Epic-level class choices

[Counterpower]

How about "whatever I feel like?"

I saw this on the "Fighter feats" thread, about how completely useless a fighter is at those levels. That isn't even what I'm worried about. What gets my attention is the multitude of people who were suggesting inventive ways to get out of playing the given build or just flat out saying "you're doomed since you're not a caster." Here's a new thought: why should I care? Why should I not create the character I want to play? And before I get the "you'll die in combat or just watch while the wizard does everything" line, I would like to respectfully submit that a good DM is supposed to design challenging encounters and/or adventures. If someone at the table IS that bored, the DM is most assuredly not doing their job right. My fighter 27 will be looking a lot more effective after 96 hours with no chance to refresh spells. (This is epic. It's a distinct possibility, no?)

My next character may very well be a halfling swordsage whose life's dream is to wield Eventide's Edge (the Setting Sun discipline sword) in one hand and Umbral Awn (the Shadow Hand discipline sword) in the other. Sure, TWF isn't the most effective combat option. In fact, anything that just isn't a wizard apparently sucks. Even if that is the case, why would you try to get in my way of how I would like to play my game?

[Raroy]

You can do whatever you want. And people really shouldn't care.

[JaronK]

Here's the issue: if someone wants to play a fighter at epic levels, and the rest of the group has casters, they will not enjoy it. The fighter will just sit there being completely incapable of keeping up. Imagine, if you will, a role playing game where you must save the world from evil. Three people say "I'm playing a super warrior" and one says "I want to play a three year old toddler with a limp." The general advice there, too, would be "don't."

JaronK

[Emperor Tippy]

How about "whatever I feel like?"

I saw this on the "Fighter feats" thread, about how completely useless a fighter is at those levels. That isn't even what I'm worried about. What gets my attention is the multitude of people who were suggesting inventive ways to get out of playing the given build or just flat out saying "you're doomed since you're not a caster." Here's a new thought: why should I care? Why should I not create the character I want to play? And before I get the "you'll die in combat or just watch while the wizard does everything" line, I would like to respectfully submit that a good DM is supposed to design challenging encounters and/or adventures. If someone at the table IS that bored, the DM is most assuredly not doing their job right. My fighter 27 will be looking a lot more effective after 96 hours with no chance to refresh spells. (This is epic. It's a distinct possibility, no?)

Let's see. All the things wrong with this. First, in the thread you are referring to the person doesn't want to take those levels. She pretty much asked for inventive ways to avoid them.

And no, the DM can't do anything about it. I can make a level 29 wizard that can not be killed by anything that doesn't have a caster level higher than his or a divine rank. This wizard also has the ability to kill anything within a thousand miles of him at will as a free action with a save that is so high most gods won't make it.

What will the DM do? AMF? My powers work inside them. Monsters? They die with a look. How exactly does a fighter contribute?

My next character may very well be a halfling swordsage whose life's dream is to wield Eventide's Edge (the Setting Sun discipline sword) in one hand and Umbral Awn (the Shadow Hand discipline sword) in the other. Sure, TWF isn't the most effective combat option. In fact, anything that just isn't a wizard apparently sucks. Even if that is the case, why would you try to get in my way of how I would like to play my game?

ToB classes are quite effective outside of epic. And there are only a few things that truly suck at high levels. Swordsage isn't one of them.

And at epic levels epic spellcasting really does win D&D. Nothing except other epic casters even stands a chance of beating you.

[Dhavaer]

Out of curiosity, is Epic any more balanced without Epic spellcasting?

[Fourth Tempter]

Yes, a thousand times more balanced--which is still very, very unbalanced, mind you.

[Counterspin]

Another titanic hissyfit about other people expressing their opinions. If you don't want to hear people talk about fighters, maybe you should stay out of threads about fighters. We don't care how you play your game at home. No seriously, we don't, I promise. Additionally, if you don't want people to make suggestions about your build, maybe you should avoid posting them on forums that exist for that purpose.

People are trying to help you make an effective character so you can have more fun at your game. Stop acting like people are gathering around to take turns beating you with a stick.

[SpiderBrigade]

It's not like there are a lot of threads where the poster just says "Oh hay guys I was thinking of playing a fighter isn't that cool?" and people jump down his throat with "OMG play a wizard, wizards are better than everything!"

What you DO see is people asking for optimization advice for a certain character concept. Let me repeat that: ASKING FOR OPTIMIZATION ADVICE. In this specific case, asking how to make an effective epic-level character with the given options.

I don't think it's at all out of place to at least point out that it's particularly difficult to make an effective epic character with 20 fighter levels. Nor is it inappropriate to mention that in epic play, spellcasters are even better than usual.

An analogy would be the following, on a pet-training forum. "Hey guys, I was wondering what would be the best way to train a pet to get along with small children. Oh btw it's a rabid hyena." I don't think it's out of place to point out that you're going to have trouble doing that with a rabid hyena, and you might have better luck with a kitten or puppy.

[PaladinBoy]

I understand the OP's point.

Frankly, I think that your DM isn't being very intelligent if he can't come up with a way to give the fighter a way to contribute. Even if that means letting the epic wizards duel while the high level fighters have their fight, then the fighter is still doing something. Whether or not it's a major contribution depends on how much the enemy fighters help the other wizard. And last I checked, "29th level wizard plus 3 29th level fighter bodyguards" can beat "29th level wizard" any time. So you can say that the fighter and his help are absolutely essential fot the PC wizard's survival. Meatshield might not be the most glamorous job, particularly given the wizard's flashy spells, but it is a job.

Conterspin: That might be true, except most of the advice I've seen about playing fighters at epic (including the thread the OP mentioned) boils down to: "You're screwed. Play something else." That's not helping someone make an effective character, that's telling them that they can't.

[Jimp]

I seriously think that we should just sticky two topics at this stage: 1. Let's Talk About PHB Melee and 2. Let's Talk About Full Casters.

My contribution to the the topic:
Once you get 3rd level spells it's wizard city baby.

[Emperor Tippy]

I understand the OP's point.

Frankly, I think that your DM isn't being very intelligent if he can't come up with a way to give the fighter a way to contribute. Even if that means letting the epic wizards duel while the high level fighters have their fight, then the fighter is still doing something. Whether or not it's a major contribution depends on how much the enemy fighters help the other wizard. And last I checked, "29th level wizard plus 3 29th level fighter bodyguards" can beat "29th level wizard" any time. So you can say that the fighter and his help are absolutely essential fot the PC wizard's survival. Meatshield might not be the most glamorous job, particularly given the wizard's flashy spells, but it is a job.

Those 3 fighter would buy the wizard MAYBE a round. You don't get it, do you? My AC is 1,000,000. Every one of my saves is 1,000,000. All my ability scores are 1,000,000. My resistance to Slashing, Piercing, and Bludgeoning weapons is 1,000,000 (meaning you have to deal more than a million damage of 1 of those types to damage me for the round).

All of those fighters also have to make a DC 1,000,000 will save or they will turn on the wizard and attack him.

Conterspin: That might be true, except most of the advice I've seen about playing fighters at epic (including the thread the OP mentioned) boils down to: "You're screwed. Play something else." That's not helping someone make an effective character, that's telling them that they can't.

You can't make an effective epic level fighter if epic magic exists like it does in RAW. It realyl isn't possible.

[Jimp]

29th level fighter

Counter: Forcecage

[Emperor Tippy]

Counter: Forcecage

Why waste a spell? I just say you die and the fighter falls over dead. All I lose is 1 swift action. Which since I took many spell multiple times is something I can cast a bunch of.

Epic magic is just that broken.

[Counterpower]

Those 3 fighter would buy the wizard MAYBE a round. You don't get it, do you? My AC is 1,000,000. Every one of my saves is 1,000,000. All my ability scores are 1,000,000. My resistance to Slashing, Piercing, and Bludgeoning weapons is 1,000,000 (meaning you have to deal more than a million damage of 1 of those types to damage me for the round).

All of those fighters also have to make a DC 1,000,000 will save or they will turn on the wizard and attack him.



You can't make an effective epic level fighter if epic magic exists like it does in RAW. It realyl isn't possible.

You don't seem to get it either, actually. Let me put this simply: actually playing D&D isn't all this theoretical "i can have uber-win saves." Let me point out that regardless of what the book says, that if one of my players tried to create a way by which they could do that, my answer would be no. There is a DM on the other side of the table. In my case, right now, I am that person. If one of my players tells me "I'm going to cast this epic spell and have an AC of 6,000" I wll refuse to allow that. Epic magic is only that broken when the DM allows it to be. Is there a DM in the world who would actually allow such insanity?

And for the scenario that PaladinBoy posted: there is a wizard on both sides here. An arms race between the players and the DM will inevitably end with the players in pieces. Even then, it would be nice to know exactly by what mechanic you would do any of that. Leadership cheese? It isn't a given to make a 29th-level fighter fall over dead. How are you going to mitigate the DC?

Also: this isn't "trying for help creating an epic character." The original thread was "need 19 feats for this build."

JaronK: The analogy doesn't seem right. There is no way a toddler with a limp could be useful. Given a canny DM and a group of people who weren't trying to create demigods, a epic-level fighter could be useful.

Finally: If I want optimization advice on my fighter build, it would be really helpful if people would actually provide it. Instead of saying "you're going to suck anyway. Go play a wizard." Had I been the first person to respond to the aforementioned thread, it might have gone something like "well, fighters aren't all that great at epic level anyway. But, if you're sure, these feats are nice." That wasn't what the OP of that thread got. In fact, my "optimization" efforts generally revolve around what my character is trying to do.

[JaronK]

JaronK: The analogy doesn't seem right. There is no way a toddler with a limp could be useful. Given a canny DM and a group of people who weren't trying to create demigods, a epic-level fighter could be useful.

The issue here is that the power level of an epic fighter, compared to that of an epic spellcaster, is roughly equivalent to the power of a toddler with a limp compared to the terminator. It's so completely not in the same league that there is nothing the fighter could contribute to that the wizard (or druid, or cleric, or whatever) couldn't do with a mere thought (or more to the point, a swift action). Wizards can cast spells like "find the person I name, regardless of where they are or what plane they are on, and kill them unless they make a DC 250 fort save" or "tell me where the magic item I'm searching for is automatically" or "Kill everything of X race" or "make me effectively immune to getting hurt by any physical attack." That's what epic spellcasting does. The fighter just can't even get close.

JaronK

[Emperor Tippy]

You don't seem to get it either, actually. Let me put this simply: actually playing D&D isn't all this theoretical "i can have uber-win saves." Let me point out that regardless of what the book says, that if one of my players tried to create a way by which they could do that, my answer would be no. There is a DM on the other side of the table. In my case, right now, I am that person. If one of my players tells me "I'm going to cast this epic spell and have an AC of 6,000" I wll refuse to allow that. Epic magic is only that broken when the DM allows it to be. Is there a DM in the world who would actually allow such insanity?

What the DM allows or not doesn't matter. You are nerfing the wizard to make the fighter stand half a chance. You are acknowledging that the fighter can't keep up in RAW at those levels.

And for the scenario that PaladinBoy posted: there is a wizard on both sides here. An arms race between the players and the DM will inevitably end with the players in pieces. Even then, it would be nice to know exactly by what mechanic you would do any of that. Leadership cheese? It isn't a given to make a 29th-level fighter fall over dead. How are you going to mitigate the DC?

Who said you need to mitigate the DC? The Spellcraft check is at well over 40,000,000 by this point.

And the wizard on the other side doesn't matter. He could destroy my fighters if I had them. But I don't. He can't 1 hit me and I can't 1 hit him. We would war for eons and the world woudl go up in flames around us but if both were played at peak ability and had exactly the same amount of time to do stuff then it would never end.

Also: this isn't "trying for help creating an epic character." The original thread was "need 19 feats for this build."

JaronK: The analogy doesn't seem right. There is no way a toddler with a limp could be useful. Given a canny DM and a group of people who weren't trying to create demigods, a epic-level fighter could be useful.

NO IT CAN'T. An Epic fighter is more of a liability than he is any potential use.

Finally: If I want optimization advice on my fighter build, it would be really helpful if people would actually provide it. Instead of saying "you're going to suck anyway. Go play a wizard." Had I been the first person to respond to the aforementioned thread, it might have gone something like "well, fighters aren't all that great at epic level anyway. But, if you're sure, these feats are nice." That wasn't what the OP of that thread got. In fact, my "optimization" efforts generally revolve around what my character is trying to do.

The best way to optimize a fighter is to not take more than 2 levels of it. We where offering optimization advice.

[Counterpower]

The issue here is that the power level of an epic fighter, compared to that of an epic spellcaster, is roughly equivalent to the power of a toddler with a limp compared to the terminator. It's so completely not in the same league that there is nothing the fighter could contribute to that the wizard (or druid, or cleric, or whatever) couldn't do with a mere thought (or more to the point, a swift action). Wizards can cast spells like "find the person I name, regardless of where they are or what plane they are on, and kill them unless they make a DC 250 fort save" or "tell me where the magic item I'm searching for is automatically" or "Kill everything of X race" or "make me effectively immune to getting hurt by any physical attack." That's what epic spellcasting does. The fighter just can't even get close.

JaronK

Right. May I point out, from the Epic Level Handbook:

Approval: This is the final step, and it's critically important. You must show your epic spell development work and reasoning to your DM and get his approval. If your DM doesn't approve, then the epic spell cannot be developed.

Emphasis mine. And I still would like to know how exactly you mitigate the insane DCs on those spells, or why they aren't that high.

Tippy: Did I ever once say that the fighter was the wizard's equal? I defy you to quote me in that. My point is that if I want to play a fighter 29, a little help in sorting through all of the possible feats would be welcomed. I wouldn't get that, would I?

Other points: how in the Nine do you get your Spellcraft to 40,000,000 at 29th level? Also, the split second you spend on his fighters is a split second you don't have fighting him. Finally: what if I want to create the best fighter I possibly can? What is wrong with helping someone optimize, as much as can be done, a fighter?

[JaronK]

To mitigate the insane DCs requires summoning solars to help take down those DCs. It's something a Wizard can do trivially easy.

And yes, the DM is supposed to approve of new spells... but as written, the entire system is overpowered. Pretty much any epic spell is going to be insanely strong.

JaronK

[Ulzgoroth]

The approval clause exists, but if you're using it to say either "you can't use the seeds, as printed." or "you can't directly adapt the pre-built epic spells", you're actually saying that you aren't even trying to use the epic magic system. Which is a good choice, it sounds like...

I am curious how you get a skill check above a million without doing something that the DM has every right and reason to simply deny... If it's a ritual spell you can do the 'arbitrarily many permanently summoned outsiders helping' trick to mitigate the DC, but not for things you pull out on a moment's notice.

[Emperor Tippy]

Yeah, but for x5 to the DC you can make a spell permanent. And you can create spells that allow the use of Spell Like abilities at will as a swift action for the duration of the spell.

And the Skill boosts should be permanent in the first place. Same with all the protection spells.

If you want real broken though you use origin of the species to create a race that can do pretty much anythign at will as an ex ability that takes a swift action and that then reproduces and the child switches minds with you. You then dismiss the origional.

[crazedloon]

Really the problem with all this is the idiotic assumption that all DM's are stupid and unfair. I can get CL 70+ as well as 10000 or so spells per day and every spell known as well as saves 70+ at level 20 (i.e. pre epic) if my DM is stupid enough not to restrict me. However it is also the responsibility of the player to restrict his own play style. Sure I can play the above character but 1 would it be fun for my group. 2. Would it be fun for me the answer of course is no it would be far from fun.

[Emperor Tippy]

Oh, no. It's great fun.

You just have fun and do pretty much whatever you want.

I've played both the BBEG and the BBGG in the same game. I kept messing with NPC adventurers.

Tea with Boccob is always fun as well. So is conducting experiments on uninhabited worlds to see what happens when you do whatever.

Social experiments that can take thousands of years to mature are always fun as well.

You are kinda like Sarda the Sage from 8-Bit Theater.

I once spent multipel lifetimes just going around memorizing every book ever published. Nice AutoHypnosis skill.

[Counterpower]

To mitigate the insane DCs requires summoning solars to help take down those DCs. It's something a Wizard can do trivially easy.

And yes, the DM is supposed to approve of new spells... but as written, the entire system is overpowered. Pretty much any epic spell is going to be insanely strong.

JaronK

I assume said solars would help with ritual epic spells? Because honestly, I'm having a hard time thinking of something that would count as a "fair trade" for such service. Actually, I can't see a solar agreeing to such service at all, and I can't see the powers that be being too happy with you bending such creatures to your will, especially considering why you're doing it. Annoying gods is one of the most effective ways of committing assisted suicide.

And technically, as written, it isn't necessarily overpowered. Technically, it's got the approval common-sense check as written. My problem with that is that some people seem to assume that they can cast these spells, when in an actual game with real people, I just can't see it happening.

Tippy: Um........... I would not allow such a massive skill boost in any case. Nor would I allow the origin of species insanity either. Why would you want to do such things in an actual game anyway? Also, have you even considered what effect that has on everyone else's fun? I am running a campaign that I plan to take epic. I can't say I would particularly appreciate a wizard just instantaneously winning everything, and I doubt my players would either.

Ulzgoroth: I can't imagine any problems I would have with the seeds as printed, as long as the fairly restrictive consequences remain intact. Vengeful gaze of god should not be used by a 23rd level caster with no backlash damage. That's not to say it can't be used, but there must be consequences. I can't imagine that 23rd level caster using the aforementioned modifications to that spell using the "summoned outsiders" method, and I would refuse that spell if a player asked. And it's not like I wouldn't know ahead of time. If a player submits a spell that required 1,000 9th level slots sacrificed, I think I would disallow that without a really good explanation.

Thank you, crazedloon.

[dyslexicfaser]

Note to self: never play an epic game. Ever.

[Emperor Tippy]

I assume said solars would help with ritual epic spells? Because honestly, I'm having a hard time thinking of something that would count as a "fair trade" for such service. Actually, I can't see a solar agreeing to such service at all, and I can't see the powers that be being too happy with you bending such creatures to your will, especially considering why you're doing it. Annoying gods is one of the most effective ways of committing assisted suicide.

And technically, as written, it isn't necessarily overpowered. Technically, it's got the approval common-sense check as written. My problem with that is that some people seem to assume that they can cast these spells, when in an actual game with real people, I just can't see it happening.

Oh, I've played in epic games where you do that kind of stuff. It can be quite fun.

Tippy: Um........... I would not allow such a massive skill boost in any case. Nor would I allow the origin of species insanity either. Why would you want to do such things in an actual game anyway? Also, have you even considered what effect that has on everyone else's fun? I am running a campaign that I plan to take epic. I can't say I would particularly appreciate a wizard just instantaneously winning everything, and I doubt my players would either.

Realize, these are extreme examples. Even with reasonable Epic Spellcasting it is broken.

It is fun when you have 3 or 4 people who all have the power and do stuff just for fun.

"Hey bill, want to each build an entire world and after they have evolved, say a million years from now, we let them duke it out in an epic battle?"

"Yeah, that would be fun. We still on for poker tomorrow?"

"Yeah, Boccob is bringing the beer this time."

[PaladinBoy]

If that epic wizard uses his epic magic cheese, then it gets much harder.

PC: "HAH! There's no way that those fighters will succeed this DC 200,000 Will save!"

Enemy: "Counterspell."

PC: "Well..... I can do it 5 more times before the round ends!"

Enemy: "Counterspell. 5 more times. Congratulations on wasting your round."

As a DM, would I want to do that? No. If we've reached that type of arms race, then our game has severe problems, and I would be looking for a different way to solve them. Then again, the approval clause in the epic spell design section means that I wouldn't have to let it get that far.

Also, I do agree that this type of arms race is not likely to end. The two wizards will be foiling each other for a rather long time. And while this is happening, you would have no energy to deal with the enemy fighters....... against a min-maxed epic wizard, leaving him alone for a quarter of a second to deal with a lesser threat will probably be the quarter second he needs. Then again, leaving the fighters alone isn't a particularly good idea either....... the enemy epic wizard would likely massively buff his personal bodyguards. Of course, if you had some help, then you wouldn't have to worry. That's where the fighter comes in. Would it be more effective to play something else? Perhaps. But a fighter will work well enough. And if you want to play a fighter, and you want help optimizing your level 29 fighter, then you should be able to do both.

[Counterpower]

Oh, I've played in epic games where you do that kind of stuff. It can be quite fun.



Realize, these are extreme examples. Even with reasonable Epic Spellcasting it is broken.

It is fun when you have 3 or 4 people who all have the power and do stuff just for fun.

"Hey bill, want to each build an entire world and after they have evolved, say a million years from now, we let them duke it out in an epic battle?"

"Yeah, that would be fun. We still on for poker tomorrow?"

"Yeah, Boccob is bringing the beer this time."

I guess we've finally found the inevitable point in any debate that the two opposing sides just can't resolve, then. I can see that being fun once or twice, but not more than that. As D&D goes, I prefer something with a little more plot and a little more challenge. I believe, for many of the reasons I've already stated, that epic level is capable of that, and can be prevented from degenerating into one PC saying "I win." Regardless of which class you want to play.

[Emperor Tippy]

Get a fighter to deal over 1,000,000 damage per round, make a DC 1,000,000 Will Save, and hit an AC of 1,000,000.

Now make sure they can all do that every round. That is the only time the wizard ever has to worry.

[AtomicKitKat]

I can make a level 29 wizard that can not be killed by anything that doesn't have a caster level higher than his or a divine rank. This wizard also has the ability to kill anything within a thousand miles of him at will as a free action with a save that is so high most gods won't make it.

Except for the pesky fact that anything with a Divine Rank is immune to Instant Death Effects(barring wacky DEM like Hind's Blood), as you mentioned in the first sentence.

[JaronK]

Note to self: never play an epic game. Ever.

More like never play an epic game with epic spellcasting rules.

It's better if casters just get a few more spell slots and access to 10th level slots (for metamagic) and nothing else. Heck, do it right and the melees might even start to catch up a bit.

But yes, epic, as written, is horribly broken, with spellcasters capable of literally warping reality on a whim.

JaronK