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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default So You like feats? (PrC)

    This is a PrC in the making. It still needs a lot of work, and some of the aspects of the class have been left blank or ambiguous because they have not been decided yet. Any advice is appreciated, even if its just a "yes I would play it" or "no, it's ridiculous."

    The daoist is based on an ancient Chinese philospher and is designed to provide a melee progression based on "trusting the force" and allowing the universe to guide your actions. The class provides a unique, as far as I know, approach to feats and skills, and often allows a fairly powerful boost in exchange for a temporary loss of character control.


    Hit Die: d8
    Restrictions: Any non lawful. Must have a permanent or long term disability, including level loss or ability score drain. Special benefit for true neutral (see text) lvl 8.
    Skills: 2d4 + intelligence modifier. Class skills:
    Armor/weapon proficiencies: Same as base class


    {table="head"]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|special
    1st|+0|+0|+2|+0|Serendipity, there is a space; disability
    2nd|+1|+0|+3|+0|Bonus Feat
    3rd|+2|+1|+3|+1|Unfixed in the Way, training from forgetting
    4th|+3|+1|+4|+1|Gift of Perspective
    5th|+3|+2|+4|+2|Just another transformation
    6th|+4|+2|+5|+2|Bonus Feat
    7th|+5|+3|+5|+3|Unfixed in the way
    8th|+6|+3|+6|+3|Gift of Perspective
    9th|+6|+4|+6|+4|improved training from forgetting
    10th|+7|+4|+6|+4|Bonus Feat
    [/table]

    Disability: The Daoist’s requisite disability becomes permanent, if not already, and can not be healed or suppressed even by spells such as wish or miracle. If the disability is not normally noticable it manifests physically in some way at the DMs descretion (e.g. negative levels might cause the character to appear jaundiced, dex reductions might cause the character to shake)

    Serendipity: This ability is of the same power level as prestidigitation and is a free action. It allows the outcome of any trivial event to be in the daoists favor, no matter how unlikely, so long as it is possible. Examples might include correctly predicting the result of 50 coin flips in a row, shuffling a mixed deck back into perfect order, or making a trick shot, out of combat, with an untrained weapon. The Daoist can use this ability once per day per level of Daoist. With a bonus use per day if they are true neutral.

    Unfixed in the Way: Upon reaching levels 3 and 7, The Daoist is permitted to remove one feat from their permanent feat list and select another feat to replace it. At the discretion of the Daoist, he may choose to have two feats removed at random from his list and gain 3 feats in replacement. The removed may not be rechosen. If a prerequisite feat is removed, any feat that depends on it cannot be used until that feat is regained.

    Gift of perspective: The Daoist gains a feat however they are not limited in their selection by any level, skill, proficiency, racial or attribute requirement that would otherwise prevent them from taking the feat. This does not apply to epic feats, class specific feats, metamagic feats, and it does not allow a daoist to take a feat that requires another feat as a prerequisite, unless the daoist meets that prerequisite.

    Training from forgetting: beginning at level 3 the daoist’s gains the ability to prepare feats as a cleric does spells. To gain this benefit the daoist must spend at least one hour in meditation or mindless activity (fishing, play). On a day where they are able to meditate the daoist may “prepare” one feat for every 3 levels of daoist they possess and are considered to have access to that feat for one day. True neutral daoists gain access to an additional feat per day at level 6.

    Improved Training from forgetting: The daoist gains an additional “virtual” feat, which can be used to meet the prerequisite for another feat they wish to prepare. the daoist does not gain any benefit that would normally be derived from that virtual feat.

    Just another transformation: One per day per two levels, as a free action, the Daoist may choose to emphasize their disability. For one minute any character attempting to take a hostile action against the daoist must make a will save with a DC equal to 10 + Daoist’s character level + attackers own int bonus. Any character that fails this roll becomes indifferent to the daoist and does not consider them to be a threat. This effect lasts for one day or until the daoist takes a hostile action against that character or their allies. While indifferent the character will not voluntarily take any additional hostile action against the daoist. That character also does not consider the daoist as “in combat” for the purposes of being flanked or threatened.

    There is a space: Starting at level one the Daoist is able to tap into this ability at will a number of time a day equal to their daoist level. When used out of combat the ability provides one of the following effects:

    {table="head"]effect
    1. Attempt any non- knowledge skill check, even if it would usually require advanced training or special tools.

    2. Add their wisdom modifier to their next skill check on top of any other bonuses.

    3. Take a 10 when it would otherwise not be permitted or take a 20 in the amount of time it would normally require to take a 10.

    4. Any effect as per serendipity (above) but including non-trivial events (pulling a royal straight in a life or death card game) this costs one use of serendipity as well as of this ability, and in addition to story effects can be used to gain a +10 bonus to any non-INT based skill check.
    [/table]


    There is a space can also be used in combat. A player chooses a bonus from the following chart and recieves that bonus for a number of rounds equal to his daoist level. for 1d4 rounds after that effect, role a d6 each round to determine the effect on the daoist at random.

    {table="head"]Roll|Effect
    1|Add wisdom modifier to one roll of the player’s choice
    2|Take a 10 on one roll, even if otherwise not permitted; player can take no other action that round
    3|Gain a bonus to dodge equal to their number of daoist levels, but their base attack bonus is reduced by the same amount
    4|Threaten a critical with next successful hit (only applies to damage multiplier, not any special effects that proc on critical strikes)
    5|Able to escape from any movement impeding effect, as per Freedom of motion. Can not attack that round
    6|Player takes no meaningful action, The Universe is pushing them in another direction (If above level five, just another transformation automatically activates, if the daoist has uses left that day)
    [/table]
    Last edited by Poppatomus; 2007-06-02 at 08:09 PM. Reason: ch-, ch-, ch-, ch-, changes

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Retired Mod in the Playground Retired Moderator
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    Default Re: The Daoist - take two

    Five questions (three, sir!) ... three questions:

    1: Why a good Reflex and not a good Will save? It seems to me that being able to let go of so much and roll with the punches, as they say, would make it difficult, not easy to force the Daoist's mind.

    2: Unfixed in the Way: How often can the Daoist do this? Being able to trade feats around is a pretty significatn benefit, there ought to be some kind of restriction (can only do it at level up, requires meditation/play, etc.).

    3: 1d8 skill points? An... odd choice to be sure. I've never seen a precedent of varying skill points per level, so I'm not sure what to think of it. I'd think a flat 8/level would work much better, since, being open-minded people, they'd be apt to absorb a wide variety of skills....

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: The Daoist - take two

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey Watcher View Post
    Five questions (three, sir!) ... three questions:
    poppatomus, to make this class usable, blu... no yellooooooow

    second, thanks for reading the thing, I very much appreciate your input.

    1: Why a good Reflex and not a good Will save? It seems to me that being able to let go of so much and roll with the punches, as they say, would make it difficult, not easy to force the Daoist's mind.
    Just a balance question. Trying not to make the class overpowered, thought that was a place I could trim it without going against the grain of the class too much. Might change it when other class aspects are more formalized.

    2: Unfixed in the Way: How often can the Daoist do this? Being able to trade feats around is a pretty significatn benefit, there ought to be some kind of restriction (can only do it at level up, requires meditation/play, etc.).
    Sorry, I'll change that in the original. It is meant to apply only at level up at those particular levels (3rd and 7th).

    3: 1d8 skill points? An... odd choice to be sure. I've never seen a precedent of varying skill points per level, so I'm not sure what to think of it. I'd think a flat 8/level would work much better, since, being open-minded people, they'd be apt to absorb a wide variety of skills....
    [/quote]

    Good, that's the effect I am going for. I want playing this class to be different than playing other classes. I am going to change it to a d12. that still averages out to slightly better than a 6 per level, with the potential for more or less. This has two motivations: first, crunchy, is that the class has ways to enhance skill rolls already, and I don't want to combine that with a guarentee of the maximum possible points. Second, fluffy, playing this class means giving up something as well as gaining something in a lot of cases, letting the universe decide for you. I thought using a dice roll rather than a set amount would further reinforce this idea and provide a unique hook for the class.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: The Daoist - take two (PrC)

    vanity bump. too ridiculous to wade though I suppose. Will try to clarify/shorten as much as possible in next iteration. maybe post individual abilities seperatly first.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: The Daoist - take two (PrC)

    Clarified some of the language, made it shorter. Looking for a bit more input before overhaul number 2.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: So You like feats? (PrC)

    Bump for new title.

  7. - Top - End - #7
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    Default Re: So You like feats? (PrC)

    Could players enter this PrC as low as second level if they catch Blinding sickness and become blind? Or could taking a flaw at first level let them enter it at first level?
    Quote Originally Posted by starwoof View Post
    Your manly chin makes Jay Leno weep.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: So You like feats? (PrC)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyace View Post
    Could players enter this PrC as low as second level if they catch Blinding sickness and become blind? Or could taking a flaw at first level let them enter it at first level?
    I would see no reason why that shouldn't be the case. Really it seems like a question of power. I don't believeit would be that unbalanced to get this at lower levels, though I had always invisioned it as more of a mid level (8-10) PrC then a low level one. You're giving up alot in terms of BAB as a melee player at that level, and unlike the monk you're not picking up a lot of bonuses to AC or attack (plus you have the disability).

    Still, i don't know. It's partly why I posted it here, to get opinions from more experienced people as to how it power level compares and should best be limited. If it is overpowered do you think it would be better to add a level requirement, weaken the class, or turn it into a 20 level class?

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Kobold

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    Default Re: So You like feats? (PrC)

    I love this prestige class.

    Few questiosn about it though, why non-lawful? Although daoism appears to be quite chaotic when compared to confucianism, it also seems to have many lawful aspects in it's own right... going with the natural flow of the universe.

    Also many daoist ideas lead to some very lawful institutions and concepts such as legalism...which also needs it's own prestige class.

    I think in general eastern philosophy doesn't fit well with the alignment system, however if it fits anything it probably fits any neutral best.

    The feat switching is a powerful mechanic, but also one that I really like, it would be interesting to see it used in combination with the various feats that give you martial adept techniques, Incarnum, Psionic Feats, Heritige Feats, Dragonmarked feats and shifter feats.

    The one for three exchange seems to be a little overpowered from Unfixed in the way, however the first mechanic has been done before in the reforged.

    I might try throwing together a daoist character and see just what sort of holes, and what they can accomplish.

    Have you had any similar ideas for a Confucist, Legalist, or Mencian?

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: So You like feats? (PrC)

    Quote Originally Posted by The Gilded Duke View Post
    I love this prestige class.

    Few questiosn about it though, why non-lawful? Although daoism appears to be quite chaotic when compared to confucianism, it also seems to have many lawful aspects in it's own right... going with the natural flow of the universe.

    Also many daoist ideas lead to some very lawful institutions and concepts such as legalism...which also needs it's own prestige class.

    I think in general eastern philosophy doesn't fit well with the alignment system, however if it fits anything it probably fits any neutral best.

    The feat switching is a powerful mechanic, but also one that I really like, it would be interesting to see it used in combination with the various feats that give you martial adept techniques, Incarnum, Psionic Feats, Heritige Feats, Dragonmarked feats and shifter feats.

    The one for three exchange seems to be a little overpowered from Unfixed in the way, however the first mechanic has been done before in the reforged.

    I might try throwing together a daoist character and see just what sort of holes, and what they can accomplish.

    Have you had any similar ideas for a Confucist, Legalist, or Mencian?
    Glad to see you liked it. hadn;t thought of doing Confucist, Legalist or Mencian. heck, might be worth it to through Mozi in their too, like the Eastern version of a paladin.

    What little of the flavor text I've thought of explains the bit with non-lawful. The idea is meant to be that though the daoists would obviously take anyone, the lawful just can't quite let themsleves go enough to truly follow the way. (zhuang zi, who's philosophy this is based on, was more anti-lawful than the Dao De Jing)

    Which mechanic has been done in the warforged? might go back to one for two or two for three on unfixed. I'll have to sleep on it (not that I will be sleeping tonight)

    Thanks for the feedback, if you do get a chance to test it, especially in relation to those other feats do tell me what results.

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Kobold

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    Default Re: So You like feats? (PrC)

    The Reforged, in races of Eberron have a capstone ability where you become more natural. I think you loose the composite plating and might even change what type you are. The part that relates though is that you loose all your warforged feats, and can then get new bonus feats equal to the amount of warforged feats you lost.

    Since you are now higher level you can use it to aquire all sorts of feats you couldn't have gotten earlier.

    I don't know much about the Mozi, but woudl be interested to hear more, I'm working on an idea for a character now, trying to break or at the least optimise the class.

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: So You like feats? (PrC)

    Quote Originally Posted by The Gilded Duke View Post
    The Reforged, in races of Eberron have a capstone ability where you become more natural. I think you loose the composite plating and might even change what type you are. The part that relates though is that you loose all your warforged feats, and can then get new bonus feats equal to the amount of warforged feats you lost.

    Since you are now higher level you can use it to aquire all sorts of feats you couldn't have gotten earlier.

    I don't know much about the Mozi, but woudl be interested to hear more, I'm working on an idea for a character now, trying to break or at the least optimise the class.
    Much appreciated again.

    Mozi was an ancient chinese philosopher that western thought would probably consider a wierd amalgamation of religious fundamentalist, communist, and utilitarian.

    Mozi preached that everyone should treat everyone as an absolute equal and love everyone equally. He decried the extravagent waste of the legalists and the confucians, especially when it came to lavish funerals and ceremonies and the requirements that, for instance, sons of dead fathers take two years off to mourn. He thought that money could be better spent on the people's needs. He also strongly believed in the spirit world and was confident that the various tutelary gods and spirits of China needed to be appeased and would punish the deserving and reward the good.

    one of the more interesting things about Mozi was that, as an extension of their maxim to love everyone equally they came to be strongly against war. But rather then protest war or renounce violence Mozi had all his followers become experts in defensive warfare.

    the idea was that there would be so many moists that any city worried about war could hire the moists to defend them and be invulnerable, thus making war silly since no one could win. Much of Mo zi's surviving philosophical work deals with details of defending cities and military training, almost as much as deals with philosophy.

    actually, taht might lend itself pretty well to a class.

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Kobold

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    Default Re: So You like feats? (PrC)

    First off might want to further specify the sort of long term disability, many useful templates such as lycanthropy or being a ghost can be seen as a long term disability.

    Ignoring those, instead using the drain touch of a ghost, doing 1d4 points of ability drain (ghost's choice) is an easy way to enter the prestige class.

    Rolling a 1d4, I rolled a one. Randomly rolling attributes I rolled Dex.
    The character will start out with -1 to dex.

    First Level:
    Silverbrow Human Crusader
    (Dragonblood Subtype, Free Feat, Crusader refresh method)
    Using Dragonscale Husk alternate class feature.
    (Loose Heavy Armor Profeciency, gain 6 +1/3 class level Armor bonus as layer of scales, energy resistance later)

    For Feats:
    Sacred Vow (allows Vow of Poverty)
    Vow of Poverty
    Vow of Non-Violence (From Vow of Poverty)

    Level Two, enter the class.

    Level Three: Feat, Bonus Feat, Exalted Feat
    Exalted Feat: Vow of Peace
    Feat: Wild Talent (Gain 2 PP)
    Bonus Feat: Azure Talent (Gain 1 Essentia)

    Level Four: Totemist
    Vow of Poverty: Touch of Golden Ice
    Level Five: Totemist
    (Three Soulmelds, Totem Chakra, 2 Essentia)

    Level Six: Unfixed in the Way - Giving up Two Feats, Unfixed in the Way
    (Invest Essentia into Azure Talent Prior to leveling up)
    Lost- Vow of Peace
    Lost- Azure Talent

    Bonus Feats:
    Level Six Feat:Multi-Attack
    -Improved Multi-Attack
    -Power Attack
    -Improved Bull Rush
    Vow of Poverty: Vow of Peace

    Level Seven: Gift of Perspective: Dragon Wings
    Level Eight: Vow of Poverty: Fey-Touched
    Level Nine: Bonus Feat: Improved Dragon Wings
    Shock Trooper
    Level Ten: Unfixed in the Way
    Lost: Fey-Touched
    Lost: Multi-Attack
    Bonus Feat:
    -Subduing Strike
    -Leap Attack
    -Improved Sunder
    Vow of Poverty: Fey Touched

    Level 11: Gift of Perspective:
    Rend

    Level 12: Open Lesser Chakra: Hands
    Multi-Attack
    Vow of Poverty: Vow of Chastity
    Level 13: Bonus Feat: Rapidstrike

    -----------------------------
    Vow of Poverty, Multiple Natural Attacks, with Rapidstrike all full-attackable on a charge with leap attack and shock trooper. Capable of Flight.

    Has three extra feats to assign just about anywhere, can pick up Improved Rapidstrike, Large and In Charge and so on. You can also use the extra feats to pick up new martial adept techniques and change them daily.

    Biggest abuse seems to come with Incarnum, allowing you to open up the greater chakras early. Improved Training from Forgetting seems to be what makes it bad, maybe keep the part about the virtual feat but remove the gift of perspective ability?

    Gift of Perspective as just a twice occuring ability is good, more then that, and especially using it multiple times a day to pick your daily feats causes problems.

  14. - Top - End - #14
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    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: So You like feats? (PrC)

    Unfixed in the Way: Upon reaching levels 3 and 7, The Daoist is permitted to remove one feat from their permanent feat list and select another feat to replace it. At the discretion of the Daoist, he may choose to have two feats removed at random from his list and gain 3 feats in replacement. If a prerequisite feat is removed, any feat that depends on it cannot be used until that feat is regained. The same feats can not be chosen to replace those removed.
    Suggestion: Replace "Gain three feats" with: "Gain three feats, but you cannot choose one you've lost"

    That way you take a bigger chance. without it, it's pretty much a free feat and if you want that, then just say gain an extra feat.
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    “I’m sorry, I’ll try to bleed to death more coherently” – Typha-knee (Exiern)

    “After all, Nothing annoys the DM more than a moving target.”

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

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    Default Re: So You like feats? (PrC)

    Just a thought: If you want variable skill points, why not 2d4?
    This gives you and average of 4, but a minimum of 2 (it would suck to only get 1 skill point per level) and a maximum of 8 (no class should get more skills than a skill monkey: the rogue or scout).
    Johannes factotum of the Bard Defense League

    "A witty saying proves nothing." -Voltaire

    "Jack of all trades, master of none, though ofttimes better than master of one."

    The main question that any DM should ask before making a house-rule or exception is, "Is it balanced?"

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: So You like feats? (PrC)

    Let's see if I get what this is about: You have the ability to switch feats, gain the ability to use feats you usually don't have a few times a day, and a bunch of minor tricks? Looks interesting to me. I'd play it in a more light heartedly campaing (ie, one where the DM is not set to kill us)
    Doesn't sound too unbalanced. About the alignment restriction, if he's about balance, shouldn't he need to be partially neutral? I don't see why bar Lawful, but not chaotic (or good or evil).

    Member of the Hinjo fan club. Go Hinjo!
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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: So You like feats? (PrC)

    Thanks again Guilded. made some of the changes you and Bardic suggested, may make more in the future. Beginning to think I need to find a way to limit feat selection somehow, since there are so many random ones out there.

    I also reworded unfixed in the way to make it clearer that if you choose to gain the extra feat you can't reselect the feats you'd lost, that was always the intention of the ability.

    Roderick, The reason chaotic is allowed, and not lawful, is grounded in the philosophy that motivated this endeavour in the first place. unlike say zen buddhism, Zhuang zi's Daoism is very free spirited, in many ways closer to chaotic then to neutral actually. The reason I decided to restrict lawful wasn't because I didn't think the Dao does not exist withing lawful alignments, but because my understanding of the lawful alignment suggests that they wouldn't really be able to give themselves over to the will of the universe as this class does. I do, in a couple of places, give bonuses to true neutral characters that take the class however.

    I to see this as being used in more light hearted, less min/max intensive games. But I still want the class to work as much as possible, not only because sometimes a game may change in character or as an intellectual exercise, but because I think some of the mechanics would themselves be interesting in a more rule-intense setting.

    Thanks again to all of you for your input.

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    Default Re: So You like feats? (PrC)

    I like the class a lot; one question, though.

    "There is a Space" can be used 3/day at 1st level, and you don't get any increased uses until 5th, and then 7th and 10th. This seems like an odd progression, as you get 3 - - - 5 - 7 - - 9 uses as you level up. Maybe I just like symmetrical things, but it seems like it would work better to get the boost to 5/day at 4th level instead of 5th. That means a nice even progression of 3 - - 5 - - 7 - - 9. In fact, it might be altogether easier to allow the player to use it once per day per class level.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: So You like feats? (PrC)

    Good call Kellus, gonna make it continuous rather than at set intervals. Clean up the chart too. Thanks, and glad you like it.

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    Default Re: So You like feats? (PrC)

    Pretty cool... I think I'm gonna try to use this class if ever I get the chance.

  21. - Top - End - #21
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: So You like feats? (PrC)

    Quote Originally Posted by Rnett View Post
    Pretty cool... I think I'm gonna try to use this class if ever I get the chance.
    Please do, and if you have any feedback please post it here.

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    HalfOrcPirate

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    Default Re: So You like feats? (PrC)

    Fairly new to D&D, and with little experience, not much I could say about the experience other than I like the fluff.

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    Default Re: So You like feats? (PrC)

    I am not one for randomness in my own PCs, nor do I generally allow them in my players' PCs (I endorse point-buy and set ¾ max HP/level but sometimes my players want random dice and I force them to stick to that choice, even if they get FUBAR'd). As such I am highly unlikely to ever use or allow the use of this class in my games.

    This is very much a philosophy style than a true prestige class. Have you given thought to modifying the Monk base class and, instead of certain monk abilities substituting these abilities instead? It could be a non-lawful monk. You can even decide that one of the class abilitites of 1st level is that they gain some disability that cannot be eliminated without losing their class abilites.

    Do not forget (as you seem to have for the description of Just another transformation) that if a character no longer meets ALL prerequisites for a prestige class they may NOT continue to advance in that prestige class. You can make note that "If a Daoist no longer possesses a disability, they may not use this class ability."
    The easy I do before breakfast,
    The difficult I do all day long,
    The impossible achieved during the workweek,
    Miracles performed when possible.
    People call me the Fixer,
    and I am here to help you.
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    Fixer's Guide to Neutrality
    Fixer's Fighter Fix
    (Campaign) Characters:
    Searching For... Goldenrod
    Survival... Gelder

  24. - Top - End - #24
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: So You like feats? (PrC)

    Points taken. I myself like the randomness element in these games a great deal. (nothing like coming up with a backstory for a character, then rolling binding random stats before picking their class.) That's part of the reason I created the class.

    I do think it works as a prestige class as much as it works as a mod to the monk. I am torn by whether it would be better as a "base" class, especially given the radical change in play style it imposes on, say, a fighter.

    You're right, I did forget about that limitation of prestige classes. gonna go with your suggesting and change the requirement and the timing of the disability becoming permanent. Gotta think a bit more on whether to make it a base class though.

    EDIT: oh, and thank you very much for giving it a once over.
    Last edited by Poppatomus; 2007-06-01 at 04:00 PM.

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