Help applying the Lycanthropy template.

[Tyger]

OK, trying to wrap my brain around something...

A level 7 Ranger gets afflicted with the Lycanthropy template via a were-wolf bite.

So, is he a level 7 ranger, with a +2LA, so ECL 9?

Or, is he a level 7 Ranger, with 2 levels of Animal (Wolf) and a +2LA, so ECL 11?

If its the second, does the character get, immediately, the HP and BAB etc. bonuses of the two levels of animal?

[Shhalahr Windrider]

He is the second option. ECL 11.

By standard rules, he'd get all that immediately. However, there exist Savage Species-style class progressions for afflicted lycanthropes that allow you to apply the template gradually over the course of four levels.

You can find the class progression on the WotC website: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040117a

[henebry]

Hit Dice and Hit Points
Same as the base creature plus those of the base animal. To calculate total hit points, apply Constitution modifiers according to the score the lycanthrope has in each form.
Level Adjustment
Same as the base creature +2 (afflicted) or +3 (natural). In addition, a lycanthrope’s character level is increased by the number of racial Hit Dice the base animal has.

So 7 ranger hit dice + 2 wolf hit dice for a character level 9, plus LA +2, for a total ECL 11.

I should add that the character gains the higher hit points and BAB immediately, but pays for them over the long run in earning less exp that he otherwise would and in being unable to take another character level until he's accumulated sufficient exp to give him character level 12.

[Tyger]

Perfect. That's pretty much what I thought.

The player is torn now, on whether or not this is a good thing. I've explained all the benefits, and I think he's going to go for it. Now that he knows he's getting an immediate 2d8+8 HP and another +1 on his BAB, he may just think its even better!

Though how do the saves apply? Wolves have saves of:

Fort +5 (with a Con bonus of 2 so base of 3)
Refl +5 (with a Dex bonus of 2 so a base of 3)
Will +1 (with a Wis bonus of 1 so base of 0).

Does that mean in addition to the 2d8+8 (his con is 18) HP and the BAB +1, he's also going to get an addition +3 to his fort and refl saves? And is there anything else that I am missing with the wolf levels? I think we've got the basics down for the lycan template, just the wolf bonus levesl that are the problem. Sort of new to the whole template acquisition thing.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Does that mean in addition to the 2d8+8 (his con is 18) HP and the BAB +1, he's also going to get an addition +3 to his fort and refl saves? And is there anything else that I am missing with the wolf levels?

Yes. He gets everything that comes with extra hit dice. Hit points, BAB, saves, skills, feats, ability increases, and so on.

Since it's a 7th level ranger, he'll be eligible for an 8th level ability increase and a 9th level feat.

Oh yeah, and when explaining the benefits, don't forget the drawbacks. He'll gain XP at a slower rate than his party members until they catch up. If you're gonna go epic, it may affect how you wind up applying epic attack and save bonuses. And don't forget potential alignment shifts involved with voluntary changes. Going on involuntary killing sprees three nights a month can be pretty nasty, too.

[Fax Celestis]

You might want to let him buy off the level adjustment.

[The Prince of Cats]

The other thing worth noting is that class HD use the human con-bonus, animal HD use the animal con-bonus.

There is nothing quite like trying to explain to a player that they now have 6d6+6 hp + 2d8+8 hp. In the end, I explained it as 'shut up and eat your wolfsbane...'

I think the lycanthropy could probably use some work. Most players just shouldn't be given that kind of power. DR 5/silver doesn't sound like much until you end up realising that very few people use silver weapons. The stat-bonus for a were-bear is pure twinky goodness as well... (Str +16, Dex +2, Con +8???)

[Accersitus]

I think your ranger would slide more and more towards CE (not sure, but I think the were wolf is CE) by the RAW, that could be a bad thing in a party if there are mostly good/goodish PCs

[Shhalahr Windrider]

The other thing worth noting is that class HD use the human con-bonus, animal HD use the animal con-bonus.

Huh?

No. You apply your Con bonus, whatever that may be at the time to all your hit dice. All the line "To calculate total hit points, apply Constitution modifiers according to the score the lycanthrope has in each form," means is that a 10 HD werewolf with Con 16 in human form and Con 20 in wolf form has +30 bonus hit points in human form and +50 bonus hit points in wolf form. At any given time you only apply one Con modifier.

The stat-bonus for a were-bear is pure twinky goodness as well... (Str +16, Dex +2, Con +8???)

Remember that those modifiers are bought with six otherwise crappy animal hit dice.

[henebry]

No. You apply your Con bonus, whatever that may be at the time to all your hit dice. All the line "To calculate total hit points, apply Constitution modifiers according to the score the lycanthrope has in each form," means is that a 10 HD werewolf with Con 16 in human form and Con 20 in wolf form has +30 bonus hit points in human form and +50 bonus hit points in wolf form. At any given time you only apply one Con modifier.

That would make sense to me also, Shhalahr Windrider, and it would match the way other transformations work in D&D: as your form changes, your Con changes, and your HP rise and fall. But for some reason it's not how they calculate Lycanthrope hit points. Go look at the stat boxes for the werewolf or werebear on the d20srd:

Werebear, Human Form, Hit Dice: 1d8+1 plus 6d8+30 (62 hp)
Werebear, Bear Form, Hit Dice:1d8+1 plus 6d8+30 (62 hp)
Werebear, Hybrid Form, Hit Dice: 1d8+1 plus 6d8+30 (62 hp)

[Jasdoif]

That would make sense to me also, Shhalahr Windrider, and it would match the way other transformations work in D&D: as your form changes, your Con changes, and your HP rise and fall. But for some reason it's not how they calculate Lycanthrope hit points. Go look at the stat boxes for the werewolf or werebear on the d20srd:

I've noticed this before. It's kind of interesting, in that the default for Alternate Form says doesn't change your hit points even if your Con changes; whereas Lycanthrope explicitly overrides this, stating you determine total hit points based on the Con score of your current form.

Regardless, in the case of conflict, text trumps (example monster block) table.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

That would make sense to me also, Shhalahr Windrider, and it would match the way other transformations work in D&D: as your form changes, your Con changes, and your HP rise and fall. But for some reason it's not how they calculate Lycanthrope hit points. Go look at the stat boxes for the werewolf or werebear on the d20srd:

Well, crap.

Guess I've been to busy applying templates to my own characters to examine the sample stats.

I've noticed this before. It's kind of interesting, in that the default for Alternate Form says doesn't change your hit points even if your Con changes; whereas Lycanthrope explicitly overrides this, stating you determine total hit points based on the Con score of your current form.

But there's no contradiction. In this method, your hp will stay the same regardless of what form you have. Your different Con scores merge in a way that is the same for both forms. It's a function of how the Animal HD are applied and has nothing to do with Alternate Form.

I imagine they came up with such a strange system so the animal form's toughness would apply to a certain extent despite the restrictions of the Alternate Form ability.

[Jasdoif]

But there's no contradiction.

I'm not saying there is a contradiction. I just find it interesting; makes me wonder if they put in the "calculate HP based on Con in the present form" after they wrote up the example stat blocks, and never bothered/remembered to update the stat blocks to reflect the change.