help needed - what to do with floppy rogue

[Alveanerle]

Greetings,

I am seeking some advice that can be given to a rogue in our party.
Halfling rogue 2, ready for advancement to level 3.
Not-that-great stats (something along Str 10, Dex 17, Con 9, Wis 8, Int 8, Cha 9 - quite an unlucky rolling streak, and we do use "roll 4d6 for each stat, drop lowest dice, for one stat reroll one dice, then swap places of any two stats" rolling method).
Luck of Heroes taken on 1st level.
All "complete" books allowed, as well as Dungeonscape and Faerun ones (FRCS, PGtF, MoF).
The halfling uses his masterwork small wicked barbed dagger for melee (1d3, +sneak attack damage on confirmed critical hits, double enchant costs), and a light crossbow with small bayonette attached.

I thought of two sensible further ways of progress:
- taking Rogue level, with Dungeonscape Precise Strike variant in place of trap_sense+1, and topping it with Weapon Finesse or Tactile Trapsmith. Then continuing with Rogue until lvl 5, and taking Scout + Daring Outlaw at 6th.
- taking Scout right away, complete with Daring Outlaw feat bundled in the package, followed by Rogue4 (Dungeonscape Precise Strike variant) and then Scout all the way down the road.

What's your opinion on these ways of progress? Do you have some better/more interesting ideas?

[Spiryt]

Pure mehanically i will advise to take bow instead crossbow (or sling/ something thrown, + 1 to hit).
I know that crossbow is very rogue weapon, but unfortunately is crappy in D&D

Also i though that Daring Outlaw is for Swashbuckler/Rogue ?

[Alveanerle]

I might have the feat name wrong, no book at hand atm, but i am pretty positive there is a scout/rogue feat in CAdv.

Also, with lack of Str bonus, i do not see why sling would be any better than light crossbow. Both require move action to reload, and crossbow damage seems higher.

[Telonius]

Ugh. Normally I'd suggest one level of Wizard and Rogue for the rest, but those stats are pretty dire. No spellcasting for you! So instead, I'd suggest a level in Ranger, and Rogue for the rest of the way. It'll help your saves, give you proficiency with all martial weapons, and give you a favored enemy to stack on top of your Sneak Attack. Rogue is one class that's worth it to stick with for 19 levels.

I'd strongly urge you away from the melee attacks. Rogues tend to die when that happens. Instead, go for archery feats, your high Dex will serve you better there. Get yourself a decent bow with your Ranger proficiencies, and an item of Blinking so you can strike as invisible. Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot. See if you can get your DM to allow a Rapid Shot feat tree like the TWF feat tree. (Remember, Manyshot only lets you do precision damage from one arrow). Weapon Finesse is advisable as well.

[Alveanerle]

Of course, had the name and source wrong

Anyway, here it is:

Courtesy of realmshelps.dandello.net
Swift Ambusher
Type: General
Source: Complete Scoundrel

You combine your scout training with the stealth of a rogue to open up new methods of ambushing enemies.

Prerequisite: Skirmish +1d6/+1 AC, sneak attack +1d6.
Benefit: Your rogue and scout levels stack for the purpose of determining the extra damage and bonus to Armor Class granted when skirmishing. For example, a 4th-level scout/7th-level rogue would deal an extra 3d6 points of damage and gain a +3 competence bonus to AC when skirmishing, as if she were an 11th-level scout.
In addition, you can qualify for ambush feats as if your sneak attack bonus damage were the sum of your skirmish damage and sneak attack bonus damage. You cannot sacrifice skirmish extra damage to use those feats, however.
Special: A scout can select Swift Ambusher as one of her scout bonus feats.

Oh, so it seems that with this feat it's only sensible to dip 1 level in scout and then go all the way up as a rogue.

By the way, if a given hit fulfills requirements for both sneak attack and skirmish damage, these both damage sources add up, right?

[Truwar]

Weapon Finesse; with an int of 8 you are great skill-meister and with a str of 10 you are going to need to get sneak attacks as often as possible. The rules out bows, unless you REALLY want to only do 1d4 damage after the occasional surprise round. Melee combat will allow you to flank much more often, thus allowing you to use your large sneak attack bonus to make up for your lack of str bonus to damage.

I would also suggest picking up two-weapon fighting as well, the more sneak attacks the better. Taking a level of fighter at lv3 would give you 2 feats (weapon finesse and twf) as well as giving you a little boost to hit points.

[Telonius]

Hold on a sec ... adding all of your stat modifiers gives you a net -1. Doesn't that automatically qualify for a reroll? I know there are guidelines for that in the DMG. Not OGL though since it has to do with character generation. See if you can get your DM to check that section, you may be allowed a reroll.

[Alveanerle]

Get yourself a decent bow with your Ranger proficiencies, and an item of Blinking so you can strike as invisible.

How does this tactic work? 50% of attacks are treated as from invisible? Or all are treated as invisible and there's a 50% miss chance for each attack?

Also, why dip ranger rather than scout? I thought scout would rock for the stackage of skirmish damage with sneak attack damage?

On the other hand, might dip ranger and go all way scout up, employing the Swift Hunter feat, and enjoying skirmish damage versus normaly immune creatures!

[Alveanerle]

Hold on a sec ... adding all of your stat modifiers gives you a net -1. Doesn't that automatically qualify for a reroll? I know there are guidelines for that in the DMG. Not OGL though since it has to do with character generation. See if you can get your DM to check that section, you may be allowed a reroll.

The player said he's ok with his stats (it's not mine char, i just feel obliged to give him some sound advice).

[Telonius]

It works just like the Blink spell. All attacks you make in that round are treated as though you were attacking while invisible. This means your target is denied his dexterity bonus to AC. For a Rogue, this means that Sneak Attack applies during the whole duration of the spell effect. 50% of all attacks against you fail (unless the attacker can see invisible, etc), while only 20% of your own attacks on others fail. On all of the blows that do hit, you do sneak attack damage.

With a Scout, Skirmish damage only applies if you move first, so you never get off a full attack while doing it. You can never add your extra dice more than once a round. (That's why the Blinking tactic is better for primarily Rogue characters). For both Scouts and Rogues, your damage output comes from extra dice; so an increased chance of doing rolling extra dice more often per round is preferable.

I'm not certain whether or not Sneak Attack and skirmish stack for damage. I don't have the book in front of me, and I can't remember for certain if Skirmish officially counts as precision damage or not. If it is, I'd rule that they don't stack, since the extra damage comes from the same source. If they stack - then yes, one level of Scout and Rogue for the rest. The Ambusher feat becomes less helpful the more Scout levels you have.

[JackMage666]

I would beg for a re-roll, if I was him, considering he's negative to everything but Str and Dex, and positive only to Dex. He hurts, alot, just from that. Also, it's hard to be a skill monkey if you have negative intelligence, even with 8+int per level. Let's face it, he hurts.

[Spiryt]

I would beg for a re-roll, if I was him, considering he's negative to everything but Str and Dex, and positive only to Dex.

Why beg, he quite literally shouldn't keep that rolls.

[Alveanerle]

I would beg for a re-roll, if I was him, considering he's negative to everything but Str and Dex, and positive only to Dex. He hurts, alot, just from that. Also, it's hard to be a skill monkey if you have negative intelligence, even with 8+int per level. Let's face it, he hurts.

My personal guess it's more like a mischievous "ok, so on paper i am half as powerful as the weakest character around the table, let's see if i can shine anyway and put others to shame" fun-attitude.

Also, i am quoting those stats from memory. He might have a point more in Cha or Con (i am fairly positive of 0 Str modifier and -1 Wis/Int ones).

[Telonius]

Yeah, if anything he should have put the 12 in INT and just had to live with an 8 or 9 in STR. Low strength doesn't matter as much to a Rogue, unless Ray of Enfeeblement is involved.

[Alveanerle]

Yeah, if anything he should have put the 12 in INT and just had to live with an 8 or 9 in STR. Low strength doesn't matter as much to a Rogue, unless Ray of Enfeeblement is involved.

Roll were not "put" into stats. It was "roll 4d6 for each stat. Do you want to reroll one dice in one stat roll? Toss lowest dice of each stat out. Now you can swap any 2". His rolls were just poor like that, and he rerolled "1" for "1".

[Rock Roller]

Greetings,

I am seeking some advice that can be given to a rogue in our party.
Halfling rogue 2, ready for advancement to level 3.
Not-that-great stats (something along Str 10, Dex 17, Con 9, Wis 8, Int 8, Cha 9 - quite an unlucky rolling streak, and we do use "roll 4d6 for each stat, drop lowest dice, for one stat reroll one dice, then swap places of any two stats" rolling method).

Even if you misquoted the stats, and you did have no bonus in charisma rather than a penalty, you still don't have to keep those rolls, according to the DMG.

In my group, no one would have cared if you'd scrapped that and gone with making a new character, but you might have wanted the challenge of playing a mostly average peasant, and there's nothing wrong with that. I'd rather play an 18, 18, 3, 5, 6, 7 than a 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 14. You may be different.

All that being said, I'd say stick with rogue all the way. Keep your tumble skill maxed, weapon finesse, dodge, mobility. Maybe that a level or so of Scout and look desperately for Boots of Striding and Springing, potions of expeditious retreat, and other things to help with the speed, because you have to stay out of combat.

[Alveanerle]

As i mentioned:
- it is not my char, i am just trying to find some working solution to a friend who insists on playing it
- yes i am aware this is far from a solid and sound character
- i am recalling stats from memory, the total sum might be 0 instead of -1 (i dont recall Cha nor Con values exactly, one of them might be at 10. Rest of stats is like i posted)
- the question is this - assuming such character is played, what would be some reasonable ways of squeezing the most out of it? Both short term and medium term (in long term, DM might provide for story-related way of heavy character reconstruction, including stat reroll).

[PlatinumJester]

Ok, retire this character your playing now because he/shes crap. Then create another halfing rogue with the same skill points, weapons etc but a different name. That way you get to re - roll the d6 again.

[Shinkoro]

I'd go Swordsage at level 3 and pick up Shadowblade as my feat and use a short sword. This will net your dex to damage as long as your in a Shadow stance. Take 3 levels of Swordsage to get the Assassin's Stance. This will net you a extra 2d6 to sneak attacks and you can grab 8 manuevers ,one other stance, +1 to initiative and free short sword focus for 3 levels of Swordsage. 3 Levels of Swordsage will do alot for a rogue build.

My suggestions. All this is in the Tome of Battle by the way. I would pick up weapon finess when possible too. Also, a 2 level dip in fighter can net you two weapon fighting and improved two weapon fighting early in your career. More attacks = more sneaks = more death. After that I would go back to rogue for more sneak damage/ skills. Ending in Swordsage 3/ Fighter 2/ Rogue 15.

[henebry]

With those stats? Two words: Point-Buy.

Seriously, I don't know why anyone rolls stats. It leaves some lucky characters with permanent advantages over the average ones. And unlucky characters dependent on the mercy of the DM to allow them to re-roll or do a point-buy. Just have everyone do point-buy in the first place.

[Spiryt]

Point buy is boring. Making character from rolled stats makes more interesting characters. When somebody in my gaming group have overall bonus worst than + 5 he makes reroll (dont remember what were official rules but +5 is optimal IMO) and its works OK.

[Alveanerle]

Thank you all for your opinions. Will definitely have to check the ToB, whenever i lay my hands on it.