Ravenloft and Binders

[battlemindjase]

Hey everyone,

So I am going to be playing in a 3.5 Ravenloft game. I would like to play a Binder but my DM is advising against it because he says Ravenloft exists in another dimension and is cut off, even from the Void, so I wouldn't be able to bind any Vestiges while we are there. I have never played Ravenloft so I have no idea.

I know Ravenloft was published before Tome of Magic, so there really can't be a RAW ruling on Binders specifically. Anyone that has played it want to give their 2 cents? I would love to hear some other opinions

[ComaVision]

That's a poor excuse, unless he's banning all Divine casters as well.


That being said, if he doesn't want Binders then don't play a Binder.

[TheCrowing1432]

Theres no rules precedent for this, so its all up to the DM, and if he nixed it, then theres not much more to say.


If you want our opinions on it.

I think its dumb. I never like limiting my players options as a DM, especially with a ham fisted reason as "oh the plane you're on is cut off from (insert source of power)"

[battlemindjase]

He is not banning all divine casters. we have 2 clerics in the party

[EisenKreutzer]

Ask him why the clerics can remain in contact with their gods.

If it's a bull**** answer, he just doesn't want you to play a Binder.

[TheCrowing1432]

He is not banning all divine casters. we have 2 clerics in the party

Of course you do.


Sounds like your DM pulled out an arbitrary reason to ban binders. I mean if Ravenloft is cut off from The Void, why isnt it cut off from whatever plane the Gods reside in?

[Chronos]

I disagree with the DM's ruling. Vestiges don't come from a place called "The Void", wherever that is. They come from nowhere. There is no place where they exist. Any place that exists is equally different from "nowhere", so binders should be just as valid in Ravenloft as anywhere else. If anything, they'd be more likely to work than divine casters, who draw power from entities that actually do exist and have a location.

Plus, of course, binders are great for adding a creepy vibe to a game, which should be perfect for Ravenloft.

That said, however, he's the DM, and so unless you want to leave the game, he has final say.

[MrKeserian]

Hey all, I'm another player in the same game. I'm one of the two clerics, Clr5, Ordained Champion 5, Runecaster 10. Anyways, what the GM said is that Divine Casters don't get their power from where they think they do while in Ravenloft, hence why divine magic works weirdly. Honnestly, I'm agreeing with the suggestion that the GM doesn't like Binders, although I'm not sure why. Binder is flexible, but not nearly as powerful as the two clerics, warlock, or the other classes we have.

[WhamBamSam]

Yeah, your DM is full of crap and just looking for an excuse to ban Binders. If I had to guess, I'd say he's looking to make ability damage/drain stick more and sees Naberius as a potential thorn in his side.

I've actually been playing a Binder in a PBP Ravenloft game for a little over a year now. The character has been an absolute blast and fits into the setting really well.

[MrSinister]

There is so much potential for Binders in Ravenloft! When I ran a 3.5 RL game, I would have KILLED for a player to be a binder. The vestiges can be creations of the dark powers, or they can be the vestiges of all the summoned stuff that cannot return, or the ghosts of outsiders denied their place in the outer planes, or or or or ....

Now I want to go back in time and make a Half-Vistani Binder that uses an actual Tarrokka deck to manipulate the vestiges to his will by binding them in tarot cards.

[Nifft]

IMHO a Binder is very flavor-appropriate for Ravenloft, and Binders are generally much lower power than full spellcasters (which it seems are allowed in your game).

So yeah, it's probably just a DM who doesn't know much about the Binder.

If possible, introduce your DM to the class tier system.

Education is the best medicine.

[A Tad Insane]

Vestiges do not exist on any plane of existance. In fact they literally can't exist, which is why religious folk say they defy the natural order, because they do. This, along with being awesome flavor in what is essential 'Dracula: the campaign setting', is why a binder in Greyhawk can bind a vestige originating from the forgotten realms.
If your dm has a problem with specific vestiges, he can simple say your binder doesn't know them. If he insists that vestiges can fake exist everywhere but Ravenloft , I call shenagins

[Psyren]

I suggest sweetening the pot for your GM - if he feels the class is too powerful (for whatever reason) or that the setting should mess around with pact connection in some way, proactively suggest ways to do that. I would go with something like "even if my character makes a Good Pact, any time I use a power that has a cooldown I run the risk of falling under that vestige's influence for the next minute or two." This can be fluffed as vestiges bound within Ravenloft experiencing unnatural potency or some sort of resonance with the plane.

Throwing in something like this should make running a Binder more fun for your GM and he'll be more likely to say yes.

[Taveena]

Maybe difficulty expelling vestiges would make sense? What with Ravenloft's rules for Summons.

[elonin]

Are binders summoners? I'm familiar with the class by name but ravenloft plays by some different rules as far as effects that summons can't leave and dimension side steps (dimension door and teleport) don't work.

[illyahr]

+1 to: just doesn't like Binders.

A block is placed between one place and another. Vestiges exist nowhere, so they can't be blocked. They might act differently while in Ravenloft, but they can't be stopped from entering.

[Red Fel]

Are binders summoners? I'm familiar with the class by name but ravenloft plays by some different rules as far as effects that summons can't leave and dimension side steps (dimension door and teleport) don't work.

Not exactly. Binders basically form pacts with beings that are not supposed to exist, entities that are everywhere and nowhere because the cosmos cannot quantify them. These entities aren't so much "summoned" as they are "influencing;" that is, they influence the Binder, who gains a fraction of their power.

But as others have said, if the DM is concocting bogus excuses to exclude Binders, he wants to exclude Binders. Challenging that is a losing fight.

[Coidzor]

Are binders summoners? I'm familiar with the class by name but ravenloft plays by some different rules as far as effects that summons can't leave and dimension side steps (dimension door and teleport) don't work.

If they bind the Zceryll(?) vestige from the web enhancement they're pretty great summoners what with being able to spam summons every 5 rounds for all kinds of utility.

And they're weird pseudonatural critter versions of the things they summon, too.

Which would just make summoning them in ravenloft even wiggier. Or the sort of thing that'd be labeled the last act of a desperate adventurer.

[ekarney]

Being cut off from whatever "the void" is should only affect a binder if he plans for floating through nothing for the rest of his life. So I'd advise explaining to your DM that you don't plan on floating through nothing for eternity and see if that helps.

In fact, it's actually optimal to be far away from any sort of void when playing a binder since it's implied you need a surface to draw on in order to bind vestiges.

That combined with the fact that if they're located anywhere a vestige stops being a vestige because they start existing. Since vestiges are either gods/demons who stopped existing due to being completely forgotten about or mortals who went places they never should have gone with entities they never should have met (Zceryll) and as such were totally erased from history, which means if they occupy any sort of physical, metaphysical or theoretic space they return to history, meaning they stop being vestiges.

Isn't there a Tippyverse theory going around that because of the powerful wizards erasing all these people from history Binders have incredible power because they have so many more vestiges?

[battlemindjase]

I worked out a compromise with the DM. I'd rather play the character with a few drawbacks while in Ravenloft than not play it at all. Binder is my favorite class in 3.5 and I'm going to play it, despite what he says. Also planning on abusing Use Magic Device just in case.

:D

[Chronos]

Cool, compromise is good. What did you agree on?

[Coidzor]

Cool, compromise is good. What did you agree on?

Indeed, I'm curious to know what drawbacks he thought were necessary.

[Venger]

Hey everyone,

So I am going to be playing in a 3.5 Ravenloft game. I would like to play a Binder but my DM is advising against it because he says Ravenloft exists in another dimension and is cut off, even from the Void, so I wouldn't be able to bind any Vestiges while we are there. I have never played Ravenloft so I have no idea.

I know Ravenloft was published before Tome of Magic, so there really can't be a RAW ruling on Binders specifically. Anyone that has played it want to give their 2 cents? I would love to hear some other opinions

as the thread's said so far, this is complete nonsense.

binders are t3 at best. as has been mentioned, link your dm to the tier list and the binder handbook.

when the topic is "my dm won't allow (subsystem)" and it's not tob, the issue isn't always that the gm has an irrational dislike of it, it's more likely that he's just too lazy to bother learning the rules.

if you show him what binder does, he'll have no valid reason to ban it. if he persists... that's already a red flag.

you have two clerics who are not nerfed at all because of course you do. I bet he thinks all clerics do is heal, and they're certainly not the most powerful class in the game.

your dm probably thinks that the later in the run a subsystem is because power creep. this is erroneous.

Yeah, your DM is full of crap and just looking for an excuse to ban Binders. If I had to guess, I'd say he's looking to make ability damage/drain stick more and sees Naberius as a potential thorn in his side.

I've actually been playing a Binder in a PBP Ravenloft game for a little over a year now. The character has been an absolute blast and fits into the setting really well.

I have been running this ravenloft game for a little over a year. WhamBamSam is right, binder is a great fit thematically and mechanically. you can deal adroitly with a lot of the undead monsters and find interesting ways of dealing with other problems in the module as well.

I worked out a compromise with the DM. I'd rather play the character with a few drawbacks while in Ravenloft than not play it at all. Binder is my favorite class in 3.5 and I'm going to play it, despite what he says. Also planning on abusing Use Magic Device just in case.

:D

cleric: you're fine. hell, let's have two clerics
binder: I need to nerf this class.

wow.

good luck and have fun in ravenloft.

[A Tad Insane]

Cool, compromise is good. What did you agree on?

I want to know, too

[atemu1234]

as the thread's said so far, this is complete nonsense.

binders are t3 at best. as has been mentioned, link your dm to the tier list and the binder handbook.

when the topic is "my dm won't allow (subsystem)" and it's not tob, the issue isn't always that the gm has an irrational dislike of it, it's more likely that he's just too lazy to bother learning the rules.

if you show him what binder does, he'll have no valid reason to ban it. if he persists... that's already a red flag.

you have two clerics who are not nerfed at all because of course you do. I bet he thinks all clerics do is heal, and they're certainly not the most powerful class in the game.

your dm probably thinks that the later in the run a subsystem is because power creep. this is erroneous.



I have been running this ravenloft game for a little over a year. WhamBamSam is right, binder is a great fit thematically and mechanically. you can deal adroitly with a lot of the undead monsters and find interesting ways of dealing with other problems in the module as well.


cleric: you're fine. hell, let's have two clerics
binder: I need to nerf this class.

wow.

good luck and have fun in ravenloft.

Actually, that's usually true with TOB as well. Humans are rarely truly irrational, just wrong.

Also, fun in Ravenloft. Heh.

Also, I'll bite- what drawbacks?

[Crake]

Humans are rarely truly irrational, just wrong.

I feel this quoteworthy, if I may?

[atemu1234]

I feel this quoteworthy, if I may?

Of course, my friend.

[Crake]

Of course, my friend.

Coolios, thanks

[Blackhawk748]

Binders are almost tailor made fluff wise for Ravenloft, so i dont see why your DM has an issue, unless he just doesnt get Binder Fluff.

Also i want to know what the compromise is too.

[Venger]

Actually, that's usually true with TOB as well. Humans are rarely truly irrational, just wrong.

Also, fun in Ravenloft. Heh.

Also, I'll bite- what drawbacks?

Well, yeah. I didn't mean that dms never ban tob because they're too lazy to read the book, as a subsystem of course that's true. I meant it's the only subsystem where people in threads will regularly reveal their dm won't allow it because "{Scrubbed} I hate anime." incarnum's fluff is also regarded as universally terrible, but it's almost never the primary reason a dm bans it.

I bet OP has to make some kind of caster level check or not bind his vestiges or something. "for balance."