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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Oct 2014

    Default Argument with my DM.

    Hello all, well as you've seen from my title my DM and i have had an argument regarding my character, I'm currently running a knife master two weapon fighting rogue thats set up to do feints so that way i don't have to always rely on positioning to get off sneak attacks. DM and i were striking up a casual conversation but then we got on the subject of did, he complained that my rogue was "Strong" and that he didn't understand how feint works with sneak attack and such. Which i showed him where and how i was using feint and sneak attack together due to feats and other thing.

    I'm some what irritated over the matter because this has been our 5th session and all of a sudden its an issue because another player had brought it up and now the DM is up my ass about everything on my character page, even going so far as to take away my traits because and i quote "you have to earn traits, and your initiative is too high anyways" (Paragon speed). I just wanna know if its just me or would anyone else be a little irritated given the situation.

    Oh and by the way the DM has had over a month before the first session to review my character sheet and everything, and approved it way before our first session.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Kane0's Avatar

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    Default Re: Argument with my DM.

    PF rogue I gather? Unchained version or stock?

    How long has your DM been DMing? Inexperienced DMs often freak out if a player is doing larger than expected damage, especially if its a glass cannon type character thats 'supposed' to be easy to drop or has to work for that damage. Taking away a character's bits and pieces is often the first reaction in an attempt to 'balance' them out again, knee-jerk though it may be.

    Also, how experienced are your fellow players? Your mastery and choices might be overshadowing them, at least in the eyes of the DM. Not that the rogue is OP or anything, but they are good at what they do and if you have maximized that where everyone else has not done the same then you will appear to be OP.

    Have a chat to your DM, get a good feel for where he's coming from. Then you can work out where to go from there.
    Last edited by Kane0; 2015-11-05 at 11:28 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Talion's Avatar

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    Oct 2015

    Default Re: Argument with my DM.

    I can't say it's fair to you, since you've stated that the DM had ample time to review your character sheet prior to game and even approved it. Unless there's something else going on that we don't know about, there isn't any real reason you should be losing anything. Moreover, while it's a useful trick, it's still got a fair amount of limitation. For one, there's monsters that are immune to critical damage. For two, you aren't a caster, much less a full caster, and therefore unable to do a lot of the more absurd things D&D allows players to do.

    However, on the flip side, it is not solely the DM's job to ensure party cohesion. At some point the party should have had time to discuss what their characters were and what they could do. This would also have provided a chance for players whose stat building skills aren't as strong to get a hand in getting to the same relative level of effectiveness as the rest of the party. It would also give everyone a chance to think things over and state if they're comfortable with something or not, or if they need help. While nothing can account for an individual player's in game ingenuity, everyone having a fair chance at being effective enough to not feel left out is important.

    Again, we don't know all the details. For all we know, you might be the least effective party member, overall, due to any combination of factors. Or you might be the best, again in any combination of factors. It might be good just to get everyone to sit down and discuss how they feel about their characters in comparison to everyone else's and then go from there. If a couple people need to rework some things, it'd be kinder to the players to bring up the theoretical weaker end than to pull away from those who put the work into their characters.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Oct 2014

    Default Re: Argument with my DM.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    PF rogue I gather? Unchained version or stock?

    How long has your DM been DMing? Inexperienced DMs often freak out if a player is doing larger than expected damage, especially if its a glass cannon type character thats 'supposed' to be easy to drop or has to work for that damage. Taking away a character's bits and pieces is often the first reaction in an attempt to 'balance' them out again, knee-jerk though it may be.

    Also, how experienced are your fellow players? Your mastery and choices might be overshadowing them, at least in the eyes of the DM. Not that the rogue is OP or anything, but they are good at what they do and if you have maximized that where everyone else has not done the same then you will appear to be OP.

    Have a chat to your DM, get a good feel for where he's coming from. Then you can work out where to go from there.
    Firstly i want to say thank you for your feed back and i will try to answer all of your questions as accurately as possible.

    1. I'm using lemmys re-advised Rogue, which was approved by the DM.
    2.His first Campaign.
    3.The other player that mentioned my character has far more experience then I do however it chooses to make "gimmicky" characters that aren't really helpful, our other player is fairly new and is playing a barbarian that does equal damage to me. Except for you know... i have to do sneak-stabs to keep up with him or he blows me out of the water.
    4. I've tried to have conversations with him but i feel as if our more "experienced" player is in his ear so to speak and a lot of what he says isn't really "him" so to speak.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Oct 2014

    Default Re: Argument with my DM.

    Quote Originally Posted by Talion View Post
    I can't say it's fair to you, since you've stated that the DM had ample time to review your character sheet prior to game and even approved it. Unless there's something else going on that we don't know about, there isn't any real reason you should be losing anything. Moreover, while it's a useful trick, it's still got a fair amount of limitation. For one, there's monsters that are immune to critical damage. For two, you aren't a caster, much less a full caster, and therefore unable to do a lot of the more absurd things D&D allows players to do.

    However, on the flip side, it is not solely the DM's job to ensure party cohesion. At some point the party should have had time to discuss what their characters were and what they could do. This would also have provided a chance for players whose stat building skills aren't as strong to get a hand in getting to the same relative level of effectiveness as the rest of the party. It would also give everyone a chance to think things over and state if they're comfortable with something or not, or if they need help. While nothing can account for an individual player's in game ingenuity, everyone having a fair chance at being effective enough to not feel left out is important.

    Again, we don't know all the details. For all we know, you might be the least effective party member, overall, due to any combination of factors. Or you might be the best, again in any combination of factors. It might be good just to get everyone to sit down and discuss how they feel about their characters in comparison to everyone else's and then go from there. If a couple people need to rework some things, it'd be kinder to the players to bring up the theoretical weaker end than to pull away from those who put the work into their characters.
    I agree with you, however i can't escape the feeling that the DM is trying to tear down the work and thought that i put behind my rogue. i mean this is my first Actual Campaign and I've done nothing but read on things i can and can't do for days on end before we even started, so i feel as if the DM should've put in the same effort that i have. I mean i understand that DMing can be and probably is stressful for anyone weather new or a veteran at times but i don't feel as if that's a good enough excuse.

    And as far as combat effectiveness I'm sometimes even with the barbarian, i usually only get off one hit of my sneak attack per round, rarely do both attacks actually hit. and our other guy literally does nothing in comparison, he made a gunslinger mage that is very crit dependant but he didn't take any crit feats so yeah... not very useful IMO. Don't get me wrong i respect the aspect of the character and i love the flavor, but usefulness? Nay.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Titan in the Playground
     
    ElfRangerGuy

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    Default Re: Argument with my DM.

    Quote Originally Posted by xFatalFuryx View Post
    Oh and by the way the DM has had over a month before the first session to review my character sheet and everything, and approved it way before our first session.
    This is the really important bit, right here. If the DM approved the character, then he doesn't have an excuse to not know how it works or what it can do.

    Now, I'm not saying that the DM can't change his mind or make modifications to what he allows at the table, especially if it's a first-time DM who is learning as he goes, but it seems like he didn't go about it very well and you have a right to be upset/annoyed by this. What should really have happened is a discussion between yourself, the DM, and the player who raised concerns about you (or even better, a discussion with the entire group) where all parties get to voice their opinions and then come to a reasonable compromise.
    "Nothing you can't spell will ever work." - Will Rogers

    "What you must learn is that these rules are no different than the rules of a computer system. Some of them can be bent. Others can be broken." - Morpheus, The Matrix

    Quote Originally Posted by Krellen View Post
    Remember, Evil isn't "selfish". It's Evil. "Look out for number one" is a Neutral attitude. Evil looks out for number one while crushing number two.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Oct 2014

    Default Re: Argument with my DM.

    Quote Originally Posted by KillianHawkeye View Post
    This is the really important bit, right here. If the DM approved the character, then he doesn't have an excuse to not know how it works or what it can do.

    Now, I'm not saying that the DM can't change his mind or make modifications to what he allows at the table, especially if it's a first-time DM who is learning as he goes, but it seems like he didn't go about it very well and you have a right to be upset/annoyed by this. What should really have happened is a discussion between yourself, the DM, and the player who raised concerns about you (or even better, a discussion with the entire group) where all parties get to voice their opinions and then come to a reasonable compromise.
    Which happened, i stated the facts above. Both of them got quite and everything is still the same. I'm still out of a trait because again "i didn't earn paragon speed" which isn't a huge issue in all honest, however I'm more so going off of principle at this point. Though to be fair to be a spiteful bastard *admittedly* i took improved initative.
    Last edited by xFatalFuryx; 2015-11-06 at 12:22 AM.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    The Fury's Avatar

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    Feb 2013

    Default Re: Argument with my DM.

    A point that I guess your DM mentioned a couple times is that your character has things that they haven't "earned." I think a constructive question to ask might be, how would you earn these traits? Knowing what criteria your character needs to fulfill is going to be helpful for you, but I think it might be helpful for the DM as well.
    Iop brain.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Comet's Avatar

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    Default Re: Argument with my DM.

    Yeah, your DM messed up. Give him a break, though, and go along with whatever he thinks is best for the whole group.

    Or, if you're convinced that he is incompetent and doesn't deserve your benefit of the doubt, walk away and never come back.
    "What can change the nature of a man?"
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    Guybrush Threepwood avatar by Ceika

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