Fantasy Counterpart Cultures: Dos and Don'ts

[slachance6]

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...terpartCulture

Every fantasy world has them. Nomadic horse raiders from the east that are totally not Mongols, ancient desert pyramid builders that are totally not Egyptians, a feudal society with pagodas and katanas ruled by a caste of warriors that is totally not Japan, you get the idea. What are your opinions on such blatant inspiration from the real world's history? Is there a way to do them right or wrong, either when creating a world or when playing a character from one of these cultures?

[Ralanr]

Don't be lazy.

[Aetol]

Don't be racist, even unintentionally.

[Zrak]

I think it's always more interesting to make weird frankencultures than straight-out lift (or, more usually, attempt to lift) something wholecloth. It lets you keep recognizable elements of real-world cultures as a sort of touchstone players can understand, while also creating a more unique, alien feeling overall.

Also, if you're going to give Counterpart cultures to non-humans, being extra double careful about the whole "not being racist" thing. Also, for the love of all that is decent and good, no more Scottish dwarves.

[Hawkstar]

I think it's always more interesting to make weird frankencultures than straight-out lift (or, more usually, attempt to lift) something wholecloth. It lets you keep recognizable elements of real-world cultures as a sort of touchstone players can understand, while also creating a more unique, alien feeling overall.

Also, if you're going to give Counterpart cultures to non-humans, being extra double careful about the whole "not being racist" thing. Also, for the love of all that is decent and good, no more Scottish dwarves.

Scottish dwarves are awesome. The problem is Native American Orcs.

[PersonMan]

One thing I'd recommend is research and focus - instead of just grabbing the most obvious trappings thrown around in most media, find something not normally in the limelight and put it in the front while putting a spin on it. Mixing different cultures together can also be helpful in avoiding cardboard cutouts of stereotypical representations of real world cultures.

Totally Not Japan, for example, might have an extensive caste system that is defined not by birth but by the results of a ritual that takes place in late childhood. The results determine one's life, a mix of superstition, logically constructed but incorrect theories and truth let the priests determine each child's true calling. A complex social system that involves hundreds of rules that determine how to behave around every other caste, down to things like who is allowed to wield which weapons, whose name is spoken first in a list and similar is built up around this, intertwined with the teachings of a mixture of Confucianism and animism, which states that the adherence to the ancient social order and its carefully constructed rules is vital to not just society but the survival of humanity, lest it anger the powerful spirits of the world it relies on.

Cutting it short, there's a combination of various elements there, which you can mix with the most typical (curved blade wielding warrior class, specific architecture) to create something unique enough to not just be a lazy copy but based on the real world enough to not be impossible to relate to. Taking elements from several cultures, especially ones not present in typical fantasy counterparts, and mixing them with a properly researched understanding of one or more underlying elements of the "base" culture can create something similar to but unique from the real world version.

[slachance6]

Scottish dwarves are awesome. The problem is Native American Orcs.

What's wrong with Native American Orcs? When they're not all evil, of course.

[Agrippa]

Scottish dwarves are awesome. The problem is Native American Orcs.

Yeah, white South African, Industrial Age English or Pinkerton-style strike breaker orcs make much more sense.

[Kitten Champion]

I've never seen actual attempts at Scottish Dwarves. The Tolkien-esque greedy miners with a huge stubborn streak and some deep prejudice that's usually played off as somewhat comedic - that I've seen a lot of - actual attempts to integrate Scottish historical elements into their civilization haven't come up.

Though, on the whole, I think it's important to remember that these are fantasy societies - insofar as the fantastical exists as a matter of course. So, look at the mythologies of the society you're wishing to mirror to give them distinct and larger-than-life presence.

For instance - and this is a simple example - pulling a sword from the stone to prove you're the destined king/queen of the land can be an actual thing, now you've moved into a literal virtue-based divine-right hierarchy. That emperor who sought immortality, achieves it, and has been in power and been steadily sinking into madness for over a century now. The royal consort who's been rumoured to have seduced and enchanted the lord actually is a capricious spirit bent on malevolence.

There are lots of these stories and you can mix, match, and subvert them in lots of ways. It's something you generally see in most official settings whenever they tackle some semi-exotic civilization as the locale of their campaign setting.

[LudicSavant]

One thing I'd recommend is research and focus - instead of just grabbing the most obvious trappings thrown around in most media, find something not normally in the limelight and put it in the front while putting a spin on it.

Good call.

I cannot emphasize enough the value of research. If you've only had a public school education in "social studies," odds are you know rather little about history or anthropology... and also probably think that history is dry and boring and just a collection of names and dates. Many textbooks are written with the express purpose of pandering to as many school boards' pet biases as possible and scrubbing anything resembling controversy (read: historical content) to get as wide adoption as possible. If you go out and read books that have not been filtered through that system, you may be stunned by just how interesting you actually find history to be. And of course, there's an absolute treasure trove of inspiration to be found there.

Also, consider how the various cultures in your world might interact and influence each other, and how the cultures of your world have developed from their own history. Don't simply plop Japan into the world and change the name.

[Deffers]

I would advise that you DON'T make one fantasy race directly equivalent to one culture at all. Usually, in fantasy worlds, races coexist so closely to each other that you can't really justify vast differences in cultural signifiers due to the distances involved.

For example: if the orc warband's hideout is a day's ride out from your quaint English-style village with maypoles and thatched roof cottages, it'd be really freaking weird to find Native-American or Mongol-inspired orcs if this is a recurrent threat the village faces.

"Oh, yeah, we constantly trash the town-- our fathers and grandfathers have done so to, and their fathers and grandfathers shared in this tradition."

"How is it you have zero cultural cross-pollination?"

"Eeeeeeennnhhhh."

Doesn't make much sense, does it? So, I mean, you wanna make it so that there's some amount of... not-insanity, *or* finely mince your counterpart cultures to the point where they're no longer recognizable by regional tells.

If your orcs have metal swords and armor and stuff, do things like make them have highly mobile smithies, maybe operating out of the back of a wagon that's been retrofitted to do the job. If your system's polytheistic, make sure there's some mythological cross-polination going on.

Maybe do some research on ethnic differences within a culture that interests you, and draw inspiration from there, instead of just making massively geographically diverse cultures coexist without pollination. However, the caveat of "don't be racist" becomes, like, a million times more important.

So for example, if you've got Native American orcs, have Native American Elves and Humans as well, and make it so that members from different races are welcomed into tribes where they're non-predominant like what actually happened with Native American tribes. If you want conflict between them, make reference to a previous allegiance of tribes that delineated sectarian issues between them in the past. Like what actually happened with Native American tribes. And you can find historical examples of similar cultural clashes from around the world. Enough that, with a little bit of creativity, you can probably adapt the situation of one continent to the aesthetic of another.

Another thing: DO be willing to mix aesthetics with different cultural values. Maybe your high-fantasy European-looking culture has a rigid caste system and strong belief in reincarnation. Maybe the desert-dwelling tribes who ride on camels have a robust democracy based on communal values. Maybe the Mayaincatec group du jour has a strong emphasis on filial piety and takes cues from philosophies of Chinese Legalism. Why not? It's your world-- it subverts expectations.

[Strigon]

I've never seen actual attempts at Scottish Dwarves. The Tolkien-esque greedy miners with a huge stubborn streak and some deep prejudice that's usually played off as somewhat comedic - that I've seen a lot of - actual attempts to integrate Scottish historical elements into their civilization haven't come up.

That's because they normally only act "Scottish", what with their accents, beards, love of strong drink and clan/family-based camaraderie, while their actual history and culture is usually vastly different.

As for how to do it? Simple; take important values and ideals from each culture, not just what they're known for among laymen. I.E, the "Egypt" could simply be a highly religious folk who also enjoy sports and feats of engineering; no need for them to build pyramids or even live in a desert.

[Ralanr]

That's because they normally only act "Scottish", what with their accents, beards, love of strong drink and clan/family-based camaraderie, while their actual history and culture is usually vastly different.

As for how to do it? Simple; take important values and ideals from each culture, not just what they're known for among laymen. I.E, the "Egypt" could simply be a highly religious folk who also enjoy sports and feats of engineering; no need for them to build pyramids or even live in a desert.

One Cracked article suggested dwarves were based on jewish culture. So...jewish scotsmen.

Yeah, white South African, Industrial Age English or Pinkerton-style strike breaker orcs make much more sense.

As do middle eastern, Russian, Haitian, and Hawaiian orcs. (Actually building off of some Haitian influences for an orcish character I'm making...it's mainly Baron Samedi skull face stuff mixed in with seasonal themes of non tropical forest biomes. Which are apparently called temperate deciduous forest biomes).

Mainly because I like fall and using spectral leaves and skull face paint sounds awesome.

[Hawkstar]

I would advise that you DON'T make one fantasy race directly equivalent to one culture at all. Usually, in fantasy worlds, races coexist so closely to each other that you can't really justify vast differences in cultural signifiers due to the distances involved.

For example: if the orc warband's hideout is a day's ride out from your quaint English-style village with maypoles and thatched roof cottages, it'd be really freaking weird to find Native-American or Mongol-inspired orcs if this is a recurrent threat the village faces.

"Oh, yeah, we constantly trash the town-- our fathers and grandfathers have done so to, and their fathers and grandfathers shared in this tradition."

"How is it you have zero cultural cross-pollination?"

Human answer: "The same reason we don't share the culture of our rats!"

Orc answer: "Their culture keeps getting them sacked. Why would we want any of that?"

[Zrak]

Scottish dwarves are awesome. The problem is Native American Orcs.

Are those really that ubiquitous? I can't really think of a single example, even on a superficial level. If it is A Thing and I'm just blissfully ignorant of it, though, yeah, I imagine it's pretty terrible.

I've never seen actual attempts at Scottish Dwarves. The Tolkien-esque greedy miners with a huge stubborn streak and some deep prejudice that's usually played off as somewhat comedic - that I've seen a lot of - actual attempts to integrate Scottish historical elements into their civilization haven't come up.

You see Scots-esque clan structures and cultural trappings often enough; while the engagement isn't exactly deep, thoughtful, or based in historical fact, it is nonetheless pretty ubiquitous. I guess what I mean is Dwarves are often about as Scottish as not!Egypt is Egyptian.

[Deffers]

Human answer: "The same reason we don't share the culture of our rats!"

Orc answer: "Their culture keeps getting them sacked. Why would we want any of that?"

Counterpoint: Kublai Khan didn't give a damn about how his granddad sacked things when he a stately pleasure dome did decree. Wealth and comfort put asses in seats. And you don't tend to sack the poor and uncomfortable. Waste of good men.

Ironically, the Genghis Khan example really show how those two lines of thought don't really matter all that much in real life. The invadees saw the Mongols as savages, and barbarians, and Mongols, in the traditional cultural style under Temujin, didn't much care-- if you kick ass, you're in. If you suck ass, you're out. Good, bad, they're the ones with the bows. Consequently, they killed boatloads of civilians. Two generations later, though... grandkid's ruling China.

[Florian]

I think that using Counterpart Cultures is the same as using archetypes or commonly used cliches - its helpful at speeding up comunication and gives the option to build on preexisting knowledge that doesn't need to be explained at length during actual play.
"X is like Y" simply is a useful tool.

As for the Dos and Don'ts, I think that you still have to put some work in it and actually be knowledgeable in what the original subject matter is all about. This will get important the moment you notice that different people possess varying levels of knowledge and/or different preconceptions and you're faced with the situation that you still need to give a better explanation.
In addition, most of the time, a simple reskinning job just doesn't do it or is contrary to the stuff fantasy gaming is all about. Things that make sense in the real world tend to do have that kind of basis that is grounded in the real world and that does not translate well.
One thing I do think is important is looking at crosscultural polination and how that is not all too common (up to/beyond a certain degree). Strangely, it is a common critique that placement of certain cultures or the cultures themselves are "not logical", when we do/did have the same situation in real life.

[nedz]

It is useful to ground your fantasy world in reality to a degree. The main advantage is free verisimilitude; but it also shows up the differences since your twists on the culture will jar with expectations and stand out more. If you go for a totally blue/orange kind of world then you run the risk of confusing the players; which can be a good or a bad thing.

Nomadic horse raiders from the east that are totally not Mongols,

There were many instances of nomadic horse raiders from the east in human history: Scythians, Cimmerians, Huns, Bulgars, Magyars, Mongols, Cossacks — and I've probably missed a few.

Chinese history also records many nomadic horse raiders from the west, which also included Mongols.

They are a consequence of Horses + Steppe: so if you have this terrain/fauna combo then this ought to have some consequence or you risk verisimilitude.

[NovenFromTheSun]

DO have an understanding of the needs, mindset, and philosophies of the culture you're using and not just the outward expressions of such.

DON'T ignore the non-Earth elements that would clearly have an effect on the above.

[Hybridartifacts]

Mash ups always strike me as more interesting than just relabelling a culture. They do take more thought but the results seem much more engaging and avoid that ah - you mean these are really Vikings moments.

[Sredni Vashtar]

DO remember that any non-human races should still be recognizably non-human even if you're drawing from historical (human) cultures. (Even if your elves are based off of Israeli culture, they should still recognizably be elves.)

DO look into real life non-human social structures for ideas for cultures. (Mapping gnoll culture off of hyena behavior is an obvious one.)

DON'T steal whole cloth. (It helps mask your idea's origins. Maybe our Israeli elves also have a caste system similar to India.)

DON'T rely on clichés. (Clichés are instantly recognizable and can be very useful, but over-reliance on them can make things feel stale.)

[goto124]

DO have a culture based on penguins.

Hmm, I wonder what that one will look like...

[Joe the Rat]

Remarkably egalitarian balance of work, and a strong communal nature (sharing of resources), particularly during the time of cold and darkness. May or may not be rather taciturn at the tragedy of others.

And nobody else likes their music.


DO: mix and match. The broad aesthetics and technology is as much about resources as values. Buckskins and Bushido.

DO: Avoid monoculture races.
DO: remember that borrowing from others is a thing. If you use "Common" as a language, you are buying into the whole "language of commerce" idea. So expect ideas and products to be making inroads.
DO: make choices beyond aesthetic reasons. Elves may look graceful and be into the whole silk robes and curved blades thing, but a focus on the community, clan and teamwork, and the importance of face and honor are more at home with "traditional" dwarves.

DON'T: Make too big a point of it. Counterpart cultures give you easy touchstones for style and themes. If your players don't ask, don't explain how their technology relates to the poor quality and availability of iron, which is why they've developed such advanced alchemy to extend or replace those resources, and why most their high-quality weapons and armor have a dwarven aesthetic (though maintaining the iconography of the culture), which is also related to why they are shifting away from their highly tonal formal language into something easier for their dealings with other races, though the High Tongue is still used in academic and religious practice.

I give Hobgoblins a complex martial co-operative rule style, based on the dealings of the triumvirate period of the roman empire with a dash of coalition government (and goblins make for great plebeians). I get back "So, like Klingons." "...Sure."

[RossN]

Are those really that ubiquitous? I can't really think of a single example, even on a superficial level. If it is A Thing and I'm just blissfully ignorant of it, though, yeah, I imagine it's pretty terrible.

I think it might because of the more modern tendency to portray Orcs as heroic Noble Savage types.

Classic (ie. evil and unintelligent) Orcs tend to portrayed as European style barbarians mostly - Goths or Vandals, though I have seen Mongol/Hunnic Orcs too.

[Sredni Vashtar]

DO have a culture based on penguins.

Hmm, I wonder what that one will look like...

A mostly monogamous, almost communist society lead by whoever happens to do something influential at the moment, that is mostly male and open to homosexual relationships (pairing up is encouraged strongly, regardless of the genders of those involved). Child rearing is highly emphasized, as are stones (used for building homes). Could work well for dwarves, I'd say.

[Honest Tiefling]

DO: mix and match. The broad aesthetics and technology is as much about resources as values. Buckskins and Bushido.

I agree with this, especially for those without interest or time to study history. You tend to sidestep a lot of stereotypes because not a lot of people have stereotypes about Japanese Roman Native Americans oddly enough. If you lack information on one aspect of life you can quickly substitute in information about other people and call it a day.

And DO research. Actual research. If another player comes to me with a 'gypsy' character that does a sexy dance, I swear I am going to smack them repeatedly.

[VoxRationis]

Fantasy counterpart cultures are lazy, but they can be a useful tool. Sometimes you just want to adventure in a particular culture, or to DM a particular culture, in a fantasy setting, and changing it would be exactly the opposite of what you're trying to get across.
For example: Imperial Rome is a fantastic (no pun intended) setting to put an adventure in. Lots of frontiers, but also lots of populated cities. Lots of cultural interchange, lots of conflict (of all kinds), just perfect. Therefore, I cribbed one of my settings nearly straight from Imperial Rome.
Therefore:
DO: Use fantasy counterpart cultures to fulfill the desires of your group to play in those cultures.
DON'T: Try to pass them off as original. They're not. They're never going to be, no matter how you carefully change the names of all the gods, cities, and emperors. When someone asks you about your fantasy counterpart culture, say "They're basically Egyptians." "They're basically Sumerians." No point in walking them to that point by explaining them in-depth for 15 minutes before your player clues in.

[goto124]

Running off the 'use non-human species' line:

A mostly monogamous, almost communist society lead by whoever happens to do something influential at the moment, that is mostly male and open to homosexual relationships (pairing up is encouraged strongly, regardless of the genders of those involved). Child rearing is highly emphasized, as are stones (used for building homes). Could work well for dwarves, I'd say.

🐧🐧 If I'm not wrong, male penguins typically set up nest sites (homes), then attempt to attract the females. Funnily enough, that website also states that "mate selection is up to the female, and it is the females that compete for the males".

I was thinking about how the males and females take turns to take care of the children (although that may be due to how the children are fed, which requires the adult to be fed first).

Also:

Members of the society have a language that involves honking and squawking sounds.

They are rather curious, especially the children.

Males and females are virtually indistinguishable from each other.

Both adults and children must be absurdly cute

[Honest Tiefling]

Males and females are virtually indistinguishable from each other.

Mammals tend not to have this problem, due to the presence (or lack thereof) of dangly bits.

I really cannot advise a culture based on vomiting. I don't care how common it is in nature, I have limits. Therefore, DON'T make a culture on vomiting unless you are certain all of your players can handle it.

Also, that's like, several different species there! Pick one! One!

[Aedilred]

I think a lot of the issues which apply to counterpart cultures apply to everything else as well. Counterparts done well will broadly follow the same rules as variant races done well. But to address things specifically:

DO consider the specific history, geography and politics of the region in which you're placing your culture. This goes both ways: in a world that's partially defined it can help you identify the best place to put a culture you have in mind, or it can help you decide what culture will fit best in a given space. This applies to things like linguistics and nomenclature as well as culture more generally: countries near each other will tend to use related languages.

DO recognise interrelationships with neighbours and how cross-pollination of cultures will have worked. Particularly when it comes to things like the military: are the two at a roughly similar stage of development? If not why not, and why hasn't one conquered the other by now if so?

DO do some research.

DO mix and match elements from real-world cultures judiciously.

DON'T mix and match elements from real-world cultures recklessly or without thinking about how they will interact with each other.

DON'T just lift lazily from some cool or half-remembered pop cultural source, at least without researching how things actually worked first.

DON'T assume that everyone in your counterpart culture shares modern sensibilities unless you've lifted a modern culture or made adjustments to account for them. If they did, their culture probably wouldn't look like that.