the perfect spy??

[kemmotar]

So i'm thinking about making a spellcasting type spy character. mainly this will be a dopplegagner (see monster manual) with 32 ability points in FR. concerning classes i was thinking lvl3 wizard, lvl druid and then go into arcane hierophant(for one lvl) prestige class and chameleon. the class skils of the dopplegagner will allow me to take chameleon without needing to take rogue for skill prerequisites. the main attribute of this character will be his power to emulate anything. firstly the advantage of arcane hierophant will be that as a wizard i can wear armor as a druid with no arcane spell failure (btw arcane hierophant from races of the wild) plus an extra spellcasting class. then chameleon will take this and improve it since i can also get cleric spells. so although i will not have high level spells i will essentially have 3 spell lists to choose from. main attributes of this character will be assassination and getting in with disguise and bluff (change shape+disguise self+ 4 racial bonus for a grand +24 bonus to disguise and +4 racial in bluff will help alot!) i realize this character will not be very proficient in battle but he can get in and get out with the plans of the building, kill and impersonate a guard to let the others on his "shift", steal items, kill the BBEG when he's asleep (hehe) poison his cereal etc etc.one main question is whether assassin is in fact any good?i realise that death attack seems godlike but what it boild down is a save that most high level players would make. i mean regularly clerics, paladins, fighters and monks have amazing fortitude saves, many spellcaster (wizards-sorcerers-druids) have concentration to make up for lack of ac in hp and concentration (especially arcane spellcasters).
the extra reason for druid is who would expect the character wearing armor and fighting with a greatsword after casting a fireball wild shaping into a bear when everybody thinks he is cornered and flying away? so amazing running away capabilities. then you can also make up for low constitution score (i was thinking high int-wis-cha for skills mainly and lots of spells since i dont have high level ones) by changing into bear form.
so the question is:
a) is assassin a good class any way and should i consider it an a spy style character?
b) should i take just a few levels in arcane hierophant and maximize adaptability with chameleon ( with arcane focus you can get lots and lots of spells if you also have the spellcasting class already...and with double focus you can also go for cleric at the same time for literally endless spels!) or should i try the reverse?just get one level in chameleon ( or two for the bonus feat ) and then focus on arcane hierophant or some other class entirely?
c) concerning feats i was thinking sudden still, sudden silent, sudden maximize, sudden empower, natural spell and sure handed (complete scounderl for the skill tricks tp reestablish a disguise or bluff [damned natural failures :P]) that way i maximize the damage on the one hit that matters cause lets face it, he wont do much damage otherwise. any other suggestions?

concerning what books i can use, anything goes as long as its official. keep in mind the setting is FR so no eberron stuff.hehe
any suggestions on other classes or prestiges that might be helpful? i was also thinking about master of masks prestige (complete scoundrel) but in this build it would force me to take a rogue level for the perform skill and then only one level in it would be useful for the gladiator mask (profficiency with all exotic weapon!woot) and maybe one with sneak attack i dont remember if there is one though.
any thoughts?

[Tellah]

Beguiler is the ultimate spy. That whole Wizard/Druid/Chameleon thing is needlessly complicated and not particularly useful--having a lot of options is useless if they aren't all really, really good options.

[Ninja Chocobo]

Beguiler is the ultimate spy. That whole Wizard/Druid/Chameleon thing is needlessly complicated and not particularly useful--having a lot of options is useless if they aren't all really, really good options.

I say also look into Spymaster (CAdv). That way if you do get caught, you don't. George McGee from two towns over does.

[the_tick_rules]

yeah spymaster is a great spy, cause well that's what the class is lol.

[Person_Man]

I second strait Beguiler. A great spy needs access to Invisibility, various Mind Effecting spells/effects (Detect Thoughts, Charm Person, etc), Move Silently, and social Skills. A Beguiler has all that and more.

Also, I find that the Hide Skill is detrimental to the flow of my games. Bob the Sneaky decides to go off on his own to scout/spy/whatever, and the game is essentially hijacked by Bob while he takes half an hour to gather every last piece of information he can on whatever, trick the enemies into revealing their plans, etc. Meanwhile, everyone else is just sitting there, waiting for a chance to get involved.

But if the party has access to Invisibility Sphere and Silence, everyone can come along for the fun, and then the Skill Monkey can get up close by himself (since Silence tips off your enemies when you move too close to them) to Listen in on their plans or whatnot, with the other players on hand just in case.

[kpenguin]

yeah spymaster is a great spy, cause well that's what the class is lol.

agreed. A spymaster allows you, for instance, to be immune to divinations, which is very useful.

Also, skills to max out:

Disguise
Hide
Move Silently
Bluff
Diplomacy
Sleight of Hand
Sense Motive
Knowledge (Local)

[Tellah]

But if the party has access to Invisibility Sphere and Silence, everyone can come along for the fun, and then the Skill Monkey can get up close by himself (since Silence tips off your enemies when you move too close to them) to Listen in on their plans or whatnot, with the other players on hand just in case.

Addendum: Beguilers who play to their strengths make the campaign run very, very differently. Invisibility Sphere + Silence is such a clearly effective combination that the party will be using it as their primary method of getting through dungeons and other site-based adventures. Personally, I really like the feel that lends to the game--the party is a sneaky strike team, rather than a fearsome bulldozer leveling the dungeon, running loudly from room to room to preserve their precious buffs.

[Person_Man]

Addendum: Beguilers who play to their strengths make the campaign run very, very differently. Invisibility Sphere + Silence is such a clearly effective combination that the party will be using it as their primary method of getting through dungeons and other site-based adventures. Personally, I really like the feel that lends to the game--the party is a sneaky strike team, rather than a fearsome bulldozer leveling the dungeon, running loudly from room to room to preserve their precious buffs.

I completely agree. Also, I've found that any of the Telepathic Bond type spells also help.

Failing that, another useful habit of my gaming group is for everyone to invest in Sign Language as a language. (Heroes of Battle even has rules for it). It's insanely useful to be able to talk (or at least signal each other with basic Navy Seal like combat information) without tipping off enemies on the other side of doors or around the corner.

[kemmotar]

well for what u said about beguilers, the build i made has all that and more. for example if u need to spy in a temple and ur a beguiler then u wouldnt really pass...except with chameleon you can have cleric spells(albeit at low level) to pass off as a cleric and wear armor without losing your main spellcasting ability (ie arcane) besides if youre going for high spellcasting then just 1 level in chameleon is enough and max out arcane hierophant. that way you get spells in two schools,some very good abilities and you get to wear armor without losing your spells(arcane spell failure). beguiler can do that too but only with light armor. maybe beguiler + druid would be good. and concerning skills you get all the social ones as monster class skills from dopplegagner anyway...also with silence and invisibility you dont need hide and move silently and a high intelligence score can help. maybe beguiler can be substituted for wizard levels if you want spellcasting more focused in an area. in the end also beguiler spells are arcane spells and a spy needs more than these spells to get by if you ask me. the ability to respond to any kind of situation is the best i think for a spy. spymaster does not give you much of that. just a "profile" with bonuses to disguise and bluff (good but not enough) non detection etc which you can easily get from items and not much power in battle. whereas with this build you can get alot of power if you go for arcane hierophant. firstly you got alot of spells from both druid and wizard plus you've got an animal companion that doubles as you familiar for many many bonuses. so i dont think beguiler and spymaster are so good when you really think about it...

[Tellah]

well for what u said about beguilers, the build i made has all that and more. for example if u need to spy in a temple and ur a beguiler then u wouldnt really pass...except with chameleon you can have cleric spells(albeit at low level) to pass off as a cleric and wear armor without losing your main spellcasting ability (ie arcane) besides if youre going for high spellcasting then just 1 level in chameleon is enough and max out arcane hierophant. that way you get spells in two schools,some very good abilities and you get to wear armor without losing your spells(arcane spell failure). beguiler can do that too but only with light armor. maybe beguiler + druid would be good. and concerning skills you get all the social ones as monster class skills from dopplegagner anyway...also with silence and invisibility you dont need hide and move silently and a high intelligence score can help. maybe beguiler can be substituted for wizard levels if you want spellcasting more focused in an area. in the end also beguiler spells are arcane spells and a spy needs more than these spells to get by if you ask me. the ability to respond to any kind of situation is the best i think for a spy. spymaster does not give you much of that. just a "profile" with bonuses to disguise and bluff (good but not enough) non detection etc which you can easily get from items and not much power in battle. whereas with this build you can get alot of power if you go for arcane hierophant. firstly you got alot of spells from both druid and wizard plus you've got an animal companion that doubles as you familiar for many many bonuses. so i dont think beguiler and spymaster are so good when you really think about it...

I think you and I are operating under different assumptions of what a spy means. You seem to be looking for a generalist build, one capable of doing a number of different things. May I recommend the Factotum class from Dungeonscape? Personally, when I think of a spy, I don't think of someone who shapeshifts into a bear and casts barkskin on his animal companion--but to each his own.

The problem in general with mixing multiple spellcasting classes is that they can cast many lower-level spells, but lack higher-level spells. This means, for instance, that a Druid 6/Wizard 6 could cast his choice of a 3rd-level Druid spell or a 3rd-level Wizard spell, but a Wizard 12 would be casting a 6th-level spell. Since you can only cast one spell per round, who do you think will win that battle?

[the_tick_rules]

agreed. A spymaster allows you, for instance, to be immune to divinations, which is very useful.

Also, skills to max out:

Disguise
Hide
Move Silently
Bluff
Diplomacy
Sleight of Hand
Sense Motive
Knowledge (Local)

also at max level, any mental spells only reveal details about your cover identity.

[kemmotar]

true, but then again, if they dont know your name how can they scry you?if you just give a false name they cant scry you right?or is it just me?also when someone scryed you you get a will save plus you can get magic items to prevent scrying and/or improve your will saves plus high wisdom is needed for spies for sense motive as much as charisma and bluff is needed. high base will saves from wizard/druid/arcane hierophant + wis results in making it unlikely to flunk a will save. and the rest of the spymaster class is pretty much useless in that you can get all that easily through items or skills. plus the profile depends much or your roleplaying anyway. if you decide to do so you can set up a more plausible profile through roleplaying and +4 in disguise and bluff is nothing anyway...and that's all you get. and if u combine it with beguiler anyway you wont get any levels for spells. plus the profiles you take on are limited from what you can actually do, you dont get any actual bonuses in craft or spells whereas with chameleon who wouldnt believe ur a cleric if you have a holy symbol and cast cleric spells?
spymaster is impressive at first but in the end its just a gimp prestige imo

[Shoyliguad]

An awesome class you might want to try is mind spy which revolves around reading peoples minds and you can actually get monuses in combat from it. Also shadow dancer is awesome when you can get anywhere with a few shadow jumps.

[kemmotar]

so the sneaky invisible kind of spy?you listen to stuff without being seen/heard?and easy escape/access to anything you want with shadow jump...hmmm
mindspy?hmm...i've seen it somewhere but cant remember where..is it in expanded psionics?

[Shoyliguad]

complete warrior i think

[kemmotar]

hmm...really good class for dopplegagners
but a question for detect thoughts. it says that it detects surface thoughts so for example when someone attacks you you get a bonus to ac (from the prestige) cause they are thinking how they will attack you etc. but in social circumstances. if you ask them a question and they bluff it. will you know that they have lied (if they fail the detect thoughts) and will you know the answer to the question? i mean obviously when someone asks you something you first think of the answer, then decide to lie then find the lie and then actually say it. would all this qualify as surface thoughts?

[Emperor Tippy]

hmm...really good class for dopplegagners
but a question for detect thoughts. it says that it detects surface thoughts so for example when someone attacks you you get a bonus to ac (from the prestige) cause they are thinking how they will attack you etc. but in social circumstances. if you ask them a question and they bluff it. will you know that they have lied (if they fail the detect thoughts) and will you know the answer to the question? i mean obviously when someone asks you something you first think of the answer, then decide to lie then find the lie and then actually say it. would all this qualify as surface thoughts?

Yes, you will know.

To bluff a detect thoughts requires an epic bluff check. You can generally get any information out of the person with the proper use of conversation.

Dopplegangers make the best spies.

[Shoyliguad]

invisible blades make nice spies to for wrigling out of tight situations by using a few trick in complete scoundrel you'll have a dagger on you at all times so even if cuaght you can go and kill with it.

[kemmotar]

indeed the perfect spy
lie to me i dont care, i have a constant detect thoughts running you can mindscan just about anyone or anything
but the problem is what do you do to get the save DC up?its 12+charisma and i doubt you can ever get your charisma high enough...even if you take base charisma 18+2 racial+6 from items you get up to 26 so +8 modifier so DC20 which is minimal. since its an ability that runs constantly and with instant mindscan the other would have to roll each round till he just gets a bad roll and then you start questioning him. but that might prove to be disadvantegeous in battle...any ideas?
and also any ideas on feats and base class?i was thinking beguiler since it came up before as a good class or wizard maybe...?

[EndgamerAzari]

Two words: Unseen. Seer.

(See Complete Mage.)

[kemmotar]

seems like a good prestige, i looked at it before but it really limits your spellcasting choices.i mean actually going as far as reducing your caster level for all non-divination spells by 3!?plus i never liked the idea of divination in a game. with right smart uses of the correct spell you can just unravel the whole plot in a few rounds thus practically destroying the DM's story and spoiling the fun for everyone...
besides he's not really a spy...there's no adventure no thrill...you just sit around and find out stuff by casting spells when sitting in your room

[Toliudar]

I think that kemmotar is talking about the kind of generalist secret agent, able to infiltrate, kill, do a bunch of things. A diviner is less a spy in this sense than a kind of peeping tom.

Both are going to be difficult to handle in a multi-player game. As Person_Man has pointed out, I'd dread having this guy in my campaign. Not only am I having to constantly pass him notes (or have quiet conversations with the player) about the surface thoughts of every NPC that catches his eye, but his abilities are only really going to shine in a solo context.

Plus, the build is only going to come together at very high levels. So...when he eventually gets to, say, ECL 18, and he's got Wizard 3, druid 1, Arcane Hierophant 1, and Chameleon 3, his fellow players are casting 9th level spells.

If you've got a doppelganger already, how much better do you really need to be at spying? Take a couple levels of rogue or beguiler, go into mindspy, and be immediately useful as a secondary meleeist and party face.

[kemmotar]

Exactly as Toliudar said, that was my main problem. Although i would have multiple spell lists but only low level spells what with the multiple classes and LA+4.
I was thinking about slipping into mindspy since it epitomizes the dopplegagners detect thoughts ability and you can mindscan for people at a time.
But then again the dilema is what should the base class should be?
the obvious are wizard/beguiler and rogue. the obvious problem again is that 5 levels in mindspy you lose most of your spellcasting advantages and the LA +4 so you've essentially fallen 9 spellcasting levels behind everyobdy else...
Rogue would be a good choice but the only prerequisite for mindspy is 8 ranks in concentration which is not a class skill for the rogue...so where do we go for concentration?is there a class i can actually benefit from by taking one (or more) levels that has it?

[Mr the Geoff]

Spymasters are great.

My DM currently has a spymster as a NPC. Currently the same npc is 2 of our main contacts (that I know of ooc, maybe more) and a totally slippery little sod.

WHen he went missing (actually one of his personas went missing, he was still there as an alternate identity) our druid used every spell slot he could on scrying, while buffed up to the eyeballs, only to find that the npc made evey single save. (another feature of the class is if he ever fails the save we only get information about the persona, not the person).

In a straight up fight he would be toast in 2 rounds, the beauty of the character is he never gets in a standup fight, usually because you think he is your friend, or you can't find the person you are looking for.

[kemmotar]

for a PC that is rather prone to natural 1 and whose DM loves to kill i learned my lesson...my current character is a monk that no longer sleeps (so i wont get ambushed) no longer eats or drinks (so i dont get poisoned)!!thank you tatooed monk prestige class...
also i got about +19 on each save and i'm level 9, 102 HP and fast healing 3
and still he manages to kill me! or at least get me to -1...
so i'm to assume that my spymaster would be killed pretty quickly what with practically no way to defend himself in combat and a natural one on a disguise or bluff check can get you in a pretty bad battle...
its a good npc prestige though and maybe a prestige for your cohort (!)
but i wouldnt wanna hold up my whole group while i literally find everything about the BBEG hideout for example, spend one hour of gametime, get in, get out and then let the brutes handle the battle...firstly they would probably hate me! secondly, its nice to roleplay but not in the expense of others...
besides a mindspy can mindscan anyone within one round at level 4...
he can also work really well as a scout what with the constant detect thoughts 60ft sphere...you dont even need to see them and you already know what the rogue hidden 50ft away is thinking about...not to mention being impossible to ambush...
so mindspy does have quite a bit of power in battle as well as spying without emphasizing too much on spying...i think spymaster i kinda excessive as a pc class...
but any ideas on feats for mindspy?maybe something to help with detect thoughts?higher DC?
does heighten spell like ability exist even?

[Person_Man]

Kemmotar, I'm having a really hard time reading what you write because you don't use capital letters, spacing, or proper punctuation. So I basically just skimmed your posts. I apologize if my advice is not germane because of this.

I agree with Tellah that Rich's Factotum would be a good idea for you.

You might also want to consider playing an undead or construct. This will make you immune to all mind-affecting effects (Know Alignment, Detect Thoughts, Charm, Dominate) and Constitution damage (so you can wear a Ring of X-Ray Vision all day!). All you need is an Amulet of Proof Against Detection and Location and a lot of ranks in Disguise and the social Skills, and you'll be set.

[Fax Celestis]

Perhaps a Factotum/Spymaster/Mountebank would be right up your alley, if you're not looking for casting.

[kemmotar]

First, i apologize for the "format" of the posts...Normally i type too quickly to think about the format so i usually just ignore it

So, my first question would be where can i find factotum? I'm guessing its class right?
Secondly, i was thinking sword-sage/mindspy dopplegagner with the shadow hand and diamond mind discipline. That way i can also be of help in combat and pretty much abuse my + in attack roll if I'm reading the opponent's mind with extra attacks. Haven't looked at the diamond mind maneuvers yet but from what I've seen the shadow hand ones provide some good protection plus i can use shadow jaunt/shadow stride/shadow blink maneuvers to get out of sticky situations or close in for detect thoughts...
I'll look at the mountebank prestige, I've seen it around somewhere...

[Fax Celestis]

Mountebank appears in Comp. Scoundrel.

[kemmotar]

Well...mountebank is pretty much a more useful version of the spymaster. Alter egos function pretty much as a disguise but you assume them via a spell like ability (like alter self) so no disguise check. It would be kinda useless then combined with a dopplegagner ( no idea why i'm so obsessed with playing a dopplegagner...). Good points of it are dimension door-like ability and the first level ability to add your intelligence to your bluff, so massive bluff checks...

If you just get 1 level in mountebank to balance the massive disguise checks with the first level ability for extra bluff...hmmm...
Though the mountebank would stack better with rogue so when he turns his back at you he gets a few daggers in the ribs for a few sweet +d6

but if i played a mountebank it would probably be as an assassin...kill a shopkeeper or someone known to the future victim, become him with alter ego and then strike when he's not looking. Then you slip into your normal appearance and act surprised that (the name of the person you were impersonating) would do such a thing...pity you destroyed his body so no one will ever know where the murderer went...
The problem with this its not a spy and an assassin does not blend well with groups...

Now in my eyes spymaster is pretty useless since you only get some very spy specific abilities and those abilities focus on not being caught while not giving you anything to find information with...

Sure a spymaster could impersonate a guard and find documents concerning what they're looking for or find the layout of the building, but then again if information is not so forthcoming your only chances to actually find anything out is through sense motive. Unless i've missed something that's what spymaster seems to be...