Mythos Homebrew Discussion III: Grievous Imbalance Is A Feature

[Dimmet]

What happened to Mythos? I can't find a post from Xefas during this year, there's so many gorgeous projects going unfinished, and plenty of things could use more Mythos that'd make their way onto the Random Mythos gdocs.

This is my favorite homebrew subsystem, and the flavor and themes involved are practically unique in D&D, the only way I can really get interested in playing in campaigns these days. I need more. Have I been missing new things?

[khadgar567]

What happened to Mythos? I can't find a post from Xefas during this year, there's so many gorgeous projects going unfinished, and plenty of things could use more Mythos that'd make their way onto the Random Mythos gdocs.

This is my favorite homebrew subsystem, and the flavor and themes involved are practically unique in D&D, the only way I can really get interested in playing in campaigns these days. I need more. Have I been missing new things?

well mythos comunity is kinda silent on how to continue and there is the bit of pathfinder playtest situaton going on like are we gonna convert to pathfinder 2e or stick with sinking ship of 3.5.

[Dimmet]

well mythos comunity is kinda silent on how to continue and there is the bit of pathfinder playtest situaton going on like are we gonna convert to pathfinder 2e or stick with sinking ship of 3.5.

That's terrible to hear... The advent of 5e, and Paizo's apparent attempt to do the same marketing ploy has been a huge hit to 3.5/3.PF. But my groups and I aren't moving on, and Mythos is honestly the place I've been looking to for material to interest me since I vastly prefer the 3.X system. The kind of thinking these new systems seem to engender doesn't lend well to the flavor and potential of these class ideas.

[Lanth Sor]

In general like a large portion of the changes that come with PF2, that said, Skills are not one of them. I like the trained, expert, master, legend system but killing skp was dumb.

The feat focus is really in keeping with mythos mentality. I think we should get away form granting feats for mythos, granting the benefits they give works well, but then we should note it counts as having the equivalent feat, kind of like how stone power counts as power attack.

[Gideon Falcon]

The difficulty I had was just running out of ideas for the classes I had, meaning that without other people active in the thread, I didn't have any input to make more material.

[Vauron]

Personally, I largely dropped out due to two factors. First, my interest in 3.5 in general waned. Secondly, I'd come to feel it was kinda silly to keep trying to stuff an exp based system into the very level based Dnd.

Honestly I'd personally think it'd work better if Mythos material dropped levels entirely. Just set it up so that you get access to new tiers of mythos based on the amount of experience spent on mythos.

[Morphic tide]

Personally, I largely dropped out due to two factors. First, my interest in 3.5 in general waned. Secondly, I'd come to feel it was kinda silly to keep trying to stuff an exp based system into the very level based Dnd.

Honestly I'd personally think it'd work better if Mythos material dropped levels entirely. Just set it up so that you get access to new tiers of mythos based on the amount of experience spent on mythos.

One of my thoughts was to actually convert it into a directly GP based system, balancing against magic items by cost instead of slot like Incarnum, with some abilities costing Mythos points to use that are then balanced against similarly-costed consumables. Furthermore, a central issue of Mythos's point-based nature is that, for one, the points are too vague in how you get them. As I've said before, determining lack of benefit is wildly impractical, but determining inefficient benefit is relatively easy. Another issue is that the nearly total reliance on Mythos functions turns them into a bad kind of list-based class, because Xefas' own advice was to put necessary number fixes into those chosen features, resulting in needing nearly every option to stand entirely on its own as a viable feature. Which rapidly inflates the power and versatility of the classes to the point that they can't "play down" to t3 without extensive game knowledge, unlike Wizards and Clerics who need extensive game knowledge to fully play at t1.

A restructuring of Mythos, as a subsystem, that I'd like more would be to make it so that highly redundant Mythos are more "condensed" into one per Mythos level, if not even fewer, with subset functions being repurchase options. For example, Automatic Strike from the Bellator (if I recall the names correctly) could instead be a repurchase option for each Discipline-Mythos that has good use for it without breaking things. This means you can keep it out of Divine Spirit to avoid massive health recovery (it's too trivial for the magnitude of value), while keeping it for Desert Wind to let you sword-beam all day, every day. Then you can have each Discipline be more differentiated, with passives scaling with repurchases for each Discipline, while letting you give fitting Disciplines to non-Bellator Anthols without giving them unfitting Disciplines as a side effect, like the Teramacht getting Tiger Claw.

By compacting a lot more of the building-upon into repurchase options, we can get the lists down to the point we could afford to fairly easily give heavily overlapping class lists while also having closely-related effects become significantly more diverse by having room for such redundant Mythos being separate. Shadowcaster's formatting can help with this, letting you give fancy names to the repurchase options while still letting you confine the "top-level", rather open-ended, Mythos to a manageable number of "competency areas". Granted, this leads to description complications because you can't neatly explain what the Mythos actually does, but given the nature of Mythos as an expressly narrative-inspired system, I feel that nonmechanical descriptions fit better anyways, regardless of the structure of the system. Having Mythos map so closely to spells just feels wrong, as they're supposed to be narrative abilities, yet they spiral out into extensively-described narrow-use (for one selection of them) abilities that behave quite like the spells they're meant to be a viable alternative to.

[khadgar567]

One of my thoughts was to actually convert it into a directly GP based system, balancing against magic items by cost instead of slot like Incarnum, with some abilities costing Mythos points to use that are then balanced against similarly-costed consumables. Furthermore, a central issue of Mythos's point-based nature is that, for one, the points are too vague in how you get them. As I've said before, determining lack of benefit is wildly impractical, but determining inefficient benefit is relatively easy. Another issue is that the nearly total reliance on Mythos functions turns them into a bad kind of list-based class, because Xefas' own advice was to put necessary number fixes into those chosen features, resulting in needing nearly every option to stand entirely on its own as a viable feature. Which rapidly inflates the power and versatility of the classes to the point that they can't "play down" to t3 without extensive game knowledge, unlike Wizards and Clerics who need extensive game knowledge to fully play at t1.

A restructuring of Mythos, as a subsystem, that I'd like more would be to make it so that highly redundant Mythos are more "condensed" into one per Mythos level, if not even fewer, with subset functions being repurchase options. For example, Automatic Strike from the Bellator (if I recall the names correctly) could instead be a repurchase option for each Discipline-Mythos that has good use for it without breaking things. This means you can keep it out of Divine Spirit to avoid massive health recovery (it's too trivial for the magnitude of value), while keeping it for Desert Wind to let you sword-beam all day, every day. Then you can have each Discipline be more differentiated, with passives scaling with repurchases for each Discipline, while letting you give fitting Disciplines to non-Bellator Anthols without giving them unfitting Disciplines as a side effect, like the Teramacht getting Tiger Claw.

By compacting a lot more of the building-upon into repurchase options, we can get the lists down to the point we could afford to fairly easily give heavily overlapping class lists while also having closely-related effects become significantly more diverse by having room for such redundant Mythos being separate. Shadowcaster's formatting can help with this, letting you give fancy names to the repurchase options while still letting you confine the "top-level", rather open-ended, Mythos to a manageable number of "competency areas". Granted, this leads to description complications because you can't neatly explain what the Mythos actually does, but given the nature of Mythos as an expressly narrative-inspired system, I feel that nonmechanical descriptions fit better anyways, regardless of the structure of the system. Having Mythos map so closely to spells just feels wrong, as they're supposed to be narrative abilities, yet they spiral out into extensively-described narrow-use (for one selection of them) abilities that behave quite like the spells they're meant to be a viable alternative to.

agreed with morphic tide here. we are kinda need base rules for mythos system to grow properly. i know we are kinda draw from various works ( mainly exalted). But without core rules for system every mythow brewer kinda brews their own rules so we cant properly multiclass from core classes or cross class in mythos my base idea is kinda use spheres of power/ might as chassis where each mythos class has distinct progression of 10, 15 or 20 mythos talents to grow in to. This way we can kinda intruduce mythos variants of any class by patching them to their mythos progressions. It also helps magical side of the mythos creation by giving us ability to barrier the realy dangerous talents from particular classes.

[Morphic tide]

agreed with morphic tide here. we are kinda need base rules for mythos system to grow properly. i know we are kinda draw from various works ( mainly exalted). But without core rules for system every mythow brewer kinda brews their own rules so we cant properly multiclass from core classes or cross class in mythos my base idea is kinda use spheres of power/ might as chassis where each mythos class has distinct progression of 10, 15 or 20 mythos talents to grow in to. This way we can kinda intruduce mythos variants of any class by patching them to their mythos progressions. It also helps magical side of the mythos creation by giving us ability to barrier the realy dangerous talents from particular classes.

My thoughts are actually to keep the trading of WBL for more features, but confine the segments of the class's available features with high-density Mythos. Kinda like if Shadowcaster chose Paths instead of individual Mysteries. Like, one Mythos for each Discipline from Tome of Battle, then you spend Mythos Points to build out the Mythos abilities for that Discipline, gaining bonuses related to it based on investment into that one thing (granted, I actually generally dislike the various direct replication Mythos. Doesn't really feel like something base classes of a subsystem should have). One of the advantages of this is that you can more easily permit large chunks of capabilities to be shared and have the extremely broad capabilities on the classes without causing them to become t2/t1 by default because you can cherry pick a large number of options all made to be independently viable because they need to be, otherwise you're too able to get a character wildly below their expected power level.

The Anakitos and Teramacht could share a fairly significant number of high-level Mythos that fall under the idea of retribution, as that is a concept which fits both "themes" fairly well, while the Bellator and Efevreti can share crafting Mythos for "basic" weapons and armor, as such abilities fit both general concepts (anything goes martial combatant and a crazed creator), albeit in different ways. And those differences come from the other Mythos they choose and, extremely importantly, baseline class features. Raw numeric needs could then be handled by the scaling benefits of investing in various Mythos and the baseline features, entirely doing away with the painfully build-intensive Excellency mechanic. With this, you need just one or two Mythos per concept, as each Mythos has most of the needed mechanical functions.

The result is very similar to a setup I tried to get to work based on the various "build-a-class" systems, such as the Trisocciate (I'm the one who got it locked for necromancy!) and Split Soul, where you essentially grab a relatively small number of relatively large areas of competence, but instead of being a level-based system, it's GP-based with a level lock. Instead of gear or consumables, you can spend WBL on character-internal power, with fluff that causes high-level characters that keep doing it at the highest rate they can get away with to passively break settings by dumping vast sums of wealth into various charities and ego-inflating actions to internalize the power. This can be useful for DMs, as a near-Epic Anthol ends up throwing hundreds of thousands of GP into industries normally restricted to purchases and donations of a few hundred. That wealth goes somewhere, and if the DM has plots with shady merchants, those merchants get large sums of extra GP to spend.

A side effect is that stuff like the Anakitos' [Purity] mechanic would have to be generalized so that multiple classes could make use of such Mythos. This, in my opinion, can be used to get the fluff and mechanics more integrated by having a mechanic that specifically promotes Anthol behavior being more similar to their associated Titan or Lawbringer. Of course, you can grab Mythos that ignore such confines to free your character from similarities, letting you play as a Teramacht who behaves little differently from a payback-focused Anakitos. But the most wide-reaching, most setting-shattering powers are locked to that mechanic (and other RP-confining mechanics), so if you want to eat The Sun and burn half the multiverse as a Teramacht, you have to act like The Monster.

[Lanth Sor]

Hadn't thought of rehashing the costs I LIKE IT!!!.

I am working an a class that is based on class features that work based on meeting a goal like the story feats of pathfinder. Goal completion requires at least 2 HD per class level be observing you while performing the goal.

Twin Blade Discipline
- Prerequisite: Dex 13, BAB +1
- Benefit: When wielding 2 or more weapons you can make 1 attack with each extra weapon per attack granted by your base attack bonus. You take a -2 penalty per weapon past the first used.
- Goal: Land 1 more attack then your base attack bonsus allows in a round 1000 times.
- Completion Boon: Damage form each attack is totaled before damage reduction is applied. Each consecutive hit deals one more damage then the previous hit in the same round.
- Special: For the purpose of meeting prerequisites this functions as Two Weapon Fighting. Starting at +6 bab it also counts as Improved Two Weapon Fighting. Starting at +11 bab it also counts as Greater Two Weapon Fighting. Starting at +16 bab it also counts as Perfect Two Weapon Fighting.

[Lanth Sor]

My current class will be utilizing the developments we've discussed here.

[Rogthnor]

Has anyone played the 5e mythos classes? Also does anyone know if we'll be getting a 5e Jagganoth?

[ThreadNecro5]

Oh, this is still active.

I've a couple ideas in the works and had begun the Wall of Flesh epic level prestige class. And the 'Mythic Nothing' is hard to write for. I know what I want it to be in the end, just trying to get it there.

One idea I had but cant think of a good way to do is a mythos class based on the idea of 'the hero that sees themselves become the villain'. Or a 'Mythic Quest' if you will, imagine a class where the character begins as a classic 'the antagonist burned my hometown' type and grows over time into a classical hero that assembles a group of allies (buff other characters?) and gathers the magical McGuffins, passes the ancient trials, and sets out to slay the dark lord. Only after that the mythos must keep going and without a villain to face the hero becomes their own inverse (Shintai) who becomes the antagonist of more members of the class their acts inspire against them while those new hero's become a foe for the story as the 'villain protagonist' character. Obviously the fluff adapts around the members of the class's alignments appropriate so the evil tyrant grows to become a paragon on justice and leading their former second in command to oppose them. As I said I don't quite know what to do with it so if anyone out there is inspired feel free to use any of the ideas here for your own work.

Another idea of mine is the 'Mythic Blessed One' someone chosen by some god or similar entity/force to work in their name and embody their nature. Think Greek legends or Grithith from Berserk. I had another example but I forget the character's name. An elf from the Warhammer fantasy/Age of Sigmar setting.

[Inevitability]

So whoever is still reading this: here's this concept I had.

Basically, a Mythic Pacifist. The Mythos's origin is a Lawgiver of guidance, self-sacrifice, and most of all: utter pacifism, who ended up getting destroyed by the Monster at some point in time. When the dead titans were used to create the world, tiny bits of the lawgiver were also included, giving rise to a rare but occasionally emerging Mythos.

Some design ideas I have so far:

-Mainly wisdom-based, with side roles for charisma and constitution.
-The 'gold to Mythos' conversion is based on donating goods or money to the poor.
-Wisdom to AC while wearing no armor.
-Diehard as a bonus feat at level 3.
-Wisdom as a substitute for Dexterity when determining Reflex saves.

A few example Exceptional Mythos:

Spoiler

Show

First-Principle Weapon Style
Prerequisite: -
[Mercy]

You have mastered a fighting style characterized by calm, deliberate strikes and nonlethal takedowns, allowing you to end battles without ending lives.

You gain Subduing Strike and Intuitive Attack as bonus feats, and you ignore the Exalted nature of those feats. You also gain Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat.

Basic
Ascetic Battlemaster: When dealing nonlethal damage with a simple weapon, you can substitute your wisdom modifier for your strength modifier when determining damage.

Blade-Breaking Redeemer: You gain Improved Sunder as a bonus feat. When attempting to sunder a weapon, you ignore any hardness it may possess. If you destroy a weapon with a sunder attempt, the weapon's value in gold pieces is granted to you as mythos points.

Enlightened Arrow Source: Your ranged attacks no longer provoke attacks of opportunity. Furthermore, you gain Precise Shot and Point-Blank Shot as bonus feats.

Live-By-The-Sword Punisher: You gain Improved Disarm as a bonus feat. If you successfully disarm a creature of a weapon, you can immediately make an attack against it with the weapon you just took, assuming you have enough free hands to use it. You are considered to be proficient with the weapon when making this attack.

Mercy of the Gentle Hand: You gain Superior Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat, and can make unarmed strikes with any part of your body just as a monk can.

Shooting an Olive Branch: You gain Zen Archery as a bonus feat. Furthermore, you can deal nonlethal damage using ranged weapons with no penalty to your attack roll.

Staff-to-Shield Adaptability: When wielding a simple melee weapon in two hands, you gain a +3 shield bonus to AC.

Violence-Ending Jab: You gain Stunning Fist and Extra Stunning as bonus feats.

Advanced:
Manifold Paths to Peace: You gain a basic manifestation of this Mythos that you do not already possess.


Self-Sacrificing Stigmata Receiver
Prerequisite: -
[Martyrdom]

As a swift action, you can touch a living creature and transfer some of its wounds to yourself. The creature heals a number of hit points up to (your constitution bonus times your Eirinistis level), with the exact amount decided by you. You then take the amount healed as damage. This damage ignores temporary hit points, Shield Other, Share Pain, or any other effect that would reduce the amount of damage you would take. It bypasses regeneration and all other effects that would turn it into nonlethal damage. This ability is not based on positive or negative energy. A creature with Tomb-Tainted Soul may still be healed by this effect, and an Eirinistis with that feat would still be damaged.

It is possible for the damage healed to exceed your current hit points.

For example: during a tough battle a 7th-level Eirinistis with 18 constitution is at -8 HP. They are conscious (thanks to their Diehard feat), and on their turn move over to a wounded Anakitos ally. They activate this ability, choosing to heal their ally for the maximum amount of 28 hit points. The Anakitos regains 28 hit points while the Eirinistis takes that much damage. The Eirinistis is now at -36 HP, and barring extraordinary circumstances (such as a Delay Death spell), dies.

[Rogthnor]

Anyone know if xefas is still frequenting the forums?

[Morphic tide]

Anyone know if xefas is still frequenting the forums?

His last post was in 2017.

[Lanth Sor]

Sometimes you can catch him on the Mythos Discord

[Imbalance]

Grievous? Why, I never!

[Rogthnor]

So I haven't formatted it yet for the forum, but I just finished my first pass at a Mythos class, and I could use some feedback.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...it?usp=sharing


Its complete, atm, but it could definitely use some help since I haven't played 3.5 in a while, and might need some expansions

[Lanth Sor]

Ill add it to the compendium

[Rogthnor]

It now has a page!

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...5#post24188555

Could use some feedback, especially on what tier to put some of these mythos in

[Kymme]

Okay so, status report.

Xefas has posted a totally revamped Olethrofex and the first version of the Cynosure over on the Mythos Discord. This happened a while ago.

Also, I've just posted a mythos class to the forum called the Dysoikos. It's about playing a house. Check it out!