Ranger Sneak Attack variant

[rawling]

If I wanted to give the Ranger an option to get Sneak Attack dice instead of an animal companion (I'm sure someone can come up with a fluff reason ), what kind of progression would you suggest?
Nothing 'til 4th level, then as a Rogue of half as many levels, as the animal companion?

[Ikkitosen]

Hmmm, tough call. Rangers can already aid a rogue via their PHBII variant. To actually grant sneak attack...maybe 1d6 at 4th and an increase every 3 levels. Still won't be much, and rangers are hardly overpowered!

You could of course just make a feat like those in CompScoundrel that allow you full SA progression for another class. They generally require 3 levels of rogue, i.e.

Hunting Ambusher

Req: Sneak Attack +2D6, Favoured Enemy

Your rogue and ranger levels stack for the purposes of sneak attack and favoured enemy progression.

[Matthew]

Here's how I would do it...

Currently, Rogues get a maximum of 10D6 Sneak Attack Damage at Level 20, which averages at 35 Points of Damage. I hate Sneak Attack Dice, so instead I like to grant Rogues a fixed Damage Bonus. I use +2 DB per Level, which makes for Average Damage of 40 at level 20. In the case of the Ranger I would simply halve the Bonus, so that he gains +1 DB per Level via Sneak Attack. Hey presto, the Ranger has a Sneak Attack Bonus that isn't as good as the Rogue, but still pretty good.

Just my two Copper Coins, I hope they help.

[Ikkitosen]

Ah, you take all the fun out of it! I like the bucketload of D6s approach, it reminds me of Jedi in the old West End Star Wars RPG. "I get to add my lightsaber skill to my sense, eh? That's this big pile of dice over here." *clatter of falling dice* "You're dead!"

Ah, good times.

[Matthew]

Haha, I think that's where my hatred for tons of dice came from... I'll never live down that Jedi's destruction of my Star Destroyer with his X-Wing. Saying that, I still like 10D6 Fireballs... must be a nostalgia thing.

Okay, here's a variant, instead the ranger gets 1-10D3 Sneak Attack, almost the exact same thing! (i.e. you still roll 10 six sided dice, but the D6s are actually D3s...)

[rawling]

Well, no-one's completely shot down this idea yet, so I should probably own up to why I brought it up Long story...

I like the look of the Daggerspell Shaper prestige class (in a theoretical way; none of this is, as yet, intended for a real character). However, I don't like the at worst rubbish, or at best ambiguous, wildshape progression it offers. So I thought, well, Gestalt would let one keep a full Druid Wildshape progression as well as the benefits of the Shaper class.

OK, so, 5 levels of Rogue//Druid (Rogue for the required Sneak attack plus fluff for the TWF) and then into Daggerspell Shaper//Druid.

Then I thought, hmm. If one is Gestalting a Divine casting class and a prestige class which gives Divine cassting progression, how does that work? As a 5 Rogue / 8 Daggerspell Shaper // 13 Druid, is one casting as a (13 + (8-1) =) 20th level Druid, in which case further levels of Druid will be a bit of a waste, or are the Prestige casting levels wasted?

So then I thought, OK, just have levels in another Divine caster that you can gain spell progression in.

Hmm. Ranger has Divine spellcasting (albeit quite poor), and it also gives TWF feats for free - without even requiring the Dex prerequisites.

Hmm. Ranger has an animal companion, which (I guess) would be wasted as Druid already has one. I wonder, if I present a Animal Companion -> Sneak Attack idea to the awesome GitP boards, with no context, will they go for it, thus removing the need to take any levels of Rogue?

The result: a Gestalt class with some SA progression throughout, some full BAB progression throughout, all good saves throughout, one and a half Divine casting throughout, 6-skills throughout, full Wild Shape thoughout, full TWF... that's quite some synergy.

[Matthew]

I wouldn't worry about it. Gestalt is crazy powerful to begin with, giving it 1-20, 5-30 or even 10-30 extra Damage via Sneak Attack at Level 20 would be no big deal.

[rawling]

Hmm, would one's Ranger and Druid levels stack for the Animal Companion?

I'm thinking no Presumably this falls under the Gestalt "best at each level" philosophy.

Druid gets +1 Effective Druid Level for the Animal Companion every level.
Ranger... well, at 4th level their Effective Druid Level goes up two! And then it goes up either 0.5 every level after that, or 1 every other level.

Probably best just to say "No, they don't stack". Unless you take a level of Ranger//Daggerspell Shaper. In which case you might get 0.5 EDL. Or 1. Depending on how you look at it.

[Talya]

Hmm, would one's Ranger and Druid levels stack for the Animal Companion?

Of course they do. Assuming you take them in the same collumn...for instance, "20 swordsage//10 ranger/10 druid" is a 15th level druid for animal companion purposes. But 20 ranger//20 druid is only a 20th level druid for animal companion purposes.