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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Warlocks: Divine or Arcane?

    Just an idea that I found myself thinking about. My DM views Monks as a Divine class (The monk and the cleric were the only two characters that could walk through the demon darkness wall...I don't know what it was) and while no one in the party was a warlock I couldn't help but think of it. I'm making a warlock soon, so that might have something to do with it.

    So yeah, warlocks. They divine casters or arcane casters?
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    For some reason this feels really fitting; I got a mental image of a bunch of psions setting up a LAN party.

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    Default Re: Warlocks: Divine or Arcane?

    Neither. Eldritch/Other.

    Seriously, Divine/Arcane only has meaning for Clerics and Wizards. Wizards are arcane. Clerics are Divine. Sorcerers, Warlocks, Druids, Paladins, and Rangers are neither.

    Edit: I take that back, Paladins specifically learn to cast spells 'as a Cleric does' so you could consider their magic divine too. Rangers also reference casting 'much as a Druid does'. And Druids and Clerics both specify Divine sources.

    Warlocks say "your arcane studies and magic bestowed on you by you Patron" so that makes them a mix of Arcane and Eldritch.

    Sorcerers are unspecified and talk about a bunch of different sources including elemental.

    Bards power their magic with Music, apparently a power source unto itself.

    Each class tells you how it gets its power under its Spellcasting section (Pact Magic for Warlocks), or in the case of Sorcerers throughout its fluff text.
    Last edited by Tanarii; 2015-10-29 at 06:52 PM.

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    WhiteWizardGirl

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    Default Re: Warlocks: Divine or Arcane?

    Mechanically Arcane.

    Thematically Divine.

    The key difference is the nature of their patron. Sometimes all they give to the warlock is some starting power or a speck of knowledge while the cleric has an ever present god-like being they are channeling.

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    MonkGirl

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    Default Re: Warlocks: Divine or Arcane?

    Mechanically they are Arcane, but fluff could go either way... The demon teaches you forbidden magic? Arcane, wizard style. It 'awakens an inner power'? Arcane, sorcerer style. You 'channel it's energy', Divine

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    Default Re: Warlocks: Divine or Arcane?

    Sorcerers don't use Arcane magic. Their sources are draconic, elemental, fey, Eldritch, etc.

    Edit: when I'm wrong I'm wrong. Sorcerers and Warlocks both still clearly use arcane magic in 5e. Sorcerer only says it once, but it's right in the Spellcasting Feature.
    Last edited by Tanarii; 2015-10-29 at 07:41 PM.

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    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Warlocks: Divine or Arcane?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    Sorcerers don't use Arcane magic. Their sources are draconic, elemental, fey, Eldritch, etc.

    Edit: when I'm wrong I'm wrong. Sorcerers and Warlocks both clearly use arcane magic.
    So arcane is the domain of wizards and wizard like classes.

    Edit: Is there a word for being wrong after the poster pointed out they were wrong? Like how ninja'd works.
    Last edited by Ralanr; 2015-10-29 at 07:44 PM.

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    Default Re: Warlocks: Divine or Arcane?

    Yeah, I thought 5e had departed from a simple Divine/Arcane divide for magic, because the fluff talks heavily about source of magic for most classes. But when you get down too it, they still seem to divide the type of magic into two categories, Divine or Arcane. It's just not very prominent labeling. Which implies it's not really that important a distinction. Or at least, not as important as the source of your magic.

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    Griffon

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    Default Re: Warlocks: Divine or Arcane?

    Warlocks are introduced in "Complete Arcane" in 3.5.
    They use the Arcane Power Source in 4e.
    They know Presdigitation, not Thaumaturgy, in 5e.

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    MonkGirl

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    Default Re: Warlocks: Divine or Arcane?

    While it varies depending on setting, Divine magic is where you take 'natural' sources that can bend reality (Gods, Spirits, the raw primal power of Nature, maybe some Warlock Patrons?) and beg/borrow/steal that power to a lesser degree to shape reality through spells. In 5e, Clerics, Druids, Rangers, Paladins, and Totem Barbarians use this method

    Arcane magic uses clever tricks, cheat codes left in creation, and glitches in the fabric of reality to get existence to do what you want... Wizards via learned tricks, sorcerers through force of will and natural ability... Bards, Wizards, warlocks, sorcerers, arcane tricksters, eldritch Knights are the 5e users of Arcane style

    Psionics are essentially using massive willpower to force reality (which is inherently mutable in DnD cosmology) to rewrite itself to your will/perception in specific, practiced ways. It is different than magic in that it doesn't rely on using the 'existing' channels and rules of the universe to enact change the way magic does, which is why it interacts inconsistently with things that effect 'magic'

    I would guess that many of the beings that grant/teach/awaken arcane warlock magic could also grant divine spells (true Demon Lords and Arch-Devils, top Arch-Fey, the few Old Ones relatable enough to worship), awaken sorcerous ability, or spark Psionic potential

    Divine and Arcane magic are spelled out somewhere in the book (not in class descriptions), I'm AFB so I can't find page but it mattered in some of the Elemental Evil stuff for Adventure League (the setting city outlawed Arcane magic but not Divine)
    Last edited by Naanomi; 2015-10-29 at 08:08 PM.

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    Zombie

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    Default Re: Warlocks: Divine or Arcane?

    By the written fluff, they are arcane. If I remember right the description doesn't say they draw power from their patron, it says their patron teaches them secrets.

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    Default Re: Warlocks: Divine or Arcane?

    Okay found it. It's spelled out in the Sidebar "The Weave of Magic" on PHB pg 205.

    3rd paragraph:
    "All magic depends on the Weave, though different kinds of magic access it in a variety of ways. The spells of wizards, warlocks, sorcerers, and bards are commonly called arcane magic. These spells rely on an understanding - learned or intuitive - of the workings of the Weave. The caster plucks directly at the strands of the Weave to create the desired effect. Eldritch knights and arcane trickersters also use arcane magic. The spells of clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers are called divine magic. These spellcasters' access to the Weave is mediated by divine power - gods, the divine forces of nature, or the sacred weight of a paladin's spell."
    (bolding is in the PHB)

    So there two types of magic, primal appears to be gone. The Weave is part of bog-standard D&D now, not just FR, which I was unaware of. And lastly, the difference between the two is simple:
    Arcane users touch the weave directly.
    Divine users don't touch the weave directly.

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    MonkGirl

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    Default Re: Warlocks: Divine or Arcane?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    So there two types of magic, primal appears to be gone. The Weave is part of bog-standard D&D now, not just FR, which I was unaware of. And lastly, the difference between the two is simple:
    Arcane users touch the weave directly.
    Divine users don't touch the weave directly.
    FR fluff (which does appear to be default now) has psionics as using meditation and mental energy to construct a 'personal weave' that springs into existence separate from the existing weave and only exists for the duration of the Psionic effect

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    Kobold

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    Default Re: Warlocks: Divine or Arcane?

    My answer is Yes. Because magic items. Any "Wizard-type only" magic items can be used by a Warlock. "Priest-type" magic items - such as the Staff of the Adder and Staff of the Python - can be used by Warlocks.

    Thematically, Warlocks stand on the line between the two. Part empowered by outside forces, part taught magic by unnatural powers. I would have liked to see a little more in terms of divine touches for the Warlock - Thaumaturgy really ought to be in their list.

    But at the end of the day, magic is magic. Once you get past the type of foci used, it's all the same.

    But back to the original question, I would like to know if a Druid would have been able to pass the barrier. Or if their character backgrounds (was the Monk an Acolyte?) played a role.
    Why yes, Warlock is my solution for everything.

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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: Warlocks: Divine or Arcane?

    The Arcane/Divine divide is a human construct. The spells themselves aren't arcane or divine. A fireball cast by a Wizard, Bard, Sorcerer, Fiend Warlock or Light Cleric can't be differentiated. There's no difference between a "divine" fireball and an "arcane" fireball. It doesn't do different damage, affect outerplanar creatures differently or have different saves. A spell is a spell.

    I'd be hard pressed to consider the origin of a warlocks power to be divine. Even the GOO warlock in my party who thinks he's following Cthulhu doesn't feel he's a cleric... he spouts mystical end of days stuff, but recognizes he sounds crazy and doesn't take offense in our lack of belief. Warlocks tap into a primordial power - ancient fiends, uber powerful fey or voidwalking elder gods who have forgotten humanity - but it's still them bending reality to their will - not siphoning off said power as a cleric would.

    I don't understand your DMs take on Monks either - Ki is a mystical energy source, akin to psionics - it's self generated and neither taught nor drawn from an outside influence. But if you're thinking classic cloistered holy man, I guess it makes some sense...
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    SamuraiGuy

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    Default Re: Warlocks: Divine or Arcane?

    5e "crunch" normally doesn't have the arcane / divine distinction. As noted above, it's still there in the "fluff", and the fluff is pretty clear that warlocks are on the arcane side.

    To which I utter a hearty, emphatic, feh. FEH!!!!

    No patron, no spells.

    Furthermore, I can easily imagine a deity that grants the power to touch the Weave directly, and a wizard who by study learns how to manipulate the Weave via an intermediary deity of some sort.

    I call upon WotC, who of course heed my every utterance, to get rid of this distinction in 6th. So let it be written, so let it be woven.
    This ... is my signature finishing move!

    "It's never good when you make a fiend cringe" - MadGrady

    According to some online quiz, I'm a 6th level TN Wizard. They didn't give me full XP for all the monsters I've defeated while daydreaming.
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    Default Re: Warlocks: Divine or Arcane?

    Monk it is an odd case, because at least here in western (european) culture they are viewed as religious people, just like clerics, but in d&d they have nothing to do with religion.

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    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Warlocks: Divine or Arcane?

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe the Rat View Post
    My answer is Yes. Because magic items. Any "Wizard-type only" magic items can be used by a Warlock. "Priest-type" magic items - such as the Staff of the Adder and Staff of the Python - can be used by Warlocks.

    Thematically, Warlocks stand on the line between the two. Part empowered by outside forces, part taught magic by unnatural powers. I would have liked to see a little more in terms of divine touches for the Warlock - Thaumaturgy really ought to be in their list.

    But at the end of the day, magic is magic. Once you get past the type of foci used, it's all the same.

    But back to the original question, I would like to know if a Druid would have been able to pass the barrier. Or if their character backgrounds (was the Monk an Acolyte?) played a role.
    Druid probably. I'll ask my DM about that. I think the monk was from the acolytes background, she was also a sun soul monk (recently converted) and had radiant damage.
    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    "Just because the DM lets you break the game, doesn't mean the game is broken."
    Quote Originally Posted by Steampunkette View Post
    "My Patron is Steven Spielberg"
    Quote Originally Posted by CNagy View Post
    For some reason this feels really fitting; I got a mental image of a bunch of psions setting up a LAN party.

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    Default Re: Warlocks: Divine or Arcane?

    Quote Originally Posted by Theodoxus View Post
    The Arcane/Divine divide is a human construct.
    technically, it isnt. It describes how the caster interacts with the weave: directly or indirectly. There just aren't (as far as I know) any mechanics for this yet. It's fluff. But that doesn't make it a human construct ... Unless you mean it's a construct of how humans choose to interact with the metaverse. But it's a real thing, not just in the human mind. Unlike human constructs like love, honor, truth, justice, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shining Wrath View Post
    I call upon WotC, who of course heed my every utterance, to get rid of this distinction in 6th. So let it be written, so let it be woven.
    yeah. I'd honestly thought they'd ditched it in favor of magic being magic, and the source being important, and variable within a class and specific to your character. Not the 'category', with broad categories covering multiple classes. I'm really disappointed that's not the case.
    Last edited by Tanarii; 2015-10-30 at 10:55 AM.

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    Default Re: Warlocks: Divine or Arcane?

    I like the idea of divine and arcane magic being different. Maybe it's just since I began in 3.5, but I think that there is and should be a significant difference in how a Wizard and a Cleric work their spells. Arcane and Divine casters, after all, do tend to have very different spell lists that do very different things. It just seems right that there be a distinction between the Cleric who asks for power and a Wizard who makes their own power.

    That said, Primal does seem a bit silly as a third magic type. But again, that might just be my personal bias as someone who doesn't much like 4th edition.

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    Default Re: Warlocks: Divine or Arcane?

    I like that they're different too. I was just hoping they ditched the 'underlying magic is all the same source' idea, and allowed the player to define what the source of the magic was, within suggestions for the class.

    OTOH for the warlock specifically, they kind of do have some stuff that isn't arcane. Eldritch Invocations, the Pact Boon, and the Pact Features are all drawing directly on the power of the Patron. Some of them might be considered a form of power outside the Weave completely.

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    SamuraiGuy

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    Default Re: Warlocks: Divine or Arcane?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    I like that they're different too. I was just hoping they ditched the 'underlying magic is all the same source' idea, and allowed the player to define what the source of the magic was, within suggestions for the class.

    OTOH for the warlock specifically, they kind of do have some stuff that isn't arcane. Eldritch Invocations, the Pact Boon, and the Pact Features are all drawing directly on the power of the Patron. Some of them might be considered a form of power outside the Weave completely.
    A Great Old One might be outside the Weave, for that matter. That would be interesting; something whose presence made the Weave stop working, or work differently. Sort of like dropping a black hole into space-time.
    This ... is my signature finishing move!

    "It's never good when you make a fiend cringe" - MadGrady

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    WhiteWizardGirl

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    Default Re: Warlocks: Divine or Arcane?

    I think Warlocks are implied to have more give and take than ye average divine caster. They are cha casters like sorcerers so the Pact imbues "innate" talent but the warlock still has to cultivate it and use it directly. Like divine casters a Warlock Patron could just cut off the power supply, but then that potentially hands a powerful tool into a rival patron's hands.

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    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Warlocks: Divine or Arcane?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mara View Post
    I think Warlocks are implied to have more give and take than ye average divine caster. They are cha casters like sorcerers so the Pact imbues "innate" talent but the warlock still has to cultivate it and use it directly. Like divine casters a Warlock Patron could just cut off the power supply, but then that potentially hands a powerful tool into a rival patron's hands.
    One concept I had for a warlock was that they could act as a chosen of a powerful being. Said being could also have clerics, but they could employ warlocks for tasks that clerics are ill suited for.

    Which I'm sure someone with decent optimization knowledge will find this hilarious.
    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    "Just because the DM lets you break the game, doesn't mean the game is broken."
    Quote Originally Posted by Steampunkette View Post
    "My Patron is Steven Spielberg"
    Quote Originally Posted by CNagy View Post
    For some reason this feels really fitting; I got a mental image of a bunch of psions setting up a LAN party.

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    Default Re: Warlocks: Divine or Arcane?

    Quote Originally Posted by Naanomi View Post
    FR fluff (which does appear to be default now) has psionics as using meditation and mental energy to construct a 'personal weave' that springs into existence separate from the existing weave and only exists for the duration of the Psionic effect
    For some reason this feels really fitting; I got a mental image of a bunch of psions setting up a LAN party.

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    Default Re: Warlocks: Divine or Arcane?

    Personally I let my players decide themselves what their character's power source is (though I assume the default if they don't tell me otherwise). Then again, I also let them do this with casting ability, I have an int based fiend (book pact) warlock in the group who gained his power from a mixture of innate ability (he is a tiefling) and research, essentially acting as his own patron.


    Quote Originally Posted by CNagy View Post
    For some reason this feels really fitting; I got a mental image of a bunch of psions setting up a LAN party.
    And is one of those times I've wished there was a 'like' button on these forums.

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    Default Re: Warlocks: Divine or Arcane?

    With respect to the Warlock and Sorcerer, things are pretty cut-and-dry:

    Sorcerer:

    PHB pg. 101:
    An event in your past, or in the life of a parent or ancestor, left an indelible mark on you, infusing you with arcane magic.

    PHB pg. 101:
    You can use an arcane focus (found in chapter 5) as a spellcasting focus for your sorcerer spells.


    Warlock:

    PHB pg. 105:
    Drawing on the ancient knowledge of beings such as fey nobles, demons, devils, hags, and alien entities o f the Far Realm, warlocks piece together arcane secrets to bolster their own power.

    PHB pg. 107:
    Your arcane research and the magic bestowed on you by your patron have given you facility with spells.

    PHB pg. 107:
    You can use an arcane focus (found in chapter 5) as a spellcasting focus for your w arlock spells.

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    Default Re: Warlocks: Divine or Arcane?

    Quote Originally Posted by CNagy View Post
    For some reason this feels really fitting; I got a mental image of a bunch of psions setting up a LAN party.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tenmujiin View Post
    And is one of those times I've wished there was a 'like' button on these forums.

    We do, it's called asking if we can quote. Speaking of which, may I quote this?
    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    "Just because the DM lets you break the game, doesn't mean the game is broken."
    Quote Originally Posted by Steampunkette View Post
    "My Patron is Steven Spielberg"
    Quote Originally Posted by CNagy View Post
    For some reason this feels really fitting; I got a mental image of a bunch of psions setting up a LAN party.

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    Default Re: Warlocks: Divine or Arcane?

    Quote Originally Posted by D.U.P.A. View Post
    Monk it is an odd case, because at least here in western (european) culture they are viewed as religious people, just like clerics, but in d&d they have nothing to do with religion.
    The monk class isn't based even a little bit on the Western monk, though. It's a fantasy version of the Shaolin (Buddhist) monks of China.

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    Default Re: Warlocks: Divine or Arcane?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ralanr View Post
    We do, it's called asking if we can quote. Speaking of which, may I quote this?
    Feel free to.

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    Default Re: Warlocks: Divine or Arcane?

    Quote Originally Posted by Naanomi View Post
    FR fluff (which does appear to be default now) has psionics as using meditation and mental energy to construct a 'personal weave' that springs into existence separate from the existing weave and only exists for the duration of the Psionic effect
    Doesn't the UA Psionics directly contradict this? Psionics that create spells *are* magic according to it. That means Psionics manipulates the weave itself for any effect that duplicates a spell.

    Edit: not to dump on the LAN party comment. I lol'd.
    Last edited by Tanarii; 2015-10-31 at 12:29 AM.

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