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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    SilverClawShift's Avatar

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    Question Backstabbing Compatriots

    How many people have co-players who would double cross them at a moments notice? Is it a personality trait of theirs, or just good roleplaying? Thankfully, in my case, it's the latter.

    My friends can't get together for gaming anytime over the next few days, so we grouped up this afternoon for a pretty long session of getting excited over what we roll on shiny dice, like all good and right people should.
    We decided to play some eberron material randomly (a word about my group, we have very short attention spans, and other gamers have described our playstyle as "like shadowrun" even if we're playing D&D). Our DM is fantastic at coming up with things on the fly, and his notes are usually just ideas scribbled with enough space to try to link them together as a coherant story. This works surprisingly well if you have a quick thinker with a knack for theatrics/cinematic style/dramatic storytelling. It helps that our group tends to cooperate and act as a unit in real life, even when our characters are killing each other. We would rather have an interesting story than claim success in our own minds.

    Which brings me to the title of the thread. Those backstabbing jerks.

    Another trait of our DM is that he lets us get away with absolute murder when it comes to our insane ideas about character builds. None of us are really powergamers, so he tends to give us a blank check when we're picking our race, class, backstory, ect.
    So it wasn't a big deal for me to be a Shifter, with Binder selected as a base class. (an aside that I hope doesn't violate any licenses. Anyone who doesn't know the Binder base class should at least be aware that the fact that you are likely to be persecuted is a huge part of the classes flavor. Binders are considered heretics at BEST by most churches). Binder is also a CHA heavy class, so I become the spokesperson/smoothtalker by default.

    To keep this from turning into a novel, I'll skim over the backstory about this situation the best I can.
    - Around first level, early on in the game, my group (generally chaotic, and good, in various quantities) had to take a low level cleric of the Silver Flame hostage for various reasons I won't get into detail about here.
    - We didn't mean this cleric any harm, and weren't planning on hurting him. We just needed a hostage that the authorities would be worried about being responsible for killing to cover our bases.
    - The party went out for some business while I kept watch over the cleric. I was our Plan B, as the rest of the party could warn that their failing to return to our hideout, alone, would mean me slitting his throat. A bluff, but that was the plan.
    - I'm alone with this sniveling tied up cleric for a good two days. During that time, I kept binding a vestige to keep my power level up and ready in case I found myself in an emergency.
    So on three seperate occasions, this cleric of the silver flame sees me drawing an enigmatic seal, and verbally making a pact with a terrifying monstrosity from outside of reality to share my soul with it for 24 hours. He knows my name.

    *******

    Cut to 3 levels, and a number of months of adventuring later. We're all level 4, and becoming rather notorious. Our group goes by the general style that level 1 is an average person, level 2-3 is exceptionally skilled and noteworthy people, that level 4 is fantastically capable, and that level 5 is the equivalent of an olympic athlete or a noble prize winning scientist or some such. Above level 5 is superheroic to varying degrees.
    So we're a bit infamous in some circles. We're not bad guys, but we're certainly not doing things by the book, off the beaten path, marching to the beat of our own drum-... you get it.
    My group is trying to pass through a mid sized town without much fuss, maybe pick up some gear and refresh our supplies, and head out to our next destination under the radar.

    Because it's relevant to the story at hand, I'll list some facts about me at this point.
    - I have a vestige bound that grants 10 fire resistance
    - I have a class feature that grants 5 fire resistance
    - I have a cute little ring that gives me 10 fire resistance and my DM agrees that they all stack cause he's cool with stuff like that.
    - The vestige I have bound brands a symbol into my palm as a sign of our pact (a temporary brand, but still).
    - The vestige I have bound also gives me the ability to wreath myself in flames. The flames wouldn't hurt me, so the fire resistance doesn't matter, but it's still relevant info.
    - I'm wearing a sort of low-key-but-still-elegant noble outfit, as the partys spokesperson I like to look presentable. My scruffy, scarred up, slightly pungent 'allies' probably look like mercernary bodyguards or something.

    On to the story. Our party decides we could use some healing gear, and the logical place to hit up for something like that is the local temple. Which just happens to be dedicated to the Silver Flame. I'm fairly confident that my charisma will get me through this without hassle, and probably at a discount, despite being a shifter (and therefor a second class citizen in most places, especially to the silver flame).
    I meet the guard in front of the temple and start smooth talking. I introduce us as a party of adventurers, and ask if we might purchase some healing potions to keep us in one peice if we encounter any trouble. The guard says he thinks he's hear of us.
    I put on the charmed/elated act, thinking maybe he'll suck up to the bigshots. I introduce myself as >my name< (DANGER WILL ROBINSON) and reach out to shake his hand.
    He asks, "THE >my name<???"
    "No one but! :)"
    He reaches out to shake my hand. Grabs my wrist. Looks at my palm. Accuses me of being a heretic heathen, declares me guilty on the spot, and tries to abduct me for a swift execution.

    Oh boy.

    The ensuing chaos was remarkable. This bumpkin town is immediately whipped into a frenzy, with people shrieking "Witch!", "Heretic!" ect. so a full on city street full of 1st level commoners, a handful of silver flame guards of undetermined class or level, and a few more higher level tempalrs coming out of the temple. All trying to abduct me.
    In the frenzy, my group has managed to keep a low profile, and comes up with a fantastic idea. As I'm attempting an acrobatic escape/dodge/jackie chan style climbing running and sliding scene, the party rogue comes up, sneak attacks me with a blackjack to the back of the head, and knocks me out cold.
    And they PRESENT ME TO THE GUARDS SAYING THEY CAPTURED ME.

    THOSE RAT BASTARDS.

    They get REWARDED for being the ones to bring me down, and I'm immediately tied to a post and a pyre is built. I wake up as they give a small speech about impurities in the world being cleansed with holy fire, and they light the bonfire. It flares up, and I am officially being burned at the stake for being a heathen.
    While my party looks on with a sick shrug.

    But wait. My story gets better.
    The DM declares that the open flame, combined with my 25 fire resistance, isn't enough to actually do me any damage. The fires flare up, and my poofy noble clothes are now aflame.
    The fire burns through the rope (met with open mouthed staring) before it actually hurts me, thanks to the fire resistance. I crawl down OVER the bonfire, looking for all the world like some japanese horror vision, while literally engulfed in natural flame. I activate my vestiges halo wreath of fire, doubling the intensity of the flame visually, and give my best feral roar while shifting (+2 strength yay) and strike out at the nearest person, a random guy standing in the street in terror. The Dm decides that no real dice roll is needed, as he's frozen in terror, and my clawed, flaming hand rakes most of his face off and drops him. Things near me are starting to combust, and I'm leaving scorching footprints.

    The crowd scrambles like a cattle stampede. All but two of the silver flame templars turn tail and run, screaming into the evening. My 'friends' immediately do a double double cross, the rogue slits ones throat and they all beat the other one to death there in the street. While I stand there. On fire. Staring angrily.

    They tried to play it off that they knew I was going to get out of the situation.

    "We knew you'd be fine, we remembered you had all that fire resistance"
    "no you didn't. You didn't know they would use fire. They could have cut my head off."
    "Oh come on, they ALWAYS burn heretics at the stake..."
    "..."
    "We remembered the fire resistance!"
    "No you didn't"
    "...hmm."
    "*stares angrily*"
    "You know you're still on fire."
    "I am aware."

    We continued adventuring together. Very Very akwardly. With a lot of staring.
    My revenge has so far been subtle, but sweet. As the parties spokesperson, and the one responsible for getting us out of trouble at all costs, I've taken a lot of opportunities to make them look horrible, going so far as the explain in a hushed tone to a guard that our dwarf friend was severely retarded after a troll smacked him around for a while, and that we felt obligated to look out for him.
    Subtle revenge isn't enough though. The campaign isn't over. And if, for one tiny split SECOND, it becomes easier for me to let the party die a horrible death while I walk away whistling? They will be rolling new characters.

    Uh, so, yeah. Anyone else have double crossing bastards they call friends?

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Backstabbing Compatriots

    Wow. Didn't mean to turn that into a small paperback... Sorry

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    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: Backstabbing Compatriots


    Sounds like you have a great group of people to play with. I liked the novel-scene value of the situation. Do you have any other stories?

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    Default Re: Backstabbing Compatriots

    You knew the risks when you chose the class, ma'am. Besides, the mistake was yours. Such is the price of failure, in America.

    Anyway, as party face, be sure to take responsibility for everything your companions do, even if you weren't directly involved. Also, letting them die seems, I don't know, unsporting, shall we say? On the other hand, undermining them in little ways at opportune moments, committing minor offenses and framing a party member (the rogue in particular seems to be a loose cannon) to embarass them. Don't harass them constantly, only when it's convenient. Revenge is meant to be savored, not devoured instantly.

    Personally, I would never betray my allies. Of course, I may happen to play all sides of the field, or switch teams from time to time. I can't betray my allies if they stop being my allies before I start working against them, after all.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Backstabbing Compatriots

    Quote Originally Posted by SilverClawShift View Post
    Wow. Didn't mean to turn that into a small paperback... Sorry
    No apology necessary; it was an awesome story.

    If I were in your position, I wouldn't necessarily go out of my way to make trouble for them (except in small ways for my personal amusement), but I'd definitely start looking out for Number One first and foremost.
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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Backstabbing Compatriots

    That story was made of win and good.

    As for me... some people prefer to let their revenge simmer. I'm a fan of immediate karmic payback. Which would probably involve setting them on fire while they're asleep some point in the near future.
    People seemed to like this better, but only marginally so - the way one might prefer to be stabbed than shot. Optimally, one isn't stabbed or shot. Optimally, one eats some cake! But there are times when cake is not available, and instead we are destroyed. This is the deep poetry of the universe. -- Tycho Brahe

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    DwarfBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: Backstabbing Compatriots

    Even if it was evil and craven, that was awesome on their part. Excellent RP, so long as they were all CN - NE
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    Default Re: Backstabbing Compatriots

    Never betray party members. N-E-V-E-R. There is never a situation in which it's a good idea (unless it's very, very clearly part of a plan)
    For one to claim that he has "character reasons" for doing so is effectively saying "my character is more important than yours; you can be sacrificed to further my roleplaying experience."

    Your party did a bad thing to you, but unfortunately you can't betray them back (Unless your group has some sort of preset understanding about it). Doing so would be to bring out of character problems in game. Even if they deserve it. Which they do. But you can't. Sorry.

    I've fortunately never been betrayed by a party, but I can sympathize with dysfunctional dynamics.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExHunterEmerald
    Incidentally, Armadillo, I'd suggest you were hit by a spark of inspiration, but that would knock your armor off.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faithdreamer View Post
    Do you have any other stories?
    Lots, but most of em probably aren't worth telling. Like when we went to our DM and declared "We're all gonna be bards in the next game".
    DM: "...what?"
    Us: "Bards. All of us."
    DM: "Are you stupid?"
    Us: "Probably!"

    Turned into a really great game though, and is a good example of how our DM can wing it and still make a good game. We drop it on him that we're going to be a party of 5 bards, and he immediately plunges us into a large scale version of the phantom of the opera/murder mystery thriller with all the fixins.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur View Post
    Personally, I would never betray my allies.
    Usually, of course not. They don't usually backstab anyone unless it's in the spirit of the game and fits with the roleplaying.

    That said, my character is extremly extremly bitter about the whole thing. Bitter enough to 'forget' to inform the local authorities that my compatriots are trapped in a maze like dungeon. "Wouldn't want the authorities to try to burn me at the stake again! I'd better just find a new party and head off into the sunset".

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Werebear View Post
    Excellent RP, so long as they were all CN - NE
    Our DM tends to be a little lenient on what alignment means and how it affects you, as an individual. Specifically, being a coward doesn't make you evil, it just means you're a coward. The group wasn't being malicious, just gutless yellow bellied wusses.

    Bastards.

    Quote Originally Posted by ArmorArmadillo View Post
    Never betray party members. N-E-V-E-R. There is never a situation in which it's a good idea (unless it's very, very clearly part of a plan)
    For one to claim that he has "character reasons" for doing so is effectively saying "my character is more important than yours; you can be sacrificed to further my roleplaying experience."

    Your party did a bad thing to you, but unfortunately you can't betray them back.
    Nonsense! If my friends were so uptight about what happened in our game, I'd be looking for a new group. We're keenly aware that it's just a game, and our biggest goal in the game is to create a fun and interesting story, one way or another. Wether that means traumatizing horror, random psychotic comedy, or good old fashioned heroic events.

    If this storyline is going to turn into "Reservoir Dogs in Eberron", then so be it.

    ****

    Edit. Think I figured out this multiple quotes thingy.
    Last edited by SilverClawShift; 2007-05-22 at 11:04 AM.

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    Default Re: Backstabbing Compatriots

    Don't double cross, harm, work against, or thwart another player. Ever. There is no justifiable rationale to do so. Nothing will start arguments and ruin friendships faster.

    If you find yourself thinking "I'm just doing what my character would do in this situation," then you need to change your character concept.

    Playing D&D is just like any other relationship. You don't want to win arguments. Because every time you win an argument, the other person in the relationship loses an argument. So while you might have gotten what you want in the short term, your partner/friend/coworker/whatever has lost what they want, and will often feel hurt, betrayed, ineffectual, or some other negative feeling. And in the long term, it just creates dysfunction, powerlessness, and a poor relationship.

    Instead, you have to approach every situation as if you are on the same team, working towards the same goals. Find solutions you can both be happy about. And when you must argue, do so in a way that is considerate about the other persons thoughts, feelings, and motivations, rather then trying to destroy/discredit them in order to prove your point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Person_Man View Post
    Don't double cross, harm, work against, or thwart another player. Ever.
    Don't thwart another player... like... say... coshing a teammate in the back of the head with a blackjack and handing him over to the Silver Flame to face execution?

    That kind of thwarting?
    People seemed to like this better, but only marginally so - the way one might prefer to be stabbed than shot. Optimally, one isn't stabbed or shot. Optimally, one eats some cake! But there are times when cake is not available, and instead we are destroyed. This is the deep poetry of the universe. -- Tycho Brahe

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    Default Re: Backstabbing Compatriots

    Turnabout is not fairplay. Turn the other cheek.

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    Eh, it depends a lot on your group and the expectations of play. If everyone is clear that backstabbing is allowed, and they're a fairly mature group, there should be no problem, though I wouldn't enjoy it in a long-term campaign. If you're playing an evil party, then backstabbing can be a lot of fun.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piccamo View Post
    Turn the other cheek.
    No.

    We're not 12 year olds who are going to flip over the game board and go home because someone put a hotel on boardwalk.

    They will suffer

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    Default Re: Backstabbing Compatriots

    Don't double cross, harm, work against, or thwart another player. Ever. There is no justifiable rationale to do so. Nothing will start arguments and ruin friendships faster.
    Never betray party members. N-E-V-E-R. There is never a situation in which it's a good idea (unless it's very, very clearly part of a plan)
    Unless it's fun, reasonably in-character and your group is mature enough that it won't result in actual, personal conflict. Interparty betrayals can be fun for those betrayed also; it sounds to me like Silverclaw had fun even if her character didn't.

    Me, I have fond memories of playing a Lawful Good cleric of St. Cuthbert. The rest of the party was a Chaotic Good spellcaster, a Chaotic Neutral wizard and ranger, and a Chaotic Evil rogue. The spellcaster was sort of a help, but pretty random and absent-minded more often than not; the ranger was pretty neutral; and the rogue and wizard were pretty kleptomaniacal. They couldn't do anything with me right there, and might not want to, because I was the one with the healing spells, but we had some fun times with them trying to go behind my back. This wouldn't have been fun if, say, the rogue had coup de graced me in my sleep, but he intentionally refrained from doing that because it wouldn't have been any fun. As it was, several party members were beaten into unconsciousness, robbed, or arrested as a result, but it was all still pretty funny.
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    Orc in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Backstabbing Compatriots

    Wow. That's hilarious.

    Personally? I think if you're going to betray someone else in the party you'd better make sure they can handle it. If they can't, don't do it. If they can, and it'll make a good story and lead to fun for everyone, then go for it.

    I don't like betrayals that much anyway, though. Seems to me there's a bit of a point to being on a team. Using a betrayal of your own to show them, "hey, maybe he would support us more if we'll support him" is only fine if they'll think it's funny and take the veiled lesson in good humor. Otherwise, just lead by example.

    As another note: Sometimes friendships, even those formed in the heat of battle in the darkest dungeon, only go so far. For example, my character is a noble in House Lyrandar in the Eberron setting; I think it's reasonable to assume that if another party member decides to attack/ hamper House Lyrandar, then my character will say, "Have fun in hell" and attack. This becomes a problem if both people steadfastly insist that it's proper RPing for them to fight and neither can handle losing. That might require an OOC discussion.
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    Awesome story. Honestly? You so had that one coming. You took one of them hostage and let him see you binding? And you expected to have any welcome other than "GOT HIM!!!!" at the temple? Hah. Hope you were planning for large amounts of havoc.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilverClawShift View Post
    No.

    We're not 12 year olds who are going to flip over the game board and go home because someone put a hotel on boardwalk.

    They will suffer
    ...but you are planning on starting a cycle of vengeance.

    I don't know your group, I don't know what works for you.

    I'm used to people putting a lot of time effort into their characters, who would probably be pretty disappointed if they died, and REALLY disappointed if another player did.

    If you're group is playing a campaign where they enjoy risking killing each other for the sake of revenge, that's good. But it isn't a sign of maturity or good roleplaying that they're willing to do so.

    D&D is designed to be a cooperative game, and playing it as a competitive one needs to be done only with a very specific understanding of all the players involved, and it is a different play style than the one the game was designed for.

    If someone betrays his party in a standard game, without a sense of previous understanding, what he's doing is wrong. He's risking the entire party's game experience for the sake of his own personal character goal. And if hee tries to justify it by saying that it's "in character" and that the others should be "mature enough to deal with it", all that he's doing is declaring himself better than others to justify his actions.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExHunterEmerald
    Incidentally, Armadillo, I'd suggest you were hit by a spark of inspiration, but that would knock your armor off.

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    Default Re: Backstabbing Compatriots

    While I appreciate being told how my group plays the game wrong, and are immature for not getting offended over a game (with the token "you can do what you want" comment. Saying "no offense" before saying something offensive wouldn't make it inoffensive, and saying "You can do what you want" but following it up with "but you're playing the game wrong" seems pretty unfriendly) we're not trying to re-create the same group of people saving the world over and over again. Sometimes in a story, things go haywire, and sometimes a person (for roleplaying reasons or not) is best off walking away whistling.

    I'm not starting a cycle of vengence, I'm letting a group of characters (not the people playing those characters) get their commupence for watching while a church tried to burn me alive. You don't act that self serving and then trust the person you double crossed, or you wind up on the wrong end of a bottomless pit.

    None of my friends would be so childish that letting a character (justifiably!) order up a bowl of sweet frosty revenge would carry over to a new game. But that's because we act as a team OFF the game board, even on the occasions we're not acting as a team on it. We've played as two small groups competing with each other before. We played a mini campaign where there could be only one clear winner, and all of us were roleplaying an air of civility and crocodile smiles while we shook hands and plotted each others defeats.
    We've also played sessions were most of the players simply weren't important to the central character (a hero of destiny type story) because we all discussed ahead of time what we were going to be playing, and agreed it sounded fun. So I'm R2D2 instead of luke skywalker for one campaign, big deal, it was fun running around as support characters in one players arc of destiny.

    Oh well. We've gotten told we play the game like it was Shadowrun instead of D&D, whatever that means.

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    Default Re: Backstabbing Compatriots

    That is absolutely golden gameplay. I love it. Wish I had a DM like that.

    One thing I did once was remotely similar (very remote actually):

    Me and a friend are playing a rogue and a bard. We have been a bit naughty in the past. As we're walking on a road, some armored guys ride by us without notice. But the bard goes and hails them. They stop, look at us, then attack. I get knocked out. When I'm awake again, I sneak attack the bard and then proceed to beat him senseless while going on a tirade about the virtues of keeping a low profile. Then I tie him up and drag him unconscious through dirt and mud until we get to the next village.

    So I'm sort of a tempered bastard, not exactly a doublecrossing one.
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    Default Re: Backstabbing Compatriots

    That is awesome.

    I consistently play with one other person in most of my games, and theres always some kind of wacky chemistry, whether he's some crazy CN aligned that I have to keep straight or vise versa, or an evil dumb character that likes hitting things with his flail and the other character insisting that he's just chaotic mean or misunderstood, its always fun

    Quote Originally Posted by ArmorArmadillo View Post
    If you're group is playing a campaign where they enjoy risking killing each other for the sake of revenge, that's good. But it isn't a sign of maturity or good roleplaying that they're willing to do so.

    D&D is designed to be a cooperative game, and playing it as a competitive one needs to be done only with a very specific understanding of all the players involved, and it is a different play style than the one the game was designed for.
    Hold the phone, designed to be a cooperative game? D&D is less a designed game and more a designed world. The GM makes the game. that's why he's called the game master. Cooperation is key for certain scenarios, combat and otherwise, but the D&D rules dictate the world itself, not how they are used in it. Revenge isn't a sign of maturity in the character that person is playing, but it has nothing to do with the maturity of the person playing him. Generally speaking, players know the alignments of their team mates, and take those risks when they put their characters in a campaign with them. Good role playing is not about acting as a team, it's about playing a role And characters that have a lot of work in them dying? It's a piece of paper. Retcon is not illegal. There is no real history anywhere preventing you from imagining certain things didn't happen. Personally, I think death adds character. A friend of mine played a bard that died twice. The second time, he came back as a ghost, and was considerably more useful to the party.
    Last edited by Pirate_King; 2007-05-22 at 08:42 PM.
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  22. - Top - End - #22
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Backstabbing Compatriots

    Quote Originally Posted by SilverClawShift View Post
    While I appreciate being told how my group plays the game wrong, and are immature for not getting offended over a game (with the token "you can do what you want" comment. Saying "no offense" before saying something offensive wouldn't make it inoffensive, and saying "You can do what you want" but following it up with "but you're playing the game wrong" seems pretty unfriendly) we're not trying to re-create the same group of people saving the world over and over again. Sometimes in a story, things go haywire, and sometimes a person (for roleplaying reasons or not) is best off walking away whistling.
    I went out of my way to make this very clear: I said that betraying the party is wrong "without a sense of previous understanding."
    All that I said was that playing competitive D&D is a different style of play than standard D&D, please do not take that as a personal attack.
    Last edited by ArmorArmadillo; 2007-05-22 at 10:00 PM.
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  23. - Top - End - #23
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Backstabbing Compatriots

    "standard D&D"

    pah.

    by the way, I just got the megaman reference in your screen name. very nice.
    Last edited by Pirate_King; 2007-05-22 at 08:45 PM.
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  24. - Top - End - #24
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Backstabbing Compatriots

    Quote Originally Posted by ArmorArmadillo View Post
    Your party did a bad thing to you, but unfortunately you can't betray them back (Unless your group has some sort of preset understanding about it). Doing so would be to bring out of character problems in game. Even if they deserve it. Which they do. But you can't. Sorry.
    The way I understand the story it is very much an in-character problem, not an out of character one at all. The group attacked a fellow party member. They should expect repercussions from that, and as the group is described it sounds like they would handle it in good humor. The group I usually play with is much the same way. Infighting is rare, but when it happens it stays in the game, we've never had an out of game problem with it.

    To Silverclaw: I suggest poetic justice. Frame them and turn them in. Wave goodbye and smile while counting your reward as they are hauled off to jail. Have a plan for rescuing them just in case you start feeling guilty about it. Tell them you assumed they would escape on their own, you just needed the cash. After all they "knew" you were fireproof right?
    DMs don't cheat, they just change the rules.

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  25. - Top - End - #25
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallis View Post
    The way I understand the story it is very much an in-character problem, not an out of character one at all. The group attacked a fellow party member. They should expect repercussions from that, and as the group is described it sounds like they would handle it in good humor. The group I usually play with is much the same way. Infighting is rare, but when it happens it stays in the game, we've never had an out of game problem with it.
    Is it In-Character? Separating the overall issue from this specific incident, just because a character does something does not make it an "In-Character" issue. If my character kills a friend's in what was supposed to have been a friendly game, that is a breach of trust on my, as a player's, part. If my friend feels offended at me, he should talk to me about it. Many people don't like to play in an environment where they have to worry about their teammates taking personal grudges or oppourtunistic attacks on them, and that's their right.
    Last edited by ArmorArmadillo; 2007-05-22 at 10:25 PM.
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  26. - Top - End - #26
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    Well, I think the player certainly has something to do with it, but SilverClaw's character must be feeling betrayed as well. He was essentially betrayed and left for dead by his group. They didn't even try to save him: killing those two guards don't really count as a rescue.

    In almost any alignment, that would promote IC ill-feelings, don't you think?
    People seemed to like this better, but only marginally so - the way one might prefer to be stabbed than shot. Optimally, one isn't stabbed or shot. Optimally, one eats some cake! But there are times when cake is not available, and instead we are destroyed. This is the deep poetry of the universe. -- Tycho Brahe

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  27. - Top - End - #27
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    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: Backstabbing Compatriots

    i do. one of my players IS belkar and the most ironic part is he doesn't read OOTS
    I would be a procrastinator, but I keep putting it off.

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    Default Re: Backstabbing Compatriots

    The bitterness is completely in-character, though I have my own suggestion.

    Living well is the best revenge.

    So yeah, be willing to pull them out of a sticky situation where you have no reason to interfere--and then rub it in their faces. If you're pretty sure getting them out of the dire strait they're in looks more dangerous than it actually is (and therefore isn't going to kill you unless you're stupid or unlucky), and everyone knows perfectly well you'd find it much easier to get out on your own--help them anyway, then make sure they know how much they owe you and how much better a person you are. Pull forth the guilt in those treacherous little ingrates' hearts, and make of yourself a saintly paragon of teamwork and forgiveness--and get them to realize that because you are so much more forgiving, so much better a team player, so much more perfect, that they aren't fit to lick your boots and should by rights be worshipping the ground you walk on. Don't say so in so many words, of course--that spoils the effect, and it's so much more satisfying when they come to the conclusion on their own. However, slipping a certain amount of imagery to that effect into your descriptions of your actions can go a long way.

    And you know the best part? You can keep milking it as long as you feel like. Isn't that so much better than just ditching them and never getting to see them all on their knees begging for your forgiveness (and taking the slight risk that they might get out of whatever situation you left them in and come back out for blood)?
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  29. - Top - End - #29
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    So I got my revenge tonight, and it was sweet and tasty.

    One common trait of our games is that we leave a MOUNTAIN of notes after each session. We all carry a small notepad, and anything we need to discuss in private, we scribble on the notepad. Helps keeping out-of-character knowledge from becmoing an issue, because you didn't hear that information in the first place. The most common notes are between the DM and players, but if characters decide to head off to discuss something alone, we can actually plot without the DMs fore-knowledge of our plan. Makes things interesting.
    And we recycle the massive amounts of paper we tear through, don't worry.
    Anyway, the end result is that we don't really raise eyebrows when secret notes are being passed. It's a given, and it's not necessarily something sinister, just a roleplaying aide.

    So my party (now level 5, the last level before we become engines of superheroic destruction), finds a relatively quiet out-of-the-way corner of the world to crash in for a few days and collect our bearings after some particularily BAD planning went south. We had a mini quest in the town helping out a gnome stage magician (this was NOT something I set up, the DM dropped it on us as randomly as anything else, I had no prior knowledge about it).
    Then we planned on relaxing for the evening. While the party started a brawl in a bar for entertainment (really.) I headed out for a shopping excursion. Since this was all out-of-character stuff for the other players, it consisted of me and the DM passing notes about what I was hoping to accomplish, while he DMed a random bar fight.
    As a side note, the vestige I had bound gave me a number of random abilities, one of which included being treated as a wizard of my level when it came to using spell trigger items like wands, so I could use em freely same as a 5th level wizard.

    Now, what I did, and the DM approved readily, was find the gnomish stage magician we'd helped earlier, and talk to him about buying some of his stage magic stuff, which the gnome was fine with (he was a real spellcaster who just happened to use it in theatrics instead of adventuring, putting on a 'brilliant' show for entertainment purposes).
    So I came back to my party with
    - A number of wands that did various useless magical tricks
    - A few pints of flammable oil

    The local authorities (with a semi-southern sherrif twang, which was a ncie touch) were berrating my party for causing such a ruckus. He let them go with a slap on the wrist cause he could tell 'they didn't mean no real harm', along with a warning to keep their noses clean until they passed to the next town. My party sheepishly agreed that the fun was over, and we headed to a nearby inn for the night.
    We were going to get seperate rooms, but I suggested we'd probably feel fine with crashing in a room together (we did it in dungeons and the wilderness anyway) and it'd keep our cost down, which in the long run could give us more cash for crucial gear, so my party agreed that we'd just rent a sizeable room and work out some sleeping arrangements there. We roleplayed it, arguing over who was gonna sleep where without letting it get too heated, with people arguing that they weren't sleeping on the floor until the party wizard reminded everyone (me included) that we all have bedrolls and blankets and sleeping gear in our packs, like always. Having a pillow makes sleeping on the floor more bearable, and we let the fighter (swashbuckler, actually) sleep in the bed cause all the extra physical stress was worse on the joints and back ect.

    So the Dm tells us we all fall asleep while I'm handing him a note. The party starts describing waking up, and he gives us the always ominous "Oh no, wait." Which means he's being the devil.
    Or in this case, that I'm being the devil.

    And he starts making them roll listen checks over the swashbucklers snoring, which they fail, and are very freaked out about.

    Especially when they realize, the DM didn't make ME roll a listen check.

    The DM makes them roll a few more, which made me nervous, but none of them passed. They were starting to get nerve wracked, with the rogue actually grabbing his character sheet and yelling "WAKE UP MAN, WAKE UP, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD!" but it was too late. I abandon the notes and say aloud to the dm "I splash the rest of the oil in the swashbucklers face".

    Jaws drop.

    DM: You wake up with a cough and a snort, immediately assaulted by the overpowering smell of violatile, COMBUSTIBLE chemicals.
    Swashbuckler: I shout "What in the hells are you doing?!" loud enough to wake the party.
    DM: Sure, I'll give you that. Everyone stirs, the smell of flammable oil permeating the room.
    Me: I wave my crossbow pistol around and say "No no one move, or this is liable to get very messy very quickly" with a sweet smile.
    DM: Nate roll a spot check (Nate's our wizard, and he passed the check). You notice the bolt loaded into the crossbow pistol is glowing faintly, a dull red tip that, even in your groggy state, realize is probably ripe with magical fire.
    Nate: I say aloud "For the love of god no one move"
    Swashbuckler: Screw that! Roll initiative, I jump out of bed at top speed and attack with my fists!
    DM: Jump out of bed at top speed?
    Swashbuckler: Yeah
    DM: what's your Dex? *rolls a secret dice* take 5 bludgeoning damage from smashing your face into the wall of force over your bed
    Swashbuckler: you've gotta be KIDDING me. Where the hell did THAT come from.
    Me: Out of character (which we just say out loud) The gnome uses moveable walls of force to roll marbles over the tops of the audience
    Swashbuckler: What the hell? what's that mean?
    Me: I'll explain later. Back in character now though. I figured you'd be the one to try something like that. Aren't swashbucklers supposed to be INTELLIGENT?
    Swashbuckler: Fine, back in character, what do you want from us?

    So I went on to explain that I'd gotten some unique magical gear while they were all wasting their time peaking under waitresses skirts and smashing mugs of ale on random passers heads. I tell them that they're all allready under the effect of one of the spells. Which is controlled by me. And that if I decide, they will immediately take 1d2 points of fire damage any round I decide I'm unhappy with them. A weak effect... except that they are all soaked, along with the room, in torch oil.
    I also tell them that, while they get will saves against the second effect, I can try to force any of them to freeze, or pick the direction they run in (which will be away from me, requiring them to close the distance if they want to attack, if they get a chance to).

    Wizard: Ug. God. Allright. What do you want us to do?
    Me: Burn for me.
    Wizard: ...what?
    Me: I activate the fire ability. "BURN FOR ME!!!!!!"
    DM: everyone flip a coin for damage, and then roll 1d6 for fire damage as the entire room flares up like the pits of hell themselves.
    Rogue: Oh *EXPLETIVE* Oh *EXPLETIVE* THIS IS NOT HAPPENING.
    DM: No, it is, you're very much on fire.
    Swashbuckler: I roll off the bed, avoiding the wall of force, and ATTACK.
    Me: Not really.
    Swash: huh?
    DM: Roll a will save.
    Swash: Oh you've gotta be *expletive* kidding me. *rolls and fails, by a wide margin*
    Me: He runs out of the room
    Swash: Runs out of the room screaming "OH GOD I'M ON FIRE"

    The DM goes on to explain that everyone in the inn goes into panic mode as the flames spread out of our room and a group of random people run by FULLY engulfed in flame. Along with making them roll 1d6 for fire damage randomly (about once a round). All while I run behind them, laughing maniacally, making them run in random directions and freezing occasionally, while on fire, screaming "DANCE MY PUPPETS, BURN BURN BURN. BURN AND DANCE! HAHAHAHA"

    Then I cast invisibility on myself and dissapear into the alleyway (we're outside at this point, along with the evacuated inn).

    DM keeps making them roll 1d6s while they dance for me unable to put out the flames, and freezing anytime they try to stop drop and roll or go for something that might help. when the wizard is at about 1/5th of his hitpoint total, the DM gives them this.

    DM: Suddenly, the illusory flames wink out of existance, and you're left standing, panting in terror, under the night sky. In your skivvies.
    Rogue: WHAT?!?!?!
    DM: Good question, I'm sure you'd be wondering what the hell that was about in character too. But there's no time for that, the local authorities show up, and immediately place you all under arrest, dragging your protesting forms into the night, saying he knew you were trouble and that he shoulda locked you up after the barfight.

    Jaws still dropped.

    Me: I watch and wait while everyone tries to figure out what happened, until the crowd starts shuffling nervously back into the inn or leaving as warranted, and sneak back to my room, locking the door and curling up in the bed.

    I slept soundly (though the room did still smell of oil) and got up bright and early to wait by the jailhouse for my party.

    The local lawman and his goons escorted them to the front, and told them he wanted them out of town by nightfall, or they'd spend a lot longer than one night in the pokey.
    I asked them if they slept well, with a huge grin.

    I explained to them that the ILLUSIONIST I'd gotten all my magical gear from assured me that none of it would cause any real damage, but that it still felt "hot enough to make the front row break a sweat when it flares up on stage".
    Swash: I guess I don't really need to ask WHY...
    Me: No. You DON'T. back in character. I lean in to the party and look the rogue dead in the eye, and say in a small, friendly whisper, "don't *expletive* with me." and walk away.

    Jaws are still mostly dropped here. Rubbing forheads and eyes in great annoyance/recovery.

    Me: I shout out "Are we gonna have any more problems? Or do we know who's the baddest dog on the block now?" (I'm a shifter and all).
    Rogue: We'll be good.

    And there was much rejoicing. By me. I've got my eyes peeled for them trying to turn this into something more, but I'm confident I can stay one step ahead of them if they try to. Hopefully they'll realize they had this coming, and that I didn't have to use FAKE fire, and was being very generous to them in how I got my revenge. Afterall, it wasn't FAKE fire that was burning me. Or my clothes at least.

    Good times, good times.

  30. - Top - End - #30
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    Default Re: Backstabbing Compatriots

    That... Was... AWESOME!

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