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  1. - Top - End - #61
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Warcaster Feat tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Icewraith View Post
    2h and weapon + shield are already in theory balanced with each other on the bigger damage die/more AC axis, so IMO both or neither should be casting spells and making opportunity attacks in the same round.
    This is exactly what I'm saying, unless you take a feat neither provide you the ability to both cast spell ans make a weapon attack as an OA.

    Using a versatile weapon, and no shield or another weapon, thus let you have a free hand, to cast a spell, and make a weapon attack one-handed as an OA.

  2. - Top - End - #62
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    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: Warcaster Feat tax

    A Paladin or Cleric with a weapon in one hand and a shield in the other can cast every spell spell that has a V, S and M component (but lacks a costly componenent) without the need for warcaster.

    Warcaster is a wasted feat for them (barring the advantage on con saves and the reaction attack). They can already do what the feat grants unless they are two weapon fighting.

    Shields (with a holy symbol on them) are spell foci for Clerics and Paladins. They can use a hand that holds a spell foci as the hand that does the Somatic components. They dont need warcaster.

    Everyone else is in a bit of a pickle. Unless you hold an spell foci in an least one hand (a staff will usually do; bards need an instrument) then you need at least one hand free to cast.

    So you can cast just fine in the following circusmtances:

    • When holding a single one handed weapon, a single verstile weapon or even a single 2H weapon and leaving the other hand free (as per the errata you oly need two hands to wield a 2 H weapon, not to hold it), you can cast any V, S and M spell in the game with no need for Warcaster.
    • When holding 2 x one handed or versatile weapons, or a single one handed or verstile weapon and a shield (and thus with no free hands), you can only cast V, S and M spells if you are a Paladin or Cleric and at least one of the things you hold is a shield with your holy symbol scribed on it, OR you are any other class, have the warcaster feat, and spell lacks a M component OR you use your object interaction to drop or sheathe a weapon first.


    The feat is a tax for valor bards really. They need either a hand free OR to be holding a lute in the other hand.
    Last edited by Malifice; 2015-11-02 at 08:58 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #63
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Warcaster Feat tax

    Any caster, using any kind of weapons, could sheathe their weapon then cast, or cast then draw their weapon and not have any problems casting any of their spells. They're even ready for OAs half the time.

    It does not break any rule to both sheathe and draw, or draw and sheathe, a weapon on your turn. It's still only interacting with one object. It'll probably run into DM limits at some point when a fighter wants to draw and sheathe their katana between every one of their 8 attacks during an action surge, but that's the DM's discretion and not hard RAW.

    It's also probably legal to just drop the inconvenient weapon for free and then pick it up. Dropping what you're holding isn't listed as any kind of action anywhere, but it is done automatically when a PC is KO'd.

    None of this is available when it is not your turn. Since Warcaster wants to allow the PC to cast a spell as a reaction, it has to include an ability for the PC to cast more spells with their hands full. That is all. Anything else is just reading too much into it.

  4. - Top - End - #64
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Warcaster Feat tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Zalabim View Post
    It does not break any rule to both sheathe and draw, or draw and sheathe, a weapon on your turn. It's still only interacting with one object.
    It allows you to draw or sheathe a weapon, not draw and sheathe or sheathe and draw. Allowing both is bending the RAW.

    By that same logic you could draw & sheathe the weapon unlimited times, or open and close a door unlimited times, or drop an axe and pick it up unlimited times.


    Though you do make a point: Players can simply sheathe their weapon. That's livable, but the same should be true for 2 handed if that's the case: 2 handed weapons can't OA if you cast a S spell.

  5. - Top - End - #65
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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: Warcaster Feat tax

    Quote Originally Posted by bid View Post
    See p 190 Other activity on your turn, "open door" and "draw your weapon" are instances of your one object interaction.
    In general yes, but specifically in this case it is also freely included as part of the action. Both can be true, they are not mutually exclusive things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malifice
    Shields (with a holy symbol on them) are spell foci for Clerics and Paladins. They can use a hand that holds a spell foci as the hand that does the Somatic components. They dont need warcaster.
    No Malifice, the rule is that if you have a free hand you can use it for both somatic and focus/components. If you don't have a free hand you're still unable to do the somatic bits absent war caster.
    Last edited by Vogonjeltz; 2015-11-03 at 07:27 AM.

  6. - Top - End - #66
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Warcaster Feat tax

    Given how many issues have come from Warcaster, how to interpret it, and this whole thing about shields as spellcasting foci working sometimes only (with material components), I think the Warcaster feat is a problem, although not a feat tax. I don't think it really prevents characters from functioning properly. There are spells that have only verbal components. Most Smite spells, some healing spells, etc. It would just have been easier if you could never perform somatic components while carrying a shield and a weapon. Or if you could always do it, by purchasing a shield that works as a spellcasting focus.

    Or something like that.

  7. - Top - End - #67
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Warcaster Feat tax

    lol Engrave the holly symbol on the handle of the shield then.

  8. - Top - End - #68
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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: Warcaster Feat tax

    I thought that this was going to be nice concise summary...but it seemed to miss the mark just a bit

    Quote Originally Posted by Malifice View Post
    A Paladin or Cleric with a weapon in one hand and a shield in the other can cast every spell spell that has a V, S and M component (but lacks a costly componenent) without the need for warcaster. They can also cast VM spells. The only spells that cant be cast are the ones that are VS which would require either a free hand or the warcaster feat.

    Warcaster is a wasted feat for them (barring the advantage on con saves and the reaction attack) . They can already do what the feat grants unless they are two weapon fighting or they wish to cast VS spells.

    Shields (with a holy symbol on them) are spell foci for Clerics and Paladins. They can use a hand that holds a spell foci as the hand that does the Somatic components. They dont need warcaster.

    Everyone else is in a bit of a pickle. Unless you hold an spell foci in an least one hand (a staff will usually do; bards need an instrument) then you need at least one hand free to cast.

    So you can cast just fine in the following circumstances:

    • When holding a single one handed weapon, a single versatile weapon or even a single 2H weapon and leaving the other hand free (as per the errata you only need two hands to wield a 2 H weapon, not to hold it), you can cast any V, S and M spell in the game with no need for Warcaster.
    • When holding 2 x one handed or versatile weapons, or a single one handed or versatile weapon and a shield (and thus with no free hands), you can only cast V, S and M spells if you are a Paladin or Cleric and at least one of the things you hold is a shield with your holy symbol scribed on it, OR you are any other class, have the warcaster feat, and spell lacks a M component OR you use your object interaction to drop or sheathe a weapon first.


    The feat is a tax for valor bards really. They need either a hand free OR to be holding a lute in the other hand.
    Now I feel that if your shield hand can do S when the shield is a focus, it can do S when it's not being used as a focus, but that's not RAW.

  9. - Top - End - #69
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    Default Re: Warcaster Feat tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Vogonjeltz View Post
    In general yes, but specifically in this case it is also freely included as part of the action. Both can be true, they are not mutually exclusive things.
    You've confused what that sentence is. It is not permission to always make a specific object interaction (drawing a weapon) as free with a specific action (attacking).

    It is an example of something that is a free object interaction (drawing a weapon while attacking), followed by the requirement for the Use an Object action, including for a second (not free) object interaction. If you've already taken a free object interaction, then that section is specifically telling you that you *don't* get to draw a weapon with your attack for free, even though it normally would be free. You've got it back to front.
    Last edited by Tanarii; 2015-11-03 at 03:44 PM.

  10. - Top - End - #70
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    BarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: Warcaster Feat tax

    I'd like to point out:

    Quote Originally Posted by Player’s Handbook, “Holy Symbol”, page 151:
    Holy Symbol. A holy symbol is a representation of a god or pantheon. It might be an amulet depicting a symbol representing a deity, the same symbol carefully engraved or inlaid as an emblem on a shield, or a tiny box holding a fragment of a sacred relic. Appendix B lists the symbols commonly associated with many gods in the multi-verse. A cleric or paladin can use a holy symbol as a spellcasting focus, as described in chapter 10. To use the symbol in this way, the caster must hold it in hand, wear it visibly, or bear it on a shield.
    So the whole argument about holding the focus vs shield is moot since the player has the viable option of simply wearing it, no?

    I know that in my Encounters game my Paladin has been wearing Trinket #87 around her neck with zero problems from the DM (once I pointed out this paragraph).

  11. - Top - End - #71
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    Default Re: Warcaster Feat tax

    You missed the point. Wearing a Holy Symbol has no affect on the free hand for Somatic Components requirement. It still has to be held in a Hand (such as by etching it on a shield) to cover the S requirements. And even then it only covers the S requirement when the spell also has M components, by a strict reading.

    Edit: Encounters DMs ignore the component restrictions for casters all the time IMx.
    Last edited by Tanarii; 2015-11-03 at 04:15 PM.

  12. - Top - End - #72
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    BarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: Warcaster Feat tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    You missed the point. Wearing a Holy Symbol has no affect on the free hand for Somatic Components requirement. It still has to be held in a Hand (such as by etching it on a shield) to cover the S requirements. And even then it only covers the S requirement when the spell also has M components, by a strict reading.

    Edit: Encounters DMs ignore the component restrictions for casters all the time IMx.
    I'm afraid you're co-mingling two different aspects of this conversation.

    Wearing a holy symbol visibly satisfies the M spell component (for non-consumed, non-GP materials). That was the quoted text in my last post (specifically the last two sentences), in an effort to show that the whole "holy symbol on shield" discussion is irrelevant.

    However wearing a holy symbol does not satisfy the S spell component if both of your hands are full (sword and board, TWF, etc.). That's where War Caster comes into play.

  13. - Top - End - #73
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    Default Re: Warcaster Feat tax

    Quote Originally Posted by E’Tallitnics View Post
    Wearing a holy symbol visibly satisfies the M spell component (for non-consumed, non-GP materials). That was the quoted text in my last post (specifically the last two sentences), in an effort to show that the whole "holy symbol on shield" discussion is irrelevant.

    However wearing a holy symbol does not satisfy the S spell component if both of your hands are full (sword and board, TWF, etc.). That's where War Caster comes into play.
    That's what I thought at first when I started the thread. But it appears etching it on your shield counts as "holding it in your hand" for covering S components as well as M. So it turns out the "holy symbol on shield" discussion is in fact completely relevant ... it enables a Cleric/Paladin using a weapon/shield combo to cast V/S/M & S/M component spells (but not V/S or S only spells) without Warcaster.

    If you just wear the Holy Symbol, you can't cast S spells at all with weapon/shield without warcaster. So you're stuck with V & V/M spells only.

    Basically it boils down to
    No Holy Symbol and Weapon/Shield: V spells only.
    Holy Symbol (worn) and Weapon/Shield: V & V/M spells. No S spells.
    Holy Symbol (shield) and Weapon/Shield: V, V/M, V/S/M, S/M spells. No V/S or S-only spells.
    Warcaster & Weapon/Shield: V & V/S spells. No M spells.
    Holy Symbol (any), Warcaster, Weapon/Shield: All spells.
    Last edited by Tanarii; 2015-11-03 at 05:19 PM.

  14. - Top - End - #74
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Warcaster Feat tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    However, I can see the designers making that a balance point: spell-casters, even melee ones, are intended to get a shield bonus or an opportunity attack. Not both.
    It certainly sounds like enough mental gymnastics are necessary to view that as sound reasoning for the designers to have come up with it, yeah.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keld Denar View Post
    +3 Girlfriend is totally unoptimized. You are better off with a +1 Keen Witty girlfriend and then appling Greater Magic Make-up to increase her enhancement bonus.
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  15. - Top - End - #75
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    Default Re: Warcaster Feat tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Coidzor View Post
    It certainly sounds like enough mental gymnastics are necessary to view that as sound reasoning for the designers to have come up with it, yeah.
    I'm really good at mental gymnastics. And arguing myself in circles. ;)

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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Warcaster Feat tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    I'm really good at mental gymnastics. And arguing myself in circles. ;)
    Sounds like you have all the qualifications necessary to be a professional RPG designer, then.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keld Denar View Post
    +3 Girlfriend is totally unoptimized. You are better off with a +1 Keen Witty girlfriend and then appling Greater Magic Make-up to increase her enhancement bonus.
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  17. - Top - End - #77
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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: Warcaster Feat tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii
    You've confused what that sentence is. It is not permission to always make a specific object interaction (drawing a weapon) as free with a specific action (attacking).

    It is an example of something that is a free object interaction (drawing a weapon while attacking), followed by the requirement for the Use an Object action, including for a second (not free) object interaction. If you've already taken a free object interaction, then that section is specifically telling you that you *don't* get to draw a weapon with your attack for free, even though it normally would be free. You've got it back to front.
    Hmm, so I have my mistake (...I don't think any of this actually makes a difference though.
    The character would still be able to draw and attack the turn after they sheathed and cast a spell.

    All Warcaster does for this is allow the Caster to keep their blade in hand instead of forcing them to stow it for a round.

  18. - Top - End - #78
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Warcaster Feat tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Vogonjeltz View Post
    All Warcaster does for this is allow the Caster to keep their blade in hand instead of forcing them to stow it for a round.
    Agreed that the default case isn't so bad. The problem is that two handed and some shield wielders are exempt from it by default.

  19. - Top - End - #79
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    Default Re: Warcaster Feat tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Vogonjeltz View Post
    The character would still be able to draw and attack the turn after they sheathed and cast a spell.

    All Warcaster does for this is allow the Caster to keep their blade in hand instead of forcing them to stow it for a round.
    Which gives them a OA with the weapon. In some cases that's no small thing.

    Plus as Kryx points out, it's kind of silly to punish TWF and B&S but not 2H. I'm okay with the Arcane/Divine divide, because Tradition (which may or may not actually exist per debate upthread), but it's still silly that Divine is okay with Shield & Weapon, but not 2H/TWF, and not if there's an S component but not a M component. It's all needlessly complicated.

    It'd make far more sense to make just set up a simple and universal rule: If you cast a S or M spell, you can't use a weapon for OAs that round. Warcaster negates this restriction. If you like the Arcane/Divine divide, Divine also negates this restriction. Edit: This makes Warcaster help with M spells, not just S spells, so probably add the caveat: Warcaster negates this restriction, provided you have an appropriate focus or component pouch on your person.
    Last edited by Tanarii; 2015-11-03 at 06:50 PM.

  20. - Top - End - #80
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    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: Warcaster Feat tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Vogonjeltz View Post
    No Malifice, the rule is that if you have a free hand you can use it for both somatic and focus/components.

    If you don't have a free hand you're still unable to do the somatic bits absent war caster.
    The hand that holds a material focus can also do the somatic components for a spell.

    Re shield and weapon:

    A class with a divine focus as its focus (Paladin and Cleric) can hold a weapon in one hand and a shield (with holy symbol emblazoned on it) in the other and vast a (V, S, M) spell just fine without warcaster.

    The holy symbol/ shield hand performs the somatic and material components.

    The only restriction is when the spell itself requires a specific costly material component, in which case you need a hand free to interact with that specific material component.

    That is RAW and RAI.

    WHAT’S THE AMOUNT OF INTERACTION NEEDED TO USE A SPELLCASTING FOCUS? DOES IT HAVE TO BE INCLUDED IN THE SOMATIC COMPONENT?

    If a spell has a material component, you need to handle that component when you cast the spell (see page 203 in the Player’s Handbook). The same rule applies if you’re using a spellcasting focus as the material component.

    If a spell has a somatic component, you can use the hand that performs the somatic component to also handle the material component. For example, a wizard who uses an orb as a spellcasting focus could hold a quarterstaff in one hand and the orb in the other, and he could cast lightning bolt by using the orb as the spell’s material component and the orb hand to perform the spell’s somatic component.

    Another example: a cleric’s holy symbol is emblazoned on her shield. She likes to wade into melee combat with a mace in one hand and a shield in the other. She uses the holy symbol as her spellcasting focus, so she needs to have the shield in hand when she casts a cleric spell that has a material component. If the spell, such as aid, also has a somatic component, she can perform that component with the shield hand and keep holding the mace in the other.
    https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/fea...s-spellcasting

    If you are a cleric or paladin, and one hand holds a weapon and the other holds a shield that has your holy symbol on it, you do not need warcaster and can cast all your spells (barring spells with specific costly material components that your shield cannot replace) just fine.

    Every other casting class needs warcaster when using a shield and a weapon at the same time (unless that weapon is also a focus - such an EK or Wizard using a shield and staff, or sword and staff)

    Re: Single 2H, Versatile or 1 H weapon:

    Every single spellcaster can cast holding a 2H weapon just fine.

    As per the errata, a 2H weapon only needs two hands when you attack with it. Otherwise you can hold it in one hand just fine:

    Two-Handed (p. 147). This property is relevant only when you attack with the weapon, not when you simply hold it.
    http://media.wizards.com/2015/downlo.../Errata_PH.pdf

    So an Eldritch Knight can cast (V,S,M) spells while weilding a 2H weapon (barring in the middle of an attack action or during an opportunity attack with such a weapon). He can also do the same wielding a single one handed or versatile weapon.

    Re: Two weapon fighting

    Clerics and Paladins need warcaster to cast when TWF, as do Bards. Alternatively they can use thier free object interaction to sheathe a weapon.

    Arcane focus classes (Wizard, Sorcerer, EK etc) can go all Gandalf and fight TWF with staff + weapon and cast just fine (unless the M component has a GP value). If they use two swords (for example) they are in the same boat as Clerics and Paladins.

    Bards cop it the worst. They need a free hand to hold their bardic focus (a muscial instrument) or to use M components. They're the main class that needs warcaster as a feat tax when they want to TWF or use a shield.

    All the other classes barring the Bard get an exception (Arcane focus classes can staff + sword, Clerics and Paladins can sword + shield, all classes barring the Bard can staff + shield). If your Bard wants to TWF in any form, it needs warcaster (or to blow its free object interaction every round).

    Which is thematically pretty crappy for the Bards, but hey.

  21. - Top - End - #81
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    Default Re: Warcaster Feat tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Malifice View Post
    A class with a divine focus as its focus (Paladin and Cleric) can hold a weapon in one hand and a shield (with holy symbol emblazoned on it) in the other and vast a (V, S, M) spell just fine without warcaster.

    https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/fea...s-spellcasting

    If you are a cleric or paladin, and one hand holds a weapon and the other holds a shield that has your holy symbol on it, you do not need warcaster and can cast all your spells (barring spells with specific costly material components that your shield cannot replace) just fine.
    you probably should have read the very next paragraph after the aid paragraph, because it shows you are wrong. A Cleric or Paladin casting a Spell with a Somatic Component and *not* a material component cannot do so while using a Holy Symbol emblazoned shield:
    "If the same cleric casts cure wounds, she needs to put the mace or the shield away, because that spell doesn’t have a material component but does have a somatic component. She’s going to need a free hand to make the spell’s gestures. If she had the War Caster feat, she could ignore this restriction."

    Edit: I think that's stupid, but it matches how the PhB is worded so I'm not surprised.
    Last edited by Tanarii; 2015-11-03 at 09:44 PM.

  22. - Top - End - #82
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    Griffon

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    Default Re: Warcaster Feat tax

    Quote Originally Posted by CNagy View Post
    Wearing a shield as an Eldritch Knight is an opportunity cost. The protective reaction spells have somatic components (because you're dealing with the Wizard's spell list, not exactly made with a Fighter in mind.) Thing is, there really is zero reason to be an Eldritch Knight using a one-handed weapon without a shield. But I'd make a tiny tweak to the class rather than change War Caster: just make an Eldritch Knight's bonded weapon count as an arcane focus for him. That puts him on par with other spellcasters: V and VSM can be done while both hands are occupied by a shield and something that doubles as a weapon, but VS spells require putting the focus down (or rather, dropping it and either picking it up next turn or summoning it back to hand with a bonus action.)
    And by not making it an option out of the box, it lets/makes the "Sword in one hand, spell in the other" Eldritch Knight a functional choice. Go 2-hander if STR, or Rapier+Open Hand if Dex.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malifice View Post

    Bards cop it the worst. They need a free hand to hold their bardic focus (a muscial instrument) or to use M components. They're the main class that needs warcaster as a feat tax when they want to TWF or use a shield.

    ...

    Which is thematically pretty crappy for the Bards, but hey.
    Umm... Kazoos?
    Last edited by Hawkstar; 2015-11-03 at 09:43 PM.

  23. - Top - End - #83
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    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: Warcaster Feat tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    you probably should have read the very next paragraph after the aid paragraph, because it shows you are wrong. A Cleric or Paladin casting a Spell with a Somatic Component and *not* a material component cannot do so while using a Holy Symbol emblazoned shield:
    "If the same cleric casts cure wounds, she needs to put the mace or the shield away, because that spell doesn’t have a material component but does have a somatic component. She’s going to need a free hand to make the spell’s gestures. If she had the War Caster feat, she could ignore this restriction."
    Agree. A sword and board Cleric/ Paladin can cast:

    V
    V, M (divine focus)
    V, S, M (divine focus)
    S, M (divine focus)

    With sword and shield in hand, and no need for warcaster.

    They cant cast:

    S
    V, S
    S, M (costly material component)
    V, S, M (costly material component)
    V, M (costly material component)

    With sword and shield in hand regardless of if they have warcaster or not.

    You only need warcaster (barring it's other benefits) on a cleric/ paladin if you want to 2WF and cant be bothered putting a weapon away to cast.

  24. - Top - End - #84
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    Default Re: Warcaster Feat tax

    For sure. As I said up a few posts, the real cost of citing without War Caster (for those who need it to cast with hands full) generally turns out to be casting a spell means you can't take Opportunity Attacks that round.

    Although now that I think about it, the other circumstance is Bonus Action spells you want to use with attacks, although I'm fairly sure they're mostly V only, other than quickened spells. Plus Valor Bards and Eldritch Knights that want to use their cast & attack action class features.

    I know there's a list of bonus action spells floating around somewhere I'm gong to check them out and see how heavy they are on Non-V-only spells.

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    Default Re: Warcaster Feat tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    For sure. As I said up a few posts, the real cost of citing without War Caster (for those who need it to cast with hands full) generally turns out to be casting a spell means you can't take Opportunity Attacks that round.
    Only for dudes that put their weapon away.

    Greatsword using EK's can make opportunity attacks after casting just fine. They cant cast while attacking. After the attack action is resolved though, they're good to go for the rest of the turn (and the round).

  26. - Top - End - #86
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    Default Re: Warcaster Feat tax

    Okay, some of the worst offenders for EKs, Valor Bards, Clerics, Paladins, and Rangers who are most likely to have to worry about having their hands full and trying to cast IMO. I've not included M component Paladin or Cleric spells unles they also include another class. Or V-only component spells for any class.

    Reaction to cast (no time for object interactions):
    Feather Fall [Transmutation] (V,M) (Bard, Sorcerer, Wizard)
    Shield [Abjuration] (V,S) (Sorcerer, Wizard)
    Counterspell [Abjuration] (S) (Sorcerer, Warlock, Wizard)

    Bonus action to cast (can be used same round as a weapon attack):
    Divine Favor [Evocation] (V,S; Concentration) (Paladin)
    Expeditious Retreat [Transmutation] (V,S; Concentration) (Sorcerer, Warlock, Wizard)
    Magic Weapon [Transmutation] (V,S; Concentration) (Paladin, Wizard)
    Spiritual Weapon [Evocation] (V,S) (Cleric)
    Grasping Vine [Conjuration] (V,S; Concentration) (Druid, Ranger)

    Quote Originally Posted by Malifice View Post
    Only for dudes that put their weapon away.

    Greatsword using EK's can make opportunity attacks after casting just fine. They cant cast while attacking. After the attack action is resolved though, they're good to go for the rest of the turn (and the round).
    Thats why I said for those who need it to cast with their hands full. Two handed weapon users don't have their hands full. Holy Symbol users casting M-Component, don't need it to cast with their hands full.

    Edit: to be clear, 2h weapon users don't have their hands full except when they are attacking as you said.
    Last edited by Tanarii; 2015-11-03 at 10:08 PM.

  27. - Top - End - #87
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    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: Warcaster Feat tax

    Components are a horribly complicated system that adds nothing to the game, and warcaster just complicates it more.

    Really wish they either did away with them completely or simplified the whole thing.

  28. - Top - End - #88
    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: Warcaster Feat tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Malifice View Post
    Components are a horribly complicated system that adds nothing to the game, and warcaster just complicates it more.

    Really wish they either did away with them completely or simplified the whole thing.
    Adds nothing? Some of us enjoy games where RP considerations like "will other people know if I'm casting Friends in public?" and "what spells can I cast while I'm handcuffed?" actually come into play. To say nothing of the purely tactical considerations that come from knowing what spells can be cast while Silenced.

    If the "Components" listing for every spell were deleted from the PHB, and DMs had to make it up on their own, the game would be the poorer for it.
    Purple text = personal judgment which I don't expect you necessarily to share. YMMV.

    Everything on the Internet is opinion but purple text is my way of highlighting that I am not interested in persuading you to share mine.

    This is the Most Important Video You've Never Seen About 5E Design. 5E designers Mike Mearls and Rodney Thompson tell you how game design was done, how classes were balanced against each other, etc.

  29. - Top - End - #89
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    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: Warcaster Feat tax

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Adds nothing? Some of us enjoy games where RP considerations like "will other people know if I'm casting Friends in public?" and "what spells can I cast while I'm handcuffed?" actually come into play. To say nothing of the purely tactical considerations that come from knowing what spells can be cast while Silenced.

    If the "Components" listing for every spell were deleted from the PHB, and DMs had to make it up on their own, the game would be the poorer for it.
    Yeah. It adds nothing having fiddly different components for hundreds of different spells that interact differently for each class. Its a chore to look it up all the time.

    A rule as elegant as: 'To cast a spell you must be able to speak. In addition, you must have at least one hand free. A creature with the warcaster feat ignores this last restriction.' would suffice.

  30. - Top - End - #90
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    Default Re: Warcaster Feat tax

    I'd prefer a little more finesse than that. Your method would require Paladin/Cleric spells to be reworked a lot if they want to use Weapon & Shield, and still give two handed weapons an advantage. As well as leaving room for confusion on if a two-handed weapon gives a 'free hand' for those who don't parse the rules or look up online clarifications.

    I'd prefer: To cast a spell you must be able to speak. If you cast Arcane spells, you also cannot be using two weapons, a weapon and shield, or a two handed weapon, unless you have the Warcaster Feat. As an Arcane Caster you may choose to sheath your weapon on your turn with your one free object interaction, before casting any spells.

    That buffs Divine casters, but hurts certain Arcane GISH. But it's simpler. Or at least clearer. It also removes the need for non-magical spellcasting focus.
    Last edited by Tanarii; 2015-11-04 at 12:01 AM.

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