec'd everything, not having ObSec in your army list really, really matters. Unless you can somehow table your opponent. Generally this will involve having a metric poop-ton of Hammers, which you don't have if you're buying the boxes straight.

    Strike Forces are excellent when Allied to another army. I didn't do that, so therefore Strike Forces aren't as good.

    Grey Knights, Nemesis Strike Force
    Librarian; ML3, Melta Bombs, Domina Liber Daemonica - 165 Points

    Terminators (x5); Incinerator, x1 Nemesis Daemon Hammer, Melta Bombs - 190 Points

    Paladins (x10); Apothecary, Brotherhood Banner, x2 Incinerators, x2 Nemesis Daemon Hammers - 635 Points
    Paladins (x5); Apothecary, Incinerator, x1 Nemesis Daemon Hammer - 315 Points
    Paladins (x5); Incinerator, x1 Nemesis Daemon Hammer, Melta Bombs - 300 Points

    (W) Kaldor Draigo - 245 Points

    Total: 1850

    Cheapest army in the game (even cheaper than the Orks with Stompa). But, honestly? It looks terrible. You could probably stack all four of your Paladin Hammers into the big unit, and I'm sure with points shuffling, you can find a way to give one of the smaller Paladin units double Psycannons.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIV: ...And They Shall Know No Fluff

    No budget non-eldar list is going to be able to complete with scatbikes or Gladius anyway, so not having obsec doesn't matter against those armies because taking a small amount of 2+ save models against overwhelming volume of fire means you're dead, obsec or not.

  25. - Top - End - #985
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIV: ...And They Shall Know No Fluff

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalisj View Post
    Just what DOES counter an invistar? I run necrons, adeptus mechanicus, grey knights, and tau. And I've always had a problem when facing them.
    If you're playing ITC format, Blast and Template weapons and melee are the key to success. ITC-Invis does nothing whatsoever to Template weapons and very little to Blasts, so just spamming Pie Plates/Wyverns at them is typically an extremely valid response, and since you're only WS1 instead of hitting on 6s in melee just running in there and hitting them really hard usually does the job as well, especially if you have rerolls. I've got a Grey Knight army that mostly considers Invisibility quaintly amusing at best because, hey, I can still drop 8 Incinerators on you pretty much at will, and you probably aren't going to enjoy 30+ S6 hits any more than anything else does, and I'm still fully capable of punching your face in in melee once that's all said and done.

    If you aren't playing ITC format? Uhh, what other people said, but that's kind of the point of the ITC nerf. Invis is too good, therefore make it worse until it is no longer almost impossible to do anything about.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIV: ...And They Shall Know No Fluff

    Kind of a weird question, but has anyone ever seen anyone use the long muzzled Imperial Knight facepiece?

    I ask because I was looking at the kit and I can't get over how staggeringly ugly that faceplate is and I'm wondering if anyone actually uses it.
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIV: ...And They Shall Know No Fluff

    Yep, one of the guys up here even asked if I was using mine (ahahahahahaha, no.) and asked if he could have it to retrofit onto one of his original knights that wasn't painted yet. I let him since I can't imagine ever wanting to use that pig-snout faceplate. A couple of others have used it too for some odd reason.

    People are weird.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIV: ...And They Shall Know No Fluff

    If you want a bulldog look for your knights, it works - has a very different personality to the others.
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  29. - Top - End - #989
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIV: ...And They Shall Know No Fluff

    I used my seer council in a 1500pts game today. I used eldrad, a farseer, 5 warlocks and had a separate farseer in another unit. The unit performed admirably and was extremely tanky, absorbing fire from the majority of the opponents shooting and proving to be a huge distraction but deadly as well because of eldritch storm and spears.

    Ill have to see how my next game on sat turns out but so far the unit is really fun to play.
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  30. - Top - End - #990
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIV: ...And They Shall Know No Fluff

    Quick mock up of a Berzerker conversion I'm working on. Planning to do about 20 guys like this for a Fist of Khorne. Would ideally replace all my chaos marines with similar stuff.

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