2-weap and flurry

[Cowboy_ninja]

so yea just like the title says this is my theory on monks with two weapon fighting feats.

assuming a monk uses monk weapons (say daggers) a monk could get 3 attacks at a -4 at first lvl

as he progresses to lvl 11, where flurry penalties disappear, he a gets improved two weapon fighting and greater flurry with a BAB of 8/3 he'd get:

6/6/6/6/1/1

now from what i can interpret from the PHB a monk can do this with his fists. unarmed strikes are considered a light weapon according to the info on 2-weapon fighting and improved unarmed strike means your armed with your fists which by definition means you have a weapon (or ARE a weapon)

now it does say there is no such thing as an off hand attack for a monk but that just means he always hads his strength to his dmg.

am i right?

[Arbitrarity]

But if you don't have an off-hand, you can't make off hand attacks.

[Fax Celestis]

But if you don't have an off-hand, you can't make off hand attacks.

O Great FAQ, what say you in this, this most trying time and commonly asked question?

Can a monk fight with two weapons? Can she combine
a two-weapon attack with a flurry of blows? What are her
penalties on attack rolls?
A monk can fight with two weapons just like any other
character, but she must accept the normal penalties on her
attack rolls to do so. She can use an unarmed strike as an offhand
weapon. She can even combine two-weapon fighting with
a flurry of blows to gain an extra attack with her off hand (but
remember that she can use only unarmed strikes or special
monk weapons as part of the flurry). The penalties for twoweapon
fighting stack with the penalties for flurry of blows.
For example, at 6th level, the monk Ember can normally
make one attack per round at a +4 bonus. When using flurry of
blows, she can make two attacks (using unarmed strikes or any
special monk weapons she holds), each at a +3 bonus. If she
wants to make an extra attack with her off hand, she has to
accept a –4 penalty on her primary hand attacks and a –8
penalty on her off-hand attacks (assuming she wields a light
weapon in her off hand).
If Ember has Two-Weapon Fighting, she has to accept only
a –2 penalty on all attacks to make an extra attack with her off
hand. Thus, when wielding a light weapon in her off hand
during a flurry of blows, she can make a total of three attacks,
each at a total bonus of +1. At least one of these attacks has to
be with her off-hand weapon.
A 20th-level monk with Greater Two-Weapon Fighting can
make eight attacks per round during a flurry of blows.
Assuming she wields a light weapon in her off hand, her three
off-hand weapon attacks are at +13/+8/+3, and she has five
attacks (at +13/+13/+13/+8/+3) with unarmed strikes or any
weapons she carries in her primary hand. If the same monk also
has Rapid Shot and throws at least one shuriken as part of her
flurry of blows (since Rapid Shot can be used only with ranged
attacks), she can throw one additional shuriken with her
primary hand, but all of her attacks (even melee attacks) suffer
a –2 penalty. Thus, her full attack array looks like this:
+11/+11/+11/+11/+6/+1 primary hand (two must be with
shuriken) and +11/+6/+1 off hand.

Thank you, O Great and Glorious FAQ.

[ocato]

Yes, it is worth noting that your hands are light weapons.

[Zincorium]

Yes, it is worth noting that your hands are light weapons.

...Which also let you use power attack. Natural weapons (regular ones) work the same way. Pretty nifty, I've use the weapon finesse/power attack combo before and it works well.

[Closet_Skeleton]

You have to use a weapon to do so. You can't use you unarmed strike as your off hand weapon and your onhand weapon but you can use a single weapon along with your unarmed strike.

[rawling]

Yeah, seems a little odd, but that's definitely the way it's worded

[Arbitrarity]

I was arguing semantics. I've seen that quote before

Really.

[Matthew]

You have to use a weapon to do so. You can't use you unarmed strike as your off hand weapon and your onhand weapon but you can use a single weapon along with your unarmed strike.

Where does it say that? The FAQ seems clear as far as I can see, a Monk can use Flurry and Two Weapon Fighting in combination with Unarmed Strikes no problem. The only drawback is that the Off Hand Unarmed Strike gets the 0.5 Strength Damage Bonus Multiplier.

[Person_Man]

Monks can in fact use TWF with Flurry. They can do so unarmed (which is usually their best option) or with any special Monk weapon. (I've always thought they were special because they went to PC school on the short bus, but maybe that's just me).

However, mathematically speaking, its usually not a good idea to do so.

[JaronK]

The line about no TWF while flurrying is meant to say that no part of the flurry counts as being an off hand attack.

And yes, monks can miss with a ton of attacks!

Or, a less snarky version: yes, monks can make lots and lots of attacks. No, it's not as powerful as it looks.

JaronK

[Fax Celestis]

The line about no TWF while flurrying is meant to say that no part of the flurry counts as being an off hand attack.

And yes, monks can miss with a ton of attacks!

Or, a less snarky version: yes, monks can make lots and lots of attacks. No, it's not as powerful as it looks.

JaronK

King of Smack can make a lot of attacks too...still not impressive.

The only time many many attacks are really good is when you're doing it with natural attacks.

[JaronK]

The only time many many attacks are really good is when you're doing it with natural attacks.

I disagree. Barbarian 5 (Pounce Varient)/Revenant Blade 5/Frenzied Berserker 10. With Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Greater Two Weapon Fighting, Shock Trooper, and Leap Attack, this guy has 7 attacks on the charge, all doing +120 damage. Yehaw. Shame I can't fit a level of Exotic Weapon Master in there for Exotic Flurry.

Also, Scout 7/Swashbuckler 3/Dervish 10. 7 attacks normally, 14 once per day during the attack, all with int to damage and an additional +5 to damage from the dance. Not too shabby.

And should we mention the Warblade with Time Stands Still?

JaronK

[Indon]

Monks can in fact use TWF with Flurry. They can do so unarmed (which is usually their best option) or with any special Monk weapon. (I've always thought they were special because they went to PC school on the short bus, but maybe that's just me).

However, mathematically speaking, its usually not a good idea to do so.

Hey, shruiken aren't all that bad!

[AtomicKitKat]

The FAQ is being needlessly complicated about it.

Summary: "No off-hand" for Monks simply refers to "Should hand get 1/2 Str mod to damage or suffer from off-hand penalties?" This does not apply completely to TWF. For TWF, Monk attacks count as off-hand when determining AB penalties(like if you lack TWF feat). Monk attacks always receive 1*Str mod to damage.

[Person_Man]

Hey, shruiken aren't all that bad!

Unless you're a Master Thrower (Trip touch attacks) and/or Disciple of the Eye (Save vs. Fear every time they ROLL to attack), then yes, they are. Thrown weapons are inherently inferior to using a bow, because a you can use a magic bow firing magic arrows, and get the benefits of both (though the enhancement bonuses do not stack, they overlap). So my +1 Composite Flaming Longbow firing +1 Shock Arrows attacks hit you with +1 Flaming Shock attacks.

But when you throw something, the only magical property is on your thrown weapon. So when making ranged attacks, the rules clearly favor using a bow, unless you have some specific throwing combo.

[Matthew]

The FAQ is being needlessly complicated about it.

Summary: "No off-hand" for Monks simply refers to "Should hand get 1/2 Str mod to damage or suffer from off-hand penalties?" This does not apply completely to TWF. For TWF, Monk attacks count as off-hand when determining AB penalties(like if you lack TWF feat). Monk attacks always receive 1*Str mod to damage.

No, no. They only have no Off Hand with regards to the flurry:

Dungeons & Dragons FAQ (April, 2007), p. 17.

The description of the flurry of blows ability says
there’s no such thing as a monk attacking with an off-hand
weapon during a flurry of blows. What does that mean,
exactly? Can the monk make off-hand attacks in addition to
flurry attacks?
Actually, the text to which you refer appears in the entry
for unarmed strikes. When a monk uses her unarmed strike
ability, she does not suffer any penalty for an off-hand attack,
even when she has her hands full and attacks with her knees
and elbows, using the flurry of blows ability to make extra
attacks, or both.
The rules don’t come right out and say that a monk can’t
use an unarmed strike for an off-hand strike (although the exact
wording of the unarmed strike ability suggests otherwise), and
no compelling reason why a monk could not do so exists.
When using an unarmed strike as an off-hand attack, the monk
suffers all the usual attack penalties from two-weapon fighting
(see Table 8–10 in the Player’s Handbook) and the monk adds
only half her Strength bonus (if any) to damage if the off-hand
unarmed strike hits.
To add an off-hand attack to a flurry of blows, stack
whatever two-weapon penalty the monk has with the penalty (if
any) from the flurry. Attacks from the flurry have the monk’s
full damage bonus from Strength, but the off-hand attack gains
only half Strength bonus to damage. If the off-hand attack is a
weapon, that weapon isn’t available for use in the flurry (if it
can be used in a flurry at all, see the previous question). For
example, a 4th-level monk with the Two-Weapon Fighting feat
and a Strength score of 14 decides to use a flurry of blows and
decides to throw in an off-hand attack as well. The monk has a
base attack bonus of +3 and a +2 Strength bonus. With a flurry,
the character can make two attacks, each at +3 (base +3, –2
flurry, +2 Strength). An unarmed strike is a light weapon, so
the monk suffers an additional –2 penalty for both the flurry
and the off-hand attack, and the monk makes three attacks,
each at an attack bonus of +1. The two attacks from the flurry
are primary attacks and add the monk’s full Strength bonus to
damage of +2. The single off-hand attack adds half the monk’s
Strength bonus to damage (+1).
If the monk in our example has two sais to use with the
flurry, plus the off-hand attack, she can use both in the flurry
(in which case she must make the off-hand attack with an
unarmed strike) or one sai for the off-hand attack and one with
the flurry. The sai used in the off-hand attack is not available
for the flurry and vice versa.

It's all to do with the changing role of Off Hand and Flurry over the course of Game Development. Now that 'Off Hand' is no longer designated as 'Left' (or whatever) and Flurry stacks with Two Weapon Fighting, certain inconsistancies had to be ironed out. This was one of them...

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

However, mathematically speaking, its usually not a good idea to do so.

I did a little CORE number crunching on Weapon Focus, Improved Critical, TWF, ITWF with respect to the monk.

For this little experiment I will use a 12th level Monk with 18 STR.
BAB +9
Flurry +9/+9/+9/+4
Improved Natural Attack
Damage 3d6 +4

I looked through MM to find AC for all CR 11-13 creatures to get some idea about what the Monk could be expected to hit.
They were in the range 18-32, with an average close to 25 (25.206).
In the following we will use AC 25 as a base of comparison and ignoring issues such as DR.

All damage in the following is expected or average damage based on the assumptions given here.

Single Attack vs. AC 25 opponent:

No Weapon Focus (WF) or Improved Critical (IC):
Avg. Dmg. = 6. 85

WF:
Avg. Dmg. = 7. 61

IC:
Avg. Dmg. = 7.18

WF & IC:
Avg. Dmg. = 7.98

Flurry+TWF+ITWF vs. AC 25 opponent:

Flurry without WF or IC:
Avg. Dmg. = 23.60

Flurry with TWF:
Avg. Dmg. = 22.10

Flurry with WF:
Avg. Dmg. = 26.64

Flurry with IC:
Avg. Dmg. = 24.72

Flurry with WF & IC:
Avg. Dmg. = 27.93

Flurry with ITWF:
Avg. Dmg. = 23.42

Flurry with TWF & WF:
Avg. Dmg. = 25.80

Flurry with TWF & IC:
Avg. Dmg. = 23.16

Flurry with ITWF & WF:
Avg. Dmg. = 27.73

Flurry with ITWF & IC:
Avg. Dmg. = 24.53

Flurry with TWF & WF & IC:
Avg. Dmg. = 27.03

Flurry with ITWF & WF & IC:
Avg. Dmg. = 29.10


Let us rank these:

1. Flurry with ITWF & WF & IC (29.10) - 4 Feats
2. Flurry with WF & IC (27.93) - 2 Feats
3. Flurry with ITWF & WF (27.73) - 3 Feats
4. Flurry with TWF & WF & IC (27.03) - 3 Feats
5. Flurry with WF (26.64) - 1 Feats
6. Flurry with TWF & WF (25.80) - 2 Feats
7. Flurry with IC (24.72) - 1 Feats
8. Flurry with ITWF & IC (24.53) - 3 Feats
9. Flurry without WF or IC (23.60) - 0 Feats
10. Flurry with ITWF (23.42) - 2 Feats
11. Flurry with TWF & IC (23.16) - 2 Feats
12. Flurry with TWF (22.10) - 1 Feats

The differences are small, but given our assumptions the choices are obvious.
However, against lower AC TWF and ITWF will start hitting a lot more and outshine WF+IC and against an AC that can only be hit with a natural 20, TWF and ITWF will also be better.
Therefore we will look at the AC range for when you should have WF instead of TWF and ITWF.

The calculations are long, but fairly simple, so I will only provide the conclusion (which should be taken with a grain of salt):

WF+IC > ITWF for AC[22;33]
WF+IC > ITWF+WF for AC[25;33]

WF > ITWF for AC[23;33]
WF > ITWF+WF for AC[26;33]

Note: 6 out of 34 monsters in the CR 11-13 range had an AC < 23

The optimal choice depends highly on the type of campaign (as always), what you want from the monk, the number of feats you have to spend and your abilities, but if you want to do a little damage in combat against creatures with a somewhat decent AC you should take Weapon Focus.
If you have the DEX you should take TWF and ITWF so you can deal more damage to low AC creatures.
There is no reason to take Improved Critical unless you are only up against high AC opponents and/or have feats to spare

[Matthew]

Silvanos, you might consider using that Whirling Steel Eberron Feat to get the Monk Two Weapon Fighting / Flurry of Blows with a pair of Long Swords or even Flurrying a Long Sword in two hands...

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

There are many ways to improve damage output and flexibility, even for a monk, but I just wanted to show some of the math Person_Man was talking about.

I did restrict it to CORE only, because that provides a nice baseline when comparing and everybody knows what we are talking about.

[Matthew]

Ah well, in that case, the humble Quarter Staff is your friend, especially when used in Two Hands via Flurry of Blows and Power Attack. These suggestions are intended to avoid the enchant a Gauntlet debate, mind... (i.e 3D6 versus 1D6+X)

[Indon]

Unless you're a Master Thrower (Trip touch attacks) and/or Disciple of the Eye (Save vs. Fear every time they ROLL to attack), then yes, they are. Thrown weapons are inherently inferior to using a bow, because a you can use a magic bow firing magic arrows, and get the benefits of both (though the enhancement bonuses do not stack, they overlap). So my +1 Composite Flaming Longbow firing +1 Shock Arrows attacks hit you with +1 Flaming Shock attacks.

But when you throw something, the only magical property is on your thrown weapon. So when making ranged attacks, the rules clearly favor using a bow, unless you have some specific throwing combo.

You can TWF throwing weapons, so you could do significantly more with, say, +1 Wounding Shruiken than you could with a +3 Longbow with +1 Wounding arrows. (Edit: Sadly, I'm pretty sure Shruiken break, so you can't get them enchanted with returning, which would just plain make them ridiculous :( )

You also get strength added to damage for any throwing weapon, as opposed to only composite bows which are geared towards a specific strength level (so you don't benefit for any higher, and any lower and you take an extra penalty).