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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Devil

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    Default a way to negate reflex saves?

    I know that in most cases D&D mechanics don't go very well with physics...and i don't wanna kill too many catgirls so i'll keep this short...
    When you cast a fireball on someone (or near someone for that matter) supposedly it explodes and if you get a good reflex save you get half damage unless you got evasion. This translates in you are very agile and can evade the fires the bolt of lightning that someone cast at you...
    So if you have a circular room 30ft and you cast a fireball from above where exactly can he go to evade the fires? theoretically they move around and "dodge" some or all the fires.what would happen if you have them trapped in a 5 ft wide corridor so only one can come through at a time with no wriggle space..

    D&D mechanics provide that he will get a reflex save but be serious...what the hell happens when a lighting bolt with amazing speed comes at you down a corridor where you barely fit to move what exactly is it that allows you a reflex save?

    So in essence is there a way to prevent someone from getting a reflex save with a clever use of spells combined with space requirements?

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    Yuki Akuma's Avatar

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    Default Re: a way to negate reflex saves?

    Reflex saves represent good timing, fast reflexes and blind luck. It's the "blind luck" part that comes into play when you're unconcious.

    Maybe the air just above you was a much better bridge for the lightning bolt than your body. Perhaps you managed to get knocked out just behind a rather large rock that blocked the explosion of the fireball. Maybe you toss and turn in your nightmare-filled coma in such a way as to completely avoid the cone of cold.

    It's not meant to be realistic.

    And whoever said a fireball completely fills that 20ft. diameter sphere, anyway? Fire doesn't really work that way.
    Last edited by Yuki Akuma; 2007-05-23 at 07:12 PM.
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    Default Re: a way to negate reflex saves?

    I've been getting a lot of mileage out of this FAQ entry recently:

    Quote Originally Posted by FAQ
    Exactly when can a character make a Reflex saving throw? The saving throw section on the Player’s Handbook says Reflex saves depend on a character’s ability to dodge out of the way. Does that mean you can’t make Reflex saves if you can’t move?

    A character can attempt a Reflex save anytime she is subjected to an effect that allows a Reflex save. A Reflex save usually involves some dodging, but a Reflex save does not depend completely on a character’s ability to move around. It also can depend on luck, variations in the effect that makes the save necessary in the first place, and a host of other miraculous factors that keep heroic characters in the D&D game from meeting an untimely fate.

    In most cases, you make Reflex saves normally, no matter how bad your circumstances are, but a few conditions interfere with Reflex saves:
    • If you’ve suffered Dexterity damage or Dexterity drain, you must use your current, lower Dexterity modifier for your Reflex saves.
    • If you’re cowering, you lose your Dexterity bonus (if any). The maximum Dexterity bonus you can have while cowering is +0, and that affects your Reflex saves accordingly.
    • If you’re dead, you become an object. Unattended objects can’t make saving throws.
    • If you’re entangled, your effective Dexterity score drops by –4, and you must use your lower Dexterity modifier for Reflex saves.
    • If you’re exhausted, your effective Strength and Dexterity scores drop by –6, and you must use your lower Dexterity modifier for Reflex saves.
    • If you’re fatigued, your effective Strength and Dexterity scores drop by –2, and you must use your lower Dexterity modifier for Reflex saves.
    • If you’re frightened or panicked, you have a –2 penalty on all saving throws, including Reflex saving throws.
    • If you’re helpless, your Dexterity score is effectively 0. You still can make Reflex saves, but your Dexterity modifier is –5. You’re helpless whenever you are paralyzed, unconscious, or asleep.
    Last edited by Jasdoif; 2007-05-23 at 07:13 PM.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: a way to negate reflex saves?

    Also, Evasion nor improved evasion do not work if a rogue is helpless.

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    Default Re: a way to negate reflex saves?

    The Spellwarp Sniper "turns off" the Reflex save related to AoEs when making them into rays.

    ...which is pretty nifty, when you think about it, particularly with spells like great thunderclap: Fort or be deaf, Will or be stunned, and you're autoprone.

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    Default Re: a way to negate reflex saves?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glyphic View Post
    Also, Evasion nor improved evasion do not work if a rogue is helpless.
    True, but only Helpless with a capital H, as in the condition. Which is when paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, or unconscious. Certain other things might apply too, but I don't think "squeezing through a corridor" would.
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    Default Re: a way to negate reflex saves?

    Alternativly, if you use the reserve feat 'Storm Bolt' it gives you a line with no reflex save.
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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: a way to negate reflex saves?

    You don't fill your whole space; you just need that much room to fight.

    How do you dodge? Well, the lightning bolt doesn't fill the entire 5' wide path; the main bolt is probably quite narrow; if you dodge to the side just before the bolt goes off (they're quite fast compared to reflexes once they start), you take half.

    As for a fireball, the explosion isn't perfectly uniform. There are hotter and colder spots; a successful save means that you were able to turn a narrow, well-defended side to the explosion, and avoid the hotter and more forceful parts.
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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: a way to negate reflex saves?

    The other way to approach this is the meaning of HP. Hit points are, in my experience, open to interpretation. The fighter and the rogue might both be human and the same level, but one has far more HP, why?

    The reason is two fold, true,the fighter is tougher (and probably has a better CON score to reflect this) but the fighter is also better trained. They know how to take a hit and keep fighting (and remeber, that's really what HP measures the damage you can take while staying active/alive). A skinny, 90 lbs weakling dex fighter still might have more HP then a brawling rogue, and it's because their training means they position right, roll with punches, and are calloused in all the right spots.

    The reflex save for the rogue trapped in the fire works the same way. They may well, in the flavor text, come out of that room singed or charred, but they come out without being disabled. If they make their save what they've done is maximized their HP, to the point of losing less or none of it then they should have. They rolled with the fire, closed their eyes at just the right time to avoid having them be damaged, got lucky and had the lightning bolt run through their skin rather than their internal organs, etc... The end effect isn't necessarily that they didn't get hit or effected, just that they didn't lose as much combat ability as the guy next to them.

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    Default Re: a way to negate reflex saves?

    I like Poppatomus' interpretation. A lot of people like the theory that HP don't really represent wounds, but are rather energy that you expend in order to not get hit. Sort of, anyway - it's abstract. But under that model, the fact that the rogue is better at dodging causes him to use up less of his "dodge energy" on a fireball than the fighter does. He half, or no damage at all, while the fighter has to exert himeself more. But the fighter has a lot more "dodge energy" available, usually.
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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: a way to negate reflex saves?

    Quote Originally Posted by SpiderBrigade View Post
    I like Poppatomus' interpretation. A lot of people like the theory that HP don't really represent wounds, but are rather energy that you expend in order to not get hit. Sort of, anyway - it's abstract. But under that model, the fact that the rogue is better at dodging causes him to use up less of his "dodge energy" on a fireball than the fighter does. He half, or no damage at all, while the fighter has to exert himeself more. But the fighter has a lot more "dodge energy" available, usually.
    exactly. there are some instances where that doesn't apply by rule, spells that have no saves, but even in pretty bad scenaros there are ways to get around taking debilitating/closer to death damage even if the character can't avoid cosmetic damage.

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    Default Re: a way to negate reflex saves?

    I think of Mystic Pretzel saves (Fireball in a 5 ft. Corridor) as a matter of controlling the flow of your body, you move with the fireball and avoid being hit by the surge of the blast, which minimizes the danger of the blast.
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    Default Re: a way to negate reflex saves?

    I am one with the fireball...



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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: a way to negate reflex saves?

    So in the end there is no (spoon? coulnd't resist) way to negate a reflex save except through other spells, for example ectoplasmic cocoon or hold person...?

    When i say negate i mean to not "allow" the other to get a reflex save in the case of a spell that would normally allow one...

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    Default Re: a way to negate reflex saves?

    Short of the list of conditions above that affect saves, no. If none of those are possible, then I would look at increasing the DC (Heighten Spell comes to mind or increasing your own casting stat)
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    Default Re: a way to negate reflex saves?

    Anything that offers a reflex save is instrinsically avoidable.
    If something actually is unavoidable, then there is no reflex save. ie: a trap that lowers the ceiling of a room to crush everything inside does not offer a reflex save. When underwater, you can't make a reflex save to get a breath of air.

    Fireballs, lightning bolts, etc, however, do allow reflex saves because they do not fill up entire areas. They are avoidable.


    Quote Originally Posted by kemmotar View Post
    So in the end there is no (spoon? coulnd't resist) way to negate a reflex save except through other spells, for example ectoplasmic cocoon or hold person...?

    When i say negate i mean to not "allow" the other to get a reflex save in the case of a spell that would normally allow one...
    I'm not faimiliar enough with psionics to comment on the cocoon, but hold person does not deny one a reflex save (though it does set their dex to 0 [and dex mod to -5] and deny use of evasion).
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    Default Re: a way to negate reflex saves?

    here's a question, what if a 20ft fireball is shot at a rogue in a 10ft room, how could ya evade that?
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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: a way to negate reflex saves?

    Quote Originally Posted by the_tick_rules View Post
    here's a question, what if a 20ft fireball is shot at a rogue in a 10ft room, how could ya evade that?
    Then he manages to bring his fireproof cloak up over his face, and turns himself away from the explosion's source, escaping with purely superficial burns.

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    Default Re: a way to negate reflex saves?

    Quote Originally Posted by the_tick_rules View Post
    here's a question, what if a 20ft fireball is shot at a rogue in a 10ft room, how could ya evade that?
    By finding the spots within the 10ft. diameter of the fireball that aren't as hot as the rest. Fireballs don't care about the volume of the room they're shot inside.

    A monk or rogue caught in the radius of a Fireball who takes no damage due to Evasion does not actually avoid the fireball. They stay in exactly the same place, no matter what Haley and Miko would have you believe. They just manage to get away with purely superficial burns due to their increased reflexes and luck.
    Last edited by Yuki Akuma; 2007-05-24 at 11:25 AM.
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    Default Re: a way to negate reflex saves?

    Quote Originally Posted by the_tick_rules View Post
    here's a question, what if a 20ft fireball is shot at a rogue in a 10ft room, how could ya evade that?
    He pulls a catgirl out of his bag of holding and uses her as a human/feline shield to absord the force of the blast.

    Obviously :)
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    Default Re: a way to negate reflex saves?

    Quote Originally Posted by h_v View Post
    Then he manages to bring his fireproof cloak up over his face, and turns himself away from the explosion's source, escaping with purely superficial burns.
    assuming they had a fireproof cloak in the first place

    Anyway, what i was looking for was not precisely an explanation on how spells that allow reflex saves actually work. What I'm wondering about is whether there is a way to deny the PCs a reflex save when they got one short of using another spell like hold person, which would make making the save pretty much impossible except for a natural 20.
    Higher DCs, whether by metamagic, abilities or stat bonuses is the same and is always good.
    For example, what is the difference between a sleeping and a dead PC/monster? Why do you get a reflex save when asleep but not when you're dead? (assuming the spellcaster is far enough so you dont get a listen to hear him casting)
    Both are motionless. If then it relies on luck, where the fireball is colder or hotter then why do objects not get a reflex or at least a small possibility, for example 10% to avoid half damage?
    On this note, if you're a maniacal suicidal caster and decide to fireball someone in their sleep when you are 2 inches away from them, why would you or the sleeping one get a reflex? The fireball comes out of your open palm and hits the PC's face who is sleeping 2 inches away from your palm (again that is assuming hearing the spellcaster did not wake him or the caster had it silenced).
    Logic provides that it would be literally impossible to do anything in that case...but then again in D&D rules would you get a reflex? There is not hotter or colder when the fireball literally explodes on your face (would you get coup de grace damage btw?)
    You might think by now, if you're going through all that trouble just scorching ray the sucka in the face...That's what i'm thinking too but is it possible to prevent a PC from getting a reflex save in that way? or for example when you get a slab of iron, perfectly smooth that falls on an equally smooth surface on which the PCs are standing. Normally you would get a reflex to move out of from underneath the slab. If however the slab is bigger than you could even run in one round (x4 and all) what exactly would happen? There is nothing to be lucky or quick about. It would be just plain impossible to survive unless the barbarian succeeds in sundering the falling slab( )

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    Default Re: a way to negate reflex saves?

    Quote Originally Posted by kemmotar View Post
    assuming they had a fireproof cloak in the first place

    Anyway, what i was looking for was not precisely an explanation on how spells that allow reflex saves actually work. What I'm wondering about is whether there is a way to deny the PCs a reflex save when they got one short of using another spell like hold person, which would make making the save pretty much impossible except for a natural 20.
    A -5 penalty to saves isn't really that bad, you know.

    For example, what is the difference between a sleeping and a dead PC/monster? Why do you get a reflex save when asleep but not when you're dead? (assuming the spellcaster is far enough so you dont get a listen to hear him casting)
    A sleeping creature is a creature. A dead creature is an object. Objects don't get lucky, unless they happen to be magical at the time.

    On this note, if you're a maniacal suicidal caster and decide to fireball someone in their sleep when you are 2 inches away from them, why would you or the sleeping one get a reflex?
    Yes.

    The fireball comes out of your open palm and hits the PC's face who is sleeping 2 inches away from your palm (again that is assuming hearing the spellcaster did not wake him or the caster had it silenced).
    Logic provides that it would be literally impossible to do anything in that case...but then again in D&D rules would you get a reflex? There is not hotter or colder when the fireball literally explodes on your face
    Who says? It's a magical explosion of magical fire, not a bomb. Who says it has to start at the tiny little bead? The chaotic fluctuations of magic could cause it to completely miss both of you.

    (would you get coup de grace damage btw?)
    Fireball is not a weaponlike spell, so no.

    or for example when you get a slab of iron, perfectly smooth that falls on an equally smooth surface on which the PCs are standing. Normally you would get a reflex to move out of from underneath the slab. If however the slab is bigger than you could even run in one round (x4 and all) what exactly would happen? There is nothing to be lucky or quick about. It would be just plain impossible to survive unless the barbarian succeeds in sundering the falling slab( )
    You get squished if that happens.


    And no, there isn't any way to completely deny anyone their reflex save. Ever. You can't deny saving throws (unless you somehow turn it into a weaponlike spell that requires an attack roll).
    Last edited by Yuki Akuma; 2007-05-24 at 01:02 PM.
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