Fighter Feats

[lillitheris]

I'm starting in a new epic level game and I've found myself needing to select 19 feats. Considering the sheer wealth of feats available in all of the many different books, I'm finding choosing 19 little feats maddening.

So, I'm asking for help.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

I'll be playing a level 20 fighter/9 Warblade.

[Emperor Tippy]

May I ask, and I don't mean this to be offensive, why exactly are you grabbing 20 levels of fighter in an EPIC game?

[Douglas]

Even sticking with just those two classes, Warblade 20/Fighter 9 would be vastly superior, especially if taken in that order so that all the bonus feats from fighter levels could be epic.

[lillitheris]

The DM handed us each character concepts and this one was mine.

[Dark_Wind]

Or Wizard 29. What!? I'm not the only one who was thinking it! Seriously, though, unless you, as a melee character, wish to be outclassed by the casters more than you already will be, scrap some (read:most) of those fighter levels for something useful, like initiator levels or a PrC or two.

EDIT: Ninja'd. Ouch. I'd hit my DM with a sourcebook if he ever forced a build on me and said "play this". If he ever tried to force a build that was that bad on me, I'd drop all of my sourcebooks on his head. From great height.

[lillitheris]

Perhaps I should be more precise in saying, I was told I was playing a level 20 fighter/ 9 warblade. The rest was for me to fill in.

Yeah, I wasn't real thrilled about it. There were a stack of characters to choose from and I was the second to the last to choose and trust me, it was better than the other 3 left.

[The_Pyre]

Well, maybe we ought to start with stuff you ought not get, like... uhh... hmmm... where do we start?

By the way, I'm pretty curious what the 3 others are. How bad are they, really, and what is your DM planning that he'd make so many poor choices available?

[Emperor Tippy]

Hmmm

I recommend that you die in the first battle and ask to build a character that can actually survive at Epic levels.

How do ToB classes work in epic anyways? I haven't seen anything published by WoTC about it.

[Talya]

On the plus side, the initiator level of that character starts at 19.

What order were the classes taken in? I don't imagine the DM worked that out for you...but it really matters.

Every 2 fighter levels count as a single level of warblade, for their initiator level. This gives you access to the highest level maneuvers and stances in the book. I believe martial study and the like are also valid fighter bonus feats, meaning you could really trick out that warblade. Even at 20ftr/9warblade, you can end up being more warblade than fighter.

[Emperor Tippy]

Hmm.

What books are allowed?

Please say everything.

And what setting?

Please say Forgotten realms.

[lillitheris]

Triumph!

OK, after much complaining (pretty much all day), he said I can make my second set of levels whatever I want. However, I have to keep the warblade as this is part of his story. So, I'll be playing a level 20 warblade/9 (to be determined and open to suggestions). No psionics in the world.

It is a dragonlance/forgotten realms cross-over world.

All books are allowed.

This still leaves me needing feats.

[Talya]

Triumph!

OK, after much complaining (pretty much all day), he said I can make my second set of levels whatever I want. However, I have to keep the warblade as this is part of his story. So, I'll be playing a level 20 warblade/9 (to be determined and open to suggestions).

20 warblade/9 dervish would be godly, but using a PrC for those 9 might be a bit much for your DM.

It would impact your feats chosen, though.

[Emperor Tippy]

Hmm.

Well I was goign to say play Pun-Pun to show the DM the error of his ways. But he apparently decided to be nice.

Well warblade has no epic progression so you can't take the last 9 levels in that. Putting all 9 in fighter would get you some nice epic bonus feats.

But lets face it, your a non caster in epic. You lose.

[lillitheris]

Which books is the dervish in?

[Talya]

Hmm.

Well I was goign to say play Pun-Pun to show the DM the error of his ways. But he apparently decided to be nice.

Well warblade has no epic progression so you can't take the last 9 levels in that. Putting all 9 in fighter would get you some nice epic bonus feats.

But lets face it, your a non caster in epic. You lose.

As long as they can get flight, some of those top level martial maneuvers rival 9th level spells.

And perhaps the DM will "just say no" to the ******** that is epic spellcasting.

[JaronK]

Warblade 20/Swashbuckler 3/Invisible Blade 5/Monk 1 might be interesting... Grab a pair of Lifedrinker Kukris (Lifedrinker is a special weapon in the DMG... it's usually a longsword but changing weapon type shouldn't be a problem). Be a Necropolitan Human, and use Blood in the Water. Now every time you hit, they take 2 negative levels and you gain some temporary hitpoints. If Necropolitan isn't allowed, get Tomb Tainted Soul... same thing, for this purpose.

Go for as many attacks as you can get. Get Carmendine Monk for Int to AC twice. You'll be the smartest crazed feral warrior ever.

JaronK

[Counterpower]

First: He gave you a build, and the first thing we do is question the concept? What is so hard about just answering his question instead of just turning this into another wizard v. fighter debate?

Anyway, for feats: If you want, you could supplement the warblade's low selection of manuvers and/or stances with Martial Study or Martial Stance. But then again, that's me as a definite swordsage person speaking, so I may just be used to lots of manuvers. Most of the rest of ToB feats are style-specific, but I do recommend Adaptive Style. The ability to change what manuvers you have available in one round will almost certainly be useful. Beyond that, I would go with the best style-specific weapon you can find and augment it with the appropriate feats. Obviously, if you want TWF, the relevant feats will be necessary. Power Attack for THF, etc. For a warblade, the Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization feat lines probably might not be a bad idea, especially since you can switch them to any weapon with that weapon and 1 hour's worth of free time.

Hope that helps.

[Fourth Tempter]

Dervish is normally very good, but it is a poor fit for the Warblade--Warblades have maneuvers, and as such will be likely to use them rather than taking full attack actions. Warblades are also already mobile, rendering Dervish Dance rather irrelevant.

Must you take 20 levels of Warblade? If not, I suggest a Jade Phoenix Mage warrior/spellcaster. You will start as a warblade and use maneuvers as a warblade, but also be able to cast spells.

If you must have 20 Warblade levels, your best options would be to mutliclass into Ur-Priest (if you do not mind being Eeeeeeeeevil), or a Tome of Battle class or Prestige Class, such as Crusader or Eternal Blade.

Attempt to convince the spellcasters in your party to either avoid the Epic Spellcasting feat, or to craft Epic Spells for you that will help you be effective (and survive).

Edited to add: Counterpower, the difficulty people are having with the initial build is the essentially total unviability of the Fighter in epic levels. The Fighter is a poor enough class in high-level play; in epic, where Epic Spellcasting is essentially the only thing that matters, and if you ignore it you have feats such as Multispell, Automatic Quicken Spell, Improved Metamagic, and the like, playing a Fighter is akin to sitting out nine out of ten fights.

[Talya]

Dervish is normally very good, but it is a poor fit for the Warblade--Warblades have maneuvers, and as such will be likely to use them rather than taking full attack actions. Warblades are also already mobile, rendering Dervish Dance rather irrelevant.

Two reasons why that's not necessarily true:

1) Not all maneuvers are unavailable during a dervish dance. Sure, Strikes are. But Boosts and Counters work just fine while dancing. Not to mention stances. Best dervish I've ever seen made awesome use of stances, boosts, and counters.

2) You don't always dervish dance. Strikes are good in those cases where you can't, or it's not optimal.

[lillitheris]

The main reason I decided to ask for help was because I haven't played a epic character since AD&D. That was an entirely different beast.

Frankly, I have no idea what fighters are like in epic games as I haven't played one in 3.5. From the sounds of it, I'm likely going to die instantaneously or perhaps wish I could die instantaneously.

The sheer volume of information is completely mind boggling and since I have to have the majority of what he gave me, I thought I'd just ask for help.

Since I'm stuck with the warblade regardless, I'd like to do the best I can with the 9 levels I've got to play with.

Oh, and they can't be evil. They have to be true neutral up.

[Fourth Tempter]

That is true, but many of the Warblade's most potent maneuvers are Strikes. Each and every one of the ninth-level maneuvers is a strike; White Raven Hammer, Diamond Nightmare Blade, Swooping Dragon Strike, Lightning Throw... a Dervish build could certainly work, and better than I first thought, but it would be sacrificing a lot.
There would also be the terrible decision of giving up Dance of a Thousand Cuts or Stance Mastery (I would keep Stance Mastery).

[Fourth Tempter]

The main reason I decided to ask for help was because I haven't played a epic character since AD&D. That was an entirely different beast.

Frankly, I have no idea what fighters are like in epic games as I haven't played one in 3.5. From the sounds of it, I'm likely going to die instantaneously or perhaps wish I could die instantaneously.

The sheer volume of information is completely mind boggling and since I have to have the majority of what he gave me, I thought I'd just ask for help.

Since I'm stuck with the warblade regardless, I'd like to do the best I can with the 9 levels I've got to play with.

Very well--if you must take 20 levels of Warblade, so be it. It is a significant improvement on 20 levels of Fighter.

Human Warblade 1: Aberrant Blood (Lords of Madness), Stand Still
Warblade 3: Power Attack
Warblade 5: Combat Reflexes (Bonus)
Warblade 6: Aberrant Reach (LoM)
Warblade 9: Ironheart Aura (Bonus)
Warblade 9: Stormguard Warrior
Warblade 12: Robilar's Gambit (PHB II)
Warblade 13: Endurance (Bonus)
Warblade 15: Steadfast Determination (PHB II)
Warblade 18: Adaptive Style

If you can take Flaws, I suggest Shaky for Improved Unarmed Strike and Vulnerable for Deflect Arrows. This will allow you to take Infinite Deflection and Exceptional Deflection in epic levels.

You have several options, here.
-Play a Changeling, lose Adaptive Style and move the other feats down as appropriate for loss of the Human Bonus Feat, and enter the Complete Warrior's Warshaper prestige class, for which changelings qualify. Follow this up with Crusader or Swordsage. This would get you extra reach, a natural attack, +4 Strength and Constitution, immunity to critical hits, and other benefits. Follow up with levels of Crusader or Swordsage.
-Enter Crusader or Swordsage (or both) on their own. This will give you a second set of maneuvers, including ninth-level ones.
-Enter the Eternal Blade prestige class in the Tome of Battle. This will give you fewer maneuvers, but a number of useful Intelligence-based abilities that synergize well with the Warblade.

Do any of these strike you as particularily appealing?

[lillitheris]

I'm gonna go look at Crusader and Swordsage right now. I think the feats sound brilliant. I can take flaws.

This is helping me out a lot, thanks.

[Fourth Tempter]

Probably the best way to go is, in fact, a Changeling Warshaper. Warblade 20/Warshaper 3/Swordsage 1/Crusader 5, say. With your Crusader levels, select Devoted Spirit maneuvers; you should be able to take the eighth and ninth level strikes.

-An example maneuver combination: Greater Divine Surge, Strike of Righteous Vitality, and White Raven Tactics. Attack someone with Greater Divine Surge. Sacrifice as much Constitution as you are allowed for massive damage. Then use White Raven Tactics to grant yourself another turn. During that turn, use Strike of Righteous Vitality to hit someone and Heal all your Constitution damage.

-White Raven Tactics is a particularily noteworthy maneuver. You may use it on yourself, but perhaps a better use would be granting one of the spellcasters another round. This reminds me: Warblade 20/Cleric 1/Crusader 1/Ruby Knight Vindicator 7 is yet another option. Ruby Knight Vindicator has some terrifically potent special abilities.
-Another potent maneuver is Iron Heart Surge. As written, it can end essentially any condition or effect with a duration, so long as you are able to act and are affected. It can destroy epic spells, it can tear Antimagic Fields apart, and so on. Take advantage of this.

-A mainstay of combat: attacks of opportunity. Attacks of opportunity are the currency of high-level melee combat, and a long reach combined with Combat Reflexes and the Crusader's Thicket of Blades stance, as well as Robilar's Gambit, allow you to make many of them. If you exchange the Swordsage level above for a Monk level early in your career, you can receive Improved Unarmed Strike and Deflect Arrows for free, as well as choose the "Overwhelming Attack" variant in the PHB II--making an unarmed attack as a full-round action will cause all of your Attacks of Opportunity to do double damage. Thicket of Blades will ensure that even tumbling and five-foot steps provoke attacks of opprtunity.

-For your epic level feats, select Exceptional Deflection and Infinite Deflection. This will protect you from spells that deliver ranged touch attacks (quite a lot of very powerful ones). For the third feat, ask if you may take an alternate version of the outdated Multispell feat which will grant you an additional swift action in a round (with which you may use Boosts and Counters, for example).

I will have more advice later, on money expenditure and item selection. For now, I am off to actually play D&D rather than merely discussing it on the internet. o-)

Edited to add: I forgot that Warblades also receive a Bonus Feat at level seveteen. Theirs is a poor list (with the useful ones already chosen), so I suggest either Improved Initiative or Blade Meditation.

[Talya]

This warblade/dervish build is quite good, although I'd do more with it:
http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost....&postcount=487

Dancing Blade Form is the main thing its missing. And of course with 20 levels of warblade you could do much more with it. It's not as feat restricted, either.

[Lolth]

I really, really don't want to seem aggressive here, or thread hijack, so I'm just going to ask this:

Why is it when people come out and say "I've got build X, and I'd like some help with it" that people seem to feel an uncontrollable urge to tell them not to play it? "Play a Wizard," or "those suck..."

I mean, I can understand if people come in and say "What do you think of this class?" then saying "I don't like it, I prefer this" but that's not the case most of the time.

Again, really not trying to start trouble, I really want to know.

[Talya]

I really, really don't want to seem aggressive here, or thread hijack, so I'm just going to ask this:

Why is it when people come out and say "I've got build X, and I'd like some help with it" that people seem to feel an uncontrollable urge to tell them not to play it? "Play a Wizard," or "those suck..."

I mean, I can understand if people come in and say "What do you think of this class?" then saying "I don't like it, I prefer this" but that's not the case most of the time.

Again, really not trying to start trouble, I really want to know.

I agree. I was actually having a fun time figuring out what to build with a 20 fighter, 9 warblade...it's not as bad as it would sound.

[Emperor Tippy]

....

Your taking 20 levels of fighter. I can think of only about 3 worse builds you can do.

20 levels of Samurai
20 Levels of Ninja
20 Levels of Monk


Hell, even 20 levels of Warlock is more useful.

[Lolth]

....

Your taking 20 levels of fighter. I can think of only about 3 worse builds you can do.

20 levels of Samurai
20 Levels of Ninja
20 Levels of Monk


Hell, even 20 levels of Warlock is more useful.

Sort of like that. The OP didn't ask for anyone's opinion as to whether their class(es) are meeting with poster approval. They're asking for advice as to Feat selection.

In that vein, sadly, I can't help, since I've never even read the Epic rules.

Sorry!

[Talya]

....

Your taking 20 levels of fighter. I can think of only about 3 worse builds you can do.

20 levels of Samurai
20 Levels of Ninja
20 Levels of Monk


Hell, even 20 levels of Warlock is more useful.

Don't forget, though, that 20 levels of ANYTHING = +10 levels of warblade, for determining what maneuvers/stances you qualify for. There are ways you could have some fun with that.