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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Druid dipping - an addendum

    This guide has moved here. The reason is lack of space after XGtE came out.
    Last edited by hymer; 2018-02-04 at 05:24 AM.
    My D&D 5th ed. Druid Handbook

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    Ogre in the Playground
     
    RangerGuy

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    Default Re: Druid Multiclassing - an addendum (WIP)

    Nice start, and I liked your guide in general.

    You haven't gotten to ranger yet in the OP, but I thought I would share my build.

    I am working towards ranger 5/druid 8/rogue 7. I am trying for a very archery focused ranger, that is a better summoner than a straight ranger. Druids are the best summoners available and fit into the ranger theme very well. One of the reasons I want to focus heavy on summons is to trigger SA damage from the rogue levels (by keeping an animal in melee with my archery targets).

    The idea is to stand in the back, concentrating on a summons and firing arrows into the frontlines.

    I could have done that by going straight ranger but it would mean fewer slots and spells known, and fewer summons available. By going grasslands land circle druid I'll pick up haste and invisibility which I never could have gotten as a straight ranger, and the 7 levels in rogue give me the sneak attack, and cunning action and expertise. I am even considering arcane trickster for the rogue levels to give me a couple extra multiclass caster levels (maybe pick up shield spell and mirror image to help me not lose concentration).

    Now compared to a straight land druid, I'll be a much worse caster, but my archery skills will give me better at will damage than the straight druid.

    I don't really care about the wildshapes, which I intend to use primarily for scouting/exploration and getting into good firing positions for the bow.
    Last edited by tieren; 2015-11-10 at 01:28 PM.

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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Druid Multiclassing - an addendum (WIP)

    Hi guys...thanks for the guide and the multiclassing tips.

    So I'm an old AD&D and 3.5 player just getting back in to the game and familiarizing myself with 5.0. I can't find the cantrip Divine Flame described in the cleric section above

    Divine Flame is strictly a better damage cantrip than anything on the druid list
    I've only got the PHB and SCAG. Can you point me in the direction of the fire domain? Is that a homebrew or something in the DMG?

    Thanks
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    RangerGuy

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    Default Re: Druid Multiclassing - an addendum (WIP)

    Quote Originally Posted by Fishybugs View Post
    Hi guys...thanks for the guide and the multiclassing tips.

    So I'm an old AD&D and 3.5 player just getting back in to the game and familiarizing myself with 5.0. I can't find the cantrip Divine Flame described in the cleric section above



    I've only got the PHB and SCAG. Can you point me in the direction of the fire domain? Is that a homebrew or something in the DMG?

    Thanks
    Pretty sure he meant "sacred flame"

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    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: Druid Multiclassing - an addendum (WIP)

    One level of Monk for Moon Druid is nice, Wis to AC while Wild Shaped is awesome. And it lets them run around without armor and use a quarterstaff for a magical beatdown when needed. A 14 Dex and 16 Wis on a Moon Druid2/Monk1 isn't bad at all. 15AC unarmored vs 16 with Studded Armor/Shield/Dex14, Quarterstaff is +5 for D8+3(+4 for D8+2 without Shillelagh) with a +4 D4+2 bonus attack. All Wildshape forms from then on will have +3-5 AC.

    Only delays Druid Casting and abilities by one level and level 20 not unlimited Wildshape which is a bummer at lvl 20, but before that it isn't bad at all.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Druid Multiclassing - an addendum (WIP)

    Quote Originally Posted by tieren View Post
    Pretty sure he meant "sacred flame"
    Ahhh...great, thanks.
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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Druid Multiclassing - an addendum (WIP)

    @ tieren: Thanks for clearing up Sacred Flame bit!
    Iím afraid triple-classing and going beyond dips isnít going to be in the multiclass guide. Iím in deep enough as it is!
    It sounds an interesting build (I think I might have told you that before?) Do you think you can keep up your damage, compared to a straight ranger? How are you doing keeping your conjured beasties alive?

    @ Fishybugs: Sorry about the confusion. Work in progress and all that.

    @ Zman: Iíll get to the monk pretty soon. In fact, I think itís next one up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    Oh really?

    After all your 'ask the DM' statements its kind of funny to see this statement made so conclusively. It's the *first* thing you should be asking your DM about multiclassing when you're talking druid. Because it's absolutely not conclusive one way or the other.
    Yeah really! It doesnít get much more conclusive than being spelled out in the multiclass rules. Page 164 in PHB, in the table for multiclass proficiencies: "druids will not wear armor or use shields made of metal".

    I like ranger (hunter) 6 --> Druid (land) 14. Goes up to 9th level spell slots, and 7th level spells, after picking up the basics of the ranger class. To be honest though, it's more a magically-focused Ranger than a Druid.
    Ninth level spell slots is nice. Ninth level spells are better! But yeah, rangers can get a lot from taking druid levels, even to the point you mention, where the numbers suggest it should be more druid than ranger. Still plays a lot like a ranger.
    Last edited by hymer; 2015-11-11 at 04:36 AM.
    My D&D 5th ed. Druid Handbook

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    Ogre in the Playground
     
    RangerGuy

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    Default Re: Druid Multiclassing - an addendum (WIP)

    Quote Originally Posted by hymer View Post
    @ tieren: Thanks for clearing up Sacred Flame bit!
    Iím afraid triple-classing and going beyond dips isnít going to be in the multiclass guide. Iím in deep enough as it is!
    It sounds an interesting build (I think I might have told you that before?) Do you think you can keep up your damage, compared to a straight ranger? How are you doing keeping your conjured beasties alive?

    @ Fishybugs: Sorry about the confusion. Work in progress and all that.

    @ Zman: Iíll get to the monk pretty soon. In fact, I think itís next one up.



    Yeah really! It doesnít get much more conclusive than being spelled out in the multiclass rules. Page 164 in PHB, in the table for multiclass proficiencies: "druids will not wear armor or use shields made of metal".



    Ninth level spell slots is nice. Ninth level spells are better! But yeah, rangers can get a lot from taking druid levels, even to the point you mention, where the numbers suggest it should be more druid than ranger. Still plays a lot like a ranger.
    I understand you don't want to get into analyzing triple builds, but I wanted to bring it up to demonstrate that there are ways to incorporate druid levels into other builds that a lot of guide don't go into to, particularly if the character is interested in summons.

    I get the impression more people don't play land druids because of the lack of decent at will damage options, they don't want to be in the back focusing on a control spell and tossing cantrips. However you can take that awesome control casting and stick it into several other builds and get some really neat combos. Some that fit in the nature theme really well (like nature domain clerics, oath of the ancient paladins, and rangers) and some that don't (combine champion fighter and land druid to get an interesting alternative to an eldritch knight).

    Medium armor doesn't have to be a particularly big hindrance. I think most characters with a little bit of work can find some dragon scale mail or a breast plate made of a non metal material (maybe some type of giant insect carapace) which will provide the same protection.

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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Druid Multiclassing - an addendum (WIP)

    I suppose you'll have to chalk it up to my willful stupidity, then.
    My D&D 5th ed. Druid Handbook

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    RangerGuy

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    Default Re: Druid Multiclassing - an addendum (WIP)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    That's nice. But you're proficient in them, and there's no penalty for doing so. So what happens if you do use them? Like I said, ask your DM. It's not clear.
    I have considered that before, that is the lack of a specified penalty.

    Suppose your druid is knocked unconscious and someone puts metal armor on him while he is out cold. He then wakes up wearing metal armor, what is the effect?

    Is he not a druid? Does he not have access to his druid spells or wildshape until he gets it off?

    It seems to be a relic from earlier editions that were more restrictive about a lot of things, alignment requirements for rangers, paladins and druids, etc...

    If I were DM I certainly wouldn't allow a use of wildshape in metal armor, unless perhaps it was to a tiny shape in an effort to escape the armor (I suppose more accurately I wouldn't allow wildshape to affect the armor, so an attempt to shift to something that wouldn't fit in it could be bad). I might also backfire any attempt to use druid magic with a heat metal effect on the armor and call it a natural revulsion to the metal armor.

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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Druid Multiclassing - an addendum (WIP)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    That's nice. But you're proficient in them, and there's no penalty for doing so. So what happens if you do use them? Like I said, ask your DM. It's not clear.
    Proficiency in of itself is not a consideration for equipping armor, it merely removes a set of penalties while equipped (removing a penalty that's active while equipped entails that you must be able to equip the armor in the first place). So proficiency in of itself won't waive any restrictions on equipping armor. Of course, DMs can waive those restrictions.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Druid Multiclassing - an addendum (WIP)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    Sure. But from one perspective, there aren't any mechanical penalties or restrictions on equipping metal armor. At best it's an RP restriction. That's where the problem is. And why you have to talk to your DM.
    It can be mechanical strictly speak, allowing higher AC armor. Whether that breaks Druid balance is dubious, but I'm not arguing for or against it. Regardless of the reason, it does require expressly revoking a PHB ruling. Obviously that's not out of the question, but it's there.

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    Zombie

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    Default Re: Druid Multiclassing - an addendum (WIP - latest up is warlock)

    one could grab 3 levels of warlock for that familiar. Grab a little Fey Dryad to follow you around and help you out.

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    HalflingRangerGuy

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    Default Re: Druid Multiclassing - an addendum (WIP - latest up is warlock)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    The PHB just says a Druid will not. It doesn't say cannot, or what happen if the Druid does. Many players and DMs look at "will" or "will not" as a player decision, and therefore see the PHBs statement as a recommendation, not a mechanical restriction.
    Going through the basic rule, because searching is easy:
    - "Those who share your religion will support you (but only you) at a modest lifestyle."
    - "They will shield you from the law or anyone else searching for you, though they will not risk their lives for you."
    - "First, you decide what perceivable circumstance will trigger your reaction."
    All the use of "will" in the rule part are thing that happen, not RP choices.

    I can understand someone can force a druid to wear some metal armor, but he will remove it as soon as he can because he "will not wear it".


    Can you find a rule use of "will" that shows a choice?
    Last edited by bid; 2015-11-11 at 11:34 PM.
    Trust but verify. There's usually a reason why I believe you can't do something.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Druid Multiclassing - an addendum (WIP - latest up is warlock)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    The PHB just says a Druid will not. It doesn't say cannot, or what happen if the Druid does. Many players and DMs look at "will" or "will not" as a player decision, and therefore see the PHBs statement as a recommendation, not a mechanical restriction.

    Personally I think it's meant to be a RP restriction just like a Paladins oath has, and it's just as binding. But I'm not everyone, and this has been argued a lot. And the Paladins oath is often used as a counter example ... It has a mechanical penalty for violating it. So therefore that's an example of a RP recommendation that's also a mechanical restriction, unlike Druids and armor. I'm playing devils advocate for a position that's not mine because I came to understand it's not as clear as I originally thought. That's why ... ask your DM.
    I agree overall. My admittedly nitpicky point was that A) proficiency has nothing to do with what you can or can't equip, B) it does have mechanical implications, namely restricting (not necessarily preventing) access to higher AC, and C) equipping metal, while not diametrically, requires opposing the PHB.

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    Goblin

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    Default Re: Druid Multiclassing - an addendum (WIP - latest up is warlock)

    Here's the question then. If a fighter that wears plate multi with druid does he just suddenly just stop wearing it? Now to give my success story (thus far) with my druid dipping.

    His current levels are moon druid 2/ rogue 2/ monk 1/ goo warlock 1. All for mechanical adv and flavor. Also rolled well. He can still speak with party in beast mode. Fastest thing around. Decent beast ac. Sneak attack unarmed and beast attacks. These are some of the "ask your DM" stipulations that have melded together for an incredibly versatile character and have not in my experience broken the game. been in an ongoing game that seems like it will reach lvl 20 his ending levels will be moon druid 10/ monk 2/ AT rogue 6/ goo warlock 2. The only downside i see is spells however the spells he uses save his hp by prevention or recovery or buffing. And when it comes to melee damage outside of beast shape I just use my green flame blade+sneak atk+sheliliegh staff (that's right any monk weapon)+hex so when it comes to damage i dont think i fall too far behind. What do yall think? Its also worth mentioning that dm allows me to customize spell list (flavor/rp reasons within reason subject to approval) and given me a longer lasting more powerful 1 st level mage hand so i can operate completely in beast form not needing to rely on anyone to open the door. So far I've operated as scout and skirmisher.

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    RangerGuy

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    Default Re: Druid Multiclassing - an addendum (WIP - latest up is warlock)

    Quote Originally Posted by bid View Post
    I can understand someone can force a druid to wear some metal armor, but he will remove it as soon as he can because he "will not wear it".
    Of course an ancillary question becomes what constitutes "metal" armor. I have seen heated discussion about whether or not a druid will wear studded leather or whether leather armor itself has metal buckles or rivets.

    I personally believe some metal on the armor does not make it "metal armor", such that buckles and fasteners don't disqualify leather, and I am even okay with studded leather. If a particular DM thinks studded is too metallic maybe they can allow studs of bone or chitin or stone to allow the armor type.

    I am hoping I can find some non-metallic medium armor, perhaps dragon scale mail or even better a breastplate made from a monster exoskeleton (maybe an ankheg or similar).

    I don't think it too outlandish to even picture some very rare magic plate mail made from iron wood or something, though I wouldn't expect to just come across that.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Druid dipping - an addendum

    Just a little note. Action Surge is once per short rest making it 3-4 times as good as you are representing in your guide in the imaginary "standard adventuring day" of 2-3 short rests/long rest.

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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Druid dipping - an addendum

    @ HoarsHalberd: Thank you! I'll fix that immediately.
    My D&D 5th ed. Druid Handbook

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    Default Re: Druid dipping - an addendum

    Love the images!
    "As I see it, part of the art of being a hero is knowing when you don't need to be one anymore."

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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Druid dipping - an addendum

    Quote Originally Posted by Ardantis View Post
    Love the images!
    Thank you!
    My D&D 5th ed. Druid Handbook

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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Druid dipping - an addendum

    Very cool and a real professional job. Perhaps we have to-be game designer here. Also if you are designing I want a Merlin type character, how do I make that? That wizard picture caught my eye, very cool.

    Now, is it really legal for monk and barbarian unarmored defense to transfer. Some allow it and some don't, has there been a consensus or errata.
    Last edited by djreynolds; 2015-11-15 at 07:12 AM. Reason: addition

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Druid dipping - an addendum

    Natural armor is another AC calculation, so it doesn't stack with mage armor or unarmored defense. So that's one thing we can know that we do know.

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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Druid dipping - an addendum

    @ djreynolds: Thanks for the praise. As for designing, I'm afraid druid 18/wiz2(div) is the best I can do. Or, if you're willing to give up spells in wild shape,druid17/wiz3, which would give you access to a bunch of interesting and/or useful second level spells. The whole thing would also depend very much on how you interpret Merlin, of course.
    As for the question, nothing as official as errata has been given on Unarmored Defense in Wild Shape, so far as I know. The Sage thinks it should be allowed. But your DM trumps the Sage, and is the correct person to ask.
    As for my personal opinion, it makes perfect gamist sense that it should work. But I don't think it makes narrative or simulationist sense for a finely honed humanoid fighting style's defensive benefit to function at perfect efficiency in so widely disparate shapes.

    @ Zalabim: From what little I've seen, the Sage has mentioned natural armor, but hasn't explained what exactly it is, or how it operates. You've found something better?
    My D&D 5th ed. Druid Handbook

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Druid dipping - an addendum

    It's in the DMG's description of Natural Armor, or maybe the MM has that. Either way, the way the book says what natural armor even is makes it clear. I'll edit in the page and quote when I'm not at work.

    DMG 276, yes. "A monster that doesn't wear armor might have natural armor, in which case it has an AC equal to 10 + its Dexterity modifier + its natural armor bonus."
    Last edited by Zalabim; 2015-11-16 at 11:25 AM.

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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Druid dipping - an addendum

    Quote Originally Posted by Zalabim View Post
    It's in the DMG's description of Natural Armor, or maybe the MM has that. Either way, the way the book says what natural armor even is makes it clear. I'll edit in the page and quote when I'm not at work.
    You mean DMG p. 276, under 'Determine an Appropriate AC'? It does say that this is one among several methods you can use to find the AC for a monster you're creating. But is it meant to be a rule on wild shapes, too? Does it have anything to do with PC creation, or is it just for monster creation? The DM could easily go either way on that, I'm afraid.
    But it is the closest I've seen so far as an explanation of what role Natural Armor plays, and at least it heavily suggests that the intention is for Natural Armor to not be cumulative with any other base AC calculation.
    Last edited by hymer; 2015-11-16 at 08:03 AM.
    My D&D 5th ed. Druid Handbook

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    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Druid dipping - an addendum

    I realize I am rather late in responding to this, but something caught my attention.

    In the discussion of whether or not to make a Druid/Monk, you mentioned:
    "Do you throw in Natural Armor as a bonus for free? Or does it cause complications? Is an ankylosaurus unarmoured? Is a bear? Mechanically they're the same, but it may not be quite so straightforward."

    Now, if we're assuming that all creatures w/ Fur and scales and what-not have Natural Armor, then there's no need to mention it...ever. Except, it is mentioned for the Earth Elemental. It has an AC of 17 with (natural armor) next to it. This makes me think that most animals do not have Natural Armor, or else why would it be specifically mentioned for the Earth Elem.?

    So, would this mean Unarmored Defenses would work so long as it does not specify that Natural Armor has a part in the creature's AC?

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    Goblin

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    Default Re: Druid dipping - an addendum

    I think it's been said before possibly many times possibly within this thread you use better of critters or 10+dex+wis. Using critters dex and your wis

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    HalflingRangerGuy

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    Default Re: Druid dipping - an addendum

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhia-Persephone View Post
    So, would this mean Unarmored Defenses would work so long as it does not specify that Natural Armor has a part in the creature's AC?
    Wouldn't monk AC always be 10 + beast Dex + char Wis anyway? Or are you saying specifying Natural Armor forbids you from using that AC?
    Trust but verify. There's usually a reason why I believe you can't do something.

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    Default Re: Druid dipping - an addendum

    Quote Originally Posted by bid View Post
    Wouldn't monk AC always be 10 + beast Dex + char Wis anyway? Or are you saying specifying Natural Armor forbids you from using that AC?
    you can you natural armor OR unarmored defense in wild shape.

    http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/01/14/...apeshift-form/

    If you multiclass as bladesinger, you can add bladesong bonus to natural armor.

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