Female Knight Titles

[ThinkMinty]

In the way that male knights are addressed as Sir...what would one call a female knight? As far as titles go.

[Amaril]

I believe Dame is the official equivalent, though personally I like to go the Dragon Age route of changing Sir to Ser and having it be gender-neutral (I guess changing the letter isn't all that necessary, but to me it helps divorce the title from its real-world history of being very much associated with men and not women).

[hamishspence]

Wasn't Dame the historical standard?

That said, in fantasy novels it's very common for Sir to be treated as applicable to both.

[Ninja_Prawn]

I believe Dame is the modern equivalent. Though I do recall...

Spoiler: Anecdote

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When I was in school, we used to call male teachers "sir" and female teachers "miss". One of our female teachers (of design technology) was an army reservist - I believe she was promoted to Major when I was in the sixth form - and we asked her if she'd rather be called "sir". She said she'd prefer to be called "ma'am". I don't know if that was technically correct, but we didn't argue.

In D&D I prefer to have different NPCs address knights differently - the faerie princess says "Madame la Chevalière", the unwashed commoner says "m'lady knight", the slightly thick nobleman says "Madame <Name>", the hurried sheriff says "ma'am"... probably none of them are right, but that's part of their charm!

[Rusvul]

If just calling them Sir bothers you, or you care about being particularly historically accurate, then Dame. Otherwise, I don't think there's any problem with Sir. Alternately, you could go the route of 'milady' and 'milord' for heralds and such.

[Draconium]

I believe that modern-day military standards use "Sir" to address either gender, so you could always do that. Or you could use "Dame" or "Ma'am" as well.

[Mr.Moron]

I've seen "Sir", "Lady", "Lord", "Dame" all used in different settings and contexts. I've also seen it where regardless of gender folks are referred to by specific title or rank Stacy Brown: Guardian Knight might called "Guardian Brown" or Stacy Brown: 5th Seat of the Temple Knights would be "5th Stacy". Really I'd just go with whatever you think sounds coolest assuming there is nothing official for the universe you're working in.

I tend to lean towards being addressed by Rank/Station most of the time personally, but that's me.

[Kitten Champion]

Orlando Furioso, which I'm reading now, refers to Bradamante - who is a female knight - as lady. Though it typically ignores the honorific and simply refers to her as Bradamante.

[Keltest]

I believe Sir (or Ser, if you like Dragon Age), Dame or Lady would all be usable.

[Solaris]

I believe Dame is the modern equivalent. Though I do recall...

Spoiler: Anecdote

Show

When I was in school, we used to call male teachers "sir" and female teachers "miss". One of our female teachers (of design technology) was an army reservist - I believe she was promoted to Major when I was in the sixth form - and we asked her if she'd rather be called "sir". She said she'd prefer to be called "ma'am". I don't know if that was technically correct, but we didn't argue.

In D&D I prefer to have different NPCs address knights differently - the faerie princess says "Madame la Chevalière", the unwashed commoner says "m'lady knight", the slightly thick nobleman says "Madame <Name>", the hurried sheriff says "ma'am"... probably none of them are right, but that's part of their charm!

She was correct. The military tends to be very conservative in its forms of address, and doesn't much care for gender-neutering gendered forms.

Of course, I wouldn't recommend referring to an enlisted personnel or NCO by "Sir" or "Ma'am". That's a form strictly reserved for officers, and I've taken offense to people calling me "Sir" when my rank clearly says "Sergeant".

I believe that modern-day military standards use "Sir" to address either gender, so you could always do that. Or you could use "Dame" or "Ma'am" as well.

Not in the United States military, it isn't. I haven't played much with foreign troops, but I'm reasonably certain it's not true in the anglophone militaries either. "Ma'am" is the proper form of address for a female officer if you're military; female enlisted personnel are addressed by their rank (if an NCO) or surname (if junior enlisted). It's also acceptable to address a junior troop by her surname, particularly if there are none of her subordinates around to hear you do it.

If you're a civilian, the proper form of address for a military person is their rank.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

For at least modern day knighted women, wikipedia suggests:

The equivalent term for a knighted woman or baronetess is Dame, or "Lady" for the wife of a knight or baronet.

[DavidSh]

Orlando Furioso, which I'm reading now, refers to Bradamante - who is a female knight - as lady. Though it typically ignores the honorific and simply refers to her as Bradamante.

Ludovico Ariosto's Orlando Furioso? "Lady" must be the choice of the translator. My mastery of Italian is very poor, but in http://digilander.libero.it/testi_di_ariosto/index.html I only see "donzella" used to refer to her, besides her name.

[TheOOB]

I've seen a couple settings where if they are currently dressed for combat it's sir, and otherwise it's lady or dame. Gender doesn't matter when your armed and armored.

Real world examples are few and far between, and almost always exceptions so there never really was a standard, and different fantasy settings do it differently.

[Cazero]

The original french word that became Sir was gender specific, and the female equivalent would be Lady (translated from Dame). Madam(e) simply means the Lady in question is your liege.

[LudicSavant]

Time to break out the historical sources in this thread.

http://www.heraldica.org/topics/orders/wom-kn.htm

[Templarkommando]

For a woman that holds the heraldic rank of "Knight," Dame is appropriate as far as I know. I would imagine that this would change depending on your setting. Lady is likely a good variant.

I'm reminded of the Honor Harrington series. On the off-chance that someone hasn't read it though, I'll put that info in spoilers

Spoiler

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Honor Harrington is a series with several books in the main series. Her service is so distinguished that she has received numerous feudal titles to recognize her. At the latest point in the series, her full name follows thusly: Lady Dame Honor Stephanie Alexander-Harrington, Steadholder Harrington, Duchess Harrington, Countess White Haven.

Another interesting study in women with titles includes various monarchs. The example that springs immediately to my mind is the present Queen of England:

Spoiler

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"Her Majesty Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God, of Great Britain, Ireland and the British Dominions beyond the Seas Queen, Defender of the Faith, Duchess of Edinburgh, Countess of Merioneth, Baroness Greenwich, Duke of Lancaster, Lord of Mann, Duke of Normandy, Sovereign of the Most Honourable Order of the Garter, Sovereign of the Most Honourable Order of the Bath, Sovereign of the Most Ancient and Most Noble Order of the Thistle, Sovereign of the Most Illustrious Order of Saint Patrick, Sovereign of the Most Distinguished Order of Saint Michael and Saint George, Sovereign of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire, Sovereign of the Distinguished Service Order, Sovereign of the Imperial Service Order, Sovereign of the Most Exalted Order of the Star of India, Sovereign of the Most Eminent Order of the Indian Empire, Sovereign of the Order of British India, Sovereign of the Indian Order of Merit, Sovereign of the Order of Burma, Sovereign of the Royal Order of Victoria and Albert, Sovereign of the Royal Family Order of King Edward VII, Sovereign of the Order of Merit, Sovereign of the Order of the Companions of Honour, Sovereign of the Royal Victorian Order, Sovereign of the Most Venerable Order of the Hospital of St John of Jerusalem."

[snacksmoto]

One military woman I used to know insisted on being called "Sir" if she were to be addressed in a military fashion. Her reasoning was that she was not to be coddled simply because she had breasts. She earned her rank just like everyone else of that rank and having breasts made her commands no different than anyone else of that rank.

She used an analogy: "Do you call one ball peen hammer any different than another ball peen hammer? Is one ball peen hammer more capable than another ball peen hammer or can both do the job they are designed for? A ball peen hammer is called something different than a sledgehammer because they have different capabilities."

[Aedilred]

In the way that male knights are addressed as Sir...what would one call a female knight? As far as titles go.

It depends whether you mean as a title, or as an address.

As people have mentioned, the equivalent would be "Dame" as a title, and "Ma'am" as an address. This is generally standard use in the UK at least: "ma'am" being the equivalent of "sir" for denoting respect. The wife of a knight is a "Lady".

(As a general note, for determining how to address people of different station using traditional English forms, check out the Debretts website for the most comprehensive guide you can imagine. It has a slightly fusty reputation but is perfect for this sort of thing).

Of course, in your own setting, you can make up your own rules, but I always tend to think it's worth knowing the rules first before you start breaking them.

[goto124]

Huh, I expected to see 'there were no female knights'. Different cultures or eras?

[Cybren]

If you're a civilian, the proper form of address for a military person is their rank.

Well, yes, sort of, except since the US is an egalitarian society Mr/Ms are appropriate styles of address for anyone. What's polite and what's expected etiquette are different things after all, since styles of address are more about required etiquette than just politeness.

[LudicSavant]

Huh, I expected to see 'there were no female knights'. Different cultures or eras?

None of that nonsense here. There were plenty of female knights in various eras.

For instance, there was the Order of the Hatchet: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_the_Hatchet

Also, here's an article from io9: http://io9.com/what-kind-of-armor-di...ear-1502779338

Also, for a scholarly journal article: http://www.researchgate.net/publicat...edieval_Europe

[Solaris]

Well, yes, sort of, except since the US is an egalitarian society Mr/Ms are appropriate styles of address for anyone. What's polite and what's expected etiquette are different things after all, since styles of address are more about required etiquette than just politeness.

Nope. "Mr/Ms" is appropriate only for addressing warrant officers and civilians.

Just because the other 99.5% of the population doesn't know better doesn't make it appropriate.

[Cybren]

Nope. "Mr/Ms" is appropriate only for addressing warrant officers and civilians.

Just because the other 99.5% of the population doesn't know better doesn't make it appropriate.

No like, literally. The old rules for styles of address were codified and rigid. Mr was a style of address reserved only for social superiors.

Consciousness of manners of addressing people is solely a marker of politeness, because we ostensibly live in a classless society.

[Solaris]

No like, literally. The old rules for styles of address were codified and rigid. Mr was a style of address reserved only for social superiors.

Consciousness of manners of addressing people is solely a marker of politeness, because we ostensibly live in a classless society.

No, really, I kinda know what I'm talking about when I'm speaking about forms of address for US military personnel. You can even look it up if you don't believe me.

It's covered in Table 1-1 of AR 600-20 for the Army. The other branches have similar regulatory documents, and I'm pretty sure there's a DoD one out there as well but I'm really not interested in scrounging it up.

But by all means, continue telling me that my soldiers should have addressed me as "Mr" and I should have done the same to my commander and first sergeant.

[dps]

But by all means, continue telling me that my soldiers should have addressed me as "Mr" and I should have done the same to my commander and first sergeant.

Unless I misread his post, Cybren wasn't talking about how soldiers address each other; he was talking about how civilians address them. We're such an informal society anymore, and there are so few situations in everyday civilian life in which we normally use titles anymore, that I have no idea what the correct formal protocol is for a civilian addressing a member of the armed forces, so I don't know if he's right or not. But whatever military regulations say about it, they aren't going to be legally binding on civilians.

[Kitten Champion]

Ludovico Ariosto's Orlando Furioso? "Lady" must be the choice of the translator. My mastery of Italian is very poor, but in http://digilander.libero.it/testi_di_ariosto/index.html I only see "donzella" used to refer to her, besides her name.

I see "donna" in canto XI which I believe is the Italian equivalent of lady? Though I'm too unfamiliar with Italian to know things like context or wordplay or whatever and Ariosto clearly wasn't confined to standard prose so... blah. I go with the translator because the translator's put more effort into this than me.

Anyways, I think Dame is fine, as is Sir, Ser, Lady, or Madam. In the end it just needs to be self-consistent and obviously intended as a honorific, any D&D or similar setting would have had one for a while and be pretty used to it.

Though, while speaking specifically of D&D, I'd think the various novels, games, tie-ins, etc. would have addressed this at some point. What did, for instance, Neverwinter Nights use?

[TeChameleon]

Nope. "Mr/Ms" is appropriate only for addressing warrant officers and civilians.

Just because the other 99.5% of the population doesn't know better doesn't make it appropriate.

There are a handful of civilians that would be likely to get more than a little tetchy about it as well- those who have earned doctorates (especially of the medical variety) spring to mind rather readily. Also those of the feminine persuasion who are married and somewhat older-fashioned might rather take exception at being 'Ms'-taken.

... I'd apologize for the pun, but I don't feel like it

[Kami2awa]

This might be useful:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forms_...ingdom#Knights

I think "vastly overcomplicated" sums it up quite well.

As regards academic titles, I have one and avoid using it too often because firstly it can sound a bit pretentious, secondly it can cause issues with computer systems that don't recognise that (for example) Mr Smith and Dr Smith are the same person, and thirdly it can cause confusion or even legal trouble in actual emergencies (calling yourself Doctor when you are not a medical doctor is asking for trouble if someone is unwell).

[Coidzor]

No, really, I kinda know what I'm talking about when I'm speaking about forms of address for US military personnel. You can even look it up if you don't believe me.

It's covered in Table 1-1 of AR 600-20 for the Army. The other branches have similar regulatory documents, and I'm pretty sure there's a DoD one out there as well but I'm really not interested in scrounging it up.

But by all means, continue telling me that my soldiers should have addressed me as "Mr" and I should have done the same to my commander and first sergeant.

I believe it's more to do with you being Mr. Solaris to strangers outside of interacting with you in uniform or in such contexts as your service is pertinent.

It was a bit wonky though, I must admit, so maybe I misgathered.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Solaris ia talking about internal military regulations. According to those, civilians should adress military personel as [what Solaris said]. In practice these are rules that civilians working for (or regularly working with) the military know and follow, unless they like dishonorable discharge. Cybren is talking about all the people that make up the rest of the world. If a lieutenant commander in uniform walks into a supermarket and addresses the manager (presumably to warn him about terrorist cucumbers, because that's the least likely reason I could come up with) mister [last name], sir, lieutenant commander, commander or even lieutenant are all appropriate forms of address (do expect to get corrected if you keep consistently using that last one though). It's a civilian conversation, it isn't regulated by the strict rules of the military, but rather mostly by the rule "if you understood what I meant I said the right thing".

According to my personal regulations I should be addressed as "Godking of the Universe", but it's not like everyone respects that tradition you know.

It's similar with knights. Dame [full name] appears the appropriate form of address, or in some traditions Sir [the same thing] (although I figure this egalitarian approach to be more common in modern days and particularly in science fiction than in most historical settings). For a hermit who lives on a hill with a bunch of sheep though, any form that shows a certain amount of respect will do, unless the knight in question is a jerk/bitch/whatever the right version of that one is and feels like beating up a commoner for not sticking to proper etiquette.