Special attack Monk

[Vazzaroth]

I want to make a build centered around Grapples, Disarms, and Trips for a monk. Aside from the obvious like the Improved's, are there any ther feats or rules I might want to consider? I'm already probably going to use the Denying Stance style from Unearthed Arcana.

Stats? It seems like I might need rather high stats in the majority of my abilitys. Should I "tank" Cha to, like, 6 or 7?

Reaping Mauler Prestige Class looks somewhat interesting too, mabye.

Edit: This question has recently plagued me:
If I disarm while unarmed myself, the rules say I now hold the weapon. Can I throw it away from my enemy as anything but a standard action? I assumed it would be previously, becuase it's a standard to throw one at a person, but then I thought about it. Lining up a shot and attack should be quite diffrent than, say, tossing a longsword over your shoulder to get it out of reach of your enemy. A free action? Move? Is this going to just have to be ruled by my DM?

Thanks for any help.

[Jasdoif]

Edit: This question has recently plagued me:
If I disarm while unarmed myself, the rules say I now hold the weapon. Can I throw it away from my enemy as anything but a standard action? I assumed it would be previously, becuase it's a standard to throw one at a person, but then I thought about it. Lining up a shot and attack should be quite diffrent than, say, tossing a longsword over your shoulder to get it out of reach of your enemy. A free action? Move? Is this going to just have to be ruled by my DM?

Dropping an item into your square, or into an adjacent square, is a free action.

[TheOOB]

The reaping mauler class is rather ho-hum, the saving throw DC on their abilities never get high enough to work well.

As for disarming, it's a free action to drop a help item, but just like throwing a throwing weapon, it would be a standard action to throw the weapon any real distance. A better question is why throw it? You are perfectally capable of making unarmed attacks with both hands occupied(using kicks, elbows, headbutts and the like), so why not keep in your hand. Unless they are also good at unarmed disarms, they arn't likely to get it back.

[Vazzaroth]

Good point. I could just hold onto it, unless they keep pulling out daggers or something, in which case I could just drop it in the square behind me, with any luck, they will go for it, and I get an AoO.

Looking at disarm rules, I can't find an answer to this one, but I think I've got it right: They can't disarm you if your unarmed... right? That would be a rather messy sunder attempt otherwise...

[TheOOB]

Disarm only works agienst held items. If you arn't holding an item, there is nothing you can disarm.

Can't sunder unarmed attacks either, D&D is a family friendly game here.

Also, don't quote me, but I think the act of picking up an item off the ground provokes an AoO, so you'll get an AoO reguardless.

[Jasdoif]

Also, don't quote me, but I think the act of picking up an item off the ground provokes an AoO, so you'll get an AoO reguardless.

Yes, picking up an item is a move action that provokes attacks of opportunity.

The tables in the combat section are useful for determining action types for general activities, and whether they provoke AoOs or not.

[TheOOB]

Then you just use that AoO to trip the enemy and your in buissness.

[Vazzaroth]

He quoted you...

Anyway, Yes, I would get an AoO for them picking it up, but I could get multiple AoOs when they go by me to get to it, then pick it up. Even better, they might foolishly try to use some unarmed attacks on me, and I can oibviously beat them at that unless they too are a monk or something similar. Finally, if they withdraw, I still have them, becuse the monk gets speed bonuses.

Of course I'm not saying it's perfect, nothing is, but I think this will end up pretty good. I'm just sad that I won't get getting Improved Disarm until 6th, and that I will always be doing it with a light weapon, although the feat's +4 blaances that out.

[Sengir]

I'm just sad that I won't get getting Improved Disarm until 6th, and that I will always be doing it with a light weapon, although the feat's +4 blaances that out.

A monk can use a quarterstaff, which is a two-handed weapon, giving you an additional +4 IIRC

[the_tick_rules]

improved natural attack from MM and superior unarmed strike from nine swords for tons of damage. earth's embrace, does and extra d12 damage when you maintain a pin.

[Vazzaroth]

A monk can use a quarterstaff, which is a two-handed weapon, giving you an additional +4 IIRC

But then I don't get the weapon in my hands when I disarm, which was most of the point of having a monk disarm people.

[Human Paragon 3]

Why do you want the weapon in your hands? At the start of the thread you wanted to throw it away. It'd probably be worth it to disssarm with the quarter staff for the +4 instead of the -4 (a swing of 8 points) and just drop their item to the ground. When they go to pick it up, trip attack and then proceed to wail on them with Flurry of Blows or grapple them.

There are some great feats that work with Trip in the net book of feats, but I don't know if your DM will allow them.

[Person_Man]

Disarm is generally a very poor tactic. Any good melee build should be able to kill or incapacitate one or more CR appropriate enemies in 1 round, unless it has some sort of special protection (flight, Invisibility, etc) and then the spellcasters should be prepared to kill it in 1 round. If you can't, it means you're built poorly. If your enemy is dead, then there is no reason to Disarm them. Thus, you wasting an action by making a Disarm attempt, when you should just kill them with that action.

Also, which do you care about more: Being a Monk, or being good at the special maneuvers? I have some excellent Grapple builds. I have even better Trip builds. But none of them use Monk, because of its inherent weaknesses. However, I have no intention of trying to argue with you about it, starting another "Monk's suck" thread. I just want to know, because it will inform my advice.


Assuming you prefer being a Monk over being effective:

Goliath or Half Giant: Powerful Build + Str bonus.

Touch of Golden Ice: Hit Evil enemy with natural attack, and they must Save or take d4 Dex damage. Book of Exalted Deeds.

Psionic Fist PrC: Get Expansion and at least 9 manifester ranks.

Freezing the Lifeblood: Turns your Stunning Fist into a paralyzing fist that lasts 1d4+1 rounds. But only really useful if you stay in Monk or Enlightened Fist, which fuel more Stunning Fist uses.

Knock-Down: Free trip attempts. What's not to love?

[Indon]

Disarm is generally a very poor tactic. Any good melee build should be able to kill or incapacitate one or more CR appropriate enemies in 1 round, unless it has some sort of special protection (flight, Invisibility, etc) and then the spellcasters should be prepared to kill it in 1 round. If you can't, it means you're built poorly.

If he's asking about it, wouldn't that imply that PC's and NPC's are all built poorly in his campaign, meaning it wouldn't be that bad a strategy? Otherwise, he'd probably have noted that every fight ends on the first round, or somesuch.

Now, disarming unarmed to get the weapon is particularly tricky since it's considering you as wielding a light weapon, since you get a -4 for wielding a light weapon. Sadly, I know of no feats which would nullify this penalty (by, say, allowing you to use a 2-handed unarmed strike).

Even if you do want to stick to unarmed disarming, you might want to keep a weapon around to disarm with just in case you need the bonuses. Rather than a quarterstaff, though, I'd recommend a large-sized Sai, wielded 2-handed. You get a -2 for wielding an oversized weapon, but a +4 for the sai and another +4 for wielding 2-handed, for a total +6 (10 better than trying it unarmed, the same difference as a locked gauntlet makes for a defender on a disarm roll).

[Person_Man]

If he's asking about it, wouldn't that imply that PC's and NPC's are all built poorly in his campaign, meaning it wouldn't be that bad a strategy? Otherwise, he'd probably have noted that every fight ends on the first round, or somesuch.

If he's asking about Disarm, that implies that single enemies in his combats fight on for many rounds. Thus, it seems like a good idea to Disarm the enemy. The easiest way to do this is to use Stunning Fist (enemy drops everything they're holding) not the Disarm maneuver. Or he can can take a superior action, and just kill his enemy in one round. That way it doesn't matter if his enemy is Disarmed or not, he's just dead.

And as you point out, the mechanic clearly works against the Monk. Since he's unarmed, he suffers from a big penalty (one handed weapon, light weapon). Using a Sai or even a two handed weapon really doesn't help much. It's an opposed roll, and he has MAD and mediocre BAB.

[Vazzaroth]

As to the -4: Improved Disarm gives a +4 to all attempts. That would balance out the -4 for light weapons, and I never said I wouldn't ever use a two hander. I might keep it around to get a +8 against fighters and such who could probably easily make the opposed attack roll.

And this character woudn't be an NPC, I intend to play it. It's not made to be effeciant at mowing down enemys, its made to eventually win all fights. (reasonably, of course) As the denying stance says: "The Denying Stance monk seeks to neutralize the opponent's maneuvers, thwarting him at every turn until he becomes so frustrated that he makes a crucial error."

I will be using defensive fighting and combat expertise. Especially at 6th.

Like I said, this is very much a one on one character, my party will be relied on to take out the others. He will be a neutralizer. Combat will present a number of options:
- Disarm them of any light weapons, and start a grapple, keeping them down while dealing my unarmed damage each round.
- Trip and then wait for them to provoke an attack, if they don't I get +4 to attack a prone character in melee
- Standard monk tactics, especially against very large/stable/monsterous creatures
Anyway, the character build is about options, that's what I'm trying to say.

Person: I am fairly commited to being a human, and I do not want to deal with any psionics for this character concept.

Edit: I forgot about Sais, I may carry some with me.

[kemmotar]

Concerning monks and special maneuvres it's not a bad idea...however, disarming and sundering has a very big weakness...The opponents don't always have weapons...However a trip build is quite good.

I'm currently playing a feral goliath monk, i started with 16 str and have atm +19 in my trip attempts against medium creatures...Also with knockdown whenever i get 10 damage in i get a free trip attempt which isn't quite difficult for 2d8+9 damage per hit

currently i'm trying to get permanent enlarge to bump up my trip bonus to +23. on the plus side, concerning trip attempts, when you yourself count as a huge creature you dont get minuses against huge creatures so its a quite good build. That way you only need two feats. Improved trip from monk bonus feats and then knockdown, superior unarmed strike for a bump in damage and you can get power attack and shocktrooper for the extra damage.

The only problem i've encountered is managing to actually hit something but that's a monk BAB problem and i'll soon be getting some true strikes per day on something to fix that

But i don't think monks are that weak if you fix them up nice. Of course someone will argue that they could do better with some other build but i's not all about powerplay...playing a monk is fun (soon i'm going into tatooed monk [probably a gimp PrC to most] coz its fun to never need to eat/drink/sleep and when everybody else is sleeping to hunt down criminals for the RP xp )

[Indon]

Oh, another thing I should note: You can use Disarm to grab carried or worn items that aren't well-secured (such as an amulet, or arguably perhaps a ring), or if you pin your target you can grab items that are well-secured (though the defender gets a bonus). You can also sunder carried or worn items, excepting armor (but probably including, say, Bracers of Armor, it's a bit ambiguous on the point).

[Vazzaroth]

I agree with kemmotar, I'm not trying to "optimize" everything about my character, I wanted some suggestions. So far that's gone ok.

And just to be clear, I never intend on trying to sunder, just disarm, trip, and grapple.

I think people undersetimate Grapple's function in crowd control.

[kemmotar]

Well if you wanna do grapples then you can also go for hulking hurler for a "bowling effect"...grapple and then throw the enemy at the other enemies
But a really good idea for crown control is karmic strike and knockdown+combat reflexes...must be really fun being in the middle of a mountain of prone enemies and whenever they try to get up you just use an AoO to knock them back down
The problem i find with grapple is that while you're doing that everybody else goes around doing what they want...grappling is good when you want to capture the enemy...but then again so is tripping if you ask me...plus it gives you a great advantage in battle.
1) when you trip him the rest of the attacks get +4 while when you grapple you actually get a minus in your to hit dice
2) they need to spend a whole round to get back on their feet without getting an AoO and if you go get one down they go again...that you you don't get attacked and you get +4 to hit him

Plus if you get karmic strike and hold the line you can pretty much trip anything that comes your way with AoO this would require a quite high dex monk but it's a nice thought for higher levels when you got money to spend on +6 gloves and probably a manual

[Vazzaroth]

Where is kharmic strike from? And Knockback, is that the MM feat?

And I won't be getting Improved Trip until lvl 6.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/cl...#denyingStance

[kemmotar]

Knockdown is in sword and fist and Karmic strike in complete warrior. knockdown gives you a free trip attempt whenever you deal 10 damage or more and karmic strike gives you an AoO whenever someone hits you. Also you get -4 AC from it to make it easier to get hit
basically i think you need combat expertise and combat reflexes. Oh and dex 13+ ...a high dex build would be ideal with this, even with 16-18 dex you'll be more than fine...but yeah, it's not something that happens in the first levels...you build it up but once you hit karmic strike and knockdown you'll get the upper hand

[Sornas]

Knockdown is in sword and fist and Karmic strike in complete warrior. knockdown gives you a free trip attempt whenever you deal 10 damage or more and karmic strike gives you an AoO whenever someone hits you. Also you get -4 AC from it to make it easier to get hit
basically i think you need combat expertise and combat reflexes. Oh and dex 13+ ...a high dex build would be ideal with this, even with 16-18 dex you'll be more than fine...but yeah, it's not something that happens in the first levels...you build it up but once you hit karmic strike and knockdown you'll get the upper hand

Sword and Fist is 3.0, but I think Knock Down got updated somewhere, can't remember off the top of my head.

Speaking of Sword and Fist, I can't find it right now, but I think that there was a varient in there, mentioning using both hands to disarm, and counting it as a medium weapon for the disarm.

Now, I know the sizes have changed, but I think it could still work, if your DM allows it, which shouldn't be too hard, since it's certainly not gamebreaking.