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2007-05-24, 04:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2006
Psionics+ToB+ToM = A balanced game?
So I'm planning on DMing a game in the near future. After enough time seeing how overpowered the PHB magic system is, I've become sick of it. I'd like to take this game to higher levels, but without the horrible caster/other disparity normally found there. I'm really annoyed with the inbalance inherent in the system.
So I'm not using the normal arcane/divine magic system. Psionics will be the main replacement. Melee classes will get Tome of Battle as an option with the normal Complete series choices. And I'm also looking at adding Tome of Magic classes so that the caster options aren't so limited. So I have two main questions here.
Will psionics and ToB give a balance between the casters and meleers?
What parts of ToM are balanced with psionics/ToB? Binders look quite balanced and fun, but I'm not sure about Truenamers or Shadowmancers, (especially Shadowmancers, who look like they have some overpowered spells).Last edited by ClericofPhwarrr; 2007-05-24 at 04:18 PM.
Veryn's Sliver, by Talfrey:Spoiler
Avatar by Abardam.
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2007-05-24, 04:24 PM (ISO 8601)
Re: Psionics+ToB+ToM = A balanced game?
The general consensus, so far as I've seen regarding the Shadowcasters, is that mysteries are largely inferior to PHB spells; the number of powerful, breakable options is greatly reduced and a caster has fewer attempts at each per day. Truenamers are generally regarded as weaker than wizards and their ilk, unless the DM allows for some truly cheesey combos to pump Truespeaking into the stratosphere. Barring such things, they're largely seen as the peer of the warlock.
I'd love to see a psionics/martial adept/binder/truespeaker campaign; I'm largely indifferent about the Shadowcaster.
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2007-05-24, 04:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2006
Re: Psionics+ToB+ToM = A balanced game?
Don't worry about Shadowmancers; they do have a few good spells, but their extremely limited use and selection will balance this out a lot. In fact, the shadowcasters will likely be overshadowed by the other classes. They're still a lot of fun, though.
Which mysteries were you worried about?
Psionics and Tome of Battle are probably pretty balanced. Binders fit well into the curve there, too. Truenamers... need a good reworking, because as it is they're usually fairly bad and occasionally overpowered.Avatar by GryffonDurime. Thanks!
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2007-05-24, 04:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2006
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Re: Psionics+ToB+ToM = A balanced game?
Yes. Absolutely yes. I would also recommend allowing Magic of Incarnum (no, not a caster book) to give options to those who don't like ToB.
What parts of ToM are balanced with psionics/ToB? Binders look quite balanced and fun, but I'm not sure about Truenamers or Shadowmancers, (especially Shadowmancers, who look like they have some overpowered spells).
Truenamers also seem strong, until you realize how incredibly ridiculous the casting DCs can get. (15 + 2*CR) is incredibly difficult to hit at higher levels without serious twinkage. I personally houserule (15 + 3*Utterance Level) for the cast DC, altering the skill itself to not allow bonuses from outside sources (except for ability modifiers).
Also, I hope you realize that you're going to have a very gritty world without any curative magic (besides the Truenamer's powers and some self-only psionic powers). I would recommend providing a feat that gives the Paladin's Lay on Hands (or better, the Dragon Shaman's Touch of Vitality), probably doing Class Level * Cha mod or Wis mod.Last edited by Fax Celestis; 2007-05-24 at 04:29 PM.
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d20r Compilation PDF - last updated 9.11.14
d20r: Spells (I-L) - d20r: Spells (H) - d20r: Spells (G) - d20r: Spells (F) - d20r: Spells (E) - d20r: Spells (D) - d20r: Wizard class
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2007-05-24, 04:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2007
Re: Psionics+ToB+ToM = A balanced game?
Psionics and Tome of Battle are very well-balanced against each other (splashing a little psionics onto your Tome of Battle character is, however, delicious), and the Binder can compete if built well but will lag behind if made poorly. Shadowcasters are.. well, I have have seen one played, but the word on the internet street is that they're on the weak side, but they are spellcasteresque; I have seen a number of suggested "fixes", including by the author of that section of the Tome of Magic, largely revolving around making them more useful at low levels.
Truenamers are not particularily playable.
Tome of Battle is also on the same level as specialized or secondary spellcasters--the Dread Necromancer, the Beguiler, the Favored Soul, the Spirit Shaman, the Shugenja, and so on, so you would be fairly safe including them.
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2007-05-24, 04:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2007
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- Oregon, USA
Re: Psionics+ToB+ToM = A balanced game?
Empathic transfer followed by those self-only psionic powers is also an option.
Last edited by Jasdoif; 2007-05-24 at 04:31 PM.
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2007-05-24, 04:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2005
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Re: Psionics+ToB+ToM = A balanced game?
"that nighted, penguin-fringed abyss" - At The Mountains of Madness, H.P. Lovecraft
When a man decides another's future behind his back, it is a conspiracy. When a god does it, it's destiny.
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2007-05-24, 04:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2006
Re: Psionics+ToB+ToM = A balanced game?
Glad to hear this would work. Some notes:
I understand Incarnum is pretty balanced, but I don't enjoy using it.
A gritty world is more what I'm looking for. Though there's a surprising amount of healing available: Crusader during battle, Truenamer after, psionic self-healing/empathic transfer, and Ardents. I'd also allow CW-style pallys and rangers (though why people would take them over Crusader/Swordsage I don't know). In fact, restricting the Truenamer so that everyone couldn't be healed for free after every confrontation might be in order.
And GryffonDurime, I'll give you a pm when the recruitment thread is up, though I have no clue when that'll be.Veryn's Sliver, by Talfrey:Spoiler
Avatar by Abardam.
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2007-05-24, 04:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2006
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Re: Psionics+ToB+ToM = A balanced game?
Wiki - Q&A - FB - LIn - Tw
d20r Compilation PDF - last updated 9.11.14
d20r: Spells (I-L) - d20r: Spells (H) - d20r: Spells (G) - d20r: Spells (F) - d20r: Spells (E) - d20r: Spells (D) - d20r: Wizard class
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2007-05-24, 04:57 PM (ISO 8601)
Re: Psionics+ToB+ToM = A balanced game?
Meaning that the Truenamer will quickly reach a point where the check becomes absolutely impossible to make.
Hmm...what effect will this have on your proposed world's economy of mystic goods, then? When you throw out Arcane and Divine magic, you have to ask yourself what types of items and equipment need conversion to psionic or the like, what simply gets thrown out, and what's simply a question of a change in name. Because, for example, I don't believe there are (by RAW) any psionic items that confer stat bonuses...which could add greatly to the feel of your world, but could also prove irksome.
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2007-05-24, 05:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2006
Re: Psionics+ToB+ToM = A balanced game?
Missed that. That does tend to fix things.
Originally Posted by GryffonDurimeLast edited by ClericofPhwarrr; 2007-05-24 at 08:08 PM.
Veryn's Sliver, by Talfrey:Spoiler
Avatar by Abardam.
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2007-05-24, 05:14 PM (ISO 8601)
Re: Psionics+ToB+ToM = A balanced game?
Hmm...to that end, what about the Psionic Artificer? A simple enough variant, but helps to explain where all the hoozits and whatzits come from.
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2007-05-24, 05:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2006
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2007-05-24, 05:23 PM (ISO 8601)
Re: Psionics+ToB+ToM = A balanced game?
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2007-05-24, 06:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2005
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- Charlotte, NC
Re: Psionics+ToB+ToM = A balanced game?
Somehow I think if the plan is to make a more balanced game...putting artificers in there might be a bad idea.
On the other hand, they might not be as powerful without wizards and clerics around to imitate. I guess it depends on what you let them do."'To know, to do, and to keep silent.' Crowley had the first two down pat."
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2007-05-24, 06:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2005
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- Earth
Re: Psionics+ToB+ToM = A balanced game?
You could just say that most of the arcane and divine full casters traveled to the outlands thousands of years ago for (Insert high level plot point here) and they can't come back to the material plane for more than a day per level at a time (they have to stay back in the outlands for an equal amount of time).
There. You now have all the magic items you could ever want in the game, you have a very valid reason for no full casters on the material plane (no one to teach the wizards, sorcerers don't exist/have been weeded out of the bloodline/are the ancestors of the other casting types and have evolved, and the gods are blocked from giving clerics power on the material plane (perhaps it deals with that plot point).
You can use wizards and other full casters as NPC's and BBEG's in the end game fairly easily (they may not be present in body often but they have a large hand in material plane stuff) as well.
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2007-05-24, 06:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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2007-05-24, 06:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2005
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- Charlotte, NC
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2007-05-24, 06:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2005
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- Earth
Re: Psionics+ToB+ToM = A balanced game?
It's been free for say 10,000 years. Pretty much completely free.
Most people wouldn't even know that wizards had ever existed. Perhaps they are permanently blocked from getting to the material plane (epic spell that shields the world from that stuff wouldn't be to hard to make).
so psions can plane shift to sigl and pick up magic items but the mages can't get to the prime material. People with their level of magic are blocked from the world.
To compensate for the loss of magic the races evolved psionics over a hundred thousand years or so, and to combat this the previously magical races (such as dragons) evolved as well.
Play completely without transparency and it could be very fun.
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2007-05-24, 06:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2005
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Re: Psionics+ToB+ToM = A balanced game?
An easy way to get magic items in is to allow Warlocks. They're balanced with the rest, and can create any magic item.
I'm actually working out a campaign where the only magic users are Binders and Warlocks, though I dropped Buer to a 1st level vestige and let Warlocks heal with eldritch blasts, healing 1d3 points of damage for every 1d6 damage they would normally be able to do.
JaronK
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2007-05-24, 06:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2007
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- Cleveland, OH
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Re: Psionics+ToB+ToM = A balanced game?
Im currently running a non-magic, psionics only game and everything seems to be running smoothly. I made up a base class version of the sangehirn presented in the Mind's Eye articles for healing and have psionic artificers for saturating the world with psionic items.
As for the power of the psionic artificer, it appears to me atleast so far that without Perisist and other metamagic feats available in psionic varieties that they are deffinately less powerful than they're magic using kin.
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2007-05-24, 06:45 PM (ISO 8601)
Re: Psionics+ToB+ToM = A balanced game?
See, now, in this respect it's really more a flavor choice than a mechanics choice, but the prospect of a world that has never had arcane or divine magic just seems to be the most interesting prospect to me, at least.
Inviting Sigil into the mix in homebrew settings is generally just asking for the degregation of any sense of wonder you've built up about your own world. And like I said, in most cases the conversion of Wondrous to Universal item is a matter of name and flavor: oh, this Headband of Intellect? It's now a third eye of mental awakening.
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2007-05-24, 06:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2005
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- Earth
Re: Psionics+ToB+ToM = A balanced game?
I forgot about that ability of the warlock. That solves the magic item issues.
As for Sigil, just make it any epic, extraplanar, city of your choice.
In my next game I have all the outer realms and extraplanar stuff (yes even Sigil) but it won't affect anything.
The Material plane is made up of a universe as large as ours in real life. The empire takes up only about a hundred thousand star systems worth of that space. Various other entities control another couple million star systems. The rest is unknown space. The gods don't interfere in affairs in the empire for one simple reason, fear. They grant magic to clerics and work to win converts but they don't intervene.
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2007-05-24, 08:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2006
Re: Psionics+ToB+ToM = A balanced game?
Ah yes, Warlocks. They might end up being the only arcane casters allowed in (along with bards, whom I'm thinking about adjusting for this; Naming Magic seems similar enough flavor-wise to bardic music for bards to get some access to it. Alternatively, the Thoughtsinger seems fairly balanced; anyone care to give their thoughts on it?).
Then again, changing the flavor of magic items might be more rewarding in the long-term. As for allowing Sigil, as handy as it can be to some campaigns, I doubt I'll be using it in any games I run for quite some time.
Thanks for all the ideas and suggestions so far.Last edited by ClericofPhwarrr; 2007-05-24 at 08:56 PM.
Veryn's Sliver, by Talfrey:Spoiler
Avatar by Abardam.
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2007-05-24, 10:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2006
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Re: Psionics+ToB+ToM = A balanced game?
I don't have a lot of personal experience with Psionics, but from what I have read, this seems like it would work out to be pretty well-balanced.
Though, I will say it seems sort of odd for warlocks to be creating magic items. They can create them as if they knew the spell with a UMD check, right? But if those spells don't exist in the first place, because there are no arcane casters (unless you go with Tippy's idea), then what exactly are you emulating?
I guess you can change around the flavor to be less mimicry and more "imbue with personal power," but as written, the flavor seems kind of odd.
Either way, I'm also very interested in this game. ^^ Would you mind telling us when the recruitment thread goes up?
Spoiler
Sornas by Lord Iames Osari, Thanks! ^_^
SpoilerMy mind is a swirling miasma of scintillating thoughts and turgid ideas.Luke, I Am Your Tedious, Overused Plot Device!
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2007-05-24, 10:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2005
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- Earth
Re: Psionics+ToB+ToM = A balanced game?
Yeah, I am interested as well.
How do you feel about 20,000 year old Elan psions running around?
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2007-05-24, 10:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2006
Re: Psionics+ToB+ToM = A balanced game?
Originally Posted by Sornas
Originally Posted by Emperor Tippy
Note for those interested: until I figure everything out, the only stuff I've decided on is a homebrew world, heavy RP, starting at levels 1-3, and the previous stuff mentioned. (Besides, if I say any more, this thread will be in the wrong forum.)Veryn's Sliver, by Talfrey:Spoiler
Avatar by Abardam.
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2007-05-24, 11:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2005
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- Eberron
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Re: Psionics+ToB+ToM = A balanced game?
You can add another person to your list
Not sure what I'd be, but I've got some ideas.Man this thing was full of outdated stuff.
Swoop Falcon
I make(made?) avatars! Last updated 12-23-2008. Requests not unwelcome. Last request 01-12-2010.
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2007-05-24, 11:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2005
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- Earth
Re: Psionics+ToB+ToM = A balanced game?
Yeah, I'm thinking Psion.
How do you feel about 32 point buy or higher?
It's fairly easy to add points, but its a pain to take them away.
I would much prefer level 3 to level 1 (how do you explain a 20,000 year old Psion who is level 1? and level 1 is boring).
How do you feel about adding plot points to your backround?
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2007-05-24, 11:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2005
Re: Psionics+ToB+ToM = A balanced game?
This makes sense, and sounds balanced from how you've described it. Great job.[/back on topic]