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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Lil bit o' love for the SHIELDS

    Edit:
    New to Thread? Check second post. Erk did a better job than I did.
    Okay, easy to face it, shield use is severely underpowered in D&D, compared to other options (especially power attack with 2h weapon). So, how about this as a base ability (no feat required, just shield proficiency) with the shield...

    Intercept
    As a free action, once per round, a character with a shield can attempt to block an attack. After an attack has been rolled as a non-critical hit against the blocking character but before damage is rolled, the blocking character makes a touch attack against the enemy weapon. Success indicates that the damage is applied to the shield instead, filtered properly through the damage reduction of the shield's material. The character loses the armor benefits of the shield until the character's next turn (assuming the shield was not destroyed by the impact).
    Last edited by Talanic; 2007-05-14 at 12:54 AM.
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    Default Re: Lil bit o' love for the SHIELDS

    Weak though. It is a bit of an iffy matter to hit at all, you lose the benefit of your shield afterwards (doesn't say whether you succeed or fail) and you could lose the shield altogether.

    With some derivative feats to reduce those penalties it gets better. Here is my take (I have been looking for shield feats for my homebrew campaign too :)

    Intercept [General]
    You can use your shield to entirely absorb attacks against you.
    Benefit: Once per round you can interpose your shield between yourself and an attack against yourself or anything within the area threatened by your shield. Roll 1d20, adding any attack bonuses you have to your shield, and adding double the Shield AC as well. If this is greater than the attack roll against you, you have successfully intercepted the attack. Your shield takes damage from the attack, and may be destroyed, and you lose your shield bonus to AC until your next turn. Subtract your shield's armour check penalty from attempts to protect anything not occupying the same space as you; such attempts provoke attacks of opportunity from anything threatening your space (not the protected target's space).

    Intercepted Critical hits inflict critical damage to your shield. If your shield absorbs enough damage to shatter it entirely, 1/2 of any leftover damage is carried through to you.

    Interceptions may be used against any spell with you as the target (including touch spells). In these cases, the caster may add his spell DC to the opposed attack roll (only for the purposes of determining if the intercept was successful); spells which do not normally require an attack roll, such as magic missile, still need one for the purposes of determining the interception; these spells get an extra +4 to their attack roll. If the spell has any option to inflict damage, that damage is inflicted on your shield. Any other effects are nullified (special effect spells which only inflict damage on a successful save use that damage). Spells with a particular effect against nonliving matter, such as disintegrate, use that effect on your shield (assuming your shield isn't alive).

    Improved Intercept [General]
    You're more skilled at using your shield to protect yourself, able to do so at far less risk to your person.
    Prerequisites: Intercept
    Benefit: You do not lose your shield bonus to AC after an intercept attempt. Additionally, you gain a +4 on all Intercept attempts. Intercepting to protect something nearby no longer provokes an attack of opportunity.

    Deflecting Block [General]
    Not only does your shield intercept damage against you, but it is nearly undamaged by such attempts.
    Prerequisites: Improved Intercept, Improved Shield Bash
    Benefit: Add your Base Attack Bonus to your shield's hardness rating when you make an Interception.

    Skilled Interceptor
    Every level of Skilled Interceptor improves your ability to intercept enemy attacks.
    Prerequisites: Deflecting Block
    Benefit: You gain +4 to intercept checks, and your shield's hardness rating increases by 2 when Intercepting. If you have Reverberating Block, the DC of saves against your reverberating block increases by 2. If you have Shattering Block, your shield gains a +2 on its sunder check when performing a shattering block.
    Special: This feat may be taken multiple times. Its effects stack.

    Reverberating Block
    You can lash back hard, twisting your shield against a melee attack with your shield. Your opponent's weapon flies aside, putting him off-balance.
    Prerequisites: Improved Intercept, Improved Disarm
    Benefit: After you successfully make an Intercept against the attack, your opponent must make a Reflex or Balance save (opponent chooses which save to make; DC equal to his own attack roll against you) or be flatfooted until his next turn. If he fails his save by more than 10, your opponent is also Disarmed. Your shield takes normal damage from the enemy's attack, as with any Interception. Opponents with Improved Uncanny Dodge are immune to being rendered flatfooted by this technique, but can still be disarmed.

    Shattering Block [General]
    You can meet an attack with your shield with full force of your own.
    Prerequisites: Improved Intercept, Improved Sunder
    Benefit: When you use your shield to intercept an attack, you can make a simultaneous Sunder attempt with your shield against the opponent's weapon. If your shield is destroyed during a Shattering Block attempt, the carryover damage to you is full, not halved.

    Hasty Defender [General]
    Prerequisites: Intercept, Base Attack Bonus 6+
    Benefit: You can intercept attacks with your shield a number of times equal to your number of iterative attacks per round. Each iterative intercept check is lower than the last, exactly as with iterative attacks. For example, a Fighter with Base Attack Bonus 12 could make one Intercept attempt at full bonus, another at 5 less than his normal intercept check, and a final at 10 less than his normal check.

    Defensive Flanking
    Benefit: Add a +2 flanking bonus to your Intercept checks for every ally within your shield's threatened space. The total bonus cannot exceed your Base Attack Bonus.

    Spell Interception
    You have worked out ways to use your shield to not just block spells, but interrupt spells used against it.
    Prerequisites: Intercept, Arcane Intuition
    Benefit: When you successfully intercept a spell, that spell is completely nullified and does not damage your shield. You gain a +4 to attempts to intercept spells.
    Last edited by Erk; 2007-05-14 at 09:35 PM.
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    Default Re: Lil bit o' love for the SHIELDS

    Nice idea, Talanic i also think that shield need its own ability.
    And nice feats Erk though i think that some of them are waste of feats ( but after all fighter can afford them).

    Improved intercept + hard shield could be nice alternative.
    But take 10 on shield intercept attempts is rather strange and is not helping so much. IN my opinion + 4 to opposed check ( just as improved trip or sunder) would be better.
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    Default Re: Lil bit o' love for the SHIELDS

    Good point Spiryt. Maybe I'll merge Defensive Lunge into Improved Intercept as well as adding a +4 and taking out the Take 10, since the utility of defensive lunge is going to be more limited.

    The only two I think are wastes of feats (for a fighter wanting to do Sword and Board) are Defensive Flanking and Shattering Block (and Defensive Lunge if you aren't planning on protecting your allies). Defensive Flanking is mostly a "realism" thing rather than a powerful feat: having shield buddies makes a real shield more effective. I'm not all that sure about Shattering Block but I think the rest are fairly handy myself. Depends a bit on the campaign world I guess. In most of my campaigns Fighters get a bonus feat every level, and are needing the options if they want to focus on a particular style.
    Last edited by Erk; 2007-05-13 at 05:09 AM.
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    Default Re: Lil bit o' love for the SHIELDS

    There is feat in one of complete books, if I remember good, that allow you to add shield bonus to your touch AC. I think that it shouldn't be feat. It should be normal shield advantage.
    Avatar by Kwarkpudding
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    Default Re: Lil bit o' love for the SHIELDS

    I think it should be useable more than once per round - if you give up an attack to block. (But the first block is free)

    So a fighter 20 could block twice with BAB 20, once with 15, once with 10 and once with 5. Incidentally, this would make Two-Weapon fighting useful as a counter to this tactic.

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    Default Re: Lil bit o' love for the SHIELDS

    Quote Originally Posted by Arachnid View Post
    I think it should be useable more than once per round - if you give up an attack to block. (But the first block is free)

    So a fighter 20 could block twice with BAB 20, once with 15, once with 10 and once with 5. Incidentally, this would make Two-Weapon fighting useful as a counter to this tactic.
    Very good idea. Less damage, but can defend yourself very well. And TWF ( usually less dam. than THF) - less damage too but better to overcome the shield blocks.
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    Default Re: Lil bit o' love for the SHIELDS

    Yeah, but the blocks have to be used in order. No blocking with your worst attack and then hammering the enemy with the best one. Also it's less confusing for the DM.

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    Default Re: Lil bit o' love for the SHIELDS

    This general idea comes up every so often. Here is a link to the last Thread proposing a similar system, which itself links to previous incarnations: D20 Parry
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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Lil bit o' love for the SHIELDS

    Wow. Just woke up, and those are some sweet feats!

    I think that the base Intercept should be just a combat action, rather than a feat, working fine as written by Erk there. Feats then modify the action, as with Trip or Feint.
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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Lil bit o' love for the SHIELDS

    Another option rather than entirely modifying the core rules (though I have nothing against that) would be to give fighters, paladins, and any other classes you think need to know how to use a shield Intercept as a free feat at first level. The main difference is that it keeps the players aware of this new handy thing they can do, and limits it to combat-capable classes without forcing them to spend a feat slot on the basic power itself.
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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Lil bit o' love for the SHIELDS

    Well, the argument against that is that right now, it's not worth it to use a shield, period. If Intercept's a second feat rather than included with shield proficiency, then for non-combat classes it's two feats for an ability that starts quite weak, three or more before it actually starts to be something that you'd want to use in combat. I doubt it would be overpowering for Intercept to be included in shield proficiency, as anyone using a shield would want it, same as anyone using two handed weapons would want power attack.
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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Lil bit o' love for the SHIELDS

    Modifications suggested by a friend:
    -Intercept only provokes an attack of opportunity if you intercept someone outside of your space. Improved intercept does not increase the range of your intercept radius.
    -Maybe add a feat that doubles intercept radius when used to protect something outside your space, removes attack of opportunity when you do it, and gives you a bonus
    -Specify that the shield has to be wielded (no use of this with a floating shield and a 2handed weapon) and you can't be wielding anything in the shield hand (no use of this with two-weapon fighting and bucklers: it is strictly sword-and-shield)
    -Deflecting Blow increases shield hardness, doesn't add DR. Don't really know what I was thinking anyway.
    -maybe add a feat with Shield Ward as a prereq or whatever that "add shield AC to touch attacks" feat is that lets you Intercept spells against you? Not sure how that would work yet. Perhaps on any spell with you as the target you can replace a saving throw with an Intercept check, and if that intercept check succeeds the spell does nothing?

    I don't think it's overpowering to include it with shield proficiency either, it's just not something I will do for my games. I guess it depends on if you see this as a basic thing to be able to do with shields, or a combat skill for fighters.
    Last edited by Erk; 2007-05-13 at 08:32 PM.
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    Default Re: Lil bit o' love for the SHIELDS

    I would extend the benefits of Intercept to projectile-based and ray-based spells just straight up, since it works off of the same principles. Have it oppose the sum of the opponent's spell's level, their caster level, and their relevant caster attribute to simulate spell 'speed', which indicates how difficult the spell would be to block. Then, if you fail to Intercept, you must save vs. the spell, since it has arrived on target.
    Last edited by Maldraugedhen; 2007-05-13 at 08:51 PM.
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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Lil bit o' love for the SHIELDS

    I'm all for it allowing intercept to block spells from the start but why the complicated check calculation? Spell DC's already take into account all those things. Maybe just allow the caster to add his spell DC mods (IE. his spell DC -10) to his touch/ranged touch attack roll, once the intercept has been declared? Then having other bonuses to spell DC will help against interception. Also, do damage spells affect the shield, and does it get to save if so? I personally say that the shield just disperses the spell effect, to avoid complication (making the shield save, deciding what spells affect it, etc).
    Last edited by Erk; 2007-05-13 at 09:33 PM.
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    Default Re: Lil bit o' love for the SHIELDS

    Fun idea for more offensive use.

    Reverberating Block
    You can lash back hard, twisting your shield against a melee attack with your shield. Your opponent's weapon flies aside, putting him off-balance.
    Prerequisites: Improved Intercept, Improved Disarm
    Benefit: After you successfully make an Intercept against the attack, your opponent must make a Reflex save or be flatfooted until his next turn. If he fails his save by more than 10, your opponent is also Disarmed. Your shield takes normal damage from the enemy's attack, as with any Interception (Deflecting Block bonuses are not applied).

    Opponents with Uncanny Dodge are immune to being rendered flatfooted by this technique, but can still be disarmed.



    Edit: Okie, added that and some of my own take on spell interception. Cleaned up, simplified, or made more logical some of the existing feats as well.
    Last edited by Erk; 2007-05-14 at 12:31 AM.
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    Default Re: Lil bit o' love for the SHIELDS

    I like the ideas, but I must say, I'm really looking for more offensive shield loving... Still by preventing opponents attacks, you give yourself more attacks than they get, which is kind of offensive in a round about kind of way.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Lil bit o' love for the SHIELDS

    Also, you can learn to make them flatfooted, disarm them, or sunder their weapon. Not all offense needs to be against the opponent directly.
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    Default Re: Lil bit o' love for the SHIELDS

    I missed that part about disarming and making flat-footed, not bad.

    Though I think it should still apply against uncanny dodge, and am not really a fan of the disarming so much.

    What's the reflex DC?

    Also, I'm a bit skeptical about shields actually breaking weapons.

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    Default Re: Lil bit o' love for the SHIELDS

    Why? In real life weapons broke/break all the time in melee combat. Hitting a hard object with your sword should be bad for it. Having that hard metal object in the hands of someone who knows where a sword's weak points lie should be really bad for it.

    Admittedly, Sunder is not something PC's usually want to do, but I wanted to present the option.

    As for the disarm, yeah, I am not sold on it either but I had the idea so I wrote it in for consideration. Reflex DC is currently equal to the Intercept check, which is:
    1d20+attack bonus+shield AC+4 from Improved Interception
    that comes to, for a 10th level fighter using a large shield, something like 1d20+20, for an average of around 30. Reflex save DC 30 at tenth level seems a bit high. Or maybe the reflex save DC should just be something other than the Intercept attempt. Hmm.

    Which is cooler, I wonder: flatfooting or disarming. Reverberating block could let you make a disarm attempt just as Shattering block lets you make a sunder attempt. Or maybe it only lets you do a disarm attempt after they fail their reflex save miserably, but that becomes a lot of die rolling.
    Last edited by Erk; 2007-05-14 at 01:11 AM.
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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Lil bit o' love for the SHIELDS

    Not that unlikely, IMO. You're hitting something built to take hits, and if your opponent is good enough at hitting back at the same time...well, the shield's built to take hits, but your sword isn't.

    Add in an adamantine shield (which gets a LOT better than it would be without Intercept factored in) and your odds of breaking your enemy's weapon gets better and better. A heavy shield (medium sized) without weapon enchantments deals only 1d4 + str bashing. A +1 greatsword has 12 points of hardness and 20 hit points. You're not going to break your enemy's weapon with just one Intercept, and, in fact, may not even deal any damage at all on a successful sunder (that's why you invest in an Adamantine shield, to bypass hardness of less than 20).

    SRD link on sunder: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/exploratio...ssAndHitPoints
    Make sure to note that each + on a weapon, piece of armor, or shield gives it +2 hardness and +10 hit points.
    Last edited by Talanic; 2007-05-14 at 01:09 AM.
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    Default Re: Lil bit o' love for the SHIELDS

    Actually despite popular believe, unless a weapon was already in REALLY poor condition (not too rare actually) or a hafted weapon, weapons rarely if ever broke in combat. At least swords anyway. Such was tested rather thoroughly in myth busters actually. People do not have the strength/speed to actually cleave another's sword in half, even an expert swordsman. Rapiers could be snapped however, they really are flimsy weapons.

    Unless being cleaved by a giant or something, a sword in good condition should never really be sunderable... Same with any weapon that's primarily made of steal... Though that really has nothing to do with different weapons, and is more a complaint with sundering in general...

    So as sundering is already unrealistic (except it IS fantasy and I guess such is common in fantasy) I guess it's fine.

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    Default Re: Lil bit o' love for the SHIELDS

    OK, changed Reverberating Block. DC is now equal to the enemy's attack roll, not yours. Makes sense since I think you are using their own attack against them; also it means they have to be either really clumsy or really unlucky to get disarmed. Also, it could be a balance check rather than a reflex save....

    The Uncanny Dodge protection is because I really can't see someone who can remain on their toes at all times getting so easily thrown off balance. It could be upped to Improved Uncanny Dodge though, or removed altogether.

    Regarding sundering: well first, we are dealing with a d&d world's rules for sundering. If their swords are too weak, that's their swords. Even in D&D though, hafted weapons still outnumber swords for the mostpart. At least the games I play. When I say "weapons broke all the time", I mean weapons, not just one class of them that may be pretty tough. But I don't claim to be an expert.
    Last edited by Erk; 2007-05-14 at 01:20 AM.
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    Default Re: Lil bit o' love for the SHIELDS

    Maybe make it a balance check, or reflex save, whichever is higher with a + 2 bonus for uncanny dodge and +4 bonus for improved uncanny dodge.

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    Default Re: Lil bit o' love for the SHIELDS

    And check the game mechanics behind Sunder, which I linked above. A successful Sunder hit does not even come close to breaking an average weapon in one hit unless you have an obscene load of strength, and/or an adamantine shield being used. If your strength is less than 40, you won't break a weapon in one hit with the shield, even ignoring hardness. And how many times will you actually manage to land a sunder attempt?
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    Default Re: Lil bit o' love for the SHIELDS

    well, if you have a magic adamantine shield with spikes and an enhancement bonus you have a good crack at sundering a mundane weapon... but then you should. Make me think, too, we should make some intercept-related magical effects for shields.

    I altered Reverberating Block further; check description. I don't think Uncanny Dodges should add a bonus to avoiding it, since that also lowers the chances of disarming such an opponent, which isn't what I'm looking for. They are no harder to disarm, but they don't lose their balance the same.
    Last edited by Erk; 2007-05-14 at 01:58 AM.
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    Default Re: Lil bit o' love for the SHIELDS

    Remember though that a lot of damage comes from surface area to speed strength ratio, it's why blades cut. Hitting a shield is no different than hitting a wall, and no matter how strong you or the wall is, chances are, you would wear yourself out long before you'd do any significant damage to your average sword.

    By the way, the surface area favors the sword for the same reason pick axes are used for mining.
    Last edited by Wolf_Boy; 2007-05-14 at 02:19 AM.

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    Default Re: Lil bit o' love for the SHIELDS

    Which, again, is still accounted for. Your shield is going to be taking more damage than the attacking weapon unless you have a very nice shield designed for the purpose, and they have a pretty poor weapon. But it does allow the GM to introduce a blackguard with a magic shield covered in hooks and ridges that glows with dark energy, a shield that chips and cracks the weapons that it smashes aside.

    Honestly: PC's don't sunder, because PC's want loot. The people who would use a sundering shield feat are going to be the bad guys, in which case there can be situations written in that explain their smashy shields. But in a more realistic campaign, perhaps it's not a good idea. Remember, we're currently talking about a game where you can triple your attacks by carrying a second sword and strapping a disk to your arm and calling it a "buckler".
    Last edited by Erk; 2007-05-14 at 02:20 AM.
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    Default Re: Lil bit o' love for the SHIELDS

    I see that the first idea has been abandoned in favour of opposed Attack Rolls. You need to make it clear as to when a Character can use his 'Intercept' [i.e. before Damage is rolled, but after an Attack si rolled?]. You also need to take into account whether this is going to be effective or not as is. The average score a Character is going to need to successfully block an incoming attack is always going to be high, as that hit had to overcome the Character's Armour Class in the first place. Chances are it's going to be 16+. Unless the Character is a lot more skilled than his opponent he is going to need the same sort of score.

    The analogue to this ability is the Mounted Combat Feat, which allows an Opposed mechanic to protect the Mount once per round, in addition to the normal benefits of the Feat.
    It is a joyful thing indeed to hold intimate converse with a man after one’s own heart, chatting without reserve about things of interest or the fleeting topics of the world; but such, alas, are few and far between.

    – Yoshida Kenko (1283-1350), Tsurezure-Gusa (1340)

  30. - Top - End - #30
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location

    Default Re: Lil bit o' love for the SHIELDS

    It always was opposed attack rolls. My original writeup said a touch attack; that changed to an opposed attack modified by attack bonus and shield AC.
    You may think of me as:
    Struggling amateur author #3284728

    Book one is on the Kindle now. It's a mix of hard science fiction and fantasy. How's that work? Surprisingly well.

    I share the ebook version of it freely. Link to download it is at the top of that page.

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